NationStates Jolt Archive

Yesterday at church we were leaving just as second service was starting (my church has 2 services on Sunday mornings) and there was a girl crying in the lobby (yes my church has a lobby) my first inclination was to leave anyway, but my husband said to go check on her, so I did. The whole time I am talking to her she gives me this really long (like at least 30 minutes) story about how her life sucks, and the whole time I am listening I am thinking "wow. I really don't care, she is probably lying anyway"

What's wrong with me?

usually if someone is upset (not even crying but just upset) I notice way before my husband does, usually I go out of my way to try to help someone, usually I am empathetic to the point that I can cry with them.

where did I get this apathy? why didn't I care?

I did stay and talk to her until she quit crying, and I don't think she realized I was apathetic, since I went into counselor mode, but it bothers me.

The only thing I can figure out is that the things she was saying actually did happen to me at some point and her affect seemed off about them, but maybe she deals with things differently?

I don't know, everytime I would come up with something helpful, she would come up with something worse, I kinda felt like she was competing with me, trying to make me feel sorry for her.... I don't know..

What's wrong with me??

Don't worry, it's my fault somehow.

What's wrong with me??Nothing. Nobody's perfect and you shouldn't kill yourself when you discover that time and time again. :)

Too many goddamn weepy teenagers.

Are you a particularly caring person anyway?

Hey, not even you can care about everybody all the time. Give yourself a break, will you? No need to feel guilty for being just short of a saint :D

Yesterday at church we were leaving just as second service was starting (my church has 2 services on Sunday mornings) and there was a girl crying in the lobby (yes my church has a lobby) my first inclination was to leave anyway, but my husband said to go check on her, so I did. The whole time I am talking to her she gives me this really long (like at least 30 minutes) story about how her life sucks, and the whole time I am listening I am thinking "wow. I really don't care, she is probably lying anyway"

What's wrong with me?

usually if someone is upset (not even crying but just upset) I notice way before my husband does, usually I go out of my way to try to help someone, usually I am empathetic to the point that I can cry with them.

where did I get this apathy? why didn't I care?

I did stay and talk to her until she quit crying, and I don't think she realized I was apathetic, since I went into counselor mode, but it bothers me.

The only thing I can figure out is that the things she was saying actually did happen to me at some point and her affect seemed off about them, but maybe she deals with things differently?

I don't know, everytime I would come up with something helpful, she would come up with something worse, I kinda felt like she was competing with me, trying to make me feel sorry for her.... I don't know..

What's wrong with me??
There's nothing in the world wrong with you, sweetie. What you experienced is perfectly normal, especially for those who work with people.

From time to time, almost everyone who works in one of the "helping professions," counselors, psychologists, social workers, and most medical professionals, gets a bit of overload and goes into what amounts to a "self-protective mode." It's your mind's attempt to shield you from too much emotional stress and give you a bit of distance so you have time to recover. Those who don't have this mode will be more likely to experience "burnout" and leave their profession ( or helping avocation ) entirely.

It's very normal.

Are you a particularly caring person anyway?
I really am, I am the type of person who cries at commercials, I am empathetic to the point that there are some movies I can't see in theaters (or if I do go to see them in public I can't wear mascara)

*yawn* ;)

Seriously, sometimes you have to trust your instincts. You seem like a very caring and intelligent person. If she generates no sympathy in you, there is probably a good reason.

However, there's no harm in suspending disbelief for a time to find out for sure. Better to err on the side of helpfulness. *nod*

I really am, I am the type of person who cries at commercials, I am empathetic to the point that there are some movies I can't see in theaters (or if I do go to see them in public I can't wear mascara)
All of which makes you even more susceptible to burnout. I strongly recommend you take a few weeks or months break every now and then to do something totally different than helping people.

It has begun.. Your husband hasn't even started running and your already tainted by the darkside...

I think we can all agree that there is nothing wrong with you. *pat on the back*

I think we can all agree that there is nothing wrong with you. *pat on the back*
Just make sure it's high enough up on the back or her husband might kill yer sorry butt! :D

All of which makes you even more susceptible to burnout. I strongly recommend you take a few weeks or months break every now and then to do something totally different than helping people.
hmm... I am going for a short vacation at the end of May...


I wonder if it's like LG said though and that it's not me, but her. Her story just kept getting worse and worse, and there were solutions that were pretty easy, but she didn't want them, which is normal for some people but instead of trying to make up excuses she just ignored what I was saying and started telling me something worse was happening than what I had already known about.

She will be 18 in 2 weeks though, so I am working with someone else who is going to help her get out of the situation she is in, and tomorrow I got her an appt. at the mental health clinic to talk to someone who could decide if she needs help more than I am able to give (I am not really an individual counselor, she may need someone who can prescribe meds as well, and I can't do that)

Caring + intelligent = occasional internal conflict between what you're thinking and what you think you should be thinking.

You were probably picking up on some hints (body language, for instance) that this person was having a drama incident. You're a mother. You've seen both real tears and drama tears, and I'm sure you know that, even if a person is in a real crisis, if they happen to be performing their drama at the moment, they don't want it interrupted. Hence her competitve responses, her refusal to be comforted. She just made you a supporting player in her performance.

So your instincts were telling you there was nothing for you to respond to there, but it does seem horribly cold-blooded to try and explain that to someone else, like your husband, who doesn't pick up on the signals. But you can't be in crisis response mode all the time for everything. A little cold-blooded maternal skepticism can help you avoid getting burned out. Sometimes you can help. Sometimes you just have to point them out to someone with more authority and go about your day.

Caring + intelligent = occasional internal conflict between what you're thinking and what you think you should be thinking.
Actually, caring + intelligent = nonexistent. To care about anyone you kind of have to be a naïve and gullible person, to actually believe that they deserve, need, or even remotely want your care. It may sound harsh, but that's because it's true.

Learn not to care and you'll get over these kinds of things easily. I did.

*snip* where did I get this apathy? why didn't I care?

I did stay and talk to her until she quit crying, and I don't think she realized I was apathetic, since I went into counselor mode, but it bothers me.

The only thing I can figure out is that the things she was saying actually did happen to me at some point and her affect seemed off about them, but maybe she deals with things differently?

I don't know, everytime I would come up with something helpful, she would come up with something worse, I kinda felt like she was competing with me, trying to make me feel sorry for her.... I don't know..

What's wrong with me??
There is nothing wrong with you, but the fact that you think there is says loads: it says you're a good person.

Two things: She's not looking for someone to be helpful. That's why she keeps coming up with something worse. She is looking for someone to feed her downer, and you probably easily sensed that. It's not inappropriate to be insensitive when there is honestly nothing to sense. She didn't need pity, she needed a friend and you were there. You did well.

The second thing is you said you'd been through these things before. This is why you can easily sense that pity wasn't what was needed. Trust your feelings, they seem to be spot on, in my opinion.

Actually, caring + intelligent = nonexistent. To care about anyone you kind of have to be a naïve and gullible person, to actually believe that they deserve, need, or even remotely want your care. It may sound harsh, but that's because it's true.

Learn not to care and you'll get over these kinds of things easily. I did.
You know, you're some kind of cynic?

You know, you're some kind of cynic?
Czardas is the best kind of cynic.

Yesterday at church we were leaving just as second service was starting (my church has 2 services on Sunday mornings) and there was a girl crying in the lobby (yes my church has a lobby) my first inclination was to leave anyway, but my husband said to go check on her, so I did. The whole time I am talking to her she gives me this really long (like at least 30 minutes) story about how her life sucks, and the whole time I am listening I am thinking "wow. I really don't care, she is probably lying anyway"

What's wrong with me?

usually if someone is upset (not even crying but just upset) I notice way before my husband does, usually I go out of my way to try to help someone, usually I am empathetic to the point that I can cry with them.

where did I get this apathy? why didn't I care?

I did stay and talk to her until she quit crying, and I don't think she realized I was apathetic, since I went into counselor mode, but it bothers me.

The only thing I can figure out is that the things she was saying actually did happen to me at some point and her affect seemed off about them, but maybe she deals with things differently?

I don't know, everytime I would come up with something helpful, she would come up with something worse, I kinda felt like she was competing with me, trying to make me feel sorry for her.... I don't know..

What's wrong with me??
Number one rule, is that I cannot help someone else if my own house is not in order.

Number two rule, I cannot help someone who is unwilling to help themself.

The Prayer of St. Francis of Asissi is also helpful, if I want to be helpful. (http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/5979/help/list_stfrancis.html)

Czardas is the best kind of cynic.
A funny one. :)

We get a lot of those in my line of work...the "pity me and try to help me but nothing you do will actually work" type. You probably just saw right through her. One of the interesting things about empathetic people is that it's easy to see when somebody is upset, and it's also easy to see when somebody is just looking for attention.

Don't worry about it.

You know, you're some kind of cynic?
No shit?

No shit?
Yes shit! Cynic.. that's you.

Actually, caring + intelligent = nonexistent. To care about anyone you kind of have to be a naïve and gullible person, to actually believe that they deserve, need, or even remotely want your care. It may sound harsh, but that's because it's true.

Learn not to care and you'll get over these kinds of things easily. I did.

You know, you're some kind of cynic?


I didn't see the cynicism in what Czardas wrote :confused: .

actualy careing is in our own self intrest, because our priorities do collectively create the kind of world we individualy have to live in.

but if someone wants to make a pain in ... of themselves to demand attention, well maybe doing so is itself part of their real problem.

=^^=
.../\...

Actually, caring + intelligent = nonexistent. To care about anyone you kind of have to be a naïve and gullible person, to actually believe that they deserve, need, or even remotely want your care. It may sound harsh, but that's because it's true.

Learn not to care and you'll get over these kinds of things easily. I did.I largely agree. I display some level of "caring" in my actions and is generally nice to others as long as they are themselves, (if they openly display stupidity however, like fishing for sympathy by playing a drama like in the example the OP described, I don't want anything to do with them) and I have no strong enough rational reasons to do otherwise. I however don't care on an emotional level, as doing so is useless at best.

There is nothing wrong with you. What is "wrong" with you is merely human indifference.

Yes shit! Cynic.. that's you.
Breaking news!

Czardas is cynical! Ice is cold! The sky is blue! Night follows day!

I largely agree. I display some level of "caring" in my actions and is generally nice to others as long as they are themselves, (if they openly display stupidity however, like fishing for sympathy by playing a drama like in the example the OP described, I don't want anything to do with them) and I have no strong enough rational reasons to do otherwise. I however don't care on an emotional level, as doing so is useless at best.
Well, yes. On a rational level, it's possible to justify caring, but only if you have proof that the person actually needs the care and is not just sympathy-whoring, and that's near-impossible if it's just someone you meet randomly (which is why I don't help homeless people because we've got no way of seeing if they're actually in need of the help; there are plenty of charities one can donate to, but then again how much money goes to the people who actually need help and how much goes to the pockets of the administration? ) ... that's why I see it as irrational and mainly an emotional decision.

Breaking news!

Czardas is cynical! Ice is cold! The sky is blue! Night follows day!

NO! Day follows night and the sky is currently gray! If you lied about those 2 I can't trust you about the others!

NO! Day follows night and the sky is currently gray! If you lied about those 2 I can't trust you about the others!
I never said they were mutually exclusive... :rolleyes:

I never said they were mutually exclusive... :rolleyes:
Oh yeah! Prove it!

Oh yeah! Prove it!
Show me where, outside of this post, I said, "These are mutually exclusive."


Ha. ;)

Show me where, outside of this post, I said, "These are mutually exclusive."


Ha. ;)
I wouldn't stand for that Seosavists! Take him outside and give him what for!

Show me where, outside of this post, I said, "These are mutually exclusive."


Ha. ;)I wouldn't stand for that Seosavists! Take him outside and give him what for!
Why I ought'a!

These are mutally exclusive...

Now prove you didn't say that!

HAHA!


:D :D








http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/images/smilies/sombrero.gif

Yesterday at church we were leaving just as second service was starting (my church has 2 services on Sunday mornings) and there was a girl crying in the lobby (yes my church has a lobby) my first inclination was to leave anyway, but my husband said to go check on her, so I did. The whole time I am talking to her she gives me this really long (like at least 30 minutes) story about how her life sucks, and the whole time I am listening I am thinking "wow. I really don't care, she is probably lying anyway"

What's wrong with me?

usually if someone is upset (not even crying but just upset) I notice way before my husband does, usually I go out of my way to try to help someone, usually I am empathetic to the point that I can cry with them.

where did I get this apathy? why didn't I care?

I did stay and talk to her until she quit crying, and I don't think she realized I was apathetic, since I went into counselor mode, but it bothers me.

The only thing I can figure out is that the things she was saying actually did happen to me at some point and her affect seemed off about them, but maybe she deals with things differently?

I don't know, everytime I would come up with something helpful, she would come up with something worse, I kinda felt like she was competing with me, trying to make me feel sorry for her.... I don't know..

What's wrong with me??

If I had to guess, I'd say if your reaction to her was out of character it was likely because there was something off in how she was behaving. You felt manipulated (which doesn't require you to consciously notice) and you reacted as one being manipulated. Most information we have on how humans detect lies is that the majority of people who are good at lie detection rarely know what it is that makes them know that someone is lying.

It's part of the reason why couples will often fight about things that they aren't mad about. I get offended because I know my imaginary wife is lying to me, but since I don't why I feel she is lying I don't confront her. So the next time she 'screws up' I yell at her for both but without ever mentioning the lie. She feels like I am way overreacting to the only situation she is aware I'm confronting her about and so on.

If you really want to feel better about this situation and pull out all of the things that appeared off to you. What was your first thought about the situation? That she was lying. That's an indicator. You noticed that she seemed to be trying to one-up you. That's an indicator. What other indicators were there? Is there some reason you would have reached this conclusion about the girl without her actually lying or misleading you? Generally, unless you can find a reason why your initial reaction was wrong, I would trust it. It sounds to me like you had reason to have the reaction you did.

Now prove you didn't say that!Proving that Czardas didn't say "These are mutually exclusive." is easy:

"These are mutually exclusive." !=
"These are mutally exclusive..."

The first difference in the second text string is the absense of a 'u'. Then, there are two additional '.'s. Clearly, those two text strings are not equal.
*tests using strcmp just to be sure* Indeed; they are not.

If you really want to feel better about this situation and pull out all of the things that appeared off to you. What was your first thought about the situation? That she was lying. That's an indicator. You noticed that she seemed to be trying to one-up you. That's an indicator. What other indicators were there?
okay, so I disected the conversation, and it still doesn't fit into the places perfect like it should, it just didn't seem right. I have passed her along and there are people with more experience dealing with it. I don't have much "abnormal psychology" experience, so the only thing I can figure out is that her affect wasn't where I thought it should have been which either means she is lying or psychotic, either way it's not something I am prepared to deal with. So, I am going to go with the I had a gut feeling something wasn't quite right with the girl theory.

Proving that Czardas didn't say "These are mutually exclusive." is easy:

"These are mutually exclusive." !=
"These are mutally exclusive..."

The first difference in the second text string is the absense of a 'u'. Then, there are two additional '.'s. Clearly, those two text strings are not equal.
*tests using strcmp just to be sure* Indeed; they are not.

It's also well known that "mutally" is a synonym for "not".

So even in a grammatical comparison the sentence means the opposite of the original challenge.

There's nothing in the world wrong with you, sweetie. What you experienced is perfectly normal, especially for those who work with people.

From time to time, almost everyone who works in one of the "helping professions," counselors, psychologists, social workers, and most medical professionals, gets a bit of overload and goes into what amounts to a "self-protective mode." It's your mind's attempt to shield you from too much emotional stress and give you a bit of distance so you have time to recover. Those who don't have this mode will be more likely to experience "burnout" and leave their profession ( or helping avocation ) entirely.

It's very normal.
This is an excellent description. It happens. And the guilt is normal too...don't worry, you haven't become dead to certain things, you are just numb to them for a bit. It'll come back.

I find though, that even with the most compassionate of people, there are certain issues that they are a bit biased about, usually dealing with obstacles they themselves have faced. When you know that you got out of that situation, it is sometimes easy to think, 'why doesn't this person just do what I did, and get over it?' It's just important to remind yourself, if possible, of the feelings you had while going through crisis...how scary, hopeless and unending it can seem.

But I know what you mean, Smunkee...I had to leave my job teaching in the north, because my students were undergoing or had undergone such severe sexual, physical or emotional abuse that I stopped being able to feel anything about it. It was too much. I had a girl in grade five who was prostituting herself, and two twins who'd seen their mother stab their father. I couldn't bring myself to feel compassion for those kids in the class who were just yelled at or neglected, because that seemed so much less severe. That's when I knew how unhealthy that environment was.

Actually, caring + intelligent = nonexistent. To care about anyone you kind of have to be a naïve and gullible person, to actually believe that they deserve, need, or even remotely want your care. It may sound harsh, but that's because it's true.

Learn not to care and you'll get over these kinds of things easily. I did.
That's the recipie for having no one caring for you, either.

I'll pass.

okay, so I disected the conversation, and it still doesn't fit into the places perfect like it should, it just didn't seem right. I have passed her along and there are people with more experience dealing with it. I don't have much "abnormal psychology" experience, so the only thing I can figure out is that her affect wasn't where I thought it should have been which either means she is lying or psychotic, either way it's not something I am prepared to deal with. So, I am going to go with the I had a gut feeling something wasn't quite right with the girl theory.

Gut feelings are rational reasoning that we aren't capable of verbalizing. People act on gut feelings much more than they admit. We have a tendency to make up reasoning for why we make choices because it makes us feel more rational, but the truth is many times our experience tells that something is off about one or more of the choices in what we call 'gut feelings'.

Don't discount gut feelings. They can save your life. Our unconscious brain often figures things out way before we consciously do. There is generally no reason for the unconscious brain to communicate to our conscious brains why it caused you to feel a certain way so it doesn't. There are all kinds of ways to show how this works and there is a vast amount of tests that have been done in this area. It's all quite interesting (unless I'm the one talking about it. I'm pretty sure nobody is still reading at this point. I once peed on myself on purpose.) I know you didn't ask, but I find the unconscious brain very exciting.

This is an excellent description. It happens. And the guilt is normal too...don't worry, you haven't become dead to certain things, you are just numb to them for a bit. It'll come back.

I find though, that even with the most compassionate of people, there are certain issues that they are a bit biased about, usually dealing with obstacles they themselves have faced. When you know that you got out of that situation, it is sometimes easy to think, 'why doesn't this person just do what I did, and get over it?' It's just important to remind yourself, if possible, of the feelings you had while going through crisis...how scary, hopeless and unending it can seem.

But I know what you mean, Smunkee...I had to leave my job teaching in the north, because my students were undergoing or had undergone such severe sexual, physical or emotional abuse that I stopped being able to feel anything about it. It was too much. I had a girl in grade five who was prostituting herself, and two twins who'd seen their mother stab their father. I couldn't bring myself to feel compassion for those kids in the class who were just yelled at or neglected, because that seemed so much less severe. That's when I knew how unhealthy that environment was.

There are lot of things about what she says about this event that indicate otherwise. Some people do become numb in a way, but she doesn't numb here, she seems to be noticing that something is off about the situation.

Having seen these children, you're more likely to be able to recognize children who have experienced such things. If you meet a child making similar claims, but not being honest about them, your experience is likely to give you the feeling that something is off about their claims even if you can't consciously put your finger on the exact problem.

That's the recipie for having no one caring for you, either.

I'll pass.

I think, and hope, he was just kidding around. Compassion is naive. So is love. So is trust. So is just about every good feeling and shared experience. And as evidence against his claims, both of us are interested in having people care for us, among other things.

Having seen these children, you're more likely to be able to recognize children who have experienced such things. If you meet a child making similar claims, but not being honest about them, your experience is likely to give you the feeling that something is off about their claims even if you can't consciously put your finger on the exact problem.
yes. that's exactly how it was. It's like because I had gone through the stuff she was claiming, and had helped people who had gone through it also, that she didn't seem right for it (if that makes sense) she was very upset about some things, but not quite as upset about others, it's like her reactions were mis-matched.

It's quite possible that she wasn't lying, but I doubt it. I think she was truthful about some of the stuff, but most of it, I think she was trying to make things sound worse or just making things up.

This is an excellent description. It happens. And the guilt is normal too...don't worry, you haven't become dead to certain things, you are just numb to them for a bit. It'll come back.

I find though, that even with the most compassionate of people, there are certain issues that they are a bit biased about, usually dealing with obstacles they themselves have faced. When you know that you got out of that situation, it is sometimes easy to think, 'why doesn't this person just do what I did, and get over it?' It's just important to remind yourself, if possible, of the feelings you had while going through crisis...how scary, hopeless and unending it can seem.

But I know what you mean, Smunkee...I had to leave my job teaching in the north, because my students were undergoing or had undergone such severe sexual, physical or emotional abuse that I stopped being able to feel anything about it. It was too much. I had a girl in grade five who was prostituting herself, and two twins who'd seen their mother stab their father. I couldn't bring myself to feel compassion for those kids in the class who were just yelled at or neglected, because that seemed so much less severe. That's when I knew how unhealthy that environment was.
Such things happen in the paradise known as Canada??? Tsk! ;)

What you say is very true, especially for those of us who are "empaths." Sometimes it is possible to feel too deeply for your own good. I've seen truly excellent social service providers ( both public and private ) go into complete burnout, with a few actually becoming suicidal. This is one more reason why people in such professions should have excellent "coping mechanisms," and why it is imperative that they know themselves extremely well.

For anyone considering one of these professions, I strongly recommend courses which train you in self-knowledge and coping skills. It's for your protection, as well as for the benefit of those you hope to help. And you absolutely have to have a trained counselor to whom you can talk. It doesn't help anyone if you burn out and become one of the "walking wounded" you are trying to help.

There are lot of things about what she says about this event that indicate otherwise. Some people do become numb in a way, but she doesn't numb here, she seems to be noticing that something is off about the situation. Yes, as I read further, I realised this. It sounds like in this case, the girl needs someone to 'lean' on, in terms of having someone sympathise with her. Smunkee is not willing to be that kind of support, when it looks like it would be enabling, not empowering.

And I second the notion that gut feelings should be listened to at all times.

Having seen these children, you're more likely to be able to recognize children who have experienced such things. If you meet a child making similar claims, but not being honest about them, your experience is likely to give you the feeling that something is off about their claims even if you can't consciously put your finger on the exact problem.
This is true, but you have to be extremely careful when making such judgments based solely on intuition. Intuitions, like feelings, are excellent as an "early warning system," but should always be backed up by analysis and by touching base with someone who can help you work through these intuitions. Just one more reason to have someone you can talk to, preferrably someone trained and experienced in the field.

Yes, as I read further, I realised this. It sounds like in this case, the girl needs someone to 'lean' on, in terms of having someone sympathise with her. Smunkee is not willing to be that kind of support, when it looks like it would be enabling, not empowering.

And I second the notion that gut feelings should be listened to at all times.

Yes, actually, it's a very western notion that all decisions must be rationally explained. Even in sparring if you ask a guy why he chose to use a particular counter that would seem at first glance to be less than ideal, he'll make up some explanation as to why he chose it, when in reality he noticed some small change in the demeanor of his opponent and knew that another, seemingly better, counter is what his opponent was expecting. A completely physical activity that we feel need to intellectualize because science tells us to search for the rational. Where people are confused is that "rational" does not equal "can easily be explained".

That's the recipie for having no one caring for you, either.

I'll pass.
Some of us don't actually want people caring for us. As though I didn't make that clear. :rolleyes:

I think, and hope, he was just kidding around. Compassion is naive. So is love. So is trust. So is just about every good feeling and shared experience.
And your point is...? Th
at because you feel good about them they're true feelings and experiences?

And as evidence against his claims, both of us are interested in having people care for us, among other things.
In that case, I'd have to classify you as sympathy-whores. You yourself said as much...

Well, yes. On a rational level, it's possible to justify caring, but only if you have proof that the person actually needs the care and is not just sympathy-whoring, and that's near-impossible if it's just someone you meet randomly (which is why I don't help homeless people because we've got no way of seeing if they're actually in need of the help; there are plenty of charities one can donate to, but then again how much money goes to the people who actually need help and how much goes to the pockets of the administration? ) ... that's why I see it as irrational and mainly an emotional decision.When it comes to people I don't know well, what I am willing to do to help them are things that don't require any sacrifices. (however, I would like to help all of humanity by eradicating every trace of it, as quickly as possible.:) in that sole case, I would be willing to give my life. that is, assuming the only way to kill human stupidity is to kill humanity, something that seems very likely) And I hardly go around helping random people; if someone asks me for help, I might give it, but otherwise I keep my distance.

And sympathy-whoring is quite useless when it comes to me; I don't give much in the way of sympathy. (in itself, it is quite useless anyway; those that want it typically don't want to help themselves, and those that want to typically are not intrested in sympathy) I might give some practical advice, if I can think of any that is relevant, though.

This is true, but you have to be extremely careful when making such judgments based solely on intuition. Intuitions, like feelings, are excellent as an "early warning system," but should always be backed up by analysis and by touching base with someone who can help you work through these intuitions. Just one more reason to have someone you can talk to, preferrably someone trained and experienced in the field.

Not true. There is much evidence that when trying to work through intuitions people can often be encouraged in to making bad decisions.

There was a study done (I would link it, but I read about it offline) where people were asked to categorize people without explanation (I forget how, but it had something to do with an objective classification) simply based on a picture. Then another group of people were asked to do so with explanation. The first group did significantly better. There are some things your unconscious brain is better at and by trying to hard to make the evaluation conscious you can cause yourself to dismiss the unconscious behavior or render it useless.

Our senses drink in lots of details that generally the conscious mind cannot process. It's the reason why I always turn around when someone enters a room behind me even if they don't make a sound. My conscious brain doesn't hear anything, but my unconscious brain notices that the sound that is present in the room has changed slightly because the room dynamics have changed slightly. Now, I happen to know why that happens, but most don't. Intuition is simply the name we give to our unconscious brain acting on experience.

Her reaction probably relied on a lot of aspects of that conversation that it would take her a lot of work to consciously realize she noticed. What is important about intuition is to recognize the situations where it's not intuition but bias, which is why I asked her what reason she might have to treat this girl as if she were lying if she weren't. Intuition is also dangerous in situations were the ability to drink in details your mind expects to receive are incapicitated such as in life or death situations where (mostly) men literally become deaf because of a biological need for the brain to focus on other factors of a situation. She was not in such a situation here, so there is no need for her to distrust what her experience told her.

Yes, actually, it's a very western notion that all decisions must be rationally explained. Even in sparring if you ask a guy why he chose to use a particular counter that would seem at first glance to be less than ideal, he'll make up some explanation as to why he chose it, when in reality he noticed some small change in the demeanor of his opponent and knew that another, seemingly better, counter is what his opponent was expecting. A completely physical activity that we feel need to intellectualize because science tells us to search for the rational. Where people are confused is that "rational" does not equal "can easily be explained".
Everytime I've gone against my gut instinct, I've paid for it. That doesn't mean I don't give people a chance...but if I get a bad vibe from someone, I tend to keep my guard up. If a situation feels wrong, I get out, or prepare myself to act. I don't need to know why.

The same is true of dealing with people in crisis, and especially true when dealing with children, who often can't tell you what is wrong, or are hesitant to. We are constantly told as teachers to pay attention to our reactions to kids...but I honestly think that a large percentage of teachers ignore those feelings. That is how so much can be missed, because they focus on the teaching, and ignore the 'in loco parentus' part.

However, one thing I have had to learn, is that even the people who strike you as being 'false' in terms of their crisis...a serious issue is still there. They are crying out for help for SOME reason, and if they don't get it, the situation will eventually deteriorate. Even the most clingy, annoying, attention-seeking kids are doing these things for a reason. What they tell you is likely NOT the root cause of their behaviour...they tend to sensationalise, because simple lonlieness and alienation is often not seen as important enough. But it is. So even when you have someone you can't STAND, who is looking for attention, making up stories about why they are so sad, or angry, or whatever...take it seriously enough to refer them to someone else. Which is what Smunkee has done. Smunk...you took it serious enough to realise that whatever is going on is serious enough to warrant attention, and you were wise enough to realise you probably weren't going to get to the bottom of it yourself...or even that you don't have the desire to do so. Feigning empathy is terrible...we aren't the only ones who can sense the deception.

And your point is...? Th
at because you feel good about them they're true feelings and experiences?

No. What the hell are "true" feelings and experiences? My point is that I feel good about them. Feeling good is desirable to me.

In that case, I'd have to classify you as sympathy-whores. You yourself said as much...

Caring doesn't equal sympathy. Empathy is a lot more than simple sympathy. Caring is a bond with other humans and I enjoy that bond from both sides.

Strawmen don't help your case.

Some of us don't actually want people caring for us. As though I didn't make that clear. :rolleyes:
You lie, Czardy. You would be devestated if I stopped loving you wit, your sarcasm, and your insight! If we never paid attention to you again, you would wither and begin hearing our voices, haunting you as you attempted to sleep!

I wuv you, and you wuv it that I wuv you:)

When it comes to people I don't know well, what I am willing to do to help them are things that don't require any sacrifices. (however, I would like to help all of humanity by eradicating every trace of it, as quickly as possible.:) in that sole case, I would be willing to give my life. that is, assuming the only way to kill human stupidity is to kill humanity, something that seems very likely) And I hardly go around helping random people; if someone asks me for help, I might give it, but otherwise I keep my distance.

And sympathy-whoring is quite useless when it comes to me; I don't give much in the way of sympathy. (in itself, it is quite useless anyway; those that want it typically don't want to help themselves, and those that want to typically are not intrested in sympathy) I might give some practical advice, if I can think of any that is relevant, though.
That seems rather sensible.

No. What the hell are "true" feelings and experiences? My point is that I feel good about them. Feeling good is desirable to me.
I see. So you'd feel good about things even if they happened to be false?

Caring doesn't equal sympathy. Empathy is a lot more than simple sympathy. Caring is a bond with other humans and I enjoy that bond from both sides.
Empathy-whores then, whatever.

Strawmen don't help your case.
...

This is true, but you have to be extremely careful when making such judgments based solely on intuition. Intuitions, like feelings, are excellent as an "early warning system," but should always be backed up by analysis and by touching base with someone who can help you work through these intuitions. Just one more reason to have someone you can talk to, preferrably someone trained and experienced in the field.

By the way, there was a case where a statue inspired gut feelings by all the experts that it was a fake, however, a wealth of technical analysis evidenced it as authentic. It took a very long time before it was discovered that a couple of the details of the statue betrayed a lack of authenticity. They acted on the gut feeling and never waivered. Had they followed the technical analysis instead of trusting the gut feeling, it would have been a very expensive mistake. The problem with conscious analysis is that it is MUCH easier to fool than the unconscious.

Not true. There is much evidence that when trying to work through intuitions people can often be encouraged in to making bad decisions.

There was a study done (I would link it, but I read about it offline) where people were asked to categorize people without explanation (I forget how, but it had something to do with an objective classification) simply based on a picture. Then another group of people were asked to do so with explanation. The first group did significantly better. There are some things your unconscious brain is better at and by trying to hard to make the evaluation conscious you can cause yourself to dismiss the unconscious behavior or render it useless.

Our senses drink in lots of details that generally the conscious mind cannot process. It's the reason why I always turn around when someone enters a room behind me even if they don't make a sound. My conscious brain doesn't hear anything, but my unconscious brain notices that the sound that is present in the room has changed slightly because the room dynamics have changed slightly. Now, I happen to know why that happens, but most don't. Intuition is simply the name we give to our unconscious brain acting on experience.

Her reaction probably relied on a lot of aspects of that conversation that it would take her a lot of work to consciously realize she noticed. What is important about intuition is to recognize the situations where it's not intuition but bias, which is why I asked her what reason she might have to treat this girl as if she were lying if she weren't. Intuition is also dangerous in situations were the ability to drink in details your mind expects to receive are incapicitated such as in life or death situations where (mostly) men literally become deaf because of a biological need for the brain to focus on other factors of a situation. She was not in such a situation here, so there is no need for her to distrust what her experience told her.
Hmm. Well, it's true that intuition is often based on cues picked up by the subconscious which generate a "feeling" of wrongness or dissonance. However, as I stated earlier, making decisions about counseling issues based solely on "intuition" or feelings is inherently dangerous. Intuition and feelings should only be relied upon to warn your intellect that there is something going on to which you need to give your attention.

You lie, Czardy. You would be devestated if I stopped loving you wit, your sarcasm, and your insight! If we never paid attention to you again, you would wither and begin hearing our voices, haunting you as you attempted to sleep!
You're steadily getting better at this. Good work, young disciple. Already you have learned to stop adding [/sarcasm] tags and winking emoticons to your posts, for such true sarcasm is unworthy of those who do not understand it at once... :p

You're steadily getting better at this. Good work, young disciple. Already you have learned to stop adding [/sarcasm] tags and winking emoticons to your posts, for such true sarcasm is unworthy of those who do not understand it at once... :p
You are so weird. :rolleyes:

You're steadily getting better at this. Good work, young disciple. Already you have learned to stop adding [/sarcasm] tags and winking emoticons to your posts, for such true sarcasm is unworthy of those who do not understand it at once... :p
Hush, young pup, you are speaking to your elder! While I can be a bit slow to catch on in this medium, I nonetheless have my 'sarcasm meter' out and running any time certain posters....yourself, and Fass for example...make any sort of comment.

As for my own use of sarcasm, I can't imagine what you are talking about. Nothing I say has a connotation aside from what is denoted.

You are so weird. :rolleyes:
Thank you.

Hush, young pup, you are speaking to your elder! While I can be a bit slow to catch on in this medium, I nonetheless have my 'sarcasm meter' out and running any time certain posters....yourself, and Fass for example...make any sort of comment.
Nonetheless, I am far wiser in the ways of wit, one of the true Masters of Sarcazm in person (self-proclaimed, maybe, but that's not the point).


As for my own use of sarcasm, I can't imagine what you are talking about. Nothing I say has a connotation aside from what is denoted.
Oh, of course not. ;)

That seems rather sensible.


I see. So you'd feel good about things even if they happened to be false?

Yes. Actually. I prefer to be the type of person who goes out of their way to help people and to make the world better even if it is unappreciated or unnoticed. If ten people all take on the appearance of having equal need. I am willing to give to nine people something they do not need so that the tenth who does need, does not go without. That the nine feel like they got over on me matters not to me. I don't give in hopes of some sort of reward from the person I give to.

Matthew 6:2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Empathy-whores then, whatever.


...

Amusing. I've never seen anyone clamor for more attention from people they've never met than you do. Pot, I suggest you look down before you start calling the kettle anything. Most people seek to make connections with people in various ways. We simply admit it.

EDIT: The best way to deal with Czardas is to treat everything he says at face value. It amuses him and everyone else at the same time. Whereas acting according to his rules only amuses him.

Hmm. Well, it's true that intuition is often based on cues picked up by the subconscious which generate a "feeling" of wrongness or dissonance. However, as I stated earlier, making decisions about counseling issues based solely on "intuition" or feelings is inherently dangerous. Intuition and feelings should only be relied upon to warn your intellect that there is something going on to which you need to give your attention.

That's what she did. She didn't abandon the child. She simply incorporated that feeling into her actions. It's entirely appropriate.

Thank you.
My pleasure. Don't mention it. :D

That's what she did. She didn't abandon the child. She simply incorporated that feeling into her actions. It's entirely appropriate.
Perhaps surprisingly enough, I agree. :eek:

Yesterday at church...

What's wrong with me??
Oh, that's very easy to point out, and I can answer it already after the first three words of your first sentence:
You're visiting a church! http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif:eek:

Yes. Actually. I prefer to be the type of person who goes out of their way to help people and to make the world better even if it is unappreciated or unnoticed. If ten people all take on the appearance of having equal need. I am willing to give to nine people something they do not need so that the tenth who does need, does not go without. That the nine feel like they got over on me matters not to me. I don't give in hopes of some sort of reward from the person I give to.
I can't possibly see the advantage of such a system. You lose ten things with no tangible benefit for yourself, except for the possibility of respect from a deity who may or may not exist (and which you may or may not believe in)... and hypocrites benefit at your expense. Unless you like that kind of thing, of course.

Amusing. I've never seen anyone clamor for more attention from people they've never met than you do. Pot, I suggest you look down before you start calling the kettle anything. Most people seek to make connections with people in various ways. We simply admit it.
Well, my ways of connecting with people are then different from yours. I don't want to be cared about... it makes me feel guilty as though I have to care about others in return, or as though I owe them something else. And I dislike having to rely on others, at least in person. Of course I do use the internet and those who frequent it for the companionship I require, but for all I know everyone I converse with is a bot or a puppet, or worse. This way, nobody knows who I actually am, and I can make sardonic remarks without getting bitch slapped.

Anyway...

My pleasure. Don't mention it. :D
It's a pity, nobody is actually smart enough to figure out I'm insulting them with that retort. Oh well, never mind.

I can't possibly see the advantage of such a system. You lose ten things with no tangible benefit for yourself, except for the possibility of respect from a deity who may or may not exist (and which you may or may not believe in)... and hypocrites benefit at your expense. Unless you like that kind of thing, of course.

I told you the benefits and it's not for the benefit from a deity. I think seeking rewards for such actions are inherently flawed. All rewards, even those that appear to be most assured, are not guaranteed. Everyone can be taken advantage of. The difference you view it as a bad thing and I do not. If I am happy helping someone or giving them something then why should their reaction to it change that? You measure benefits differently than I. I think there are greater benefits than a lump of change or a diamond ring.

If I'm madly in love with a woman who was only pretending to be in love with me for ten years, who lost out? Not me. It still felt good. I still enjoyed it. It appears that the person who was lying lost out because they didn't get the joy out of the situation I did. At best they got material things. Material things are only things. So long as I'm surviving, my quest for material things is simply a pasttime. The real juice is in enjoying my life and how you react to my enjoyment or take advantage of it has little effect on whether or not that enjoyment exists. Loving life, sharing that love for life with others, helping people or trying to, lifting up the important things in life, that's the only juice that is worth squeeze. Material things are just the rind.


Well, my ways of connecting with people are then different from yours. I don't want to be cared about... it makes me feel guilty as though I have to care about others in return, or as though I owe them something else. And I dislike having to rely on others, at least in person. Of course I do use the internet and those who frequent it for the companionship I require, but for all I know everyone I converse with is a bot or a puppet, or worse. This way, nobody knows who I actually am, and I can make sardonic remarks without getting bitch slapped.

Anyway...

You're so full of crap. Yes, you do want to be cared about and you know it. You may not want to be liked but you do want to be cared about. You put a lot of effort into connecting with people on this board in your way. You make comments in conversations that do nothing to add to the conversation other than to inject you into it. There is nothing wrong with such things, but admit you do it.

You feel a need to say the funny comments that occur in your head out loud because you laughing isn't enough. You need other people to react to your comments. Fake all you want, but your beef with us is not that we care but that we admit it.

It's a pity, nobody is actually smart enough to figure out I'm insulting them with that retort. Oh well, never mind.

Again, I'm amused. You want people to care that you insult them and suggest they must be dense when they don't. More evidence for my case. Naive and smart are not mutually exclusive, particularly when you define naive as anyone who doesn't agree with you.

It's a pity, nobody is actually smart enough to figure out I'm insulting them with that retort. Oh well, never mind.
Oh, it's not a matter of figuring out it was a mild sort of insult. I just like playing some things absolutely straight. :)

Oh Czardy...you frickin' genius...it doesn't really matter how you play it, because you get what you want either way, and then people say, 'but I WANT to play this game, really, I wasn't tricked into it...no seriously, I like this, ha. ha. ha.':fluffle:

Oh, it's not a matter of figuring out it was a mild sort of insult. I just like playing some things absolutely straight. :)

Did you notice how for someone who doesn't care, he sure spends a lot of time trying to impress other people with his superiority? I wonder if his arm ever gets sore from patting himself on the back.

For the record, I find your ability to play straightman absolutely amusing. You have made me choke on my wild cherry pepsi more than once, but I don't want to tell you because it ruins the mystique.

Oh Czardy...you frickin' genius...it doesn't really matter how you play it, because you get what you want either way, and then people say, 'but I WANT to play this game, really, I wasn't tricked into it...no seriously, I like this, ha. ha. ha.':fluffle:
;)

... , and I can make sardonic remarks without getting bitch slapped.Surely you mean czardonic?


(I couldn't resist)

Well I blame it on unconcious telepathisy(I don't know how to spell it). Maybe you just new she was lying and thought you shouldn't help her. I would have left her alone. Because it's her problem and I don't go to church.