NationStates Jolt Archive

so I am watching a show with my kids this morning and there is a dove commercial on, that's all about women seeing their own beauty, and how "every woman is beautiful"

you can watch the commercial here (http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/commercial.asp?src=homecommerciallink)
it does have sound so do what you must (turn down speakers ect.)

anyway, I was thinking that if my self esteem were based on my looks I would have pretty low self esteem. (it's true)

Why does everyone have to be beautiful? I don't understand. Isn't it enough to think that you are smart, funny, caring, a good friend, ect.? why is there the assumption that someone has to like their physical appearance? I know I am not beautiful, it doesn't really bother me, why does it bother other people?

So the little girl doesn't like her freckles? big deal. Can't she like her sense of humor, or her athletic ability?

it doesn't bother anyone that I don't think I am all that coordinated and that I lack dancing skills, but the beauty thing bothers them?

The whole thing seems superficial to me.

Then I started wondering about self esteem in general do you get it from actually being things (smart, pretty, funny) or do you become those things because you believe you are?

what do you think?





Disclaimers: yes, I know that the company is a soap company and would therefore be interested in outer beauty.

no, I am not fishing for compliments, no, I don't think I am ugly, I just think I am not beautiful (there is a difference) on the continuum of beauty with beautiful being at one end and hideous being at the other I rate myself slightly above average. So, I don't want any "of course you are beautiful in your own way" crap.

yes, I compliment my kids, because of things that are true, they are beautiful but I would have to say that I make it a point to 90% of the time compliment non-physical things about them, because it's like Grandma said "beauty fades, but dumb is forever" I want them to be who they are no matter what they look like.

Self esteem... I'll come back when I've found mine ;)

Bah, I hate people who judge on outer appearence or the way someone dresses. You're tottaly right, though it would be nice if some of my fellow teenage person would start understanding that. I couldnt care less how someone looks. More important is the fact wether I can work/interact or have a nice talk with a person. I suppose I dont look good at all. But instead of people who are constantly trying to have good looks. I actually have the skill to do something

because it's like Grandma said "beauty fades, but dumb is forever"

Ooh. Thats gold. :p

In the words of a great philosopher, Dogbert: "Inner beauty doesn't matter because no one can see it." But he's kind of a cynic.

Also, I thought the Dove campaign was about that, to get women, especially girls to accept themselves as they are and not worry if they don't have the looks of a supermodel. It's true that one shouldn't base his or her self esteem on looks alone (otherwise I'd be screwed) but on the total package instead, i.e. personality, sense of humour, smarts, etc. (gee, I guess I'm screwed up anyway).

In the words of a great philosopher, Dogbert: "Inner beauty doesn't matter because no one can see it." But he's kind of a cynic.

Also, I thought the Dove campaign was about that, to get women, especially girls to accept themselves as they are and not worry if they don't have the looks of a supermodel. It's true that one shouldn't base his or her self esteem on looks alone (otherwise I'd be screwed) but on the total package instead, i.e. personality, sense of humour, smarts, etc. (gee, I guess I'm screwed up anyway).
Interestingly enough, the Dove campaign also includes commercials showing regular women, and imploring them to 'love the skin you're in', which they also use as a tagline for a cellulite cream. That's right. Love the skin you are in, once you've gotten rid of that unsightly cellulite. The whole little kid self-esteem thing is in reaction to the bad press their earlier campaign got. See? Bitching at companies can sometimes get results:)

"Buliding self-esteem" is just more of the same damned politically correct bullshit. God, I wish we would get over this crap!

The way to make people feel good about themselves is to insure they actually accomplish things, even if they're little things at first, so that that have an actual, you know .... like, reason to esteem themselves! Sheesh!

"Buliding self-esteem" is just more of the same damned politically correct bullshit. God, I wish we would get over this crap!

The way to make people feel good about themselves is to insure they actually accomplish things, even if they're little things at first, so that that have an actual, you know .... like, reason to esteem themselves! Sheesh!
see? and that is my question. Do my children excel because they have good self esteem or do they have good self esteem because they excel?

"Buliding self-esteem" is just more of the same damned politically correct bullshit. God, I wish we would get over this crap! Yes, such crap. When people try to counteract the effects of years of negativity, it's PC bullshit. How about we don't call it 'building' self-esteem, but rather name it 'resisting the tearing-down of self-esteem'? Does that make more sense to you?

The way to make people feel good about themselves is to insure they actually accomplish things, even if they're little things at first, so that that have an actual, you know .... like, reason to esteem themselves! Sheesh!
What a great idea! We can help people feel good about themselves for achieving the ideal model of beauty! When they don't, we will denigrate them, and tell them how they've failed! Woohoo! Oh wait...that's kind of what we're fighting against. Hmmm. How stupidly PC.

What's with the font?

Im ugly.
Im stupid.
Im angry and radical.

I deserve to be strung up and shot.

Low self-esteem rocks :)

Ecpecially when you combine it with Extroversion so your a Charismatic, firm handshake, friendly, modest dude.

Recently ive concluded im not ugly due to the fact lots of people do tell me so. i assumed they were being polite until i got asked my number from a group of girls.

However i am stupid.
i know stuff
but im stupid.

see? and that is my question. Do my children excel because they have good self esteem or do they have good self esteem because they excel?That's a good question. I'd say it's both, that excelling gives them self esteem, but that if they never had any self esteem, they wouldn't have excelled in the first place. So i'd say it started with them having self esteem, but now it's a cycle.

see? and that is my question. Do my children excel because they have good self esteem or do they have good self esteem because they excel?
I suspect they are functions of each other: they accept your high expectations of them, strive to excel, which gives them both greater self-esteem and praise from you, which encourages them to excel even more, which .... :)

That's a good question. I'd say it's both, that excelling gives them self esteem, but that if they never had any self esteem, they wouldn't have excelled in the first place. So i'd say it started with them having self esteem, but now it's a cycle.

ah, but what was their self esteem based on before they had any real accomplishments? I doubt that babies are born with a good self image, I would think that they were indifferent, how did they get a good self image to begin with?

ah, but what was their self esteem based on before they had any real accomplishments? I doubt that babies are born with a good self image, I would think that they were indifferent, how did they get a good self image to begin with?Presumably you told them things like you love them and would love them no matter what, etc.

Yes, such crap. When people try to counteract the effects of years of negativity, it's PC bullshit. How about we don't call it 'building' self-esteem, but rather name it 'resisting the tearing-down of self-esteem'? Does that make more sense to you?

What a great idea! We can help people feel good about themselves for achieving the ideal model of beauty! When they don't, we will denigrate them, and tell them how they've failed! Woohoo! Oh wait...that's kind of what we're fighting against. Hmmm. How stupidly PC.
I strongly suspect that you misunderstand me or that I didn't adequately explain myself. :(

Self-esteem ( not some subjective value judgment of what constitutes "beauty" ) is built by building on a string of accomplishments and achievements, not by constant repetition of "oh, you are so great," when the party to whom you are saying that has no real-world reason to feel great because they have yet to actually accomplish anything.

Better?

so I am watching a show with my kids this morning and there is a dove commercial on, that's all about women seeing their own beauty, and how "every woman is beautiful"

you can watch the commercial here (http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/commercial.asp?src=homecommerciallink)
it does have sound so do what you must (turn down speakers ect.)

anyway, I was thinking that if my self esteem were based on my looks I would have pretty low self esteem. (it's true)

Why does everyone have to be beautiful? I don't understand. Isn't it enough to think that you are smart, funny, caring, a good friend, ect.? why is there the assumption that someone has to like their physical appearance? I know I am not beautiful, it doesn't really bother me, why does it bother other people?

So the little girl doesn't like her freckles? big deal. Can't she like her sense of humor, or her athletic ability?

it doesn't bother anyone that I don't think I am all that coordinated and that I lack dancing skills, but the beauty thing bothers them?

The whole thing seems superficial to me.

Then I started wondering about self esteem in general do you get it from actually being things (smart, pretty, funny) or do you become those things because you believe you are?

what do you think?





Disclaimers: yes, I know that the company is a soap company and would therefore be interested in outer beauty.

no, I am not fishing for compliments, no, I don't think I am ugly, I just think I am not beautiful (there is a difference) on the continuum of beauty with beautiful being at one end and hideous being at the other I rate myself slightly above average. So, I don't want any "of course you are beautiful in your own way" crap.

yes, I compliment my kids, because of things that are true, they are beautiful but I would have to say that I make it a point to 90% of the time compliment non-physical things about them, because it's like Grandma said "beauty fades, but dumb is forever" I want them to be who they are no matter what they look like.



I actually like that commercial. I think what people need to realize is how subjective beauty is. My buddies and I actually love the fact that we are attracted to different things in women physically, emotionally, etc. What many of my friends seek in a woman would make me run the other direction and vice versa. That's why one's self-esteem should be defined by the first part of the word, the self. Become the person you want to be and the rest is all downhill.

Presumably you told them things like you love them and would love them no matter what, etc.
yeah, I was thinking after I posted that and it wasn't very long after they were born that they had some actual accomplishments, like when my oldest was 2 weeks old and she smiled at me (for real, no gas) and I praised her "oh, look at you smiling you got mommy's joke, you are so funny too!" yeah, I guess my kids got a lot of praise, even when they were hours old they got praise for nursing and for pooping when daddy was home to change it LOL.

so I am watching a show with my kids this morning and there is a dove commercial on, that's all about women seeing their own beauty, and how "every woman is beautiful"

you can watch the commercial here (http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/commercial.asp?src=homecommerciallink)
it does have sound so do what you must (turn down speakers ect.)

anyway, I was thinking that if my self esteem were based on my looks I would have pretty low self esteem. (it's true)

Why does everyone have to be beautiful? I don't understand. Isn't it enough to think that you are smart, funny, caring, a good friend, ect.? why is there the assumption that someone has to like their physical appearance? I know I am not beautiful, it doesn't really bother me, why does it bother other people?

So the little girl doesn't like her freckles? big deal. Can't she like her sense of humor, or her athletic ability?

it doesn't bother anyone that I don't think I am all that coordinated and that I lack dancing skills, but the beauty thing bothers them?

The whole thing seems superficial to me.

Then I started wondering about self esteem in general do you get it from actually being things (smart, pretty, funny) or do you become those things because you believe you are?

what do you think?





Disclaimers: yes, I know that the company is a soap company and would therefore be interested in outer beauty.

no, I am not fishing for compliments, no, I don't think I am ugly, I just think I am not beautiful (there is a difference) on the continuum of beauty with beautiful being at one end and hideous being at the other I rate myself slightly above average. So, I don't want any "of course you are beautiful in your own way" crap.

yes, I compliment my kids, because of things that are true, they are beautiful but I would have to say that I make it a point to 90% of the time compliment non-physical things about them, because it's like Grandma said "beauty fades, but dumb is forever" I want them to be who they are no matter what they look like.


Well, you see it is like this.....Dove sells Beauty Bars (http://www.dove.us/your_skin/beautybars.asp), but they don't want your self esteem to get in the way of you making the purchase. :D

But not to fret, Ray Stevens has it covered in his song:

Everything is beautiful in its own way
Like a starry summer night
Or a snow-covered winter's day
And everybody's beautiful, in their own way
Under God's Heaven
The world's gonna find a way

ah, but what was their self esteem based on before they had any real accomplishments? I doubt that babies are born with a good self image, I would think that they were indifferent, how did they get a good self image to begin with?
All little people are born with a virtually infinite capacity for love. When a parent loves them unconditionally, they respond by feeling loved and accepted. This is the beginning of what our politically correct friends have lingistically preempted as "self-esteem." As with most things worth having, the rock on which everything else is built is love. Strange thing that, yes? :)

Ray Stevens has it covered in his song:

Everything is beautiful in its own way
Like a starry summer night
Or a snow-covered winter's day
And everybody's beautiful, in their own way
Under God's Heaven
The world's gonna find a way
Although the song is a bit ... um ... cheesy, there is a great deal of truth in it. I would say that nothing living is "un-beautiful." :)

"Buliding self-esteem" is just more of the same damned politically correct bullshit. God, I wish we would get over this crap!

The way to make people feel good about themselves is to insure they actually accomplish things, even if they're little things at first, so that that have an actual, you know .... like, reason to esteem themselves! Sheesh!

Accomplish things? What things? Goals you set for them? Self-esteem is built by accomplishing goals set by oneself to please oneself and to become what one desires to become. It's about creating the person that is most pleasing to you from the inside not sitting around on your ass.

A child who couldn't run a five-mile race at the beginning of the season and can at the end of the season did accomplish something even if they still came in last place.

There is a significant difference between not setting goals based on the performance of others and not setting goals at all.

I strongly suspect that you misunderstand me or that I didn't adequately explain myself. :(

Self-esteem ( not some subjective value judgment of what constitutes "beauty" ) is built by building on a string of accomplishments and achievements, not by constant repetition of "oh, you are so great," when the party to whom you are saying that has no real-world reason to feel great because they have yet to actually accomplish anything.

Better?

What I find so interesting, Eut, is that you have created a myth and live by it as though it is identifiable fact. This 'PC bullshit' of telling people 'you are so great' for no reason...is a lie. The reality is much more practical. Praise for 'nothing' is not a tactic used by educators, by parents, by anyone sane...not even the PC groups. In fact, your description of building self-esteem is right in line with what 'PC' groups try to do. Praise for little things...praise for colouring in the lines, praise for tying one's shoes, praise for trying at a game even when the outcome is loss.

PC, for you, is this great-big boogeyman of things that don't make sense, a big, ugly strawman.

Accomplish things? What things? Goals you set for them? Self-esteem is built by accomplishing goals set by oneself to please oneself and to become what one desires to become. It's about creating the person that is most pleasing to you from the inside not sitting around on your ass.

A child who couldn't run a five-mile race at the beginning of the season and can at the end of the season did accomplish something even if they still came in last place.

There is a significant difference between not setting goals based on the performance of others and not setting goals at all.
WTF, over? Goals are both "other-imposed" and "self-imposed." Rare indeed is the child who initiaties his/her own potty-training.

As a child begins to initiate things own their own, the wise parent will praise and reward.

WTF, over? Goals are both "other-imposed" and "self-imposed." Rare indeed is the child who initiaties his/her own potty-training.

As a child begins to initiate things own their own, the wise parent will praise and reward.

Actually, it's not that rare, in fact. Children frequently seek to be more like older siblings in that regard. You attacked the idea of "self-esteem" being a virtue of its own and the point of those that advocate not making competition the focus of self-esteem is not that goals can never be suggested or encouraged by anyone outside, but that goals should be about improving on one's own performance and not how we rate against the performance of others. That's the point of "love the skin you're in".

What I find so interesting, Eut, is that you have created a myth and live by it as though it is identifiable fact. This 'PC bullshit' of telling people 'you are so great' for no reason...is a lie. The reality is much more practical. Praise for 'nothing' is not a tactic used by educators, by parents, by anyone sane...not even the PC groups. In fact, your description of building self-esteem is right in line with what 'PC' groups try to do. Praise for little things...praise for colouring in the lines, praise for tying one's shoes, praise for trying at a game even when the outcome is loss.

PC, for you, is this great-big boogeyman of things that don't make sense, a big, ugly strawman.
Yes, I do find "PC" rather disgusting, perhaps because it has been so abused, misused, and confused for actual accomplishment. When "PC-speak" misleads a child into believing his shit doesn't stink because he's so frakking great, it only leads to future frustration when a prospective employer ( for example ) fails to see what is so great about feeling great about oneself without any accomplisments to justify such feelings.

What I find so interesting, Eut, is that you have created a myth and live by it as though it is identifiable fact. This 'PC bullshit' of telling people 'you are so great' for no reason...is a lie. The reality is much more practical. Praise for 'nothing' is not a tactic used by educators, by parents, by anyone sane...not even the PC groups. In fact, your description of building self-esteem is right in line with what 'PC' groups try to do. Praise for little things...praise for colouring in the lines, praise for tying one's shoes, praise for trying at a game even when the outcome is loss.

PC, for you, is this great-big boogeyman of things that don't make sense, a big, ugly strawman.

Yes, exactly. Read his reaction to my post that competing with others is not necessary to goal-setting.

Actually, it's not that rare, in fact. Children frequently seek to be more like older siblings in that regard. You attacked the idea of "self-esteem" being a virtue of its own and the point of those that advocate not making competition the focus of self-esteem is not that goals can never be suggested or encouraged by anyone outside, but that goals should be about improving on one's own performance and not how we rate against the performance of others. That's the point of "love the skin you're in".
"Self-esteem" should, IMHO, never be a goal in and of itself. The real world doesn't work that way. There is, after all, such a thing as competition. It's part of the way the entire animal kingdom is constructed. To pretend otherwise is disengenuous in the extreme.

Yes, I do find "PC" rather disgusting, perhaps because it has been so abused, misused, and confused for actual accomplishment. When "PC-speak" misleads a child into believing his shit doesn't stink because he's so frakking great, it only leads to future frustration when a prospective employer ( for example ) fails to see what is so great about feeling great about oneself without any accomplisments to justify such feelings.

Yes, but you're arguing about a version of PC that virtually does not exist. It's like the people who argue that feminism is almost entirely about promoting women rather than equality and use terms like, "feminazi". They're boogeymen that don't exist or are nearly impossible to find. Show us where anyone suggested just telling people they're great no matter what? Otherwise, it's just a strawman YOU dragged into the conversation.

Yes, I do find "PC" rather disgusting, perhaps because it has been so abused, misused, and confused for actual accomplishment. When "PC-speak" misleads a child into believing his shit doesn't stink because he's so frakking great, it only leads to future frustration when a prospective employer ( for example ) fails to see what is so great about feeling great about oneself without any accomplisments to justify such feelings.

See? You are demonising a concept, using it as the catch-all phrase for things that make no sense to you. Everything that is silly, and bad, is 'PC'. That is your definition. Again, that defnition does not reflect a reality. Perhaps it needs another name...we'll call it 'Eut's strawman'.

Yes, exactly. Read his reaction to my post that competing with others is not necessary to goal-setting.
What are you on about? I was agreeing with you, at least in part. :confused:

"Self-esteem" should, IMHO, never be a goal in and of itself. The real world doesn't work that way. There is, after all, such a thing as competition. It's part of the way the entire animal kingdom is constructed. To pretend otherwise is disengenuous in the extreme.

The way people promote self-esteem is not by removing them from the world, but preparing them for it. My friend Doug could try as hard as he likes to play basketball in the NBA, but given that he's about 5'2", that's not going to happen. Self-esteem isn't sans self-awareness. You've constructed another boogeyman. Self-esteem is about capitalizing on your assets while downplaying the faults you cannot change and changing the ones you can (assuming there is a benefit to doing so).

I love that you made up this idea that no one here espoused and then started arguing it vehemently as if we've suggested it. Do you know what a strawman is?

WTF, over? Goals are both "other-imposed" and "self-imposed." Rare indeed is the child who initiaties his/her own potty-training.

As a child begins to initiate things own their own, the wise parent will praise and reward.
my kids set their own goals but I suppose I guide them since I am the one that started the "goal setting meetings" every week. Where we set short term, medium term, and long term goals.

My 4 year old potty trained herself, I bought underwear and said "when you are ready to use the potty you can have them" she decided one day that she was ready, and the rest is history.

Doing the same thing with my 2 year old, she has set a goal to begin using the potty full time on Friday.

"Self-esteem" should, IMHO, never be a goal in and of itself. The real world doesn't work that way. There is, after all, such a thing as competition. It's part of the way the entire animal kingdom is constructed. To pretend otherwise is disengenuous in the extreme.
There is such a thing as competition, but certainly not in all things. Children are neurologically incapable of competing with others until a certain age. Their focus, from birth to about age 5, is almost completely internal. Toddlers do not play together, they play in tandem. Colouring a piece of paper is not about doing better than the other kid, it is wholly a self-imposed set of criteria. Self-esteem is not wholly about competition, or about outside stimulus...that is physically impossible for children of a certain age, but in no way means they have no concept or need for self-esteem.

What you are actually objecting to, is self-esteem based on failure. You are objecting to baseless arrogance. You are objecting to unjustifiable pride. Someone who feels good about themselves, despite being a useless worker, is not necessarily someone who has self-esteem based on being a GOOD worker...more likely, their self-esteem is based on something else. Because they don't feel miserable about themselves, and hate themselves for being a crappy worker, does not mean their self-esteem is in no way justified.

See? You are demonising a concept, using it as the catch-all phrase for things that make no sense to you. Everything that is silly, and bad, is 'PC'. That is your definition. Again, that defnition does not reflect a reality. Perhaps it needs another name...we'll call it 'Eut's strawman'.
I disagree. Talk to any employer about the expectations of those she or he interviews for open positions. Uniformly they will mention the increasingly high percentages of self-important young people who have such high "self-esteem" that they expect to be CEO within a year after having been hired as mailroom helper.

What are you on about? I was agreeing with you, at least in part. :confused:

You are constructing a boogeyman. I don't know anyone whose concept of self-esteem matches the one you are arguing against. I've never seen it argued that kids should have no goals or that they should be rewarded for not meeting them. You argue against a political boogeyman espoused by a very small minority of people. It's much like arguing about the evil Christian who is banging down your door and trying to force you to worship Jesus. It's a boogeyman, the vast, vast, vast majority of people who are Christian or Muslim or feminists or promoting self-esteem are reasonable people who simply have a set of beliefs that they promote.

see? and that is my question. Do my children excel because they have good self esteem or do they have good self esteem because they excel?damn good question. and if you figure out the true answer, please, write a book.
I think it is both. Children try because they think they can do it. that is a result of their self esteem. Success, in turn, builds more.

This is where I agree, but disagree with eut. It is important to build some self esteem, but not to the insane level we tend to do it. We tend to reward children for the dumbest things, while letting true accomplishments go ignored. Using purple pens so as to not upset the child, etc. doesn't help the child. They need to have pride in their mistakes just as much as they have pride in their success. I can sit here and say "damn right I messed up. But atleast I tried". Teaching a child that a mistake is shameful stops them from even trying in the first place out of fear of that shame.

Holy Tangent, Batman!

I disagree. Talk to any employer about the expectations of those she or he interviews for open positions. Uniformly they will mention the increasingly high percentages of self-important young people who have such high "self-esteem" that they expect to be CEO within a year after having been hired as mailroom helper.
You are talking about arrogance, not necessarily self-esteem. The two are linked, that's for sure, but one does not equate the other. What you are doing is equivalent to saying that dislike equals hatred. The terms do not have the same connotations. Unreal expectations are not the inherent outcome of 'self-esteem'.

The way people promote self-esteem is not by removing them from the world, but preparing them for it. My friend Doug could try as hard as he likes to play basketball in the NBA, but given that he's about 5'2", that's not going to happen. Self-esteem isn't sans self-awareness. You've constructed another boogeyman. Self-esteem is about capitalizing on your assets while downplaying the faults you cannot change and changing the ones you can (assuming there is a benefit to doing so).

I love that you made up this idea that no one here espoused and then started arguing it vehemently as if we've suggested it. Do you know what a strawman is?
No. I have no idea what a "strawman" is. Sigh. :rolleyes:

I am simply pointing out that "building self-esteem" without helping generate a series of ever-increasing accomplishments is a questionable objective at best. I've seen this happen time and time again, where people ( usually misguided teachers ) attempt to "build self-esteem" as a stand-alone objective.

What is so hard to understand about this, and why on earth would you consider it a "strawman?" :confused:

I disagree. Talk to any employer about the expectations of those she or he interviews for open positions. Uniformly they will mention the increasingly high percentages of self-important young people who have such high "self-esteem" that they expect to be CEO within a year after having been hired as mailroom helper.

When were young people ever not self-important. Eut, please don't become one of these "in my day" curmudgeons who has actually forgotten that when you were young the kids of your day were just as stupid and silly and vain and self-assured.

I do interview young people and have been doing so for over a decade and I've not seen any change in the way young people enter the interview process. Perhaps your error is in the people whose opinion you've chosen to trust.

EDIT: By the way, I was one of those self-important young people and I started out at a software company at 19 stuffing boxes with no experience in the computer industry. I was a vice-president before my 20th birthday. Self-esteem and arrogance are not equal. I had high self-esteem and when I found a way to do so, I proved why it was justified. Sometimes people who you feel have unjustified self-esteem are simply self-aware and untested.

I am simply pointing out that "building self-esteem" without helping generate a series of ever-increasing accomplishments is a questionable objective at best. I've seen this happen time and time again, where people ( usually misguided teachers ) attempt to "build self-esteem" as a stand-alone objective. I challenge you to give examples. Building self-esteem with no outside criteria is an impossibility. You are constructing an argument about a 'PC practice' that can not actually exist in real life.

No. I have no idea what a "strawman" is. Sigh. :rolleyes:

I am simply pointing out that "building self-esteem" without helping generate a series of ever-increasing accomplishments is a questionable objective at best. I've seen this happen time and time again, where people ( usually misguided teachers ) attempt to "build self-esteem" as a stand-alone objective.

What is so hard to understand about this, and why on earth would you consider it a "strawman?" :confused:

Yes, but who suggested that there shouldn't be ever-increasing accomplishments? No one here. We simply said YOU don't get to define what those accomplishments are.

What you believe has nothing to do with it. You are wrongly encapsulating what we believe. That's a strawman.

We tend to reward children for the dumbest things, while letting true accomplishments go ignored. Using purple pens so as to not upset the child, etc. doesn't help the child. They need to have pride in their mistakes just as much as they have pride in their success. I can sit here and say "damn right I messed up. But atleast I tried". Teaching a child that a mistake is shameful stops them from even trying in the first place out of fear of that shame.
I completely agree! There! Try to turn THAT into a "strawman!" :p

damn good question. and if you figure out the true answer, please, write a book. I think it is both. Children try because they think they can do it. that is a result of their self esteem. Success, in turn, builds more.
The "true answer" is that the child is the recipient of a parent's unconditional love, which is something I pointed out in an earlier post. If a child feels loved, self-esteem will not be an issue.

Yes, but who suggested that there shouldn't be ever-increasing accomplishments? No one here. We simply said YOU don't get to define what those accomplishments are.

What you believe has nothing to do with it. You are wrongly encapsulating what we believe. That's a strawman.
Ah HA! You think I was accusing someone in this thread of trying to build self-esteem apart from the accomplishments on which true self-esteem is based?

Please point out where I accused anyone on here of so doing and I will immediately post a retraction. :)

Ah HA! You think I was accusing someone in this thread of trying to build self-esteem apart from the accomplishments on which true self-esteem is based?

Please point out where I accused anyone on here of so doing and I will immediately post a retraction. :)

"Buliding self-esteem" is just more of the same damned politically correct bullshit. God, I wish we would get over this crap!

The way to make people feel good about themselves is to insure they actually accomplish things, even if they're little things at first, so that that have an actual, you know .... like, reason to esteem themselves! Sheesh!

Hmmmm... perhaps you weren't addressing anyone in the thread and were just trolling. Or perhaps you were just arguing against a boogeyman? Either way, building self-esteem does not reference building arrogance no matter how many times you cry about that boogeyman.

because it's like Grandma said "beauty fades, but dumb is forever"

Excellent proverb, one of the best I've heard in a while. So true.

Why does everyone have to be beautiful? I don't understand. Isn't it enough to think that you are smart, funny, caring, a good friend, ect.? why is there the assumption that someone has to like their physical appearance? I know I am not beautiful, it doesn't really bother me, why does it bother other people?

So the little girl doesn't like her freckles? big deal. Can't she like her sense of humor, or her athletic ability?

it doesn't bother anyone that I don't think I am all that coordinated and that I lack dancing skills, but the beauty thing bothers them?

The whole thing seems superficial to me.

Then I started wondering about self esteem in general do you get it from actually being things (smart, pretty, funny) or do you become those things because you believe you are?

what do you think?
I agree, self-esteem for me is not about looks. Self-confidence is, to a limited extent, but not self-esteem. My self-esteem took blows a few times in my life --incidents related to job, relationship and alcoholism --but never about looks.

I think you get it from being good at things, from acquiring and developing skills.

By the way, nice readable-sized font. ;)

Hmmmm... perhaps you weren't addressing anyone in the thread and were just trolling. Or perhaps you were just arguing against a boogeyman? Either way, building self-esteem does not reference building arrogance no matter how many times you cry about that boogeyman.
I've seen it happen within my own frame of reference.

Next time I decide to go on a rant, I will make sure to place it within brackets. :p

I've seen it happen within my own frame of reference.

Next time I decide to go on a rant, I will make sure to place it within brackets. :p

Fair enough. However, don't expect us to be any less likely to point out the boogeyman.

Eut, I think the reason people react as they do to you is that you tend to react to the extreme fringes as if they are common. You may have seen it happen, but I'm certain you're aware that what you're arguing against is not something widely held.

I was one of those self-important young people and I started out at a software company at 19 stuffing boxes with no experience in the computer industry. I was a vice-president before my 20th birthday. Self-esteem and arrogance are not equal. I had high self-esteem and when I found a way to do so, I proved why it was justified. Sometimes people who you feel have unjustified self-esteem are simply self-aware and untested.
You are aware, are you not, that this would represent the rare exception rather than the rule?

Fair enough. However, don't expect us to be any less likely to point out the boogeyman.

Eut, I think the reason people react as they do to you is that you tend to react to the extreme fringes as if they are common. You may have seen it happen, but I'm certain you're aware that what you're arguing against is not something widely held.
Yes, I do tend to react to extremes of virtually anything.

Nowhere did I indicate that it is wrong to build a child's self-esteem, only that it was wrong to base attempts to do so on anything other than actual accomplishments. I have seen teachers, even here in North Carolina, set "building self-esteem" as a goal in and of itself without any linkage whatsoever to accomplishment of any sort. This is nothing more than setting the child up to fail later on in life. If the shoe doesn't fit, then don't wear the damned thing. :)

You are aware, are you not, that this would represent the rare exception rather than the rule?

Of course, but the point is that I accomplished it because I was one of those silly young people who was way too big for his britches but happened to be in the right place at the right time. Take away any of those factors and you don't get the result. The 31-year-old version of myself would not have been silly enough to expect that outcome so I would have focused on more reasonable goals. The 19-year-old version said, "what do I have to lose," and took the all-or-nothing route that happend to turn out well.

Being idealistic and headstrong is what young people do. Show me a world full of wizened and cynical young people and I will show you a world I weep for.

Fortunately, it's not likely to ever happen. Wishing for young people to act like forty-year-olds is like wishing for teenagers to have a good body image. It's not bloody likely.

Of course, but the point is that I accomplished it because I was one of those silly young people who was way too big for his britches but happened to be in the right place at the right time. Take away any of those factors and you don't get the result. The 31-year-old version of myself would not have been silly enough to expect that outcome so I would have focused on more reasonable goals. The 19-year-old version said, "what do I have to lose," and took the all-or-nothing route that happend to turn out well.

Being idealistic and headstrong is what young people do. Show me a world full of wizened and cynical young people and I will show you a world I weep for.

Fortunately, it's not likely to ever happen. Wishing for young people to act like forty-year-olds is like wishing for teenagers to have a good body image. It's not bloody likely.
My first impulse with this post of yours was to respond with sarcasm because of your characterizations ( e.g. "too big for his britches," "wizened," "cynical." etc. ), but I won't do that because I happen to believe that any young person who has the self-confidence to undertake a leap of that nature, and make it stick, has my admiration. In some cases "he who dares, does." But you have to admit that many of those whose "self-esteem" has been artificially inflated, and who have the sort of opportunity you had, simply wind up falling flat on their ass. Not because they could not handle such a leap if they had the necessary skills and experience, but because they were over-reaching their capabilities. The same thing could be said of many "wizened, cynical" older people, some of whom still have an over-inflated opinion of themselves. [ Yes, I realize that I'm leading with my chin on this one. ] :D

By the way, nice readable-sized font. ;)
I have no clue what's up with the font, but I have been too lazy to go fix it, also one of my posts says "last edited by <someone I don't know>" jolt is screwy today.

My first impulse with this post of yours was to respond with sarcasm because of your characterizations ( e.g. "too big for his britches," "wizened," "cynical." etc. ), but I won't do that because I happen to believe that any young person who has the self-confidence to undertake a leap of that nature, and make it stick, has my admiration. In some cases "he who dares, does." But you have to admit that many of those whose "self-esteem" has been artificially inflated, and who have the sort of opportunity you had, simply wind up falling flat on their ass. Not because they could not handle such a leap if they had the necessary skills and experience, but because they were over-reaching their capabilities. The same thing could be said of many "wizened, cynical" older people, some of whom still have an over-inflated opinion of themselves. [ Yes, I realize that I'm leading with my chin on this one. ] :D

Young people are supposed to fall flat on their ass. That's how they become wizened and cynical. And good on them for trying. Would you really want to live in a world where young people stopped overreaching, ever? I love watching the game there. I love watching kids who reach out repeatedly and try to grab a star just because every once in a while one of them does. And all of us are too rational to try something so silly.

I don't miss being younger, stronger, faster, more resillient, having a smoother face, etc. I do miss having a ridiculous faith in what could be accomplished with enough effort. I accomplished some amazing things in my time, but the one thing I failed at was clinging the only part of childhood worth holding onto. People argue that youth is wasted on the young. I disagree entirely. It would sad to have all that energy in a ball that had decided that bouncing was a waste of time.

Yes, young people waste unfathomable amounts of energy reaching for goals they can't possibly reach, but I'll say it's worth it just to know that it means that the one that will reach will have just enough to do so.

Yes, they annoy us by generally thinking they have way more experience in the world than they do (just as I probably annoy you for the same reason), but God love them for doing it.

Yeah, sometimes I let the softballs go by.

Young people are supposed to fall flat on their ass. That's how they become wizened and cynical. And good on them for trying. Would you really want to live in a world where young people stopped overreaching, ever? I love watching the game there. I love watching kids who reach out repeatedly and try to grab a star just because every once in a while one of them does. And all of us are too rational to try something so silly.

I don't miss being younger, stronger, faster, more resillient, having a smoother face, etc. I do miss having a ridiculous faith in what could be accomplished with enough effort. I accomplished some amazing things in my time, but the one thing I failed at was clinging the only part of childhood worth holding onto. People argue that youth is wasted on the young. I disagree entirely. It would sad to have all that energy in a ball that had decided that bouncing was a waste of time.

Yes, young people waste unfathomable amounts of energy reaching for goals they can't possibly reach, but I'll say it's worth it just to know that it means that the one that will reach will have just enough to do so.

Yes, they annoy us by generally thinking they have way more experience in the world than they do (just as I probably annoy you for the same reason), but God love them for doing it.
Two things:

1. I've written several songs for my 16 year old grandaughter to sing and am currently looking for someone to write the music for them. When she has at least one of them down pat, I'm going to retain a studio to create a video of her singing it, then implement a plan to make her into a singing star.

2. I still hope to get my Ph.D.

Some folks just never give up. :D

I have very low self-esteem and whenever I think I couldn't go any lower I find a way to do it. Which gives me a sense of accomplishment.

Mmm... and I'm proud of it! So, yeah!

Two things:

1. I've written several songs for my 16 year old grandaughter to sing and am currently looking for someone to write the music for them. When she has at least one of them down pat, I'm going to retain a studio to create a video of her singing it, then implement a plan to make her into a singing star.

2. I still hope to get my Ph.D.

Some folks just never give up. :D

We're all goofballs. That's the point.

I hope my children make out with someone that doesn't merit a conversation let alone that kind of attention though I'll actually do everything I can to discourage such actions like any good parent would. I hope my children drive over a hundred once in their lives, sneak out to visit someone they love, skinnydip, try pot, skip a class, get way too drunk when they're still in high school and I intend to punish them for every one of those actions. I hope my children make lots of mistakes and I'll wince as every one of them happens and pray they learned everything possible from it. At the same time, I'll do everything I can to protect them from consequences that will work against them their whole lives.

I view parenting, aging, growing up, falling in love, the whole ball of wax as just one big contradiction. We fight for things we don't want. Want things we're unwilling to fight for or will never have. Love the unlovable. And we try to rationalize all of it. I know we do it and you know we do it. Just don't forget that they're supposed to do it too.

EDIT: Yes, I know you were agreeing with me. I just love talking like this.

Two things:

1. I've written several songs for my 16 year old grandaughter to sing and am currently looking for someone to write the music for them. When she has at least one of them down pat, I'm going to retain a studio to create a video of her singing it, then implement a plan to make her into a singing star.
That is great, as long as she wants to be a "singing star".

2. I still hope to get my Ph.D.
You already have one. Everywhere you look on these threads, you have it Piled Higher Deeper.

Some folks just never give up. :D
You need to try harder. :p

We're all goofballs. That's the point.

I hope my children make out with someone that doesn't merit a conversation let alone that kind of attention though I'll actually do everything I can to discourage such actions like any good parent would. I hope my children drive over a hundred once in their lives, sneak out to visit someone they love, skinnydip, try pot, skip a class, get way too drunk when they're still in high school and I intend to punish them for every one of those actions. I hope my children make lots of mistakes and I'll wince as every one of them happens and pray they learned everything possible from it. At the same time, I'll do everything I can to protect them from consequences that will work against them their whole lives.

I view parenting, aging, growing up, falling in love, the whole ball of wax as just one big contradiction. We fight for things we don't want. Want things we're unwilling to fight for or will never have. Love the unlovable. And we try to rationalize all of it. I know we do it and you know we do it. Just don't forget that they're supposed to do it too.

EDIT: Yes, I know you were agreeing with me. I just love talking like this.
LOL! Kewl.

Failure is often the best teacher. We grow too soon old and too late smart, and youth is wasted on the young. :D

1. That is great, as long as she wants to be a "singing star".

2. You already have one. Everywhere you look on these threads, you have it Piled Higher Deeper.

3. You need to try harder. :p
1. She does.

2. I do??? Funny thing about that ... must have forgotten to write it down! :p

3. WTF, over? :confused:

LOL! Kewl.

Failure is often the best teacher. We grow too soon old and too late smart, and youth is wasted on the young. :D

I knew I could get you to say it. I still disagree. If we were twenty again we would waste all that youth NOT doing stupid things. What a waste that would be? What else is so much energy for?

I knew I could get you to say it. I still disagree. If we were twenty again we would waste all that youth NOT doing stupid things. What a waste that would be? What else is so much energy for?
Heh! There was a period in my life where I suspected I was trying to corner the market on "doing stupid things." :D

Heh! There was a period in my life where I suspected I was trying to corner the market on "doing stupid things." :D

For my part, I wish my efforts in that area were done. They are unfortunately not. And I don't have the energy to deal with the consequences. ;)

For my part, I wish my efforts in that area were done. They are unfortunately not. And I don't have the energy to deal with the consequences. ;)
I can't say the same thing. I learned this little trick of converting percieved mistakes into percieved accomplishments. And, no, I will not tell you how! After all, at your age, you should be able to figure this sort of thing out for yourself! :D

I can't say the same thing. I learned this little trick of converting percieved mistakes into percieved accomplishments. And, no, I will not tell you how! After all, at your age, you should be able to figure this sort of thing out for yourself! :D

Oh, I see the silver lining, but it's lot easier to say that you're looking at the experience of it and how you better yourself as a result, but it doesn't make that terrible feeling of being an IDIOT go away.

Oh, I see the silver lining, but it's lot easier to say that you're looking at the experience of it and how you better yourself as a result, but it doesn't make that terrible feeling of being an IDIOT go away.
LOL! Duh! :D

Yes, I do tend to react to extremes of virtually anything.

Nowhere did I indicate that it is wrong to build a child's self-esteem, only that it was wrong to base attempts to do so on anything other than actual accomplishments. I have seen teachers, even here in North Carolina, set "building self-esteem" as a goal in and of itself without any linkage whatsoever to accomplishment of any sort. This is nothing more than setting the child up to fail later on in life. If the shoe doesn't fit, then don't wear the damned thing. :)
you cant build your childs self esteem, you can only destroy it.

as you know, (and as i know you know because you said it before) people build self esteem through accomplishments. when they try hard to do something difficult and succeed at it, they build a good self image.

a good parent says 2 things when their child attempts something difficult: "good try" if he tries and fails and "good job" when he tries and succeeds.

if he doesnt try hard, he doesnt deserve praise. either he fails for good reason or he succeeds at something that was easy. big deal. not that im saying you should degrade him for it. you just dont praise for something that doesnt merit praise.

its part of never lying to your child. praising a kid for something he doesnt deserve praise for sets off his "bullshit meter" and he wonders why you felt the need to lie to him. this creates the same kind of self doubt that actual insults do. if your child coasts through his math class and ends up with a "C" he knows he doesnt deserve your compliment. he is insulted that you praise him for crap. (if he worked hard and only got a "C" its fine to compliment him on staying with the struggle)

children who are praised for everything they do become "praise junkies". all they strive for is recognition, not competence. they become horrible brats who insist on attention for every single thing they ever do.

I have seen teachers, even here in North Carolina, set "building self-esteem" as a goal in and of itself without any linkage whatsoever to accomplishment of any sort.
I'm still waiting for you to provide examples of how that is done. Not sources...I'll even take your anecdotal evidence on this one. How are teachers over there in North Carolina implementing this building of self-esteen 'without any linkage whatsover to accomplishment of any sort'?

I'm still waiting for you to provide examples of how that is done. Not sources...I'll even take your anecdotal evidence on this one. How are teachers over there in North Carolina implementing this building of self-esteen 'without any linkage whatsover to accomplishment of any sort'?
children who are praised for everything they do become "praise junkies". all they strive for is recognition, not competence. they become horrible brats who insist on attention for every single thing they ever do.
What she said. :p

I'm still waiting for you to provide examples of how that is done. Not sources...I'll even take your anecdotal evidence on this one. How are teachers over there in North Carolina implementing this building of self-esteen 'without any linkage whatsover to accomplishment of any sort'?
I don't know about North Carolina, but the kids here aren't allowed to get lower than a 50 and a 50 is a C, if by some chance they get a whole class that fails miserably they get this screwed up curve going where the decide that the highest grade is perfect and then mess with all the ones below to even things out, so you end up getting a kid on the honor roll because of straight "A's" when his actual average is 43% but since he can't "get less than 50" and his 49 on that assignment was the highest then he got a perfect score. I feel sorry for the kid when he gets out into the "real world" and everyone isn't interested in making him feel good about himself because face it 43% isn't passing anywhere except this school. I feel like he is going to be in for a very rude awakening right now he thinks he is doing the best possible when he isn't actually even getting what most would consider a high failing grade.

What she said. :p
Sorry, not good enough. Vague references by other posters are not going to cut it. Give me a concrete example of how you have seen a teacher implement a system of building self-esteem based on nothing.

I don't know about North Carolina, but the kids here aren't allowed to get lower than a 50 and a 50 is a C, if by some chance they get a whole class that fails miserably they get this screwed up curve going where the decide that the highest grade is perfect and then mess with all the ones below to even things out, so you end up getting a kid on the honor roll because of straight "A's" when his actual average is 43% but since he can't "get less than 50" and his 49 on that assignment was the highest then he got a perfect score. I feel sorry for the kid when he gets out into the "real world" and everyone isn't interested in making him feel good about himself because face it 43% isn't passing anywhere except this school. I feel like he is going to be in for a very rude awakening right now he thinks he is doing the best possible when he isn't actually even getting what most would consider a high failing grade.


50 is a C? Yikes! *shakes head*

50 is a C? Yikes! *shakes head*
yep, unless everyone gets one then whoever get's highest score is what an A is.

Like this

Jimmy 90% A
Bobby 80% A
Sally 45% = changed to 50% C
Roger 30%= changed to 50% C

or

Jimmy 13% = changed to 50 C
Kathy 27% = changed to 50 C
Alice 43% = changed to 100% A
Mary 34%= changed to 80% B

it sucks.

yep, unless everyone gets one then whoever get's highest score is what an A is.

Like this

Jimmy 90% A
Bobby 80% A
Sally 45% = changed to 50% C
Roger 30%= changed to 50% C

or

Jimmy 13% = changed to 50 C
Kathy 27% = changed to 50 C
Alice 43% = changed to 100% A
Mary 34%= changed to 80% B

it sucks.

:eek: Thats terrible.

:eek: Thats terrible.
and my kids are homeschooled :D

I let my 4 year old make her own grading scale. Everything under 75% is failing, she said statistically you can get 25% to 50% right on most of her assignments by guessing, so if you really can't get more than 75% you don't know what you are doing.

You know, they had the bell curve thing in University, the first time I'd ever seen it. It was terrible! You might do a bang up job on an essay, but only a certain percentage of students could get the highest marks, and a certain number had to fail, even if everyone did awesome. It never worked in your favour...not in my experience anyway...never bumping your marks up or anything. It just meant that if you had a class full of good students, some of them ended up failing ANYWAY so that the course didn't appear to be 'too easy'. Grrrr!

It IS true, however, that in most schools, students can not fail a grade and be held back without extreme intervention on the part of the parent (making the parent the bad guy). This is why you get kids working on Grade 3 material in Grade 4...and when they get good marks on their report card, many parents simply don't understand that their child is doing well on the Grade 3 material...not at the Grade 4 level. I don't know what the motivation for this policy is...teachers certainly don't like it...all of a sudden we have to teach three different grade levels in a class? Self-esteem? That hardly makes sense...the kids KNOW that little Johnny is doing 'dumbed down' work, and the teasing is relentless.

But I am losing all faith in the education system anyway.