NationStates Jolt Archive

I work in a bookstore and I've come across many young girls buying these books. There are no lessons here. There is nothing to inspire young minds. It's simply a world of the Haves and the Have-nots (the Have-nots being, like, you know, a negative thing or whatever.) I know sometimes teenagers post on here: do you read them, what do you get out of them? And I know that there are parents on here: Would you let your child read these books? Would you require more literate books for them to read? And for everyone else: post what you think.

"The "Clique" novels are all about status. But sex saturates the "Gossip Girl" books, by Cecily von Ziegesar, which are about 17- and 18-year-old private school girls in Manhattan. This is not the frank sexual exploration found in a Judy Blume novel, but teenage sexuality via Juicy Couture, blasé and entirely commodified. In "Nothing Can Keep Us Together," Nate has sex with Serena in a Bergdorf's dressing room: "Nate was practically bursting as he followed Serena. . . . He grabbed her camisole and yanked it away from her body, ripping it entirely in half. . . . 'Remember when we were in the tub at my house, the summer before 10th grade?' . . . 'Yes!' 'Oh, yes!' . . . Nate began to cry as soon as it was over. The Viagra had worn off just in time."

...

"In the world of the "A-List" or "Clique" girl, inverting Austen (and Alcott), the rich are right and good simply by virtue of their wealth. Seventh graders have Palm Pilots, red Coach clutches, Visas and cellphones in Prada messenger bags. Success and failure are entirely signaled by material possessions — specifically, by brands. You know the new girl in the "Clique" novel "Best Friends for Never" is living in social limbo when she shops at J. Crew and wears Keds, and her mother drives a dreaded Taurus rather than a Lexus. In "Back in Black" the group of "A-List" teenagers spends a weekend at "the Palms Hotel and Casino"; brands are so prominent you wonder if there are product placement deals: "Vanity Fair always prepared giveaway baskets. . . . Last year's had contained a Dell portable jukebox, a bottle of Angel perfume by Thierry Mugler and a PalmOne Treo 600 Smartphone." (The copyright page of the latest "Gossip Girl" book lists credits for the clothing featured on the cover: "gold sequined top — Iris Singer, peach dress — Bibelot@Susan Greenstadt," and so on.)"

...

"Since women have been writing for and about girls, the core of the tradition has been the opposition between the rebel and the popular, often wealthy antiheroine. Sara Crewe in Frances Hodgson Burnett's "Little Princess" loses her social standing and is tormented by the school's alpha girls, but by the end of the story we see them brought low. In "Little Women," Jo March's criticism of "ladylike" social norms is challenged by an invitation to a ball; while Meg, the eldest girl, is taken in by the wealthy daughters of the house and given a makeover — which is meant to reveal not her victory as a character but her weakness.

This tradition carried on powerfully through the 20th century. Even modern remakes, like "Clueless," show the popular, superficial girl undergoing a humbling and an awakening, as she begins to question her allegiance to conformity and status.

In the "Clique" and "Gossip Girl" novels, meanwhile, every day is Freaky Friday. The girls try on adult values and customs as though they were going to wear them forever. The narratives offer the perks of the adult world not as escapist fantasy but in a creepily photorealistic way, just as the book jackets show real girls polished to an unreal gloss. It's not surprising that Cecily von Ziegesar matter-of-factly told an interviewer that she sees her books as "aspirational" (which she seemed to think was a good thing)."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/books/review/12wolf.html?pagewanted=1

I've glanced at books such as those. They feel like porn that tries to have a story.

I've glanced at books such as those. They feel like porn that tries to have a story.
If they had any redeeming value, I'd like to hear of it. It sounds like it's all about selling sex without any sort of moral to minors. Teenagers do have sex, it can and should be written about, and it should be read by those very same teenagers... but not like this.

If they had any redeeming value, I'd like to hear of it. It sounds like it's all about selling sex without any sort of moral to minors. Teenagers do have sex, it can and should be written about, and it should be read by those very same teenagers... but not like this.

Yeah, how dare they write about sex without describing it as something awful and filled with shame, and without preaching to them about morality? :rolleyes:

They're entertainment. You read them for the escapism.

Yeah, how dare they write about sex without describing it as something awful and filled with shame, and without preaching to them about morality? :rolleyes:

They're entertainment. You read them for the escapism.
I think you misunderstand me. Theres nothing wrong with sex or writing about it. Like, I said that, like, in a whole other post. But there is nothing beyond that in these books. If this were my daughter's only reading material, I'd be worried. If I found it in a stack of books between Austen and Bronte, I'd be much less worried. Reading for escapism is fine. Books are there for that. But reading only one type of book without any intelligence behind it and being a certain age isn't the greatest combination.

I think you misunderstand me. Theres nothing wrong with sex or writing about it. Like, I said that, like, in a whole other post. But there is nothing beyond that in these books. If this were my daughter's only reading material, I'd be worried. If I found it in a stack of books between Austen and Bronte, I'd be much less worried. Reading for escapism is fine. Books are there for that. But reading only one type of book without any intelligence behind it and being a certain age isn't the greatest combination.

It's no more different than boys into comic books, and those are filled with violence.

It's no more different than boys into comic books, and those are filled with violence.
You're right. I read comics when I was a kid, still do if it is good enough, but even comic books have a rating system. My idea of it being a problem is a child who only reads these types of books or, if you like, only reads comic books.

Should a 12 year old kid be reading a comic book like http://www.thegloor.com/comics/sincity/chassgail.gif

Or read a passage like:

Was there any bliss quite like the first five minutes in a hot tub? Well, yes, actually. Ben. Sex with Ben had been that kind of bliss. . . . Would sex with Scott offer that kind of bliss?"

You're right. I read comics when I was a kid, still do if it is good enough, but even comic books have a rating system. My idea of it being a problem is a child who only reads these types of books or, if you like, only reads comic books.

How do you know that's the only thing they read? I do believe you give them way too little credit.

Should a 12 year old kid be reading a comic book like http://www.thegloor.com/comics/sincity/chassgail.gif

Or read a passage like:

Was there any bliss quite like the first five minutes in a hot tub? Well, yes, actually. Ben. Sex with Ben had been that kind of bliss. . . . Would sex with Scott offer that kind of bliss?"

That's up to their parents. I read stuff like that at that age, and, believe it or not, I turned out just fine. I didn't become a pervert because of such literature - I became a pervert by my own accord. Even at 12 I could tell the difference between fact and fiction and that it was just a book, so I'm sorry to say I do not share the vision of the innocent 12-year old corrupted by this.

So far, my kids haven't picked out any books that I would have to censor, although I have had to censor some of their music choices. I would hope that I could raise my children to pick out what is good in life an to focus on that, if however they wanted to read something that I found lacking in goodness, I would use that opportunity to talk to them about why they like to read it, and try to relay what they are reading back to "real life" and perhaps start a meaningful conversation about life in general.

How do you know that's the only thing they read? I do believe you give them way too little credit.



That's up to their parents. I read stuff like that at that age, and, believe it or not, I turned out just fine. I didn't become a pervert because of such literature - I became a pervert by my own accord. Even at 12 I could tell the difference between fact and fiction and that it was just a book, so I'm sorry to say I do not share the vision of the innocent 12-year old corrupted by this.
I'm saying there is a problem if it is the only thing being read because there are no values (I am not speaking from any sort of Judeo-Christian standpoint... I mean sending a father deeper into poverty for a pair of Gucci shoes) of any sort in them. It's junk food that may have it's place for a more mature reader (a 12 year old for instance, may very well be mature for his or her age) but having only junk food is bad for you.

I recently heard a guy say on the radio that every day, since McDonald's opened, he's had 2 Big Macs for lunch and doesn't feel any bad effects from it. I assume he has a stomach of lead but that still doesn't make for a well balanced diet.

I'm saying there is a problem if it is the only thing being read because there are no values of any sort in them. It's junk food that may have it's place for a more mature reader (a 12 year old for instance, may very well be mature for his or her age) but having only junk food is bad for you.

And what is a proper "value," pray tell? And why does this need "values?"

I recently heard a guy say on the radio that every day, since McDonald's opened, he's had 2 Big Macs for lunch and doesn't feel any bad effects from it. I assume he has a stomach of lead but that still doesn't make for a well balanced diet.

Irrelevant, and flawed, analogy.

And what is a proper "value," pray tell? And why does this need "values?"



Irrelevant, and flawed, analogy.
A proper value is based on intelligence and respect for yourself and those around you. You are not good just because you have money, you are good because of the deeds you accomplish. That's one value.

I fail to see how equating the junk you put in your head and it's effects on you makes for a bad comparison to the junk you put in your stomach and those effects on you.

All I know is Voltaire would have a field day with this topic.

I mean sending a father deeper into poverty for a pair of Gucci shoes

Any father worth his salt can look into his daughter's puppy dog gaze and unbelievably cute face and say, "Fuck you ... get a job."

Any father worth his salt can look into his daughter's puppy dog gaze and unbelievably cute face and say, "Fuck you ... get a job."
If all a father did was read comic books during his developing years, he may not be worth his salt.

A proper value is based on intelligence and respect for yourself and those around you. You are not good just because you have money, you are good because of the deeds you accomplish. That's one value.

And this literature stands to erode that, just like Rock N' Roll did, right? I'm sorry, but my patience wears thin quickly with neo-moralism.

I fail to see how equating the junk you put in your head and it's effects on you makes for a bad comparison to the junk you put in your stomach and those effects on you.

Then you know very little about psychology and the human body, respectively.

All that mention of brands seem like one of those new marketing ploys to get people to buy stuff through product placement.

It's not like in American Psycho where it gave you new insight into the character, more like what happens in Revenge of the Killer Tomatoes but without the humor.

If all a father did was read comic books during his developing years, he may not be worth his salt.

Hey ... I'm a damn good father. :p

If all a father did was read comic books during his developing years, he may not be worth his salt.
A father would have to do a pretty poor job to begin with to have a daughter who would ask him for shoes when he didn't have the money for them (brand name aside).

I don't however see a link between reading material and real life actions, if the father did a poor job, most likely it's because his father did a poor job raising him.

All I know is Voltaire would have a field day with this topic.

Rousseau's Emile as a reference would have blown me away, but Voltaire will do.

I don't however see a link between reading material and real life actions, if the father did a poor job, most likely it's because his father did a poor job raising him.

True ... My 11 year old daughter is currently reading "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" by Hunter Thompson and "The Soft Machine" by William Burroughs ... wonder how armchair child psychologists think she's going to grow up ...

Rousseau's Emile as a reference would have blown me away, but Voltaire will do.

Sorry. It's NS General. I had to go a little lower brow.

Rousseau's Emile as a reference would have blown me away, but Voltaire will do.
Speaking of Voltair, "Candide" isn't the best bus reading material.

Speaking of Voltair, "Candide" isn't the best bus reading material.

Candide makes for better "I'm going to be on the toilet for the next 2 hours because I drank way too much tequila last night" reading.

True ... My 11 year old daughter is currently reading "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" by Hunter Thompson and "The Soft Machine" by William Burroughs ... wonder how armchair child psychologists think she's going to grow up ...

I bet 400 quatloos on her becoming a suicide bomber.

True ... My 11 year old daughter is currently reading "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" by Hunter Thompson and "The Soft Machine" by William Burroughs ... wonder how armchair child psychologists think she's going to grow up ...
yeah, I know. People seem to really think that the music that children listen to, the video games they play, or the books they read are what makes a huge impact on them as a person, they fail to realize that those things are secondary, they can be built upon, talked about picked apart, a good parent is a person who can guide a child on how to make good decisions, not one who censores everything leaving the child dependent on someone else to tell them what to think.

I really worry about a parent whose #1 concern is "what's in my kid's Ipod?" and isn't "what does my kid think about what's in her Ipod?"

*no my kid doesn't have an Ipod, she barely has a CD player.

Speaking of Voltair, "Candide" isn't the best bus reading material.

Why not?

Sorry. It's NS General. I had to go a little lower brow.
Oooh, so your Voltaire reference is much better than my Revenge of the Killer Tomatoes, eh? Your Voltaire so better than my Tomatoes, is that it? :)

Why not?
I've tried. I can't stay focoused as I feel the G's on those turns those drivers make. *tear*

They're entertainment. You read them for the escapism.

Ah, but they read like advertisements. I could look at the billboards while driving down the highway and get the same literary experience.

I don't have a problem with the rampant sex in these novels, though I think that if they amount to written pornography, they should be called that, and not be disguised as "having a plot."

I do have a problem with the encouragement of reckless, decadent consumerism. That is a destructive path for the human species to take, one that is already beginning to cost us.

Ah, but they read like advertisements. I could look at the billboards while driving down the highway and get the same literary experience.

Do we despair as much over Harlequin novels?

I've tried. I can't stay focoused as I feel the G's on those turns those drivers make. *tear*

What language are you reading it in? The English translation is stilted that way.

Do we despair as much over Harlequin novels?

I don't despair over these books either. But I do reserve the right to look down upon people who would read these.

I don't despair over these books either. But I do reserve the right to look down upon people who would read these.

As would I on people who read trash like Dean Koontz or Dan Brown, but I don't want to judge. It's crap, but it's entertainment. As long as they're clear on that.

What language are you reading it in? The English translation is stilted that way.
Swedish. Which really shouldn't be a problem for the most part, I can look up things in the dictionary and ask questions on phrases I don't understand. Anyhow, I've backed off and went with some thriller peice. I plan on giving it a shot after I finish some book and rebuild my ego.

Translation was made in 1975, so I wouldn't expect extremly old language to be present. Then again, I have a tendancy to not notice such things. Do Swedish scholars get off on translating into dated language? For example, in English we often get what I can only describe as Victorian era language when looking at pieces pretty much until we get past the American Civil war.

As would I on people who read trash like Dean Koontz or Dan Brown, but I don't want to judge. It's crap, but it's entertainment. As long as they're clear on that.

Ah. See, I want to judge. I'm not above thinking myself better than someone who would read this over true classics.

So far, my kids haven't picked out any books that I would have to censor, although I have had to censor some of their music choices.
That's despicable.

Swedish. Which really shouldn't be a problem for the most part, I can look up things in the dictionary and ask questions on phrases I don't understand. Anyhow, I've backed off and went with some thriller peice. I plan on giving it a shot after I finish some book and rebuild my ego.

I've not read it in Swedish, so I don't know hoe much it sucks.

Do bear in mind that all translations suck. It's just that some don't suck like others.

Translation was made in 1975, so I wouldn't expect extremly old language to be present. Then again, I have a tendancy to not notice such things. Do Swedish scholars get off on translating into dated language? For example, in English we often get what I can only describe as Victorian era language when looking at pieces pretty much until we get past the American Civil war.

You've nothing to worry about. Past the 50s the language is very lax.

Ah. See, I want to judge. I'm not above thinking myself better than someone who would read this over true classics.

Please. I have full understanding for wanting something light to wind down with.

That's despicable.
what is censoring their music? or not censoring their books?

Ah. See, I want to judge. I'm not above thinking myself better than someone who would read this over true classics.

How many teenagers do you see walking around reading "true classics"? And why should they read "true classics," anyway? Okay, Shakespeare and Orwell may have been brilliant, and existentialist plays are exceptional, but who cares what Sophocles thought on the relationship between humans and gods?

what is censoring their music? or not censoring their books?
The former. What was it? Eminem? :eek:

Kids need to find their own way in life. Censoring their lifestyle is not going to help them - indeed, it's going to turn them into something completely different from their real selves.

I firmly believe that people who abide by moralistic rules are forever unhappy because they can never let their real character come out.

The former. What was it? Eminem? :eek:
no there have only been 2 songs, Closer by NIN, which made me more than uncomfortable to have my 3 year old (at the time) running around the house singing, and actually a childrens nursery rhyme put to music that I thought was terrible

Goosey Goosey Gander where shall I wander,
Upstairs, downstairs and in my lady's chamber
There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers,
I took him by the left leg and threw him down the stairs.



Kids need to find their own way in life. Censoring their lifestyle is not going to help them - indeed, it's going to turn them into something completely different from their real selves.

I firmly believe that people who abide by moralistic rules are forever unhappy because they can never let their real character come out.
hey you don't have to tell me that.

Do bear in mind that all translations suck. It's just that some don't suck like others.
You read it in French?
This translation must be suck squared. Its based on a German translation.
Thanks for the help.

no there have only been 2 songs, Closer by NIN, which made me more than uncomfortable to have my 3 year old (at the time) running around the house singing
:D
But a three year old wouldn't understand anything about it. How could it have any effect? To the kid, it's the same as singing a wholesome family song.

Goosey Goosey Gander where shall I wander,
Upstairs, downstairs and in my lady's chamber
There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers,
I took him by the left leg and threw him down the stairs.
Isn't that the anthem of the Reborn Christian Movement?

:D
But a three year old wouldn't understand anything about it. How could it have any effect? To the kid, it's the same as singing a wholesome family song.
I said that it was making me uncomfortable, I have no qualms about her listening to it, I just don't want her singing it at the top of her lungs when I am on the phone with my nosey in-laws.


Isn't that the anthem of the Reborn Christian Movement?
it most certainly is not. (http://www.rhymes.org.uk/goosey_goosey_gander.htm)

I said that it was making me uncomfortable, I have no qualms about her listening to it, I just don't want her singing it at the top of her lungs when I am on the phone with my nosey in-laws.
Pffft. Squares.

it most certainly is not. (http://www.rhymes.org.uk/goosey_goosey_gander.htm)
Interesting.
But the notion of religious intolerance is still the same today. Let's just say that I cannot stand the Reborns, and that I think the world would be better off if they wouldn't get listened to so much.

Pffft. Squares. indeed.


Interesting.
But the notion of religious intolerance is still the same today. Let's just say that I cannot stand the Reborns, and that I think the world would be better off if they wouldn't get listened to so much.
but isn't it intolerant that you don't like the "Reborns" as you call them? Couldn't you just as well be tolerant of their existence, they would probably leave you alone more often if they didn't feel attacked.

btw what exactly is your definition of Reborn? (just in case I am one)

but isn't it intolerant that you don't like the "Reborns" as you call them? Couldn't you just as well be tolerant of their existence, they would probably leave you alone more often if they didn't feel attacked.
I think it's part of their culture to constantly feel attacked.

Ultimately I can live with anyone having a religion. I just don't want them to start trying to influence other people's lives, especially through politics.

btw what exactly is your definition of Reborn? (just in case I am one)
You know, born again Christians, who then feel the need to tell everyone and everything about their faith, followed by attempts to regulate other people's lives. Religion has no place in government, and that means that a government has to be atheistic.
You cannot be neutral between "I believe in Jesus" and "I don't believe in Jesus".

what if I am a born again Christian who tells people about my faith but respects seperation of church and state, and keeps my religion out of my political views as much as humanly possible?

what if I am a born again Christian who tells people about my faith but respects seperation of church and state, and keeps my religion out of my political views as much as humanly possible?
Then I'd doubt your honesty? ;)

Why do you want to talk about your faith with people who don't believe in the same things?
I watched a show last week about American missionaries in Morocco, and I was appalled during the entire thing. This self-righteousness, this disgusting 18th century approach. It's revolting.

Then I'd doubt your honesty? ;)

Why do you want to talk about your faith with people who don't believe in the same things?
I watched a show last week about American missionaries in Morocco, and I was appalled during the entire thing. This self-righteousness, this disgusting 18th century approach. It's revolting.
huh. I support missions financially, I will be doing some mission work later this year or early next. I don't see what's wrong with it. I suppose you probably wouldn't like me much.

huh. I support missions financially, I will be doing some mission work later this year or early next. I don't see what's wrong with it. I suppose you probably wouldn't like me much.
Once some church group came to my house and wanted to talk to me about Christianity. I asked them whether they were Jehova's Witnesses, and they said "No, we're not some cult." I said: "Yes you are" and slammed the door shut in their faces.

Why don't these people respect me and my intellect enough to allow me to make my own choices in life?

Once some church group came to my house and wanted to talk to me about Christianity. I asked them whether they were Jehova's Witnesses, and they said "No, we're not some cult." I said: "Yes you are" and slammed the door shut in their faces.

Why don't these people respect me and my intellect enough to allow me to make my own choices in life?
we were given a comandment to go out into all lands and tell everyone about Christ, apparently their travels led them to your doorstep.

we were given a comandment to go out into all lands and tell everyone about Christ, apparently their travels led them to your doorstep.
You didn't answer my question though:

Why don't you respect other peoples' ability to make choices using their head, their heart or anything else they wish to use?

If I want to know about Christianity, I will myself make the effort and find out about it, using books, films, or even approaching a church. I don't need the church approaching me, and neither does some Morrocan dude.

You didn't answer my question though:

Why don't you respect other peoples' ability to make choices using their head, their heart or anything else they wish to use?

If I want to know about Christianity, I will myself make the effort and find out about it, using books, films, or even approaching a church. I don't need the church approaching me, and neither does some Morrocan dude.
we have been comanded by God (Jesus actually, but yeah, same thing) to go out and preach the gospel, we aren't trying to force you to do anything, we are just letting you know the choice (as we see it)

we have been comanded by God (Jesus actually, but yeah, same thing) to go out and preach the gospel, we aren't trying to force you to do anything, we are just letting you know the choice (as we see it)
That's what bugs me about evangelising. You are shoving it in people's faces whether thet want it or not.

And this literature stands to erode that, just like Rock N' Roll did, right? I'm sorry, but my patience wears thin quickly with neo-moralism.



Then you know very little about psychology and the human body, respectively.
Maybe this "literature" as you call it would erode that if it were written by the children it is sold to. These books are sold on the premise that sex sells. And they are written by adults. There is no type of movement going on here. There is only a strengthened sense of comformity to look the same, talk the same and even fuck the same. "Blow jobs are so out," as one character says.

Add to this the amount of social pressure already put on a girl and you have just one more ingredient to them feeling unworthy if they don't have the looks, the clothes, the money or the social status of the girls being written about. This could be leisurely reading for a young girl that has tackled Pride and Prejudice on her own but to another that is already experimenting with anorexia and bulimia, you've just given her someone she can look up to. And with out any of the "escapist" benefits you speak about.

I am not talking about censorship but what I am talking about is raising awareness about what is written and if a parent feels that this is not what her child should be reading, because of issues which could be health related, there is no reason why the parent should not know what is depicted in these books.

That's what bugs me about evangelising. You are shoving it in people's faces whether thet want it or not.
yep. lot's of people do it, not just the religious.

True ... My 11 year old daughter is currently reading "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" by Hunter Thompson and "The Soft Machine" by William Burroughs ... wonder how armchair child psychologists think she's going to grow up ...
Sounds like she can deal with some Hard Core Von Ziegesar action. But reading stuff of worth like that, why would she want the emptiness?

All I know is Voltaire would have a field day with this topic.
This has been rolling around in my head the whole time I was at the movies watching Block Party, tonight. I'm sorry that I have to share it.

"Without Von Ziegesar's vomitting blonde, there would be nothing to remind us of the glory of America."

Voltaire wrote: "Without the shitting duck, there would be nothing to remind us of the glory of France."

In "Nothing Can Keep Us Together," Nate has sex with Serena in a Bergdorf's dressing room: "Nate was practically bursting as he followed Serena. . . . He grabbed her camisole and yanked it away from her body, ripping it entirely in half. . . . 'Remember when we were in the tub at my house, the summer before 10th grade?' . . . 'Yes!' 'Oh, yes!' . . . Nate began to cry as soon as it was over. The Viagra had worn off just in time."

Nate's either gay (not that there's anything wrong with that) or impotent (not that there's anything wrong with that) and probably emotionally disturbed (not that there's anything wrong with that). Frankly, I'm sick already about hearing of Nate's sex life, and I hope he dies (not that there's anything wrong with that).

we have been comanded by God (Jesus actually, but yeah, same thing) to go out and preach the gospel, we aren't trying to force you to do anything, we are just letting you know the choice (as we see it)
In other words, your god tells you that I am a lesser being.

Gee, thanks!

In other words, your god tells you that I am a lesser being.

Gee, thanks!
you are not a lesser being. (well, lesser than God, but we all are)

We are called to let you know what we think is the truth, how you deal with it is your decision.

We are called to let you know what we think is the truth, how you deal with it is your decision.
You know the truth, I don't, and god tells you that I am incapable to find the truth if he doesn't send people to hassle me, right? That tells me that you are supposed to think of me as a lesser being.

Why would I want anything to do with a god who doubts me like that?

You know the truth, I don't, and god tells you that I am incapable to find the truth if he doesn't send people to hassle me, right? That tells me that you are supposed to think of me as a lesser being.

Why would I want anything to do with a god who doubts me like that?
never thought of that. I don't know.

I don't see it that way, but I won't bore you with my worldview....see? I can leave you alone about it :D

we have been comanded by God (Jesus actually, but yeah, same thing) to go out and preach the gospel, we aren't trying to force you to do anything, we are just letting you know the choice (as we see it)

What about people who make the wrong choice? What happens to them?

What about people who make the wrong choice? What happens to them?
what do I believe? they go to hell, I can't prove it or anything though, so don't ask.

...see? I can leave you alone about it :D
Jolly good. :)

Jolly good. :)
maybe we can get along ;)

what do I believe? they go to hell, I can't prove it or anything though, so don't ask.

Okay. So then, if said deity (allegedly all-loving and all-merciful) is so cruel and narcissistic that He will send people like me to horrific torture for eternity simply because we don't properly abase ourselves before Him, why in the world (aside from the desire to avoid said torture) should I honor such a vile being, even if He does in fact exist?

Okay. So then, if said deity (allegedly all-loving and all-merciful) is so cruel and narcissistic that He will send people like me to horrific torture for eternity simply because we don't properly abase ourselves before Him, why in the world (aside from the desire to avoid said torture) should I honor such a vile being, even if He does in fact exist?
don't know. That's not the God I serve. If however that's how you view the choice, I can see why you would be unwilling to convert.

I read my kids the opinion section of the news paper and explain to them how the mean christian just made an ass out of himself.

yep. lot's of people do it, not just the religious.
I know I do.

Wow....they are like porn in book form. I know a girl who reads them ALL the time.

I read my kids the opinion section of the news paper and explain to them how the mean christian just made an ass out of himself.
heh. Me too. ;)

(except in addition to the "mean Christian" we also talk about the "lazy liberal" and the "head in his ass rebublican" ;) you know pretty much everyone who makes an ass out of themselves.)

Wow....they are like porn in book form. I know a girl who reads them ALL the time.
What are her other interests to keep her occupied?