NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2081496,00.html

Holland launches the immigrant quiz
Nicola Smith, Amsterdam



TWO MEN kissing in a park and a topless woman bather are featured in a film that will be shown to would-be immigrants to the Netherlands.
The reactions of applicants — including Muslims — will be examined to see whether they are able to accept the country’s liberal attitudes.



From this Wednesday, the DVD — which also shows the often crime-ridden ghettos where poorer immigrants might end up living — will form part of an entrance test, in Dutch, covering the language and culture of Holland.

Those sitting the test will be expected to identify William of Orange and to know which country Crown Princess Maxima comes from (Argentina) and whether hitting women and female circumcision are permitted.

Muslim leaders in Holland say the film is offensive. “It really is a provocation aimed to limit immigration. It has nothing to do with the rights of homosexuals. Even Dutch people don’t want to see that,” said Abdou Menebhi, the Moroccan-born director of Emcemo, an organisation that helps immigrants to settle.

He added: “They are trying to find every pretext to show that people should not come to the Netherlands because they are fundamentalist or not emancipated. They confront people with these things and then judge them afterwards.”

Famile Arslan, 34, an immigration lawyer of Turkish origin, agreed. “I have lived here for 30 years and have never been witness to two men kissing in the park. So why are they confronting people with that?” she said.

She accused the government of preaching tolerance about civil rights while targeting non-westerners with harsh and discriminatory immigration curbs.

The new test — the first of its kind in the world — marks another step in the transformation of Holland from one of Europe’s most liberal countries to the one cracking down hardest on immigration.

Rita Verdonk, the immigration minister known as Iron Rita, has introduced compulsory integration classes, higher age limits for marriage to people from abroad and the removal of residency permits if immigrants commit petty crimes. She has also talked of banning the burqa.

The measures were prompted in part by outrage over the 2004 murder of Theo Van Gogh, who had made a film about the oppression of women in Muslim communities.

Applicants will sit the exam at one of 138 embassies around the world. They will answer 15 minutes of questions and those who pass the first stage will have to complete two “citizenship” tests over five years and swear a pledge of allegiance to Holland and its constitution.

The centre-right government of Jan Peter Balkenende, the prime minister, believes the tests will provide an objective way of assessing the suitability of applicants by gauging how well prepared they are to make the transition to Dutch life and their willingness to integrate.

Critics complain that people living in the mountains of Morocco or rural villages in Pakistan will not be able to make the long journey to cities for Dutch language lessons. According to Instituut Oranje, a Dutch language school, someone with a low level of education would require 250 hours of tuition, costing £1,200, to pass the tests.

The total bill of £1,495 — including £55 for a preparatory test pack and DVD and £240 for the exam — makes the process unaffordable for many.

Dirk Nieuwboer, a Dutch journalist based in Istanbul, said the multiple-choice cultural test included a question about how to behave in a cafe if two men at the next table started kissing. “There was another question about which former Dutch colony a particular spice came from,” said Nieuwboer. “Most Dutch people don’t know these things.”

However, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, a socialist from the parliament’s immigration committee, said the film had been created to help prepare people for “open-minded” attitudes on issues such as homosexuality. “We have lots of homo-discrimination, especially by Muslim youngsters who harass gay men and women on the streets. It is an issue here.”

A spokeswoman for Verdonk said an edited version of the DVD would be available for showing in Middle Eastern countries such as Iran where it would be illegal to possess images of homosexuality.

Didn't they have any actual news? This shit is almost a year old.

I don't think it really matters.

This is the same crap they try to pull in one or two German states...a special "test" trying to test whether citizenship applicants were really agreeable.

AFAIK, it's aimed at Muslims, and it asks the most demeaning questions...not in the least questions that most of us would fail as well if we were really honest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4717568.stm

Well, it's good that the people who want to come here know what they can expect.

Well, it's good that the people who want to come here know what they can expect.
Dumb questions, based on even dumber assumptions?

Incidentally, part two of the "Muslims in Europe"-series of the BBC is about Holland.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4802388.stm

True, a roommate(who is dutch as well) did one of these tests for fun and he failed, getting only like 50% or so. Which was quite high still.

It's somewhere on the internet. Search for Kalou and integration test or something like that :)

But it's true. The times have changed here :(

This is the same crap they try to pull in one or two German states...a special "test" trying to test whether citizenship applicants were really agreeable.

Please do not be dissing my state.

Please do not be dissing my state.
I be dissin' yo' state, dawg. Yo' mountainfolks ain't got nuttin'!

Please do not be dissing my state.Prussia isn't a state any longer.

Excellent!!!:) At least one area in which the Balkenellende cabinet is doing good.

I took that test on the internet, now I'm packing my suitcase because I failed it.:(

I took that test on the internet, now I'm packing my suitcase because I failed it.:(
Wheres the test?

This is the same crap they try to pull in one or two German states...a special "test" trying to test whether citizenship applicants were really agreeable.

AFAIK, it's aimed at Muslims, and it asks the most demeaning questions...not in the least questions that most of us would fail as well if we were really honest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4717568.stm
The Cicero had a rather funny article on it. Grant me a minute to see whether I can find it online, too.
Edit:// Ah, damn. This (http://www.cicero.de/97.php?ress_id=4&item=1004)is supposed to be the article, but they only have the abstract online and not the article itself. Too bad, those were hilarious. They listed all the questions and then gave satirical answers to it.

And I do, of course, take my stand against these tests. There is no questioning that I much prefer my citizens to accept homosexuals and support many other of my values, but they have their right to not agree with me on those, too; and I cannot accept denying 'new' citizens this very same right.

Wheres the test?
clicky (http://www.teleac.nl/nationaleinburgeringtest/), it's in Dutch.

Topography: How long does it take to go by train from Amsterdam to Enschede, without delays?

A: 1 hour
B: 2 hours
C: 3 hours

Cool!!!:) Teleac created the test?

it's aimed at Muslims, and it asks the most demeaning questions
I don't see how any of the questions are 'demeaning'.

European countries have constitutional values that they want to uphold. Letting people (cough-muslims-cough) who don't agree with those values into the country erodes both the countries values and the immigrants. Citizens values have to align with their countries constitutional values, and these tests ensure that thats the case with new immigrants? I fully support these types of tests except for the ridiculous questions, i.e.

Which former Dutch colony does this spice come from?
How long is the trainride from Amsterdam to the other city?

Those are just unnececary.

Topography: How long does it take to go by train from Amsterdam to Enschede, without delays?
Why would one want to go to Enschede? What's there?

This is the same crap they try to pull in one or two German states...a special "test" trying to test whether citizenship applicants were really agreeable.

AFAIK, it's aimed at Muslims, and it asks the most demeaning questions...not in the least questions that most of us would fail as well if we were really honest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4717568.stm
Yeah. It's realy demeaning to try and figure out wether they are pro-honor killings or not. :rolleyes: Geez...what are you a Grüner?

Why would one want to go to Enschede? What's there?
Coffee shops.

I don't see how any of the questions are 'demeaning'.

European countries have constitutional values that they want to uphold. Letting people (cough-muslims-cough) who don't agree with those values into the country erodes both the countries values and the immigrants. Citizens values have to align with their countries constitutional values, and these tests ensure that thats the case with new immigrants? I fully support these types of tests except for the ridiculous questions, i.e.

Which former Dutch colony does this spice come from?
How long is the trainride from Amsterdam to the other city?

Those are just unnececary.

Got to agree with you there, its high time that some sort of system from immigration was imposed, not in any attempt to slow down immigration (the lifeblood of europes future) but to vet who are let in. While i do see it as a veiled attempt to halt further islamic migration into europe i suspect such a measure would garner much public support if presented as thus.

Why would one want to go to Enschede? What's there?
Nothing, it's just to test whether you have a general idea about the size of the country you want to live in.

Nothing, it's just to test whether you have a general idea about the size of the country you want to live in.

Yeah, that and the fact that the train connections to Enschede s*ck :D

Coffee shops.
Mmmm.... coffeeee...
Nothing, it's just to test whether you have a general idea about the size of the country you want to live in.
But in that case it wouldn't be hard to be wrong. For example, I know that Holland is not a big country, but don't know how long the train would take. I guess 1 hour, but it could be 2 hrs. 3 I think is unlikely.

If the answers were more "1 hour" "5 hours" and "16 hours" that would be less unfair.

Mmmm.... coffeeee....
Yes. I think they sell that too.

But in that case it wouldn't be hard to be wrong. For example, I know that Holland is not a big country, but don't know how long the train would take. I guess 1 hour, but it could be 2 hrs. 3 I think is unlikely.

If the answers were more "1 hour" "5 hours" and "16 hours" that would be less unfair.
Well, it doubted between 2 and 3 hours (I guessed 2, which was correct). And with 5 and 16 hours the question would be too simple (although, if you have it wrong, you probably aren't really wanting to live here)

I'm born dutch, raised dutch, eat dutch food, speak dutch and support my country whenever it is needed. For short I'm qualified as dutch.

Yet I scored a 3.8/10 on the test. I believe it is safe to say test is just .... poop. Mainly because the pictures are unclear, the questions are based upon wrong assumptions (i.e. they ask which colony certain spices come from, whereas Holland hasn't had any colonies for over 50 years) and the majority of questions is just bum eyed.

A former class mate of mine, who's parents immigrated from Turkey, scored a 5/10. Accoarding to this test he would be more dutch then me.


In addition I think these test are not neccesairy. If we claim to the the democratic and progressive society we think ourselves to be, we should always be looking for ways to change, if not improve, the constitutional laws and other laws.

My government however has made other mistakes in previous years which cannot be corrected by thses measures. They didn't set clear borders for the people, but instead had a 'gedoog'-policy. About 95% of the crap you see in Holland nowadays is caused by the fact that this policy wasn't inspected and controlled enough. So the police kept warning people instead and arresting or fining them. Teachers kept talking with students while it was obvious they needed disciplining instead.

Of course freedom is a marvellous thing. However, borders are needed as well. If there are no borders, things get out of control, just as you can see in Holland right now.


And one more thing. Even though I don't agree with 99% of the things Rita does, she is the currently the only dutch minister who has balls. And that is a lot to say about a woman.

I don't see how any of the questions are 'demeaning'.

European countries have constitutional values that they want to uphold. Letting people (cough-muslims-cough) who don't agree with those values into the country erodes both the countries values and the immigrants. Citizens values have to align with their countries constitutional values, and these tests ensure that thats the case with new immigrants?

There is a difference between not agreeing with the most basic consitutional values, and disagreeing on different cultural things. With these questionnaires you assume there to be a homogenous answer to those questions by the 'right' citizens, and everyone who doesn't agree with that one not to be fit to be a citizen.

There are many questions on the German one that I don't agree with, as they don't ask the immigrant about fundamental constitutional things, but questions quite of few of the 'upright Christians' or other conservatives might anser in a similar way as your stereotypical 'cough-muslim-cough', such as

"Some parents disagree with their adult daughter marrying a man of e.g. a different faith, or her chosing to do a job they don't like. How would you react if this happened with your daughter?"
- Try thinking of your average Christian woman marrying a black man or *gasp* a Muslim, and/or her wanting to work as a construction worker or your son to be a kindergarten teacher. Not a choice amny parents would be happy with, but if your Muslim iimigrant said they'd not be happy with it, they're radicals and not accepting of our fundamental values, eh?
Same goes, by the way, for the questions
"Imagine your son came home, telling you he is homosexual and that he wants to spend the rest of his life with another man. How do you react?" or
"In Germany, different politicians are openly homosexual. What do you think of homosexual holding higher political office?"

As for demeaning questions:
"You witness a talk revealing that your neigbors/freinds plan and/or commited a terrorist attack. What do you do?", or
"You heard about the terrorist attacks from 9/11 in NY and 3/11 in Madrid. Were the perpetrators in your eyes terrorists or freedom fighters?", or, to top it all,
"Some people blame the Jews for everything evil in this word. What do you say about these claims?"

all of these basically assuming our Muslim immigrants to generally hold barbaric views. How would you feel to be asked tehse latter questions? They are basically an insult.

As, by the way, is making only Muslim immigrants take a test. I'm against those testes as a whole, but making only one group take them is beyond ridiculous.

P.S. My dubious values and sucky Dutch got me a 3,4 on the Dutch immigrant test. Hmm, off to Sweden before they start with such nonsense as well.

she is the currently the only dutch minister who has balls. And that is a lot to say about a woman.
She also seems to be one of the few in Europe. Male or female.

There are many questions on the German one that I don't agree with, as they don't ask the immigrant about fundamental constitutional things, but questions quite of few of the 'upright Christians' or other conservatives might anser in a similar way as your stereotypical 'cough-muslim-cough',

Yes, but I would like them to be expelled as well ;)

Well, it doubted between 2 and 3 hours (I guessed 2, which was correct). And with 5 and 16 hours the question would be too simple (although, if you have it wrong, you probably aren't really wanting to live here)
See? I would have been wrong, and I have an idea of Holland's size, just not that sure about distances. A person who'd pick 5 or 16 hrs clearly has no idea of the size of the country.

Yes, but I would like them to be expelled as well ;)
Well...

I'd be fine if we based citizenship on this test, I guess. As in, if everybody who wants to get their citizenship needs to take them as well as everyone who doesn't want to lose it take it within an X-months time frame. And better do well on them or have another X months time to get their asses out of our wonderful, new country.

All I resent is apllying two different measures to new and old citizens. You can't go basically asking all new immigrants to love our homosexual politicians, while one of the parties in the government right now even opposed such a simple thing as civil unions, and then try to say we do that in order to assure our new citizens are 'just like us'.

All I resent is apllying two different measures to new and old citizens. You can't go basically asking all new immigrants to love our homosexual politicians, while one of the parties in the government right now even opposed such a simple thing as civil unions, and then try to say we do that in order to assure our new citizens are 'just like us'.

Hypocrisy is inherent with (chosen) governments/governing.

See? I would have been wrong, and I have an idea of Holland's size, just not that sure about distances. A person who'd pick 5 or 16 hrs clearly has no idea of the size of the country.
Indeed, we probably don't want them anyway

made up question:
It's Friday and it has been snowing, currently there's 2 inch of snow lying around in the country, what would happen?
A: Nothing unusually, traffic would go on as every day.
B: There will be some more traffic jams as other days but they'll clear up after a few hours.
C: All the traffic in Holland comes to a stop, total lenght of all cars standing still on the highways is almost 900 kilometers and stays standing for hours.

C would be correct, all traffic jams were almost 900 kilometres long (that's from Groningen to Maastricht and back, almost the entire country from North to South).

First of all, I did the test and I failed with 5.1/10 :D

And the problem with tests (in general) is that you can fool them. You just have to give the answer that the examinator wants to hear. Not the answer that you think is right. How about letting the neighbours of the new immigrants vote on their suitability in the country? Although then you'll have the problem of bribes(from extremists or from the immigrants0 or those uptight christians that vote no out of principle.

For me this is is probably the hardest issue in the dutch politics and I don't have a clear opinion on it.

clicky (http://www.teleac.nl/nationaleinburgeringtest/), it's in Dutch.
I have a hard time understanding this stuff...
anyone translating it?

C would be correct, all traffic jams were almost 900 kilometres long (that's from Groningen to Maastricht and back, almost the entire country from North to South).

Yeah, luckily for me the one that that happened last year I was in Denmark where the weather was just beautiful :D

I just barely passed with a 6,1. I guess it's not bad, compared to what most people have been scoring. I think it's pretty blatantly obvious that this test is just there to set immigrants up for a fall while pacifying the general public.

To give you a general idea; the minister that is responsible for this test also thinks Iran is safe for gays and Christians.

Yeah, luckily for me the one that that happened last year I was in Denmark where the weather was just beautiful :D
And I was at home, going nowhere:p

HeSex (:p ): it's a bit too much to translate.

I have a hard time understanding this stuff...
anyone translating it?

Question #1:

How much crap do you know about our country?

A) Everything
B) Nothing
C) Don't care


Congratulations! If you have answered 'C' you are a genuine dutchie.

Hypocrisy is inherent with (chosen) governments/governing.
Oh, we're getting philosophical. Nice, but let's talk extent, hmm? I'd say that even asking for compliance with fundamental constitutional values can't be a must-have for immigration as it isn't one for retaining citizenship, either, but I can see how others differ on this.

What I absolutely can't see is how one can demand a liberal attitude that isn't even dominant in the country in question, but only a wannabe-dream on some assorted pieces of paper.

Hypocrisy is inherent with (chosen) governments/governing.

Oh, we're getting philosophical. Nice, but let's talk extent, hmm? I'd say that even asking for compliance with fundamental constitutional values can't be a must-have for immigration as it isn't one for retaining citizenship, either, but I can see how others differ on this.
What i absolutely can't see is how you can demand a liberal attitude that isn't even dominant in the country in question, but only a wannabe-dream on some assorted pieces of paper.

Nope, not getting philosophical. Just concluding this from the things I've seen in the years I've spent on this planet.

And where did I demand a liberal attitude?

Yeah, sorry, it's just that this kind of theoretical statement felt oddly randomly thrown in and not exactly like saying anything.

I wasn't referring to you in the second paragraph. Damn English language. That was a general kind of 'you', as in "how one could..". Will go and fix that.

Yeah, sorry, it's just that this kind of theoretical statement felt oddly randomly thrown in and not exactly like saying anything.

It was only saying how I felt about the world. So yes, I am a pessimistic person.