NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/03/12/marine-deserter-060312.html


A B.C. man has spent the weekend detained at a military base in California after being arrested for deserting the U.S. Marine Corps four decades ago during the Vietnam War.

Allen Abney, who was born in the United States but became a Canadian citizen in 1977, was arrested at a border crossing on Thursday while trying to enter Idaho from southeastern British Columbia.

Abney, 56, lives in Kingsgate in British Columbia's East Kootenay region, in a house about 100 metres from the Canada-U.S. border.

He and his wife were on their way for a holiday in Reno, Nev., when U.S. officials accused him of desertion and took him into custody.

In 1968, Abney was a 19-year-old marine when he fled to Canada because he didn't want to fight in Vietnam.

Charges on desertion can result in penalties ranging from a dishonorable discharge from the U.S. military to a court martial and possible jail sentence.

U.S. military 'not saying anything,' Abney's wife says

His wife, Adrienne, said Abney was being held in a military prison at Camp Pendleton, Calif.

But she said she had no idea what will happen next.

"They're not saying anything to him yet," she told CBC News.

"I talked to him twice on Friday, just very briefly. He's in the brig."

Arrest came during routine crossing

Abney's wife said the trouble began when their passports were checked during a routine border crossing.

"After running them through some computer, they said we'd have to come inside," she said.

"They took Alan away into a room and locked him up."

Then customs officials confiscated several of Abney's personal items, she said.

"They took his belt, his suspenders, shoes, his wallet, his glasses, everything."

Abney said her husband's case has come to the attention of Lynn Gonzalez, a counsellor with the San Diego Military Counseling Project.

The group's website explains that it offers support to "active duty folks and their families who are having problems within the military."

Abney said Gonzalez is keeping in touch with her about the case.

"She phoned me yesterday and said, basically he's all right," she said.

"We're just waiting to hear what they are going to do."

I think people who desert in time of war should be punished. Right now I am aware of a deserter from the Texas Air National Guard from about the same time period. I believe he can be apprehended in or around the D.C. area.

I thought they pardoned draft dodgers a while back?

This man is to be commended. He deserted when all men should have.

I thought they pardoned draft dodgers a while back?
Hey, when they can lock people up for no reason without argument, why not do it.

Hey, when they can lock people up for no reason without argument, why not do it.

Locking up pardoned deserters is going to get some argument.

They should give this man a medal.

They should give this man a medal.

For being arrested? Well that's certainly a silly proposition.

I thought they pardoned draft dodgers a while back?
Dodgers yes....deserters no.

For being arrested? Well that's certainly a silly proposition.
For deserting.

If he was drafted, I respect him. If he joined, but didn't want to fight, too bad. When you enlist you risk getting shot at by the enemy. Joining is telling Uncle Sam "If there is a war, I will fight it." If you don't like fire, get the hell away from the stove. If he joined, he should have sucked it up and fought. You can't get the rewards without the work.

For deserting.

Some would feel that he should be shot.

Some would feel that he should be shot.
So?

If he was drafted, I respect him. If he joined, but didn't want to fight, too bad. When you enlist you risk getting shot at by the enemy. Joining is telling Uncle Sam "If there is a war, I will fight it." If you don't like fire, get the hell away from the stove. If he joined, he should have sucked it up and fought. You can't get the rewards without the work.

poeple are not allowed to change their minds?

poeple are not allowed to change their minds?

In the military, no. Kinda makes it ineffective. But really the type of person that deserts their unit isn't the type of person the military wants nor that the soldiers in that unit want.

I seriously doubt they'll do anything more than dishonorably discharge him. If he was still a US Citizen, they might make an example of him, but the fact he's taken out Canadian citizenship should help him - the court will quietly take into account that the US doesn't need an argument with their most important neighbour just now.

Personally, I'd throw the book at him. Desertion in time of war is one of the things I really can't forgive.

do you suppose he forgot he was a deserter? geez all he had to do was not come back to the US and he would have lived out his days in peace. not that i dont understand the lure of nevada casinos...



i think that other deserter is a shoe-in for a presidential pardon.

I seriously doubt they'll do anything more than dishonorably discharge him. If he was still a US Citizen, they might make an example of him, but the fact he's taken out Canadian citizenship should help him - the court will quietly take into account that the US doesn't need an argument with their most important neighbour just now.

Personally, I'd throw the book at him. Desertion in time of war is one of the things I really can't forgive.
Desertion when it's not your country that's the aggressor, when you're fighting to defend your country I could understand.. He probably deserves to be punished. But I don't think that's the case here..

This man is to be commended. He deserted when all men should have.

If that's how you think, then you'd be wrong. Whether or not the US should have been involved with the Vietnam war isn't the case. It was his duty to serve his country (after all, he was in the military), and he deserted that duty. My father and my uncle were over there around that time. My father was enlisted in the Marines, and my uncle was in the Army (my uncle has a Purple Heart to show for his time there), and they served their country with honor. This man did not.

In my opinion, the deserter should be punished within the confines of the law for his crimes.

It's just the US trying to make an example out of him. They know there are going to be more deserters to come, with the "peace keeping missions" in Iraq and Afganistan. Especially with the situation in Iraq getting worse, people are calling it the next Vietnam. But it's just stupid. The guy's more than 60 years old. It's like giving him a death sentence to force him back into the military. Besides, the Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister isn't doing much about it either. Why would anybody give such an important post to a talentless scum like Peter Mackay?

It's just the US trying to make an example out of him. They know there are going to be more deserters to come, with the "peace keeping missions" in Iraq and Afganistan. Especially with the situation in Iraq getting worse, people are calling it the next Vietnam. But it's just stupid. The guy's more than 60 years old. It's like giving him a death sentence to force him back into the military. Besides, the Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister isn't doing much about it either. Why would anybody give such an important post to a talentless scum like Peter Mackay?

I doubt they'd force him back into the Marines. More than likely, he'd end up spending time in a military prison.

Oh, go polish your gun-barrels.

Who cares what happened more than twenty years before half of you were born?

Oh, go polish your gun-barrels.

Who cares what happened more than twenty years before half of you were born?

I care, because my father and uncle were over there, risking their lives, while this guy decided he didn't want to serve his country. Also, this happened only 5 years before I was born.

So?
So he should be shot. :headbang: I have no idea where this thread came from.:confused: The damn thing just popped up in another tab in my Firefox browser.:D

I care, because my father and uncle were over there, risking their lives, while this guy decided he didn't want to serve his country. Also, this happened only 5 years before I was born.
Well, tough. He didn't wanna risk his life to protect your mother four years and three months before you were concieved. Cope with it. Move on.

Seems simple enough to me. He broke the law so you punish him and let him go on with his life. No big deal.

Well, tough. He didn't wanna risk his life to protect your mother four years and three months before you were concieved. Cope with it. Move on.

Huh? My mother wasn't over there.


Also, I'd like to point out that if he didn't want to go to Vietnam, he shouldn't have signed up.

I think that since this happened such a long time ago, they should punish him in a non-jail way. A hefty fine maybe.

Huh? My mother wasn't over there.
Quite. And as your father and uncle were over there, I supposed the only one left in America to be protected against incipient Vietnamese communism at the time was your mother.
Also, I'd like to point out that if he didn't want to go to Vietnam, he shouldn't have signed up.Pointed out. Don't care. Move on.

Huh? My mother wasn't over there.


Also, I'd like to point out that if he didn't want to go to Vietnam, he shouldn't have signed up.


Draft?

On a related note, what's the statute of limitations on desertion?

Quite. And as your father and uncle were over there, I supposed the only one left in America to be protected against incipient Vietnamese communism at the time was your mother.

I'm sure my mother could have taken care of herself. She was deadly with a wooden spoon. :eek:

Pointed out. Don't care. Move on.

I can see there's no way either of us will be seeing the other POV.

I can see there's no way either of us will be seeing the other POV.
No, I see your point of view - but I rail against it.

Draft?

On a related note, what's the statute of limitations on desertion?

From what I found online (googled "penalty for desertion in time of war"), the maximum penalty for desertion in time of war is death. Therefore, there is no statute of limitations.

No, I see your point of view - but I rail against it.

Ah, I see. :|

He is being made an example of to deter iraq potential deserters. According, to reports he visited the US many times before this incident.

If he was drafted, and dodged - I'm cool with that. No one should be forced into the military against their will.

But once you accept your induction and take the oath - then you have accepted a duty to serve. Desertion is a betrayal of your nation, your people and all of your fellow soldiers.

I don't care that he did it a year before I was born. He's still guilty of one of the worst crimes a person can commit.

I don't care that he did it a year before I was born. He's still guilty of one of the worst crimes a person can commit.

Oh Bullshit. Desertion is not only a victimless crime, it's a protest against immoral wars, a natural product of realising you aren't cut out to be a soldier (they don't ask you "Hey, now that we're in war, are you still capable of being a soldier"), an act of all-to-natural fear (guess what, anyone who isn't terrified of dying is insane, by definition), or a reckognition that nations are pointless piles of crap which don't deserve to be treated as a holy object to be worshiped and served for eternity.

Rape and Murder are the worst crimes a person can commit. Desertion is at times either a mild offense (at worst) or an act of heroism (at best). The only reason you don't see it presented that way is because the military gives it a cult of personality to give it leeway to allow it to murder deserters under it's code of laws. :rolleyes:

Oh Bullshit. Desertion is not only a victimless crime, it's a protest against immoral wars, a natural product of realising you aren't cut out to be a soldier (they don't ask you "Hey, now that we're in war, are you still capable of being a soldier"), an act of all-to-natural fear (guess what, anyone who isn't terrified of dying is insane, by definition), or a reckognition that nations are pointless piles of crap which don't deserve to be treated as a holy object to be worshiped and served for eternity.

Rape and Murder are the worst crimes a person can commit. Desertion is at times either a mild offense (at worst) or an act of heroism (at best). The only reason you don't see it presented that way is because the military gives it a cult of personality to give it leeway to allow it to murder deserters under it's code of laws. :rolleyes:

And Bullshit right back at you. Desertion is by no means victimless; the victim is everyone who relied on him, from his squad-mates to his nation as a whole. If he's not there to pull his weight, either someone else has to or it doesn't get done, and quite possibly someone dies as a result.

If a person honestly can't hack being a soldier, he can put in for a transfer to a non-combat unit - I've seen people in that circumstance, and they simply found them a job they COULD do instead, freeing up someone else to fight. There's nothing dishonorable about that, either; some people weren't meant to be soldiers.

But "an act of all-too-natural fear"? The name for that is cowardice. This is no moral high ground, no standing up for what you believe in - it's the ultimate in selfishness, the failure of all moral strength and sensibility, and the placing of one's own life above one's duty - there is no more rancid foulness upon the earth than a proven coward.

To choose not to take up a duty can be pardoned, can even be applauded if it is done for a good reason. I applaud those who said "I will not serve" in Vietnam. But I reiterate, to take up a duty to your nation, your people and your fellow soldiers and then to abandon it, is one of the worst crimes a person can commit.

Oh Bullshit. Desertion is not only a victimless crime, it's a protest against immoral wars, a natural product of realising you aren't cut out to be a soldier (they don't ask you "Hey, now that we're in war, are you still capable of being a soldier"), an act of all-to-natural fear (guess what, anyone who isn't terrified of dying is insane, by definition), or a reckognition that nations are pointless piles of crap which don't deserve to be treated as a holy object to be worshiped and served for eternity.

Rape and Murder are the worst crimes a person can commit. Desertion is at times either a mild offense (at worst) or an act of heroism (at best). The only reason you don't see it presented that way is because the military gives it a cult of personality to give it leeway to allow it to murder deserters under it's code of laws. :rolleyes:

Here's where you're wrong. He broke his oath, his solemn word to his country. If he wasn't cut out to be a soldier, he shouldn't have taken the oath. Also, the US was involved in Vietnam well before he deserted, so there's no basis for moral objection to the war. I don't like the idea of draft dodging, but it was a slightly better alternative to deserting. Finally, breaking an oath doesn't make you a hero, it makes you scum.

If he was drafted, and dodged - I'm cool with that. No one should be forced into the military against their will.

But once you accept your induction and take the oath - then you have accepted a duty to serve. Desertion is a betrayal of your nation, your people and all of your fellow soldiers.

I don't care that he did it a year before I was born. He's still guilty of one of the worst crimes a person can commit.
And neither Carter's nor Ford's amnesty programs included deserters. Only draft evaders.

But this guy has had to live in Canada for the last forty years. I say he's been punished enough.

No one here knows the circumstances of his desertion. He could have had any number of good reasons. As for "abandoning his unit" arguments, how much better off would his unit be if they were relying on a guy who wouldn't have his heart and mind in it? Or was he just expected to be another meat shield?

He's an old man. The war he abandoned was over a long time ago. If it hurts the army's ego enough that they need to torment and disrupt his life, then I guess that's the message they want to send to their current troops.

I do not fluffle. I do not shoot. I do not bang walls with my head. I am the anti-smilie.
http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/updown.gif

http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/updown.gif

No, no, no. That's the Negasmiley.

But this guy has had to live in Canada for the last forty years. I say he's been punished enough.


Best line of the day.... :D

And neither Carter's nor Ford's amnesty programs included deserters. Only draft evaders.

But this guy has had to live in Canada for the last forty years. I say he's been punished enough.

In 1977 then-U.S. president Jimmy Carter signed a pardon for Vietnam draft dodgers and deserters, but the program required deserters to apply for the special discharge review program. Abney didn't apply.

As you can see, it's a bit more complicated than that. The pardon covered deserters, but Abney didn't do the paperwork.

Here's where you're wrong. He broke his oath, his solemn word to his country. If he wasn't cut out to be a soldier, he shouldn't have taken the oath. Also, the US was involved in Vietnam well before he deserted, so there's no basis for moral objection to the war. I don't like the idea of draft dodging, but it was a slightly better alternative to deserting. Finally, breaking an oath doesn't make you a hero, it makes you scum.

Yes, people who don't show up for duty should be punished to the full extent of the law.

http://www.btsawyer.com/awol/docs/doc24.gif

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc4.gif

This administration is getting scarier every day.

Yes, people who don't show up for duty should be punished to the full extent of the law.

http://www.btsawyer.com/awol/docs/doc24.gif

http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc4.gif

I can't read that second one (probably my bad eyesight). Anyone have a better copy?

I can't read that second one (probably my bad eyesight). Anyone have a better copy?

It is a Company Grade Officer Effectiveness Report. It shows the ratings of a certain pilot (the same as mentioned in the first link) who received the same rating in all fields:

Knowledge of duties: deserted.

Performance of duties: deserted.

Effectiveness in working with others: deserted.

Leadership characteristics: deserted.

The list goes on...

Throw the book at him.

It is a Company Grade Officer Effectiveness Report. It shows the ratings of a certain pilot (the same as mentioned in the first link) who received the same rating in all fields:

Knowledge of duties: deserted.

Performance of duties: deserted.

Effectiveness in working with others: deserted.

Leadership characteristics: deserted.

The list goes on...

Throw the book at him.


I'd like to see a readable copy. As to whether GW should be punished, if he did desert, then he should be punished the same way as the person in the article.

I'd like to see a readable copy.
Don't forget to say "please" once in a while.

listen, people desert and go awol all the time. From basic training, from their units. He's just going to get a Dishonorable Discharge and he'll be done.


I work as an MP, and we have people that have gone awol or Deserted turn themselves in to us all the time. They usually get sent to a Deserter processing center, live in a barracks for a month while they are being processed out of the military.


And just so you know. He is a Marine not a Soldier, there is a difference. Therefore he's part of the Navy, not the Army.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/03/12/marine-deserter-060312.html




I think people who desert in time of war should be punished. Right now I am aware of a deserter from the Texas Air National Guard from about the same time period. I believe he can be apprehended in or around the D.C. area.



I'll get the media! :P

listen, people desert and go awol all the time. From basic training, from their units. He's just going to get a Dishonorable Discharge and he'll be done.


I work as an MP, and we have people that have gone awol or Deserted turn themselves in to us all the time. They usually get sent to a Deserter processing center, live in a barracks for a month while they are being processed out of the military.


And just so you know. He is a Marine not a Soldier, there is a difference. Therefore he's part of the Navy, not the Army.
The Marine Corps is not part of the Navy. It's organized under the Department of the Navy as a separate service. Sorry to nitpick, but it's one of those OCD habits I have.

Just give him an Dishonorable Discharge and send him home.
Sure he deserted, but this is probably why he fled to Canada in first place.

Just shows again that there are lots of sick retarded creeps in the US :rolleyes:

The guy was smart enough to bail out of that sick Vietnam war and move to Canada, but he wasn't smart enough to stay out of the bloody US... so that's what you get for being stupid.

poeple are not allowed to change their minds?

Once they have made a legal commitment; no they are not allowed to "change their minds" without due penalty.

The Marine Corps is not part of the Navy. It's organized under the Department of the Navy as a separate service. Sorry to nitpick, but it's one of those OCD habits I have.


Thats why Marine Officers go to Annapolis?
Thats why Marine Corps spending is in the Navy Budget?
Thats why there are Marines on Ships?
Thats why the Commandant of the Marine Corps works for the Secretary of the Navy?


I'm sorry its part of the navy, has always been, and probably will always be part.