NationStates Jolt Archive

Big what-if, sometime between 1934 and 1937 a Fascist government takes power in the British Isles and allies itself with the Fascists in Germany and Italy. How does the rest of the war go?

Oh boy! Theoretical history! Maybe I'll have some ice cream. mmmm

What, you mean what if Mosley got his way?

hmmm German Army plus Royal Navy....

Luftwaffe+RAF....

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!


Well France may not have even wanted to fight Germany, Italy, Britain, especially with Fascist spain on their other border, they'd be completely surrounded.



I could actually see france go neutral While britain, Germany and Italy go after the Soviet Union. While the United States and Japan spar in the pacific. If facist britain was allied with the Axis, Japan may have either, A. Concentrated their forces on China, or B. Concentrated them against the US in Hawaii and Alaska.


It'd be a very different war and I can't think of who would have won.

While the United States and Japan spar in the pacific. If facist britain was allied with the Axis, Japan may have either, A. Concentrated their forces on China, or B. Concentrated them against the US in Hawaii and Alaska.

Japan may not even have to go to war with USA, since if they can always get oil from their Axis partners now

Japan may not even have to go to war with USA, since if they can always get oil from their Axis partners now


Where are their axis partners getting their oil?

Japan would still be dependant on someone for oil, they'd either have to go to the Phillipines or Dutch East Indies to secure their OWN supply.

You have to understand their mindset, how can they be the greatest power in Asia and still have to rely on the West.

Tea Time is enforced. No one notices.

Where are their axis partners getting their oil?

Japan would still be dependant on someone for oil, they'd either have to go to the Phillipines or Dutch East Indies to secure their OWN supply.

You have to understand their mindset, how can they be the greatest power in Asia and still have to rely on the West.

Well, if they join the Axis they'll have British oil for example

Well, if they join the Axis they'll have British oil for example



You don't understand the japanese, they HATED being dependant on anyone for anything. It was big pride thing for them. And it wasn't just oil it was american scrap metal as well.

They were going to go for teh Dutch East Indies Regardless. They needed the Rubber and Oil. Plus they still would have been fighting in China.

Hmmm, Hitler would've been happy. That was sort of the idea for some time in the Nazi top ranks - that Britain would join Germany against the evils of Bolchevism.

So depending on what exactly the regime in the UK would look like, they might or might not join the war (alá Franco) - I'll assume that they do.

Germany would still demand the concessions of Versailles back from France. I don't think France would agree, even without British support. So they'd get soundly beaten, although I don't think the British could have helped much more than taking a few channel ports and giving air support.

Against the Soviet Union Britain could lend better support, although it would still not be mindblowingly great. Even at its height, at the end of the war, the British ground forces were only 2.9 million or so - impressive, but nowhere near the levels of Germany and the USSR. Nonetheless, the support would have helped.

Most importantly though, Britain would have had Germany's back, had protected Axis Trade Routes, isolated the US and freed German divisions for the Eastern Front. So the USSR could have been beaten.

The question in the Pacific is whether Japan could have been content with just getting Dutch and French posessions and China, without threatening British colonies. If yes, an attack on the US could have put severe pressure on it from both sides, and from Canada (a pretty important factor: an Axis-Commonwealth could have fought the US at home).

So in that case, I don't think the US could have survived it either - with a BEF, Canadian and German troops attacking from the North, Japanese fleets in the West and both the German and British Navies in the West, America would have been screwed.

Hmmm, Hitler would've been happy. That was sort of the idea for some time in the Nazi top ranks - that Britain would join Germany against the evils of Bolchevism.

So depending on what exactly the regime in the UK would look like, they might or might not join the war (alá Franco) - I'll assume that they do.

Germany would still demand the concessions of Versailles back from France. I don't think France would agree, even without British support. So they'd get soundly beaten, although I don't think the British could have helped much more than taking a few channel ports and giving air support.

Against the Soviet Union Britain could lend better support, although it would still not be mindblowingly great. Even at its height, at the end of the war, the British ground forces were only 2.9 million or so - impressive, but nowhere near the levels of Germany and the USSR. Nonetheless, the support would have helped.

Most importantly though, Britain would have had Germany's back, had protected Axis Trade Routes, isolated the US and freed German divisions for the Eastern Front. So the USSR could have been beaten.

The question in the Pacific is whether Japan could have been content with just getting Dutch and French posessions and China, without threatening British colonies. If yes, an attack on the US could have put severe pressure on it from both sides, and from Canada (a pretty important factor: an Axis-Commonwealth could have fought the US at home).

So in that case, I don't think the US could have survived it either - with a BEF, Canadian and German troops attacking from the North, Japanese fleets in the West and both the German and British Navies in the West, America would have been screwed.


Damn, there we go agreeing again


well, we would have gone down swinging. Thats all I can say.

You don't understand the japanese, they HATED being dependant on anyone for anything. It was big pride thing for them. And it wasn't just oil it was american scrap metal as well.

They were going to go for teh Dutch East Indies Regardless. They needed the Rubber and Oil. Plus they still would have been fighting in China.

Well of course they'll go after the Dutch and French possessions in the area, but they would not be above trading for oil

Well of course they'll go after the Dutch and French possessions in the area, but they would not be above trading for oil


Learn more history, and i'm not talking about the Stephen Ambrose stuff. I mean actually read up on their culture. And you'll understand that Japanese pride and lack of resources would have forced a conflict eventually.


And also, they were receiving a LOT of oil from the United States, As was Britain.

Hmmm, Hitler would've been happy. That was sort of the idea for some time in the Nazi top ranks - that Britain would join Germany against the evils of Bolchevism.

And the intention of a large portion of the British ruling class, too, and perhaps of Neville Chamberlain at Munich.

So in that case, I don't think the US could have survived it either - with a BEF, Canadian and German troops attacking from the North, Japanese fleets in the West and both the German and British Navies in the West, America would have been screwed.
I agreed with you up until here. Remember, there was a lot of pro-Nazi sentiment in the US and there has always been an element of cynicism (see Cold War) on whom we leap into bed with. I'm pretty sure that, were the British and Canadians to have joined Hitler, the US probably would have just gone along for the party.

Oh boy! Theoretical history! Maybe I'll have some ice cream. mmmm
No, the British Fascist Party will have had stamped out all bovines as an inferior race by 1952. The cow genocide would be completed in order to prevent any more cow-blood entering the master race and polluting it. Damn Welsh can't keep their hands to themselves.

And the intention of a large portion of the British ruling class, too, and perhaps of Neville Chamberlain at Munich.
I think you're being a little harsh on Chamberlain.

But it is true that the USSR wasn't the most popular country around the world.

I agreed with you up until here. Remember, there was a lot of pro-Nazi sentiment in the US and there has always been an element of cynicism (see Cold War) on whom we leap into bed with. I'm pretty sure that, were the British and Canadians to have joined Hitler, the US probably would have just gone along for the party.
I had a similar thought in my mind, but I wasn't sure whether it would hold, considering the US-Japanese tensions that I assume would be there in any case.
Would the US really have just rolled over and given the Japanese what they wanted, or accepted a compromise dictated to it by the Allies?

Well, it's getting very hypothetical, I suppose.

I'm pretty sure that, were the British and Canadians to have joined Hitler, the US probably would have just gone along for the party.

No, they would have gone against the Japanese, and perhaps with the Soviets, for the sake of their economic interests in Asia. And they wouldn't have lost to the Axis, either, at least not easily; Canada would have been crushed early on, with the British and Germans occupied with smashing the Soviets, and the US proved in real history that it could contest the Japanese at sea. Probably the war would have ended in a truce with the US dominating East Asia and the Anglo-German alliance controlling Europe.

No, they would have gone against the Japanese, and perhaps with the Soviets, for the sake of their economic interests in Asia. And they wouldn't have lost to the Axis, either, at least not easily; Canada would have been crushed early on...
With what army? The US didn't have much then, and I suppose it depends on the details, but Operation Barbarossa with British backing could have won it in late 1941.

With Pearl Harbour and a the US Atlantic Fleet having to deal with both the Royal Navy and the German Navy, I'm not sure whether the resources would have been around to also start an offensive against Canada large enough to defeat them.

I think you're being a little harsh on Chamberlain.

But it is true that the USSR wasn't the most popular country around the world.

What else did he want? I don't buy "appeasement," it makes no sense; nations don't behave that way, not if they have power on their side. If Britain had seen Germany as a threat to it it would have been hostile to Hitler from the start. It ignored German expansion for the same reason it ignored the Spanish Civil War; it meant that the Soviets (and the radical left, which was a real power) would be crushed mercilessly, or so they hoped. It was this hostility that made the Soviets abandon their hard-line anti-Fascist stance, telling the Communist parties to abandon the Popular Front and agreeing to Molotov-Ribbentroff. Hitler, of course, brilliantly double-crossed both sides. He might have won if he had dealt with Britain (and thus the US) before invading the Soviet Union.

I had a similar thought in my mind, but I wasn't sure whether it would hold, considering the US-Japanese tensions that I assume would be there in any case.
While not an expert, I find it hard to believe that the US and Japan were any fonder of each other than the US and the USSR. It was really a matter of survival that forced the real alliance, and a US that was confronted with a unified Europe and a country full of fascists in their backyard would be in very poor shape.
Would the US really have just rolled over and given the Japanese what they wanted, or accepted a compromise dictated to it by the Allies?
Probably. A series of islands and some finances tied up overseas would be no where near as important as the protection of the mainland. The US would probably just fall back to Plan C, fund guerilla groups, train terrorists and deny all involvement in the matters when they are found out.

No, they would have gone against the Japanese, and perhaps with the Soviets, for the sake of their economic interests in Asia. And they wouldn't have lost to the Axis, either, at least not easily; Canada would have been crushed early on, with the British and Germans occupied with smashing the Soviets, and the US proved in real history that it could contest the Japanese at sea. Probably the war would have ended in a truce with the US dominating East Asia and the Anglo-German alliance controlling Europe.
Operation Barbarossa came pretty damn close, and that was with Hitler waging a two-fronted war. If he hadn't had the Brits to worry about, he would have had more resources to devote to the Eastern front (and would never have had the disastorous Battle of Britain or the V1/2 rocket campaigns to keep up) and might have been able to deliver the killing blow.
Further, the Japanese Navy would have British assistance coming from the other direction. With a Canadian land war to the North, and British/Japanese naval engagements going on to the west and east, the US would be hard-pressed to escape the Western hemisphere.

With what army? The US didn't have much then, and I suppose it depends on the details, but Operation Barbarossa with British backing could have won it in late 1941.

And how quickly could they have brought sufficient forces to Canada? Roosevelt wasn't stupid; the US had begun a military build-up before Pearl Harbor in the real war, and in the event of a German-British annihilation of the Soviets, not to mention a Fascist ally on the US border, he would definitely have accelerated that, if not outright intervened beforehand.

A cross-Atlantic invasion of the US would have been next to impossible to pull off.

A cross-Atlantic invasion of the US would have been next to impossible to pull off.
Maybe at first, but a containing action could have been managed to effectively neutralize the US until after the Axis had gotten its house in order and was ready to devote sufficient resources to that theatre of action.

A cross-Atlantic invasion of the US would have been next to impossible to pull off.
Well, first the US would have had to defeat a Canada. A fascist Canada is not a pushover, especially if it's cold. So chances are that an Axis bridgehead could be held long enough for significant German and British forces to land and then go on the counteroffensive.
Worked in Korea as well.

And as was said, unless the US just decided to completely give Naval Superiority (and thus control of the coastlines - too long to be effectively guarded) to the Axis, they would have had to divert significant resources to that.

Maybe at first, but a containing action could have been managed to effectively neutralize the US until after the Axis had gotten its house in order and was ready to devote sufficient resources to that theatre of action.

So I guess it ultimately comes down to the US capability to use its industrial capabilities to its advantage, and to the Axis capability to keep from overextending themselves while projecting force across a good portion of the world.

If Germany and Britain had indeed crushed the Soviets in 1941, and did successfully manage to mobilize themselves against the US, it's probably true that the US would have failed to defeat Japan. But I think they may well have been able to force a stalemate, simply through use of their naval power.

Well, first the US would have had to defeat a Canada. A fascist Canada is not a pushover, especially if it's cold. So chances are that an Axis bridgehead could be held long enough for significant German and British forces to land and then go the counteroffensive.
Worked in Korea as well.

Maybe. But the Canadian population is concentrated pretty close to the border; it isn't equivalent to Russia, where the Nazis had to endure the winter in order to take strategic locations. The US would have taken southern Canada, and thus the bulk of its industrial capabilities, pretty easily, and the difficulty of supplying and reinforcing an Axis army in northern Canada would have been extreme. The US in Korea had Japan, so the situation there was different.

Maybe...
Well, fair enough.

But even in such a case, the Axis Fleets would still have ruled the seas, and given Germany all the time in the world to develop bombers capable of the distance, ICBMs and maybe nuclear weapons.

And there is still the thing about an invasion of Alaska. It might be cold, but it's the easiest place to get in if the Axis was ever driven out.