NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: Many of the Europeans who are so ready to criticise virtually everything about America, should focus on getting their own house in order. Seems many of them still indulge in their own peculiar version of racial discrimination.


Separate and Unequal for Gypsies (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/opinion/11sat3.html?th&emc=th)


Published: March 11, 2006
For all the difficulties Muslim immigrants face, Europe's most-abused group is still, by far, the Gypsies. They are compelled to live in slums, shunted off to inferior schools and denied jobs. They are subjected to pogroms, forced sterilization and police abuse.

The view that Gypsies, also known as Roma, are capable of only playing the violin and picking pockets is widely and deeply held, especially in Eastern Europe. Many there still believe the Communist humbug that says discrimination is found in America and South Africa, not in Europe.

Sadly, the European Court of Human Rights has just backed one of the worst forms of discrimination: the nearly automatic placement of Gypsy children in dead-end schools for the mentally handicapped. The case was brought by families of 18 Czech Gypsy children, but according to the European Roma Rights Center, based in Budapest, similar discrimination exists throughout Eastern Europe. The Czech government estimates that 75 percent of Gypsy children go to these schools, and that 90 percent of the children in Czech remedial schools are Gypsies.

The court's majority, made up largely of Eastern Europeans, acknowledged the problem but found no proof that bigotry was the cause. The president of the panel, a Frenchman, voted with the majority but recommended that the case go to the court's appeals body.

Decades ago, America painfully learned that government policies and social attitudes could keep an underclass down, and that discrimination might exist even though laws seemed fair. Europe has not yet absorbed these ideas. The Court of Human Rights has long been reluctant to prohibit biased practices without proof of intent to discriminate, allowing discrimination to hide behind another name. The court should seize the opportunity to modernize and reverse a decision that has anchored European race relations today well behind where America was in 1954.

I wonder how many of the replies to this will be on the lines of "that's all very well, but everyone knows all gyppos are thieving bastards."

Wow, that discrimination is bad; almost as bad as blaming the actions of a few idiots on an entire continent.

I wonder how many of the replies to this will be on the lines of "that's all very well, but everyone knows all gyppos are thieving bastards."
well lets count them

that's all very well, but everyone knows all gyppos are thieving bastards.

1;)

Everybody knows that Europeans are too enlightened to be racist. Only barbaric Americans can be racist.

Congratulations Americans. You've found out that Europe also has racists, bigots and idiots in it as well as your country.

Kudos.

I've known about this discrimination of the Roma for a long time. I've even volunteered at two charities which helped out Roma. The discrimination against Roma even in the UK is dispicable and they are treated as second class citizens.

The Chair of the Commission for Racial Equality has gone as far to say that discrimination against Roma is the 'last 'respectable' form of racism in Britain'.

Congratulations Americans. You've found out that Europe also has racists, bigots and idiots in it as well as your country.


Hot damn! Alert the press!

Hot damn! Alert the press!

I know! Who would have thought it - we Europeans aren't quite as good as we advertise we are! Just like the US!

Hot damn! Alert the press!Goddamn looks better in my opinion, and we should spread the word about bad old Europe being so mean!

I know! Who would have thought it - we Europeans aren't quite as good as we advertise we are! Just like the US!

We're just better looking.

Congratulations Americans. You've found out that Europe also has racists, bigots and idiots in it as well as your country.
Kudos.
I'm racist, you're racist, we're all racist!!!

"Many of..." is a great way to formulate oneself. It allows room for implying that what one claims holds true for a large portion, even the majority, of the group the claims are made against, yet still leaves one able to hide from accusations of making unfair generalizations.

Having read the article wouldn't it be more accurate to say 'eastern europeans' as apparently it is in Eastern Europe that the problem lies?

Having read the article wouldn't it be more accurate to say 'eastern europeans' as apparently it is in Eastern Europe that the problem lies?

Well Europe is east of the US. ;)

Oh shut it. And that goes to all of you.

OF COURSE Europe isn't all hunky-dory. Neither is America. Neither is any other place on Earth...in this universe, at least. Eutrusca, this isn't a huge revelation, and acting like it is makes Americans look bad.

WITH THAT SAID

Methinks that Europeans DO need to check in on their own stuff before critisizing us. Worry about your own countries, and we'll worry about ours. Let us all take care of the problems in our own household before running up to the neighbor's and bashing their door down because of their problem.

Having read the article wouldn't it be more accurate to say 'eastern europeans' as apparently it is in Eastern Europe that the problem lies?

Discrimination against the Roma is rife throughout Europe. In the UK there is severe bigotry and hatred against them, as well as against the Irish traveller groups.

Worry about your own countries, and we'll worry about ours. Let us all take care of the problems in our own household before running up to the neighbor's and bashing their door down because of their problem.
Damn straight. Rwandan genocide? Pffft, not our problem. Ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia? Ah, forget about it.

I've been speaking about this problem for a very long time - I think one of the first threads I was involved in on these fora was a thread about the Roma people and their plight. Going to Eastern Europe can be a very shocking experience if you go past the touristy things and see how these people are treated.

Unfortunately, since prejudice drives them into crime, seeing as they are left no alternative, the prejudice is "confirmed" and the reputation of the Roma is very bad, even in the West, where while not governmentally discriminated in this fashion, still have a very hard time getting into normal society. It's all very depressing. :(

Damn straight. Rwandan genocide? Pffft, not our problem. Ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia? Ah, forget about it.
First, please don't EVER use the phrase ethnic cleansing in my presence again. That is merely a clean way to refer to genocide, and in fact implies in its own wording that genocide is right. It disgusts me.

...

Second, I think you do have a point there. I'm not sure what would be the proper compromise, really. Do you have any suggestions?

I've known about this discrimination of the Roma for a long time. I've even volunteered at two charities which helped out Roma. The discrimination against Roma even in the UK is dispicable and they are treated as second class citizens.

The Chair of the Commission for Racial Equality has gone as far to say that discrimination against Roma is the 'last 'respectable' form of racism in Britain'.

To be fair the Roma do not pay tax, live in areas where they are not allowed to live according to the councils of local areas and are often (but not always) guilty of leaving the area in a state of squalor when they are forced to leave by the police. Untill a larger section of the Roma population behaves according to the law, they will continue to be prosecuted by those laws. And prosecution under law is not discrimination unless the law specifies racial groups. And these laws do not.

Discrimination against the Roma is rife throughout Europe. In the UK there is severe bigotry and hatred against them, as well as against the Irish traveller groups.

Much of that is rooted in the tendancies of some groups to set up camp illegally on public ground, dump waste and litter wherever they please on the site, fight a long and costly legal battle at the expense of the tax-payer for their right to remain (illegally) on the land, and then (should they lose) promptly move on to another patch of land with complete disregard for the law.

Second, I think you do have a point there. I'm not sure what would be the proper compromise, really. Do you have any suggestions?
Apologies.

My point is that we should butt our noses into other countries' business. Yes, there is a problem in Europe - I'm certainly not denying that. I remember in Poland discussing attitudes to various ethnic groups, and was pretty surprised to find just the level of hatred towards the Roma. And I don't think there's anything wrong with Americans, or anyone else, speaking up about it, and demanding change. But it swings both ways, and I don't think there existing a problem in Europe precludes Europeans from criticising racism in America. I'm suggesting that 'countries' and 'nations' breed intolerance and war; we're all humans, of one race, in one world, and what goes on in other political areas is very much our business.

Having read the article wouldn't it be more accurate to say 'eastern europeans' as apparently it is in Eastern Europe that the problem lies?

Perhaps you should look ito how the British treat the Travellers. *nod*

Apologies.

My point is that we should butt our noses into other countries' business. Yes, there is a problem in Europe - I'm certainly not denying that. I remember in Poland discussing attitudes to various ethnic groups, and was pretty surprised to find just the level of hatred towards the Roma. And I don't think there's anything wrong with Americans, or anyone else, speaking up about it, and demanding change. But it swings both ways, and I don't think there existing a problem in Europe precludes Europeans from criticising racism in America. I'm suggesting that 'countries' and 'nations' breed intolerance and war; we're all humans, of one race, in one world, and what goes on in other political areas is very much our business.
It certainly seems reasonable. There is, however, a problem: most people refuse to see it both ways. They see it as perfectly justifiable for them to butt in, but when someone pokes into their business, WATCH OUT THEY'RE GONNA GO NUTS! In short, we need a compromise. Of course, the odds of you or I coming up with one when centuries of various governments have failed are rather unlikely at best.

Perhaps you should look ito how the British treat the Travellers. *nod*

While I confess that I'm not particularly well informed on the subject of their treatment it is true that many traveller groups act with utter disregard for the law. If you would like to offer me a link then I would be happy to read it.

It certainly seems reasonable. There is, however, a problem: most people refuse to see it both ways. They see it as perfectly justifiable for them to butt in, but when someone pokes into their business, WATCH OUT THEY'RE GONNA GO NUTS! In short, we need a compromise. Of course, the odds of you or I coming up with one when centuries of various governments have failed are rather unlikely at best.
This article is about how people treat Roma like shit. People - including myself - are stupid. Being concerned about what people 'might think' isn't ever going to accomplish anything. I think the OP did a good thing in raising an important issue, but I disliked the tone - which seemed to me "you sort your country out, and keep out of our affairs". Bullshit; why not both work together? Yes, you're right, a lot of people probably do object to their business being dabbled in, but I don't really see that as a theoretical obstacle to increasing international dialogue.

While I confess that I'm not particularly well informed on the subject of their treatment it is true that many traveller groups act with utter disregard for the law. If you would like to offer me a link then I would be happy to read it.

Start with wikipedia. *nod*

Unfortunately, since prejudice drives them into crime, seeing as they are left no alternative, the prejudice is "confirmed" and the reputation of the Roma is very bad, even in the West, where while not governmentally discriminated in this fashion, still have a very hard time getting into normal society. It's all very depressing. :(

Yes, these people are discriminated against. I saw it when I lived in Spain for four years. However, prejudice and discrimination does not "drive them into crime." Many people and groups throughout the world have been discriminated against and they did not become criminals, just as I am sure there are many Roma who are not criminals and are fine people.

It is time for people to quit using discrimination as an excuse for their choice to live a life of crime. :(

Yes, these people are discriminated against. I saw it when I lived in Spain for four years. However, prejudice and discrimination does not "drive them into crime." Many people and groups throughout the world have been discriminated against and they did not become criminals, just as I am sure there are many Roma who are not criminals and are fine people.

It is time for people to quit using discrimination as an excuse for their choice to live a life of crime. :(

Of course they aren't all criminals, but they are overrepresented. The reason for that is not them being Roma, as little as the overrepresentation of black people in the US is due to them being black. It's because they are lower class due to a history of being disadvantaged, and that they continue to be. The poor and disenfranchised have always been more prone to crime, for obvious reasons, and it is thus sad to see people use that not to help them, but to beat them over the head with. I was pointing out the vicious circle that needs to be broken.

Trust me, if you ever went to a school as a kid where there were loads of gypos, or you had kids that were going to one, then you'd be wishing for these measures to be taken.

Trust me, if you ever went to a school as a kid where there were loads of gypos, or you had kids that were going to one, then you'd be wishing for these measures to be taken.

Ahhh, and here comes the first rascist bigot. Tell me sir, what evidence do you offer to back up your allegations?

Ahhh, and here comes the first rascist bigot. Tell me sir, what evidence do you offer to back up your allegations?

They're smelly and they look like penis shaped potatoes!

They're smelly and they look like penis shaped potatoes!

Mmm, potatoes and smelly penises...

Ahhh, and here comes the first rascist bigot. Tell me sir, what evidence do you offer to back up your allegations?
The area I live in was victim to a gypsy invasion. They were complete animals. They smahed up the local doctors surgery for no reason. They burgled peoples houses. They smahed windows. They used people's gardens as toilets. They also went to my school for a little while after the council started getting on their high horses about truancy. The results were predictable. Thankfully they were evicted soon after.

The area I live in was victim to a gypsy invasion. They were complete animals. They smahed up the local doctors surgery for no reason. They burgled peoples houses. They smahed windows. They used people's gardens as toilets. They also went to my school for a little while after the council started getting on their high horses about truancy. The results were predictable. Thankfully they were evicted soon after.
1. The Eastern European Roma of which this thread was originally about are completely distinct from the Irish-descent travellers of this country.
2. Maybe, just maybe, these people have acted like this because they're treated like outcasts, and thus this becomes their role and model to act?

And to Eutrusca, of course there's racism in Europe, but we don't incarcerate more black people than we send to college, and there's more mixed-race marriages in London than in the entire US - so which is the less discriminatory and more integrated culture?

Of course they aren't all criminals, but they are overrepresented. The reason for that is not them being Roma, as little as the overrepresentation of black people in the US is due to them being black. It's because they are lower class due to a history of being disadvantaged, and that they continue to be. The poor and disenfranchised have always been more prone to crime, for obvious reasons, and it is thus sad to see people use that not to help them, but to beat them over the head with. I was pointing out the vicious circle that needs to be broken.

Sorry Fass, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying because they are discriminated against they had no choice but to become criminals, rather than they chose to become criminals. I’m sure their soico-economic status has a large influence on the choices they make, and it is unfortunate that a high percentage of socio-economic disadvantaged people choose a life of crime. Sad.

The area I live in was victim to a gypsy invasion. They were complete animals. They smahed up the local doctors surgery for no reason. They burgled peoples houses. They smahed windows. They used people's gardens as toilets. They also went to my school for a little while...

How many of them were involved in this "invasion?"

1. The Eastern European Roma of which this thread was originally about are completely distinct from the Irish-descent travellers of this country.
I should have clarified that, this was one of the few cases of romany gypsies in the UK. You don't get many here, so it was a surprise to see them set up camp here. I expected them to be a bit more civilised than the Irish gypos, but they were just as bad. Why the hell do we let these people into this country in the first place? Actually, I think I know the answer to that - the EU.

2. Maybe, just maybe, these people have acted like this because they're treated like outcasts, and thus this becomes their role and model to act?
No excuse, they have free will.

To be fair the Roma do not pay tax, live in areas where they are not allowed to live according to the councils of local areas and are often (but not always) guilty of leaving the area in a state of squalor when they are forced to leave by the police. Untill a larger section of the Roma population behaves according to the law, they will continue to be prosecuted by those laws. And prosecution under law is not discrimination unless the law specifies racial groups. And these laws do not.Don't be so sure.

The point of the matter is that the Roma ARE discriminated against because local authorities don't like people who aren't settled. They like everything to be neat and tidy and organised. For them, the Roma screw this up for them, they move around fairly frequently - so local authorites can't keep files on them and put them into neat little boxes. If the application of the law doesn't discriminate against the Roma, than the law itself discriminates against the Roma for their more nomadic lifestyle.

That's all in spite of the at least 50% of Roma being settled and yet they are still persecuted by local authorities. The vast majority DO pay taxes and DO live in accordance with local authority rules. Yet local autorities reject quadruple the ratio of Roma requests for planing permission compared to the national average. Furthermore, of the 28% of Roma who do live on unauthorised sites 43% own the land they live on.

Please check the facts against your prejudices before you post.
http://www.cre.gov.uk/gdpract/g_and_t_facts.html

Do you even know how fucking hard it is to get a Roma child into school? The amount of prejudice I came up against. The school claimed that the child, among other excuses, wouldn't be in the area for long enough. For fucks sake, she lived in a house! She was as damn settled as you could get.

I'll stop ranting now, but discrimination against Roma is something I've put a lot of work to bring to an end. So such obivious and unfounded prejudice really gets to me.

And to Eutrusca, of course there's racism in Europe, but we don't incarcerate more black people than we send to college, and there's more mixed-race marriages in London than in the entire US - so which is the less discriminatory and more integrated culture?

So, it is OK to be a racist as long as you send more of "them" to college than you do to prison and as long as you have more inter-racial marrages than another country?

How many of them were involved in this "invasion?"
A few dozen caravans.

1. The Eastern European Roma of which this thread was originally about are completely distinct from the Irish-descent travellers of this country.The current theory is that they are related. Though you wouldn't realise it what with the animosity begin Roma and Travellers that you sometimes get.

The theory is that the Roma orginate from the Indian sub-continent. The name Gypsy originates from when Europeans first mistook them for Egyptians because of their dark skin. After extended periods of migrations some Roma got to Ireland where eventually some converted to Catholism and married into Irish families. Thus having the colour of their skin toned down, but keeping many of the Roma traditions and creating a lot of new ones as Irish and Catholic culture merged with Roma culture.

A few dozen caravans.

And there were a total of about ??? people?

And there were a total of about ??? people?
I dunno, I didn't count them. At a guess, I'd say about 300 people.

A few dozen caravans.Which city/town do you live in? Just so I look up the infomation for myself.

I dunno, I didn't count them. At a guess, I'd say about 300 people.

So 300 people represent an entire people?

I dunno, I didn't count them. At a guess, I'd say about 300 people.You're telling me that there were over 12 people per caravan?! Whatever.

You're telling me that there were over 12 people per caravan?! Whatever.
I said a few dozen, genius. There were a hell of a lot of caravans there. Besides, it was a few years ago, and I hardly did a survey on it.

I dunno, I didn't count them. At a guess, I'd say about 300 people.

Well, you don't have any idea approximately how many of these people "invaded" your town. You are not sure how many caravans they were living in. Maybe you are not sure if it was them or some local vandals that "tore up the town."

I said a few dozen, genius. There were a hell of a lot of caravans there. Besides, it was a few years ago, and I hardly did a survey on it.

Well, a few dozen could be 2, 3, or 4. If it was 6 you probably would have said "a half dozen." I just don't understand that you remember all the damage they did and how they acted, but you can't even give us a clear idea of how many people there were. In any case, it doesn't sound like there was an "invasion" as you first stated. :rolleyes:

1. The Eastern European Roma of which this thread was originally about are completely distinct from the Irish-descent travellers of this country.
2. Maybe, just maybe, these people have acted like this because they're treated like outcasts, and thus this becomes their role and model to act?

And to Eutrusca, of course there's racism in Europe, but we don't incarcerate more black people than we send to college, and there's more mixed-race marriages in London than in the entire US - so which is the less discriminatory and more integrated culture?

Mayhap that is because there is not as large a percentage of black people in the UK as in the US? The US, despite what certain vocal minorities would like to believe, is rapidly becoming a nation where the majority is NOT from Northern Europe. Is that a bad thing? Not from where I sit.

It stands to reason if you have more purple people in your population, more purple people will end up in any category you care to choose.

Really. Gypsies should move back to the mainland instead of being spoonfed OUR benefits.

Really. Gypsies should move back to the mainland instead of being spoonfed OUR benefits.

Yeah, I agree, send them all to the mainland (UK)! :p

j/k.

But of course, the eastern european countries are the majority of That council and they tend to be more prejudiced.

Really. Gypsies should move back to the mainland instead of being spoonfed OUR benefits.

So, why not change your benefits system to make it less attracive to them?

Really. Gypsies should move back to the mainland instead of being spoonfed OUR benefits.Right, a government that appears to be so desparate to keep the Roma moving and not give them any related rates services is suddenly desparate to give them benefits as well?

The vast majority of Roma, just like another other ethnic group in the UK, pay their taxes and thus deserve any benefits they claim.

The Roma have been in the UK somewhere between 1500 to 500 years. So by your standsdards which should get rid of the Irish scroungers, the Pakistani scroungers, the Indian scroungers,the Polish scroungers, the Carribean scroungers, the Czech scroungers - everyone who isn't a pure bred anglo-saxon.

A few dozen caravans.

OK, I call bullshit.

If there really were "a few dozen caravans."The right-wing press and parties would have been all over it with headlines such "Gypo Army Invades and Pillages."

OK, I call bullshit.

If there really were "a few dozen caravans."The right-wing press and parties would have been all over it with headlines such "Gypo Army Invades and Pillages."

You know, these Gypsies are sounding more and more like my kind of people. :)

So by your standsdards which should get rid of ... - everyone who isn't a pure bred anglo-saxon.

Wow, that would leave the UK almost deserted. :D

The Roma have been in the UK somewhere between 1500 to 500 years. So by your standsdards which should get rid ... - everyone who isn't a pure bred anglo-saxon.

Oh noes!

Don't send me to the Netherlands :)

Oh noes!

Don't send me to the Netherlands :)I'd either get sent to Ireland or the Netherlands. You wouldn't hear me complaining. Except that I couldn't speak the language... that;d only apply if I got sent off to Holand though.

OK, I call bullshit.

If there really were "a few dozen caravans."The right-wing press and parties would have been all over it with headlines such "Gypo Army Invades and Pillages."It could have been a few dozen. The largest sites in the UK are about than 40 patches (which in my view is far too large). 20 patches per site is probably pushing it and about 10 patches per site is probably ideal. Not too many familes so they can still be able to fit into the community, but not too few to prevent them forming a mini neighbourhood as well.

With regards towards the problems that communities can face when accomodating Roma. All this problems could be very simply fixed by local councils providing an adequate number of sites (like they used to when they were legally obliged (pre 1994). When local councils work with Roma and Travellers they get no problems. All they have to do is provide enough authorised sites and include skips and portaloos with the services that provide to other residents. If they do this they'll find that get no problems, and have their rates paid promptly.

I saw a program on ABC's "Foreign Correspondent" a while ago about Gypsies in Britain.

It was largely about a mother of eight, who lived in a caravan, and who only lived off welfare. She said she didn't want to work, and that sitting at home was part of her culture.
That sorta pissed me off, because that's no different from any other trailer trash.

But she also said that no one would want to employ her because she was a gypsy, and in the local bar there had been repeated cases of gangs bashing single gypsy dudes, so maybe she had a point.

But anyways, "traditional culture" is all fine and dandy, but I can't condone people trying to live outside society like that, and still getting paid welfare money.

That sorta pissed me off, because that's no different from any other trailer trash.

Please define "trailer trash." Thank you.

I saw a program on ABC's "Foreign Correspondent" a while ago about Gypsies in Britain.

It was largely about a mother of eight, who lived in a caravan, and who only lived off welfare. She said she didn't want to work, and that sitting at home was part of her culture.
That sorta pissed me off, because that's no different from any other trailer trash.

But she also said that no one would want to employ her because she was a gypsy, and in the local bar there had been repeated cases of gangs bashing single gypsy dudes, so maybe she had a point.

But anyways, "traditional culture" is all fine and dandy, but I can't condone people trying to live outside society like that, and still getting paid welfare money.

They are in GB? Wow? The only time I ever saw some was in Italy....

Please define "trailer trash." Thank you.

They don't have any in Oklahoma? :eek:

;)

Please define "trailer trash." Thank you.
You know, poor white people with American accents. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trailer_trash

Aah..naturaly Eutrusca choose an article which jumps at the oportunity to "proof" how "enlightened" Americans are. And in the same breath wants to tell us what we should do.:rolleyes:
Decades ago, America painfully learned that government policies and social attitudes could keep an underclass down, and that discrimination might exist even though laws seemed fair. Europe has not yet absorbed these ideas. The Court of Human Rights has long been reluctant to prohibit biased practices without proof of intent to discriminate, allowing discrimination to hide behind another name. The court should seize the opportunity to modernize and reverse a decision that has anchored European race relations today well behind where America was in 1954.

Gypsies regularly steal stuff off construction sites (indeed it's usually gypsies), which is why I dislike them. Politically incorrect, meh. They're a criminal class, and that's just calling it what it is.