NationStates Jolt Archive

You've all seen some of the photos.

http://images.salon.com/news/abu_ghraib/2006/03/14/chapter_4/4_18.jpg

The actions depicted in them leave an indelible mark on the US in world opinion. They show horrific abuses of helpless prisoners. Men and women physically and sexually abused, treated like animals. And until now, we've only seen a very small number of the photos, and none of the videos.

Salon.com has obtained both and has published them at their website. I can't link directly to them (I checked with the mods on this before starting this thread, so don't anyone else go and link to them either), and I don't know that I would if I had the option. Some things I think people just need to search out for themselves.

Salon is behind a subscriber wall, but they often have a day-pass option, where you can watch an ad and get full access. It may require registration as well. But if you go, be mindful that these photos depict graphic violence and in many cases, nudity. The following is a description from the video page:
The first two videos in this series depict a group of naked, hooded detainees who have apparently been forced to masturbate for the camera. The third and fourth videos in the series show three soldiers surrounding a detainee, apparently striking him and otherwise attempting to subdue him, and the same three soldiers directing a group of naked detainees to crouch side by side on their hands and knees. These videos seem to correspond to events depicted by photos in Chapter 6. Videos five through eight depict soldiers providing medical attention to a wounded detainee, an incident that is also documented by photos in Chapter 7. Videos nine through 19 in the series depict a detainee hitting his head against what appears to be a cell door, an incident that is also depicted by the last four photos in Chapter 9.

It would appear that the fight for democracy is being lost.

It's okay...we're the good guys. We're saving the iraqis from torture:rolleyes:

It would appear that the fight for democracy is being lost.

Democracy 0 - Fascism 1

I'm not proud of the subject.

I'm wondering where all the effort shown on this subject was when sadaam and his sons were doing as they pleased-arresting,raping and torturing on a whim, murdering countless men women and children. Mass graves, and lone bodies lying in the desert everywhere.

And this country that has an "indelible mark" against it is the one that captured this bastard alive. He remains intact and in good health. He has the freedom to mock the court his is allowed to speak freely in. And has developed a taste for Doritos as a snack.

Yeah- abu prison is certainly the scourge of the century.

I'm not supporting it in any way, but that guy who was hooked up to the wires was in no real danger. The wires weren't even hot, he wouldn't have been electrocuted had he fallen off the box

Yeah- abu prison is certainly the scourge of the century.

Nope.

Gitmo is.

I'm not proud of the subject.

I'm wondering where all the effort shown on this subject was when sadaam and his sons were doing as they pleased-arresting,raping and torturing on a whim, murdering countless men women and children. Mass graves, and lone bodies lying in the desert everywhere.

And this country that has an "indelible mark" against it is the one that captured this bastard alive. He remains intact and in good health. He has the freedom to mock the court his is allowed to speak freely in. And has developed a taste for Doritos as a snack.

Yeah- abu prison is certainly the scourge of the century.

You mean all the arresting, raping, torturing and murdering that was made possible by the CIA putting Saddam in power, then giving him chemical weapons as well as a carte blanche because Uncle Sam was more scared of the brown-skinned guy wearing the beard and turban?

:rolleyes:

Abu Ghraib isn't the scourge of the century even with your hyperbole, but it's the biggest flashing sign outside of Las Vegas that screams "Hypocrisy" in 32 bit color resolution to the whole wide world.

I'm wondering where all the effort shown on this subject was when sadaam and his sons were doing as they pleased-arresting,raping and torturing on a whim, murdering countless men women and children. Mass graves, and lone bodies lying in the desert everywhere.

The trouble is that when things like this happen, it makes it difficult for the average Iraqi to believe that the USA is any better than Saddam Hussein.

I'm not proud of the subject.

I'm wondering where all the effort shown on this subject was when sadaam and his sons were doing as they pleased-arresting,raping and torturing on a whim, murdering countless men women and children. Mass graves, and lone bodies lying in the desert everywhere.

And this country that has an "indelible mark" against it is the one that captured this bastard alive. He remains intact and in good health. He has the freedom to mock the court his is allowed to speak freely in. And has developed a taste for Doritos as a snack.

Yeah- abu prison is certainly the scourge of the century.
Yes, let us bless ourselves for keeping saddam in good health, while we continue to torture the same citizens we claim to have liberated from his tyrrany.
Oh, and the effort was there. Incase you haven't heard, we're at war atleast partially because of it. A few damn pictures is hardly an "effort"

Hey Nazz...regarding the link you were talking about in the mod forum, would you mind tg-ing it to me since you werent allowed to include it in this thread?

I'm not impressed. The misplaced outrage speaks volumes.

And comparing what- a dozen or so mistreated people to thousands upon thousands of people butchered and murdered ? Did any US soldiers play "catch the baby on a bayonette?" Any wives raped and killed by US soldiers in front of their husbands to make him talk?

Nah.

Keep wasting time on the prison story. As if thats representative of all US soldiers and our way of doing things.

you'll only impres your own kind. thankfully.

Nope.

Gitmo is.


there are prisons in the Bahamas that are far worse. with Americans in them for bogus drug charges.

No too many people will be researching and posting about that though.

I'm not impressed. The misplaced outrage speaks volumes.

And comparing what- a dozen or so mistreated people to thousands upon thousands of people butchered and murdered ? Did any US soldiers play "catch the baby on a bayonette?" Any wives raped and killed by US soldiers in front of their husbands to make him talk?

Nah.

Keep wasting time on the prison story. As if thats representative of all US soldiers and our way of doing things.

you'll only impres your own kind. thankfully.
well over a dozen between the well known Abu Gharib, and lesser know issues, but increasingly gaining a spot in journalism, Guantanamo are STILL NOT OKAY!. We entered on the moral high horse, and then turn around and do the same thing we are supposed to be fighting against. Just because we aren't playing "catch the baby on the bayonette does not make out actions excusable. And perhaps it isn't indicative of all of our troops (and no, I don't think it is). That still doesn't mean we should just allow it to happen.
You are so outraged that Saddam did it, but are okay with us doing it.
I was outraged when Saddam did it, and am outraged that we continue to do it.
Who has the misplaced outrage (or, more correctly, a lack there of)?

I'm not proud of the subject.

I'm wondering where all the effort shown on this subject was when sadaam and his sons were doing as they pleased-arresting,raping and torturing on a whim, murdering countless men women and children. Mass graves, and lone bodies lying in the desert everywhere.

Big difference. Sadams government was not OUR governement. He did not represent the average American and as such the average American had no control over what he did. But the US government IS our government and represents us. What they do, they do in our name. That is what makes this worse *for us* than what Sadam did.

No one is disputing that what Sadam was horrific. But what he did didn't represent us.

.

Democracy 0 - Fascism 1

Actually Italy and Germany got their asses whooped in WWII so I think it's closer to 2 to 1.

Actually Italy and Germany got their asses whooped in WWII so I think it's closer to 2 to 1.

But somewhere after World War 2 Democracy left the field due to serious injury and coming in to replace... Realpolitik and "America! Fuck Yeah!!"

I'm not impressed. The misplaced outrage speaks volumes.

And comparing what- a dozen or so mistreated people to thousands upon thousands of people butchered and murdered ? Did any US soldiers play "catch the baby on a bayonette?" Any wives raped and killed by US soldiers in front of their husbands to make him talk?
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,401899,00.html

This article makes a good case, I think, for why this is such a problem. Because while you're here ranting on about pinko commie bastards, the people around the world aren't even surprised anymore when things like this happen.

But somewhere after World War 2 Democracy left the field due to serious injury and coming in to replace... Realpolitik and "America! Fuck Yeah!!"

At least it went out on a high note.

Hey Nazz...regarding the link you were talking about in the mod forum, would you mind tg-ing it to me since you werent allowed to include it in this thread?
There's enough info in the opening post to get you there. It's not that I'm trying to be a pain, but I don't want to do anything that might be seen as trying to get around the rules the mods set.

There's enough info in the opening post to get you there. It's not that I'm trying to be a pain, but I don't want to do anything that might be seen as trying to get around the rules the mods set.

Oh. I thought it was ok to tg things that might be inappropriate for the actual forum. Thanks anyway.

Oh. I thought it was ok to tg things that might be inappropriate for the actual forum. Thanks anyway.

Google - Salon exclusive: The Abu Ghraib files

I'm not impressed. The misplaced outrage speaks volumes.
There is nothing misplaced about it.

And comparing what- a dozen or so mistreated people to thousands upon thousands of people butchered and murdered ?
Hang on, who was comparing these two things? I believe the person making this useless (given the context) comparison would be you.

Did any US soldiers play "catch the baby on a bayonette?"
I dont know, and neither do you.

Any wives raped and killed by US soldiers in front of their husbands to make him talk?
I dont know and neither do you.

Keep wasting time on the prison story. As if thats representative of all US soldiers and our way of doing things.
Who suggested that was the case?
Personally I do believe it is somewhat representitive of the Bush Administration and a certain faction within the US government (and their way of doing things).
Dont kid yourself that this was just a few soldiers gone wild. With the Bush administration the underhand and the reprehensible are part of a pattern of conduct not some fluke abberation.