NationStates Jolt Archive

I read some of the previous posts about Jesus and his stances on private property. They inspired me to write a paper for school on it. I'm here to post it, and let the debate begin. (Sorry if the formatting is strange, I'm just doing a copy/paste from Microsoft Word)

“From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” This quote from Karl Marx is the idea which communism is founded, and is often coined as “Marxism” or “Marxist”. The founder of this ideal, however, is not Karl Marx and in fact came nearly 2000 years before. The Bible, in fact, contained the first documentation of the phrase, with a minimal difference. In Acts 4:32-35, it reads:
32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Acts 4:35 nearly lists the entire ideology of the communist party. This quote shows a subtle, yet obvious, indication to the communistic stance Jesus had on property. For a more direct approach, Matthew 19:21 says, “Jesus answered, ‘If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’”
There is also a sect of Anabaptists called the Hutterites. “The Hutterites practice total community of goods: that is, all property is owned by the church, and individual members and their families are provided for out of the common resources. This practice is based largely on their interpretation of passages in Acts chapters 2, 4 and 5, which speak of the believers "having all things [in] common,’” explains Wikipedia.org, an online encyclopedia.
Rev. Rick L. Patterson, Th.D., president of Miami Christian University, wrote an essay called “The Law of Tithing.” In this he wrote, “It has often been said that more could be learned about a person's commitment to Christ by looking at his checkbook rather than his prayer book.” He also explains that the Bible gives possession of all things to God. “Based upon the above scriptures and many, many others, it is clear that the entire earth, world, gold, silver, animals, and all people are God's! The principle of divine ownership teaches us that there is nothing that does not belong to God Himself!”
If everything belongs to God, what need is there to Tithe? One is not giving back to God, as it is already his, and with the communistic ideals preached by Jesus and his Apostles, one should become skeptical to the need to tithe. For the Church of Latter-Day Saints, it is mandatory to tithe, whether your income is from welfare or high-paying corporate employment. This contradicts Acts 4:35; the poor have need, God does not.
With many Churches demanding members to Tithe, and many “devout” Christians who are completely pro-capitalism, one would wonder whether or not the Christian faith has become corrupt over the hundreds of years of its existence. The anti-privatizing notion in Acts seems to have become entirely ignored by modern-day churches, which essentially means that Christ’s teachings are neglected. Jesus may have been a communist, but God’s grace has become capital, and churches control the means of production.

Hmm...

Somebody should tell the communist leaders of the world this.

Meanwhile, I shall carry on the proud burden of McCarthism.

"Red! Red! Commie! Shoot him! Blacklist him! Lock him up! Burn all the Bibles, just in case he's on to something!" :D

I find it disappointing how corrupt Communism has become. Did you know: In the 1936 revolution in Spain, the Communist parties prevented the Anarchist revolution in order to stay on good terms with Capitalist nations.

I find it disappointing how corrupt Communism has become. Did you know: In the 1936 revolution in Spain, the Communist parties prevented the Anarchist revolution in order to stay on good terms with Capitalist nations.

Hmm...

Cprrect me if I am wrong, but anarchy is communism in it's purest form, no?

Based on the literal word Communism, yes. The system itself? Not really.

Hmm...

Cprrect me if I am wrong, but anarchy is communism in it's purest form, no?

Anarchy implies an 'everyman for himself' approach, it is individualism at its purist form. True Communism has an identical structure but emphasis is placed on being part of a community and cooperating with others.

I actually rped something like this with my NS nation...the Christian Communists. So...I wonder if a communist Christian state would ever exist...whom, if you believe in the rapture, the "New Juresalem" that Jesus establishes would be a communist state.

Hmm...

Cprrect me if I am wrong, but anarchy is communism in it's purest form, no?
depends on the form of anarchy, there is anarcho-capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism) for instance

Hmm...

Cprrect me if I am wrong, but anarchy is communism in it's purest form, no?

Communism in its purest form is anarchist; anarchism is not necessarily communist.

The Communist Party in Spain at the time was a faithful servant of Moscow, and it did what it did not in the interests of Communism, but according to the decrees of Stalinism.

Anarchy implies an 'everyman for himself' approach, it is individualism at its purist form. True Communism has an identical structure but emphasis is placed on being part of a community and cooperating with others.
No it doesn't.

Anarchy implies an 'everyman for himself' approach, it is individualism at its purist form. True Communism has an identical structure but emphasis is placed on being part of a community and cooperating with others.
Anarchy has actually turned into a giant misconception, as most would say that it means constant rioting, violence, etc. Really Anarchism is just the absence of a political system, but also puts an emphasis on working as a community.

I find it funny that this thread shifted to something else so quickly, but oh well. :p :rolleyes:

I find it funny that this thread shifted to something else so quickly, but oh well. :p :rolleyes:

I find it funny that this thread shifted to something else so quickly, but oh well. :p :rolleyes:

Jesus's communism lies in his attitude towards humans. He essentially believed that most people were inherently good, even if they'd made some mistakes; hence why he solicited with sinners on a daily basis. To him, the thought of a society of people who got along with each other and shared everything they owned was a very real and plausible concept.

the thought of a society of people who got along with each other and shared everything they owned was a very real and plausible concept.


And now we live in the U.S. (for me) :D :rolleyes:

And now we live in the U.S. (for me) :D :rolleyes:
In a sense, it's hilarious that the US is currently the primary representative of the legacy of the man.

Then again, when you actually note how little resemblence there is between the Church of Paul and the ideals of Jesus, it seems to make sense.

Communism persay didn't exist back then, so no, but his attitudes do mark the begining of a form of socialist thought, albeit still highly unrefined. Marxism, it should be noted, has a lot more to it than communist economics. There is also the material monist aspect as well as the application of Hegelian dialectics to history, which are both quite absent in Jesus's thinking.

Communism persay didn't exist back then, so no, but his attitudes do mark the begining of a form of socialist thought, albeit still highly unrefined. Marxism, it should be noted, has a lot more to it than communist economics. There is also the material monist aspect as well as the application of Hegelian dialectics to history, which are both quite absent in Jesus's thinking.

In the Marxist sense, Jesus is essentially a utopian socialist.

In a sense, it's hilarious that the US is currently the primary representative of the legacy of the man.

No it's not. The Vatican City is, officially, and it is often observed that the Philippines have the most devoutly Christian population.

@All: Jesus wasn't communist. Communism is a secular movement.
The Bible, in fact, contained the first documentation of the phrase, with a minimal difference.
I see your clevery word usage and I must point out its impossible to prove that. There have been so many documents that were already lost prior to the probable recordings of the Bible (Acts about 65AD). The Library of Alexandria for example and various things we haven't unlocked or discovered yet.

When quoting the Bible, do it like this, with a lead in if one will (for example):
"*quote*" (Acts: 4:32-35).
Which is read as, "Acts of the Apostles, chapter four, verses thirty-two to thirty-five." That can depend on which format you're supposed to be using, but I encourage you to do it as your institution wishes. Please, however, don't do the verse listing as it appears in the Bible. I've never heard anyone say:
...things that were sold ... verse thirty-five ... and laid them down ...
@The Half-Hidden: Stop American hating and just admit that we're the most devote nation on the planet. :p

@All: Jesus wasn't communist. Communism is a secular movement.

Then why have there been so many religiously based communist movements?

e.g. The Catholic Workers (http://www.catholicworker.org/)

Why did the USA fear communism? If it's time for change then greet it with welcome arms. If the USA adopted communism then maybe most of the world might be. But I blame it on the "Not invented here!" argument. They blocked concorde because it wasn't invented in Yankeeland, so maybe they had that feeling too in the past.

Marx believed Religion to be a capitalist tool of oppression.

And for as long as religious people are sheep to the Vicar without ever bothering to think about their faith it is true.

Plenty of religious people are not.

So if you are an absolute purists then you can't have religious communists. The rest of us don't give a shit.

Marx believed Religion to be a capitalist tool of oppression.

No he didn't. In fact it can be argued he admired religion slightly for giving people hope and comfort in a heartless world.

He still didn't like it, but his view on it wasn't as simple as "thinking it was a capitalist tool of oppression." Especially since it has been around far longer than capitalism. As I understand it, it was the people after him who put an anticlerical spin on Communism.

Then why have there been so many religiously based communist movements?
The answer lies in this thread. I like to think that runs in logic along the lines of, "Jesus cared about the poor, hungry, naked, leperous, and down trodden. He must have been communist." Which, actually, isn't the case at all. Its called compassion. Jesus never preached some philosphy where everything should be consolidated and distributed between all people. I've heard a number of hard-core Christians say Jesus invented capitalism.
Today over 185 Catholic Worker communities remain committed to nonviolence, voluntary poverty, prayer, and hospitality for the homeless, exiled, hungry, and foresaken. Catholic Workers continue to protest injustice, war, racism, and violence of all forms.
Sure does reek of communism. Marx really got into these people's heads! Sounds like everyother Christian and community organization I've ever heard of and worked with. I however don't know the history of this organization or if it was hijacked by radicals and baddies like the Teamsters.
I must also say that perspective is a choice.

Marx did indeed have some negative views on organized government, but only because, at the time, religion was inseparable from the state. Today's communists (at least most of them) support or tolerate organized religion. And in regard to the Jesus thing, I believe he was a communist. I think he (or at least the mythology/legend behind him) was the perfect human being and would have encouraged reformist communism because it follows all of the core ideals such as equality and morality and community and justice.

No because unlike communism, Jesus doesn't support violence. Karl Marx on the other hand....

No because unlike communism, Jesus doesn't support violence. Karl Marx on the other hand....
..... had a great beard!

Jesus's communism lies in his attitude towards humans. He essentially believed that most people were inherently good, even if they'd made some mistakes; hence why he solicited with sinners on a daily basis. To him, the thought of a society of people who got along with each other and shared everything they owned was a very real and plausible concept.

Jesus did not believe that people were inherently good; in fact, he said just the opposite:

Mark 7:
14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

and John 2:

23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

The answer lies in this thread. I like to think that runs in logic along the lines of, "Jesus cared about the poor, hungry, naked, leperous, and down trodden. He must have been communist." Which, actually, isn't the case at all. Its called compassion. Jesus never preached some philosphy where everything should be consolidated and distributed between all people. I've heard a number of hard-core Christians say Jesus invented capitalism.

This is rather beside the point, how people have interpreted the Gospels I mean. I was just rather bemused by your claim that Communism was a secular movement when there have been so many religiously based communist movements. And I say religiously based, rather than Christian based because other religions have devout followers who are also communist. I simply chose the Catholic Workers because I have read a lot about them and used to be quite a fan of Dorothy Day

Sure does reek of communism. Marx really got into these people's heads! Sounds like everyother Christian and community organization I've ever heard of and worked with. I however don't know the history of this organization or if it was hijacked by radicals and baddies like the Teamsters.
I must also say that perspective is a choice.

I think you should read some of the writings of the originators, e.g. Dorothy Day:

In retrospect though, there were far better examples, meh.

Jesus never preached some philosphy where everything should be consolidated and distributed between all people.

so those bits in acts don't actually exist?

Marx believed Religion to be a capitalist tool of oppression.

I don't know much about Marx, and haven't studied his works much. I myself am more of a follower of Lenin, however, I do know that that's not necessarily true. Many communists that I know are not anti-religion or anti-god in any way, shape, or form, though they do believe that organized religion is just a tool used for control.

Whether this goes back to Marx, I do not know, though I highly doubt that Marx said religion is a tool of oppression for Capitalism.

Why did the USA fear communism? If it's time for change then greet it with welcome arms. If the USA adopted communism then maybe most of the world might be. But I blame it on the "Not invented here!" argument. They blocked concorde because it wasn't invented in Yankeeland, so maybe they had that feeling too in the past.
The USA feared Communism because of its anti-capitalism stance. Marx believed that capitalism would slowly wither and and eventually turn to communism, and Lenin believed that a revolution was a necessity for this to take place. I'm not entirely sure about the dates, but I believe Lenin was closer to the 1930's+ era. A revolt against capitalism would not leave America the fat-assed country it was/is.

Probably none of that makes sense.... it's been a long day.

The USA feared Communism because of its anti-capitalism stance. Marx believed that capitalism would slowly wither and and eventually turn to communism, and Lenin believed that a revolution was a necessity for this to take place.

Both Marx and Lenin believed that revolution was probably necessary, though Marx was not convinced of this in the capitalist countries with strong democratic tendencies, like the US and England of the time.

I am certain that this discussion was held before. And also one about if Jesus was a hippie.

Both Marx and Lenin believed that revolution was probably necessary, though Marx was not convinced of this in the capitalist countries with strong democratic tendencies, like the US and England of the time.

I'll remember that. At one point I really followed communism, though now I'm a complete Anarchist.

I am certain that this discussion was held before. And also one about if Jesus was a hippie.

Right.... that's why on the first post I said that I read the other threads about this.

Right.... that's why on the first post I said that I read the other threads about this.
Ah. I realy should learn to read the first posts. But it was so long.:D

Ah. I realy should learn to read the first posts. But it was so long.:D

Yeah.... I'd hate to admit it, but I'm on the lazy side, too.

Yeah.... I'd hate to admit it, but I'm on the lazy side, too.
I would have read it. If it had been about something interesting. :D

Hmm...

Cprrect me if I am wrong, but anarchy is communism in it's purest form, no?

No, anarchy is libertainism in its truest form. Pure communism has never existed, nor will pure capitalism.

I was just rather bemused by your claim that Communism was a secular movement when there have been so many religiously based communist movements.
Communism is a secular economic movement at heart. Of course there are movements that encorporate religion, just like there are democratic movements that encorporate faith.
...e.g. Dorothy Day...In retrospect though, there were far better examples, meh.[/QUOTE]
Dorothy Day, the American commie that was deported to Russian in the First Red Scare? Meh, she didn't really do all that much.
so those bits in acts don't actually exist?
Acts of the Apostles occurs after Jesus' death, bud. I'm talking about what Jesus is refuted to have said, not how one of His followers interpreted what ever it was he acquired sixty years later.

@The Half-Hidden: Stop American hating and just admit that we're the most devote nation on the planet. :p
No, you really are not. My country is more Christian than yours. We just don't wave our dicks around about it.

Why did the USA fear communism? If it's time for change then greet it with welcome arms. If the USA adopted communism then maybe most of the world might be. But I blame it on the "Not invented here!" argument. They blocked concorde because it wasn't invented in Yankeeland, so maybe they had that feeling too in the past.
This may be true. I think they feared communism for the same reason the Tsars feared the American Revolution: it was an ideology that had the potential to remove the entrenched ruling class (yes, America has one) from their ivory towers.

No because unlike communism, Jesus doesn't support violence. Karl Marx on the other hand....
Fair point. Marx's philosophy was based on the idea that the only way forward for society was through conflict.

No, you really are not. My country is more Christian than yours. We just don't wave our dicks around about it.


This may be true. I think they feared communism for the same reason the Tsars feared the American Revolution: it was an ideology that had the potential to remove the entrenched ruling class (yes, America has one) from their ivory towers.


Fair point. Marx's philosophy was based on the idea that the only way forward for society was through conflict.
Yeah.. A lot of those people who condemn communism for being violent are the same people who praise war for the advancement in technology..

No, you really are not. My country is more Christian than yours. We just don't wave our dicks around about it.
I said that we are more devote that where ever it is you're comming from. I said nothing about Christianity.

damn right... jesus was a commie pinko hippie! woo!

He wasn't. He whole heartedly supported an earthly system of governments and leaders. The biblical world was a little bit communist, in that councils (namley religous ones) tended to run the show. The word "Soviet" actually comes from the Russian "Sovyetovat", which means "to council".

I find it disappointing how corrupt Communism has become. Did you know: In the 1936 revolution in Spain, the Communist parties prevented the Anarchist revolution in order to stay on good terms with Capitalist nations.
What?

I'm always upset by the corruption undergone by both Chirstianity and communism. I also feel that both are fundamentally linked by love, empathy and appriciation of the weak, the meak and the poor.

What?
In 1936 Anarchist and Communist groups formed militias and started spinning a revolution. In Catalonia (and I believe Barcelona as well), the capitalist system was temporarily removed and the town was run by the working class. However, as the months progressed, the communist party, POUM and others, started using propaganda to prevent the revolution from continuing in order to stay on good terms with England and France. Hooray for the Soviet Union!

yes

Marx did indeed have some negative views on organized government, but only because, at the time, religion was inseparable from the state.
No, not at all. The Church as a State institution was pretty much abandoned before Marx started his work.

Marx wrote:

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people."

The implication being that religion blinds the prolitariate to their earthly condition, and is a salve that deadens their suffering. Thus in a "worker's paradise" there would be no need for religion.

Today's communists (at least most of them) support or tolerate organized religion.Communists-No, Socialists-Maybe, Marxists-No, Maoists-No. I would question the sincerity of such communists.


The quote implies that the elimination of religion would awaken the masses and that the continued existance of religion is a barrier to the creation of the
"worker's paradise"
And in regard to the Jesus thing, I believe he was a communist. I think he (or at least the mythology/legend behind him) was the perfect human being and would have encouraged reformist communism because it follows all of the core ideals such as equality and morality and community and justice. Not really, there are strong scripture against compulsive redistribution. Charity, on the other hand is a tenant.

In 1936 Anarchist and Communist groups formed militias and started spinning a revolution. In Catalonia (and I believe Barcelona as well), the capitalist system was temporarily removed and the town was run by the working class. However, as the months progressed, the communist party, POUM and others, started using propaganda to prevent the revolution from continuing in order to stay on good terms with England and France. Hooray for the Soviet Union!

a few small corrections:
catalonia is an entire region - got it's own language and nationalist parties and everything. barcelona is the major city of the region. and the poum sided more with the cnt/fai than with the cpe, who took to calling them fascists and eventually had many of them rounded up and arrested.

Jesus was a hippie. :gundge:

I'm always upset by the corruption undergone by both Chirstianity and communism. I also feel that both are fundamentally linked by love, empathy and appriciation of the weak, the meak and the poor.


Hear, Hear!

Jesus's communism lies in his attitude towards humans. He essentially believed that most people were inherently good, even if they'd made some mistakes; hence why he solicited with sinners on a daily basis. To him, the thought of a society of people who got along with each other and shared everything they owned was a very real and plausible concept.

Wow, that guy sure did have his head in the clouds.