NationStates Jolt Archive

It's the language of the majority, it makes things easier, and helps intergration. And most countries that have that problem use major world languages, such as English, French and German. Business languages.

Well, that's just what I think.

Countries that have official languages generally do enforce them. What countries don't enforce their official language?

An official language is just the language in which the government conducts business. As such almost all countries enforce them.

That doesn't mean that other languages are banned or services not provided in those languages.

Well, that's just what I think.

Once again, you demonstrate that you think wrong.

Countries that have official languages generally do enforce them. What countries don't enforce their official language?

Well, United States has trouble. I'm not sure if they have an official language, but the de facto official language is English, and it's needs to be better taught to immigrants and such.

Australia has some issues with it too, I've seen on TV lately.

Once again, you demonstrate that you think wrong.

So you don't think immigrants should be taught the official language of the country they move to?

Well, United States has trouble.
United States has no official language.

So you don't think immigrants should be taught the official language of the country they move to?
It's up to the immigrants themselves to learn the de facto language. You cannot force integration.

United States has no official language.

Fair enough. But the de facto official language is English, as the majority speak it. I think better effort should be made to teach people the language. Unreasonable?

It's up to the immigrants themselves to learn the de facto language. You cannot force integration.

I think it should be forced, to a degree. People need to learn the language.

Well, United States has trouble. I'm not sure if they have an official language, but the de facto official language is English, and it's needs to be better taught to immigrants and such.


But the de facto official language is English, as the majority speak it.

Surely a de facto official thing is really an unofficial thing?

I think it should be forced, to a degree. People need to learn the language.
If they needed to learn the language, they would. If they can get along in life quite happily without it, why bother?

Surely a de facto official thing is really an unofficial thing?

Well duh. But when the population of a country speak one language, shouldn't immigrants be made to learn it?

If they needed to learn the language, they would. If they can get along in life quite happily without it, why bother?

For the most part, they would. If they want to go to the store or anything like that. Unless they make an ethnic enclave, which is even worse.

Well duh. But when the population of a country speak one language, shouldn't immigrants be made to learn it?

So when you state "countries need to enforce their official languages" you actually mean "countries need to enforce their unofficial languages"?

Well, United States has trouble. I'm not sure if they have an official language, but the de facto official language is English, and it's needs to be better taught to immigrants and such.

We have no official or de facto official language. Our Constitution guarantees certain freedoms for everyone in this country, regardless of language. No matter what you speak, the United States Government will provide, and is obligated to provide, an interpreter for your language.

For example, if you are arrested and you only speak Russian, you must have your Miranda rights read to you in Russian and you must be given an interpreter for all court proceedings and legal documentation.

Some things vary from state to state, of course, but the overall thing is the same. We have no official language. If anything was "de facto", it would be English and Spanish equally.

Australia has some issues with it too, I've seen on TV lately.

Obviously the quality of English spoken by characters in Australian soap-operas won't be of the standard set by even Primary School teachers. You can't take this as any indication of a general trend in Australia, can you?

So when you state "countries need to enforce their official languages" you actually mean "countries need to enforce their unofficial languages"?

Don't be an idiot. When virtually all the population speak and do business in a single language, it might as well be official, regardless of whether or not it says so on a piece of paper.

Well, United States has trouble. I'm not sure if they have an official language, but the de facto official language is English, and it's needs to be better taught to immigrants and such.
The US doesn't have an official language, but English does need to be better taught to new immigrants since having good English skills makes integration and economic success much easier for new immigrants. It shouldn't be forced, though, people would think your pushing them away from their roots and that usually creates tension. It's much better to let them see for themselves that it is a good thing.

I don't know the situation in Australia, care to share?

For the most part, they would. If they want to go to the store or anything like that. Unless they make an ethnic enclave, which is even worse.
I do agree (shock, horror!) that so-called ethnic enclaves can be bad, but I still don't think the government has any place in forcing people to learn a language if they can get by without it because then it becomes a matter of discrimination rather than integration.

We shouldn't have to force them to do anything. If they want to learn the language, then that's good and it might benefit them. But to force them is wrong.

Don't be an idiot. When virtually all the population speak and do business in a single language, it might as well be official, regardless of whether or not it says so on a piece of paper.

Unless it says it 'On a piece of paper' as you so blithely put it, it isn't official.

Don't be an idiot.

Hey, I don't appear to be the one saying one thing and meaning the opposite.*


So, what's your policy on those immigrants who are unable to learn new languages?



EDIT: * The irony of this in a thread devoted to enforcing the use of language has just struck me.

Fair enough. But the de facto official language is English, as the majority speak it. I think better effort should be made to teach people the language. Unreasonable?

It doesn't matter what the majority does. We are a Republic, not a Democracy. This country does not now, nor has it ever, done things based solely on a majority.

I don't know the situation in Australia, care to share?

Well, it's not like in America, not so bad that you can debate it. It's one of those problems that grows but you don't notice it until it's a big thing, you know?

I saw something on the news about a guy who refused service to anybody who can't speak English. The interview implied that he got alot of that, which make me think it's an up and coming issue.

Also, I'll admit that I have a friend who I can't understand 100% of the time >_<

Hey, I don't appear to be the one saying one thing and meaning the opposite.


So, what's your policy on those immigrants who are unable to learn new languages?

Actually I'd like to know that as well. I figure I know the answer, but I'd like to hear it from the horses mouth, as it were.

When virtually all the population speak and do business in a single language, it might as well be official, regardless of whether or not it says so on a piece of paper.

So when the US officially declares a dual English/Spanish language, are you prepared to be forced to learn Spanish?

We shouldn't have to force them to do anything. If they want to learn the language, then that's good and it might benefit them. But to force them is wrong.

So it's ok to have ten of thousands have people walking around who can't speak the same language as the rest of the people?

We shouldn't have to force them to do anything. If they want to learn the language, then that's good and it might benefit them. But to force them is wrong.

Why would that be wrong? In Canada, where English and French are the official languages, a basic understanding of one or the other language is necessary for citizenship. Being asked to speak the official language is a small price to pay for admittance into citizenship.

So it's ok to have ten of thousands have people walking around who can't speak the same language as the rest of the people?

Yes.

So when the US officially declares a dual English/Spanish language, are you prepared to be forced to learn Spanish?

Well, no, because I'm not American. But I don't think America should have Spanish as an official langauge. I think that it's not important enough. Business and education wise. That's why it's a secondary language in schools.

So it's ok to have ten of thousands have people walking around who can't speak the same language as the rest of the people?

Ummm....yes. I see nothing wrong with that...

So it's ok to have ten of thousands have people walking around who can't speak the same language as the rest of the people?

Yes, it's perfectly fine.

Why would that be wrong? In Canada, where English and French are the official languages, a basic understanding of one or the other language is necessary for citizenship. Being asked to speak the official language is a small price to pay for admittance into citizenship.

What he said.

Well, no, because I'm not American.

Okay, imagine you were to emigrate to Ireland - would you be prepared to be forced to learn Irish in order to gain citizenship?

Well, no, because I'm not American. But I don't think America should have Spanish as an official langauge. I think that it's not important enough. Business and education wise. That's why it's a secondary language in schools.
It's more important than German.

Why would that be wrong? In Canada, where English and French are the official languages, a basic understanding of one or the other language is necessary for citizenship.

No it isn't. You can immigrate to Canada not being able to understand a single word of French or English. Knowledge of French or English increases you 'points' when applying to immigrate, but is by NO means a requirement for Citizenship. Sorry.

Yes, it's perfectly fine.

Then you end up with ethnic enclaves. Which ends up in ethnic tension. Which ends up in Cronulla riots. Great work John.

Well, no, because I'm not American. But I don't think America should have Spanish as an official langauge. I think that it's not important enough. Business and education wise. That's why it's a secondary language in schools.
Wait a few more years. Spanish will be, if not the majority language, then the second most used language in the US. That is hardly 'not important enough'.

It's more important than German.

Of course. By miles.

Why would that be wrong? In Canada, where English and French are the official languages, a basic understanding of one or the other language is necessary for citizenship.

So, newborn infants in Canada aren't Canadian citizens until they develop language skills?

Okay, imagine you were to emigrate to Ireland - would you be prepared to be forced to learn Irish in order to gain citizenship?

No, because I already know English.

Well, no, because I'm not American. But I don't think America should have Spanish as an official langauge.

If you're not American, then what you think doesn't matter. Spend a few years here and be astounded by the staggering number of Spanish speaking people in this country.

Why don't you focus on your own country?

So, newborn infants in Canada aren't Canadian citizens until they develop language skills?

You win the thread.

Wait a few more years. Spanish will be, if not the majority language, then the second most used language in the US. That is hardly 'not important enough'.

Well, then they should take a "one or the other approach." English or Spanish.

What he said.
What he said is wrong.

Then you end up with ethnic enclaves. Which ends up in ethnic tension. Which ends up in Cronulla riots. Great work John.

If anything it is the ability to understand what other ethnic enclaves are saying which tends to lead to ethnic tension, rather than the inability to understand them.

So it's ok to have ten of thousands have people walking around who can't speak the same language as the rest of the people?

Don't exaggerate. Many of them drive cars. :)

If you're not American, then what you think doesn't matter. Spend a few years here and be astounded by the staggering number of Spanish speaking people in this country.

Why don't you focus on your own country?

Nice way to change the subject. This is an issue for every country in the world with immigration: America, Australia, Europe.

Then you end up with ethnic enclaves. Which ends up in ethnic tension. Which ends up in Cronulla riots. Great work John.
Yeah...there are regular riots in every Chinatown, Little Italy, and Thaitown across the country...it's become so familiar in Canada that we don't even notice it anymore. Oh wait. That's not true...we don't notice, because the riots don't actually happen. Hmmm.

So, newborn infants in Canada aren't Canadian citizens until they develop language skills?

There's a difference between "I am unable to learn a language" and "I am too damn lazy to learn a language."

Then you end up with ethnic enclaves. Which ends up in ethnic tension.

Maybe in your country, but not in mine. Ethnic tensions come in when some white college students go burn down predominantly black churches, but nobody here complains about, say, Houston's Vietnamese district.

As a matter of fact, if you go to "Little Vietnam" in Houston, you'll suddenly find all the street signs in English and Vietnamese.

We are a country of diversity and we like it that way.

No, because I already know English.

So what, Irish is the first official language, while English is the second. Are you now claiming that only some official languages should be enforced (whilst also claiming that unofficial languages should also be enforced)?

Of course. By miles.
Then there should be no problem making Spanish a 'de facto' language in the US. In many places in the southern US Spanish is a majority language. I believe it's even an official language for the state of Arizona.

Being spoken by around 500 million people around the world also makes it a very important language for business and culture.

Yeah...there are regular riots in every Chinatown, Little Italy, and Thaitown across the country...it's become so familiar in Canada that we don't even notice it anymore. Oh wait. That's not true...we don't notice, because the riots don't actually happen. Hmmm.

I can't speak for America, but here in Australia, Chinatown and Little Italy are commercial districts. If they didn't speak English they'd be out of business.

Well, then they should take a "one or the other approach." English or Spanish.
How silly! A 'one or the other' approach? Bilingual, and trilingual countries seem to do just fine...are you perhaps projecting your inability to learn another language onto the citizens of other nations? If Canada can get by with French and English, surely our neighbours to the south are capable of having a bilingual system, considering that their language other than English would be much more widely spoken than ours? I mean...I'm not a fan of the government there, but the people are hardly morons.

There's a difference between "I am unable to learn a language" and "I am too damn lazy to learn a language."

Avoiding the question (although, to be fair, that one wasn't addressed to you).

So what about those potential immigrants who are unable to learn a language?

Nice way to change the subject. This is an issue for every country in the world with immigration: America, Australia, Europe.

I'm not changing the subject. I am curious, though, as to why you're calling for the globalisation of English, but refuse the globalisation of diversity.

We'll keep the US just the way it is, thanks. We're doing just fine.

So what, Irish is the first official language, while English is the second. Are you now claiming that only some official languages should be enforced (whilst also claiming that unofficial languages should also be enforced)?

And it says that... where?

Even so, one official language is enough.

There's a difference between "I am unable to learn a language" and "I am too damn lazy to learn a language."
Which category do newborns fall into?

Then there should be no problem making Spanish a 'de facto' language in the US. In many places in the southern US Spanish is a majority language. I believe it's even an official language for the state of Arizona.

Being spoken by around 500 million people around the world also makes it a very important language for business and culture.

How many Americans speak Spanish as their primary language for life, business, etc.? If it's more than 30-40%, then you've got a deal.

And it says that... where?

In the Bunreacht na hÉireann, which should be good enough authority to settle the matter.

Then you end up with ethnic enclaves. Which ends up in ethnic tension. Which ends up in Cronulla riots. Great work John.
I think the last ethnic riots in Toronto happened about 60 years ago, in the Christie pits, and there were decidedly less immigrants then, less diverse, and in a fewer number of enclaves than there are now.

Ethnic riots are more likely to happen when you adopt a policy of forced integration.

Yeah...there are regular riots in every Chinatown, Little Italy, and Thaitown across the country...it's become so familiar in Canada that we don't even notice it anymore. Oh wait. That's not true...we don't notice, because the riots don't actually happen. Hmmm.

Yeah, the same in Britain. We can't go a day without riots in our 'Ethnic Enclaves' and random racist vigilantes attacking ethnic minorities...

Avoiding the question (although, to be fair, that one wasn't addressed to you).

So what about those potential immigrants who are unable to learn a language?

Such as who?

Which category do newborns fall into?

The first one. Duh.

The first one. Duh.
Save the 'Duh' for yourself. You've just stated that newborns are unable to learn a language. What a 'duh' statement.

Yeah, the same in Britain. We can't go a day without riots in our 'Ethnic Enclaves' and random racist vigilantes attacking ethnic minorities...

Whereas in Northern Ireland, where the two communities speak and share a common language, we do actually see conflict...

I'm not changing the subject. I am curious, though, as to why you're calling for the globalisation of English, but refuse the globalisation of diversity.

We'll keep the US just the way it is, thanks. We're doing just fine.

I'm calling for the globolisation of majority languages in their respective countries.

Even so, one official language is enough.

Enough for you, maybe. I take it you don't speak any other languages than your native? I, personally, find that sad. Why would you limit your own cultural experience so much?

If you want to go by "majority rules" and the globalisation of a language, then I suggest we all learn Mandarin Chinese. English is a blip on the radar.

Such as who?

The mentally handicapped are probably the clearest case, or if you want a slightly more difficult case how about those who are deaf and blind?

you know it kinda does annoy me that when I call my utility company that English isn't the default language, but what annoys me more is that some of my tax clients don't understand enough basic English for me to talk to them about their income tax, now I am learning Spanish as fast as I can, but I worry that my clients are being taken advantage of in other areas in life, how did they get a mortgage, do they understand what their intrest rate is? are they being taken advantage of by lenders?

it worries me.

I really think that if you are going to live in a country where the major language is one other than your own, for your own safety you should make every effort to learn it. (yes, I am very aware that English is one of the hardest languages to learn)

Oh, nevermind. You freaking people. Voltaire and Montesquieu are spinning in their graves.

How many Americans speak Spanish as their primary language for life, business, etc.? If it's more than 30-40%, then you've got a deal.
Americans? About 60%. People in the US? About 7 - 10% :P
However, that figure continues to grow.

How many Americans speak Spanish as their primary language for life, business, etc.? If it's more than 30-40%, then you've got a deal.

About 12%.

However, once again, the US is not a simple "majority rules" nation.

Also, Spanish has been here since the early 1500s ... long before English was spoken here.

Enough for you, maybe. I take it you don't speak any other languages than your native? I, personally, find that sad. Why would you limit your own cultural experience so much?

If you want to go by "majority rules" and the globalisation of a language, then I suggest we all learn Mandarin Chinese. English is a blip on the radar.

I mean in each country, not on Earth.

And I'm learning German. I speak fair Italian, although it's been a while.

The mentally handicapped/those with extreme learning difficulties are probably the clearest case.

If they're mentally handicapped, they probably aren't speaking much anyway, and are being cared for by someone.

No it isn't. You can immigrate to Canada not being able to understand a single word of French or English. Knowledge of French or English increases you 'points' when applying to immigrate, but is by NO means a requirement for Citizenship. Sorry.

Get your facts straight before you jump down someone's throat.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizen/becoming-howto.html

"To become a Canadian citizen you must:

be 18 years of age or older;
be a permanent resident of Canada;
have lived in Canada for at least three of the four years before applying;
be able to communicate in either English or French;
know about Canada;
know about the rights and responsibilities of citizenship"

You can immigrate to Canada, and not be a citizen. There's a difference.

About 12%.

However, once again, the US is not a simple "majority rules" nation.

Also, Spanish has been here since the early 1500s ... long before English was spoken here.

Actually, that's the concept of democracy. Majority rules, minority rights.

If they're mentally handicapped, they probably aren't speaking much anyway, and are being cared for by someone.

And this affects your view on their potential citizenship how, exactly?

Actually, that's the concept of democracy. Majority rules, minority rights.

Pity that the USA isn't a democracy though.

Actually, that's the concept of democracy. Majority rules, minority rights.

Aye ... but we're a Republic. I don't pretend to know anything about Australia, why do you think you're an authority on the US?

And this affects your view on their potential citizenship how, exactly?

If you're handicapped, there's an exception. Because either way, someone's taking care of you. You'd don't need the language as much, because you don't need to go to the grocery store.

What an incredibly boring concept.

Nice way to change the subject. This is an issue for every country in the world with immigration: America, Australia, Europe.

Psst, Europe is not a country.

Come to think of it, Australia really isn't either. I can see why you have this big fascination with hating Europe and wanting to fix the US for our own good: Australia is a non-entity.

Pity that the USA isn't a democracy though.

You're a representative democracy. You have your people represented by other people.

If you're handicapped, there's an exception. Because either way, someone's taking care of you. You'd don't need the language as much, because you don't need to go to the grocery store.

Okay, how about if my family wishes to immigrate, and I will be caring for my aging parents and running all their errands for them? They won't need the language as much, because they won't need to go the grocery store. Should it be enforced that they learn the official language?

Psst, Europe is not a country.

Come to think of it, Australia really isn't either. I can see why you have this big fascination with hating Europe and wanting to fix the US for our own good: Australia is a non-entity.

You know what I meant when I said Europe.

And, Aus not a country? You're WEIRD.

Okay, how about if my family wishes to immigrate, and I will be caring for my aging parents and running all their errands for them? They won't need the language as much, because they won't need to go the grocery store. Should it be enforced that they learn the official language?

That means they're lazy. My grandmother is 80, she speaks English, French and German after moving to various countries throughout the war. She still runs her own errands.

You know what I meant when I said Europe.

And, Aus not a country? You're WEIRD.

...

Coming from someone paranoid enough to think that Muslim's are going to take over Europe in the next few decades, calling someone Weird seem's rather...odd...

You're a representative democracy. You have your people represented by other people.

1. I am not a representative democracy. If anything 'I' am a constitutional monarchy.

2. Even if I were a citizen of the USA, I would not be representative democracy: 'I' would be a federal republic.

Get your facts straight before you jump down someone's throat.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizen/becoming-howto.html

"To become a Canadian citizen you must:

be 18 years of age or older;
be a permanent resident of Canada;
have lived in Canada for at least three of the four years before applying;
be able to communicate in either English or French;
know about Canada;
know about the rights and responsibilities of citizenship"

You can immigrate to Canada, and not be a citizen. There's a difference.
I'll jump down your throat all I want when you disseminate false information, intimating that fluency is a requirment for citizenship.

'Be able to communicate in either English or French'

Do you know what the 'test' is for that?

You must be able to respond to the following questions in French or English,

"What is your name? Where do you live? Do you understand your rights and responsibilities as a Canadian? Please sign here."

Fluency is not a requirement. Being able to memorise the answers gets you by. You have no idea how many CITIZENS of Canada can not speak more than a handful of words in either French or English.

Also, children don't have to be able to speak English or French to get their citizenship. People older than 55 don't have to speak English or French. That means, a sizeable amount of immigrants wishing to become citizens do not have to have fluency.

...

Coming from someone paranoid enough to think that Muslim's are going to take over Europe in the next few decades, calling someone Weird seem's rather...odd...

I got a reason for being weird. And yes, Europe will be majority islamic by 2050, but that's another debate.

So, newborn infants in Canada aren't Canadian citizens until they develop language skills?

Not if they aren't born in Canada no. If they are born in Canada, they are automatically citizens, regardless of the status of their parents.

Seriously. Give me a break.

That means they're lazy. My grandmother is 80, she speaks English, French and German after moving to various countries throughout the war. She still runs her own errands.

So what? You're avoiding the question.

That means they're lazy. My grandmother is 80, she speaks English, French and German after moving to various countries throughout the war. She still runs her own errands.

So you are claiming that it is as easy to learn a new language at the age of 80 as it is to learn one at the age of (80-61=) 19?

2. Even if I were a citizen of the USA, I would not be representative democracy: 'I' would be a federal republic.

Every country that allows voting is, on a certain level, a democracy.

So you are claiming that it is as easy to learn a new language at the age of 80 as it is to learn one at the age of (80-61=) 19?

If you're mentally competant, it should be.

So what? You're avoiding the question.

No, I'm not. That was your answer. Yes.

Every country that allows voting is, on a certain level, a democracy.

True, but that does not mean that your earlier statement of 'majority rules' holds true in all democracies.

True, but that does not mean that your early statement of 'majority rules' holds true in all democracies.

Yeah it does. Unless it's corrupt or rigged.

I'll jump down your throat all I want when you disseminate false information, intimating that fluency is a requirment for citizenship.

'Be able to communicate in either English or French'

Do you know what the 'test' is for that?

You must be able to respond to the following questions in French or English,

"What is your name? Where do you live? Do you understand your rights and responsibilities as a Canadian? Please sign here."

Fluency is not a requirement. Being able to memorise the answers gets you by. You have no idea how many CITIZENS of Canada can not speak more than a handful of words in either French or English

Wow.

Okay, peace. Okay?

Being able to communicate in the official language, is Officially, part of citizenship. Can we agree on that? The degree to which it is enforced is debatable, but accusing me of disseminating false information when it is clearly labelled on a government site as being the case, is hardly fair.

Why am I still here? I said nevermind.

And Rousseau is still spinning in his grave.

You know what I meant when I said Europe.



Indeed I do. You like to generalize a lot. It shows in, let's see, about every one of your posts. What you mean about it all is you're basically xenophobic, possibly racist, definitely ignorant yet you think you know it all and you love the attention you receive by posting inflammatory comments on this board because it makes you feel your views are somehow vindicated.

Wow.

Okay, peace. Okay?

Being able to communicate in the official language, is Officially, part of citizenship. Can we agree on that? The degree to which it is enforced is debatable, but accusing me of disseminating false information when it is clearly labelled on a government site as being the case, is hardly fair.

And besides, to be able to pass all that, you need to at LEAST have conversational level English/French.

No, I'm not. That was your answer. Yes.

Wasn't your argument that those with learning difficulties have little use for language since they will have carers to run their errands and therefore these people are exempt from forced language lessons?

If BWO's grandparents require a carer to run their errands, they too will surely have little use for language and so should be exempt (whether or not one can call them "lazy" being neither here nor there)? So you agree?

Why am I still here? I said nevermind.

And Rousseau is still spinning in his grave.

Why are you still here?

And Rousseau is spinning because we're not forcing people to speak a single language? Good.

Yeah it does. Unless it's corrupt or rigged.

Actually, exactly the opposite; It's designed to prevent tyranny of the majority.

Indeed I do. You like to generalize a lot. It shows in, let's see, about every one of your posts. What you mean about it all is you're basically xenophobic, possibly racist, definitely ignorant yet you think you know it all and you love the attention you receive by posting inflammatory comments on this board because it makes you feel your views are somehow vindicated.

What's xenophobic about Italy expecting immigrants to learn (HORROR OF HORRORS!) Italian?

And no, I'm not going to list out every country in Europe for you when I can just say "Europe."

Actually, exactly the opposite; It's designed to prevent tyranny of the majority.

Hey, why do you think "minority rights" is in there? Majority rules, but minority rights.

Wow.

Okay, peace. Okay?

Being able to communicate in the official language, is Officially, part of citizenship. Can we agree on that? The degree to which it is enforced is debatable, but accusing me of disseminating false information when it is clearly labelled on a government site as being the case, is hardly fair.
Sorry. I'll remove my boots from your throat. I'm jumping on this because I don't want old KP there using us as some sort of 'fluency' example. Being able to communicate in one of our two official languages is a very vague requirement, and often waived. Children and elders are not required to speak a lick of French or English. My point is only that language is not enforced in Canada among the general population. I accept your offer of peace:)

Wasn't your argument that those with learning difficulties have little use for language since they will have carers to run their errands and therefore these people are exempt from forced language lessons?

If BWO's grandparents require a carer to run their errands, they too will surely have little use for language and so should be exempt (whether or not one can call them "lazy" being neither here nor there)? So you agree?

If they're EXTREMELY enfeebled, they might get a pass, but they'll still be encouraged to pick up a bit.

Why are you still here?

And Rousseau is spinning because we're not forcing people to speak a single language? Good.

Rousseau is spinning because you're not following REASON.

Actually, exactly the opposite; It's designed to prevent tyranny of the majority.

Surely that fits into the category of 'rigged'? Leaving aside the question of whether this is a good thing or not...

And besides, to be able to pass all that, you need to at LEAST have conversational level English/French.
Nope.

Many people study past tests, memorise the questions, and simply give rote answers, without actually understanding what they are saying. There are even 'classes' to help you do this.

To avoid all this, you can simply remain a Permanent Resident, live out your entire life in Canada, and never speak a word of French or English.

If they're EXTREMELY enfeebled, they might get a pass, but they'll still be encouraged to pick up a bit.

So you actually mean 'encourage', rather than 'enforce'?

If they're EXTREMELY enfeebled, they might get a pass, but they'll still be encouraged to pick up a bit.

Encouraged how? Visits from social services? Extra pension pounds? Cuddly toys?

Nope.

Many people study past tests, memorise the questions, and simply give rote answers, without actually understanding what they are saying. There are even 'classes' to help you do this.

To avoid all this, you can simply remain a Permanent Resident, live out your entire life in Canada, and never speak a word of French or English.

That's pathetic.

So you actually mean 'encouraged', rather than 'enforced'?

Only if they're in bad enough a sitch to not learn it.

I'm going to bed. I'll see how this pans out tomorrow.

Poor Montesquieu.

Only if they're in bad enough a sitch to not learn it.

But why need they learn the language if they are never likely going to use it?


Okay, lets go back to unpacking your original statement -

"Seriously, countries need to enforce their official languages"

- this is meant to be read as -

"Seriously, countires should encourage their unofficial languages"?

That's pathetic.
Still waiting for the supposed riots that not speaking the 'official' language inherently causes...

Still waiting for the supposed riots that not speaking the 'official' language inherently causes...

We might be waiting a while....

Sorry. I'll remove my boots from your throat. I'm jumping on this because I don't want old KP there using us as some sort of 'fluency' example. Being able to communicate in one of our two official languages is a very vague requirement, and often waived. Children and elders are not required to speak a lick of French or English. My point is only that language is not enforced in Canada among the general population. I accept your offer of peace:)

:) Woo-Hoo!

Yeah, by no means was I trying to imply that 'all them damn forinners' need's ta speak da english'.

:) Woo-Hoo!

Yeah, by no means was I trying to imply that 'all them damn forinners' need's ta speak da english'.
I know, but I also realised it would be taken as a faulty example of how one country 'enforces' official languages.

Hmmm...perhaps my headache is causing me to be extra-bitchy today?:fluffle:

Still waiting for the supposed riots that not speaking the 'official' language inherently causes...

If I remember my Canadian history correctly, the closest thing there was when there were tensions between groups speaking one official language and those speaking the other back in the '40s or thereabouts. Am I completely off beam with this?

If I remember my Canadian history correctly, the closest thing there was when there were tensions between groups speaking one official language and those speaking the other back in the '40s or thereabouts. Am I completely off beam with this?
There were also riots back in the 70s when Italian immigrants were being forced to learn French and they wanted to learn English. There is a lot of tension between the French and English languages...but not a lot between those languages and others.

There were also riots back in the 70s when Italian immigrants were being forced to learn French and they wanted to learn English. There is a lot of tension between the French and English languages...but not a lot between those languages and others.

Yeah, I made that post and then had a vague memory of troubles at the tail end of the 60s and early 70s.

Yeah but what about bilingual nations? Ireland, which few people realise, has two national languages, and while most of the population speak English and only English, everyone still has to learn Irish (or Gaelic, as some people call it). They're enforcing the language as such, well, forcing it on children, which doesn't help much seeing as most people forget it when they leave school, so is that the kind of enforcement you're talking about? Because that looks to me like a pretty tough decision for a government to make.

As for official languages in the US, it would make far more sense (not that it would make much sense to begin with) to go state by state. It would make more sense for Texas to have Spanish as an official language than Michigan. I've only run in to two or three people here in Michigan who speak Spanish, but most of the Texans I met in the military were at least functional.

United States has no official language.

I'm not sure if this is true, but I heard that they recently made English and Spanish the official languages.

I'm not sure if this is true, but I heard that they recently made English and Spanish the official languages.
Some cities and some states have declared official languages. But the United States doesn't have an official language.

I'm not sure if this is true, but I heard that they recently made English and Spanish the official languages.

From what I understand, the only state to even consider an official language(s), was California, which hit a lot of opposition. To my knowledge, there is no official language for the US.

To enforce Integration and force someone to learn a specific language when they don't want to would make you no better than any dictatorship around the world. You cannot FORCE people to do what you want and be thought of as a civilised country.

It's up to the immigrants themselves to learn the de facto language. You cannot force integration.
Yes, you can and should when the social cohesion of the entire nation is at stake. I guarantee that almost all conflicts in world history are ultimately caused by both sides being ignorant of each other. We don't need such ignorance in the modern world and language barriers don't help.

To enforce Integration and force someone to learn a specific language when they don't want to would make you no better than any dictatorship around the world. You cannot FORCE people to do what you want and be thought of as a civilised country.
All governments force people to do things that they don't want to. Show me a government that doesn't.

Yes, you can and should when the social cohesion of the entire nation is at stake. I guarantee that almost all conflicts in world history are ultimately caused by both sides being ignorant of each other. We don't need such ignorance in the modern world and language barriers don't help. While we're at it, a single religion should be enforced. Surly you are cognisant of the more powerful divisiveness of religion, compared to language?

Yes, you can and should when the social cohesion of the entire nation is at stake. I guarantee that almost all conflicts in world history are ultimately caused by both sides being ignorant of each other. We don't need such ignorance in the modern world and language barriers don't help.


All governments force people to do things that they don't want to. Show me a government that doesn't.
This is a great argument for countries having polylingual education.

This is a great argument for countries having polylingual education.

So native kids have to learn eight or nine immigrant languages rather than immigrants learning one official one? Lazy.

While we're at it, a single religion should be enforced. Surly you are cognisant of the more powerful divisiveness of religion, compared to language?
No. Religion may divide people, but under a secular government they are on an equal footing, and if they have a common language they are more likely to resolve their differences with words and less likely to resort to violence.

This is a great argument for countries having polylingual education.
I agree. If there is a large enough minority language, everyone should know it as well as the majority language. Case in point: Canada.

So native kids have to learn eight or nine immigrant languages rather than immigrants learning one official one? Lazy.
I think in such as system, Immigrants would have to learn the official language and all the other immigrant languages as well.

So native kids have to learn eight or nine immigrant languages rather than immigrants learning one official one? Lazy.
Three things:
"Official Business Languages" is English. French not particularly, and German not particularly either, because they depend on your location, while using English should get you somewhere regardless.
I foresee great things though for Chinese. So get busy studying, KP.

I am in favour of teaching all immigrants the generally accepted language. In some nations that might be easier than others, but there needs to be some way for everyone to communicate, even in a very multicultural society. I know that in Germany many problems occur simply because immigrants don't learn the language properly. So a case is to be made to teach everyone, both the kids and the parents.

However, other languages must still be around. It would be a great loss if more languages died out. And not only that, I also believe it absolutely imperative for kids to learn multiple languages, the earlier, the better. It simply opens up more opportunities.

Three things:
"Official Business Languages" is English. French not particularly, and German not particularly either, because they depend on your location, while using English should get you somewhere regardless.
I foresee great things though for Chinese. So get busy studying, KP.

I am in favour of teaching all immigrants the generally accepted language. In some nations that might be easier than others, but there needs to be some way for everyone to communicate, even in a very multicultural society. I know that in Germany many problems occur simply because immigrants don't learn the language properly. So a case is to be made to teach everyone, both the kids and the parents.

However, other languages must still be around. It would be a great loss if more languages died out. And not only that, I also believe it absolutely imperative for kids to learn multiple languages, the earlier, the better. It simply opens up more opportunities.

Guess what buddy? We agree.

Great post.

When I was a little baby growing up in Los Angeles, I learned English and Spanish fluently...(spanish babysitter). Then, I went to school and forgot alot of spanish, but ever since I started taking it again in high school, its been a breeze...and its all coming back. I can understand when poeple talk to me in Spanish, I can read it and know what I'm reading, and I can speak it...although not fluently yet. But I'm working on it.