NationStates Jolt Archive


Illegal immigration statistics

PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 21:19
There are currently between 11.5 and 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. 60% have entered the US in the last 10 years and 40% in the last five. Illegal immigrants account for 1 in 3 children born in the U.S. 56% of all illegal immigrants are Mexican. 22% are from other countries in Latin America. 78% of all illegal immigrants enter the U.S. through the Mexican border. 36% of all insulation installers are illegal immigrants. 29% of all roofers and drywallers are illegal immigrants. 27% of all butchers and food processing workers are ilolgeal immigrants.
1 in 10 residents of the City of Los Angeles is an illegal immigrant.
1 in 20 employed people in America is an illegal immigrant.
1.7 in ten people employed in janatorial or domestic services is an illegal immigrant.
1.4 in ten people employed in construstion is an illegal immigrant.
1.2 in ten people employed in food preparation is an illegal immigrant.

Will Americans do domestic jobs? Will Americans do construction jobs? Will Americans do kitchen jobs? Will Americans install insulation? Will they install drywall? Will they do roofing jobs? Sam from the Brady Bunch was a butcher.

Statistics are from the Pew Hispanic Center. (http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=61) These estimates are considered conservative by the INS which estimates there are more like 20 million in the US, but we'll go with the Pew numbers since they are a very widely trusted organization.
Grave_n_idle
08-03-2006, 21:28
There are currently between 11.5 and 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. 60% have entered the US in the last 10 years and 40% in the last five. Illegal immigrants account for 1 in 3 children born in the U.S. 56% of all illegal immigrants are Mexican. 22% are from other countries in Latin America. 78% of all illegal immigrants enter the U.S. through the Mexican border. 36% of all insulation installers are illegal immigrants. 29% of all roofers and drywallers are illegal immigrants. 27% of all butchers and food processing workers are ilolgeal immigrants.
1 in 10 residents of the City of Los Angeles is an illegal immigrant.
1 in 20 employed people in America is an illegal immigrant.
1.7 in ten people employed in janatorial or domestic services is an illegal immigrant.
1.4 in ten people employed in construstion is an illegal immigrant.
1.2 in ten people employed in food preparation is an illegal immigrant.

Will Americans do domestic jobs? Will Americans do construction jobs? Will Americans do kitchen jobs? Will Americans install insulation? Will they install drywall? Will they do roofing jobs? Sam from the Brady Bunch was a butcher.

Statistics are from the Pew Hispanic Center. (http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=61) These estimates are considered conservative by the INS which estimates there are more like 20 million in the US, but we'll go with the Pew numbers since they are a very widely trusted organization.

I'm not convinced.... Only 10 million people are illegal immigrants (less than 3% of the population)... yet the same source claims that they 'account for' 33% of all births?
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 21:32
Here's from their website.

The Mission of the Pew Hispanic Center

Chronicling Latinos' diverse experiences in a changing America

Illuminating Hispanic Lives

Founded in 2001, the Pew Hispanic Center is a nonpartisan research organization supported by The Pew Charitable Trusts. Its mission is to improve understanding of the U.S. Hispanic population and to chronicle Latinos' growing impact on the entire nation. The Center does not advocate for or take positions on policy issues. It is a project of the Pew Research Center, a nonpartisan "fact tank" in Washington, DC that provides information on the issues, attitudes and trends shaping America and the world.

Look them up. You will find that the Pew Charitable Trust (http://www.pewtrusts.com/) is a very widely respected and trusted organization.
Santa Barbara
08-03-2006, 21:34
I'm not convinced.... Only 10 million people are illegal immigrants (less than 3% of the population)... yet the same source claims that they 'account for' 33% of all births?

Hmm...

Here's from their website.


Look them up. You will find that the Pew Charitable Trust is a very widely respected and trusted organization.

That doesn't even address the question. If it is, it's just an appeal to authority.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 21:35
I missquoted the report in the birth catagory. It's one third of all foreign babies born in the US are born to illegal immigrants. The rest are born to either legal immigrants or naturalized citizens.

http://pewhispanic.org/files/execsum/61.pdf
Just realized something important. If a couple comes to the US and has a baby, that's a baby born to an illegal immigrant. Once they have that "anchor baby" they become legal immigrants by US law. Their next baby is now a baby of legal immigrants.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 21:37
Hmm...



That doesn't even address the question. If it is, it's just an appeal to authority.
Not sure what that means. I posted stats from a report and then posted the authors web page so you can read about them yourself.

By the way I understand appeal to authority as a logical fallacy, but this doesn't apply. It's their stats and I was letting you research who they are for yourself.
Sumamba Buwhan
08-03-2006, 21:49
Wow those are some promising numbers but I am still disappointed that there isn't a greater number of illegals here. I won't be happy until white people are the minority and rarely if ever hold office in teh govt.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 21:50
Wow those are some promising numbers but I am still disappointed that there isn't a greater number of illegals here. I won't be happy until white people are the minority and rarely if ever hold office in teh govt.
Thank you for your honesty.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 21:52
Wow those are some promising numbers but I am still disappointed that there isn't a greater number of illegals here. I won't be happy until white people are the minority and rarely if ever hold office in teh govt.
Oh, it should also be noted that the people suffering most from the loss of jobs are inner city blacks. After decades of improvement the unemplyment numbers in the innercity are on the rise again as they lose construction and janatorial jobs to illegal immigrants.
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 21:58
There are currently between 11.5 and 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. 60% have entered the US in the last 10 years and 40% in the last five. Illegal immigrants account for 1 in 3 children born in the U.S. 56% of all illegal immigrants are Mexican. 22% are from other countries in Latin America. 78% of all illegal immigrants enter the U.S. through the Mexican border. 36% of all insulation installers are illegal immigrants. 29% of all roofers and drywallers are illegal immigrants. 27% of all butchers and food processing workers are ilolgeal immigrants.
1 in 10 residents of the City of Los Angeles is an illegal immigrant.
1 in 20 employed people in America is an illegal immigrant.
1.7 in ten people employed in janatorial or domestic services is an illegal immigrant.
1.4 in ten people employed in construstion is an illegal immigrant.
1.2 in ten people employed in food preparation is an illegal immigrant.

Will Americans do domestic jobs? Will Americans do construction jobs? Will Americans do kitchen jobs? Will Americans install insulation? Will they install drywall? Will they do roofing jobs? Sam from the Brady Bunch was a butcher.

Statistics are from the Pew Hispanic Center. (http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=61) These estimates are considered conservative by the INS which estimates there are more like 20 million in the US, but we'll go with the Pew numbers since they are a very widely trusted organization.

This is coming from an American who's worked in food service and construction, and who's scrubbed some toilets in the past. Yes, we will do those jobs. We just want a fair wage. Illegals don't really demand fair wages because minimum wage in the US is a decent ammount of money in Mexico.
Sumamba Buwhan
08-03-2006, 21:59
Thank you for your honesty.


Just telling you what I thought you wanted to hear :D
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 22:04
Just telling you what I thought you wanted to hear :D
No. What I wanted to hear is an answer to this:

Will Americans do domestic jobs? Will Americans do construction jobs? Will Americans do kitchen jobs? Will Americans install insulation? Will they install drywall? Will they do roofing jobs? Sam from the Brady Bunch was a butcher.
Sumamba Buwhan
08-03-2006, 22:11
No. What I wanted to hear is an answer to this:

Will Americans do domestic jobs? They will if the pay is right.

Will Americans do construction jobs? They certainly will because it pays so well... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Will Americans do kitchen jobs? For the right money. I spent many years as a cook.

Will Americans install insulation? For the right money... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Will they install drywall? For the right money... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Will they do roofing jobs? For the right money... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Sam from the Brady Bunch was a butcher. - Irrelevant - no wonder you are so worried about immigration, you don't want the perfect 1960's brady bunch dream to be corrupted by people with darker skin!
Iztatepopotla
08-03-2006, 22:19
US citizens will do all those jobs, but will demand much more money to do them. Illegal immigrants can't really demand so they'll take what they can get, even below minimum wage, thus employers in those areas prefer them. This allows those employers to have a better profit margin, in some cases even a profit.
Achtung 45
08-03-2006, 22:20
Will Americans do domestic jobs? They will if the pay is right.

Will Americans do construction jobs? They certainly will because it pays so well... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Will Americans do kitchen jobs? For the right money. I spent many years as a cook.

Will Americans install insulation? For the right money... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Will they install drywall? For the right money... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Will they do roofing jobs? For the right money... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Sam from the Brady Bunch was a butcher. - Irrelevant - no wonder you are so worried about immigration, you don't want the perfect 1960's brady bunch dream to be corrupted by people with darker skin!
Exactly. This is now the fourth time I've said this. Illegals do jobs that the majority of Americans wouldn't. A lot of local business here wouldn't be able to hire anyone if it weren't for the illegal immigrants. They provide good, honest work, and keep many small businesses running.
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 22:28
Exactly. This is now the fourth time I've said this. Illegals do jobs that the majority of Americans wouldn't. A lot of local business here wouldn't be able to hire anyone if it weren't for the illegal immigrants. They provide good, honest work, and keep many small businesses running.
I don't buy that. What did those businesses do before illegal immigrants flooded into the US? I know that here in NJ one used to be able to find landscaping, construction, and other blue-collar jobs occupied by black and white folks. Now it's virtually all Guatemalans and stuff.

It's not like there's less work to be done, Mc Mansions are popping up everywhere. Drive through central NJ and you're bound to pass new upscale suburban developments being built. You're bound to see numerous crews of Hispanic landscapers working on the newly built ones too. The work isn't scarce, the money is there, it's just more profitable for greedy business owners to hire illegals for $8 when they'd have to pay a black or white guy at least $12 per hour.
Santa Barbara
08-03-2006, 22:30
I don't buy that. What did those businesses do before illegal immigrants flooded into the US? I know that here in NJ one used to be able to find landscaping, construction, and other blue-collar jobs occupied by black and white folks. Now it's virtually all Guatemalans and stuff.

And they're all *illegal* Guatemalans? And you know that because...?
CSW
08-03-2006, 22:30
I don't buy that. What did those businesses do before illegal immigrants flooded into the US? I know that here in NJ one used to be able to find landscaping, construction, and other blue-collar jobs occupied by black and white folks. Now it's virtually all Guatemalans and stuff.

It's not like there's less work to be done, Mc Mansions are popping up everywhere. Drive through central NJ and you're bound to pass new upscale suburban developments being built. You're bound to see numerous crews of Hispanic landscapers working on the newly built ones too. The work isn't scarce, the money is there, it's just more profitable for greedy business owners to hire illegals for $8 when they'd have to pay a black or white guy at least $12 per hour.
It isn't as if that money goes away. The 4 dollars saved is poured into something else. Someone else gets a job. Your 'economic' argument is nothing more then a poorly veiled appeal to racism.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 22:32
Sam from the Brady Bunch was a butcher. - Irrelevant - no wonder you are so worried about immigration, you don't want the perfect 1960's brady bunch dream to be corrupted by people with darker skin!
That's complete bullshit. First, I grew up in a largely Hispanic neighborhood and all of my logtime friends are hispanic. Second, I'm sitting at work now with people of many different races, all American citizens, and like all of them and enjoy working with all of them.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 22:33
It isn't as if that money goes away. The 4 dollars saved is poured into something else. Someone else gets a job. Your 'economic' argument is nothing more then a poorly veiled appeal to racism.
Or the contractor gets that $3,500.00 TV rather than the $1,200.00 one.
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 22:34
And they're all *illegal* Guatemalans? And you know that because...?
You're right. I don't know, that's why I didn't say they're all illegal. I just know that the money that the companies are offering isn't enough to get anyone I know interested in working there. The low pay and the sheer number of Central Americans working those jobs makes me suspect that a large number are illegals.
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 22:37
It isn't as if that money goes away. The 4 dollars saved is poured into something else. Someone else gets a job. Your 'economic' argument is nothing more then a poorly veiled appeal to racism.
Racism, yeah, I'm a Kard Karrying Klansman.

No, it's because I used to be unskilled labor. I know what it's like trying to make ends meet doing grunt work. I've busted my ass in the hot sun, wading in mud to build in-ground swimming pools. I've made alot of friends who are or were also in those blue-collar fields. I know people trying to raise families or pay child support and it's damn near impossible if they have to get by on such work because there are too many people willing to do it cheaper.
CSW
08-03-2006, 22:37
Racism, yeah, I'm a Kard Karrying Klansman.

No, it's because I used to be unskilled labor. I know what it's like trying to make ends meet doing grunt work. I've busted my ass in the hot sun, wading in mud to build in-ground swimming pools. I've made alot of friends who are or were also in those blue-collar fields. I know people trying to raise families or pay child support and it's damn near impossible if they have to get by on such work because there are too many people willing to do it cheaper.
That's capitalism for you. Isn't it wonderful?
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 22:37
It isn't as if that money goes away. The 4 dollars saved is poured into something else. Someone else gets a job. Your 'economic' argument is nothing more then a poorly veiled appeal to racism.
Yeah, a worker in a Sony plant in Japan who makes the big screen plasma TV for the guy who owns the landscaping company.
Iztatepopotla
08-03-2006, 22:39
I know people trying to raise families or pay child support and it's damn near impossible if they have to get by on such work because there are too many people willing to do it cheaper.
Should send the kids to Mexico. Much cheaper to sustain them there.
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 22:39
That's capitalism for you. Isn't it wonderful?
I'm in favor of capitalism. As long as it's regulated to some extent. It seems an obvious regulation would be for the government for the people, of the people and by the people to make sure that the people who elect them get the jobs.
CSW
08-03-2006, 22:40
Yeah, a worker in a Sony plant in Japan who makes the big screen plasma TV for the guy who owns the landscaping company.
I'll say it once more. That's capitalism. Or are you saying that the worker in the sony plant doesn't deserve a wage?
CSW
08-03-2006, 22:41
I'm in favor of capitalism. As long as it's regulated to some extent. It seems an obvious regulation would be for the government for the people, of the people and by the people to make sure that the people who elect them get the jobs.
They have jobs. There is a minimum wage. Complaining that Mexicans are stealing your job isn't a legitimate excuse. Get a college (or vocational) degree.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 22:42
Will Americans do domestic jobs? They will if the pay is right.

Will Americans do construction jobs? They certainly will because it pays so well... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Will Americans do kitchen jobs? For the right money. I spent many years as a cook.

Will Americans install insulation? For the right money... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Will they install drywall? For the right money... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Will they do roofing jobs? For the right money... although many contractors will get illegal immigrants to work for them for much less money and not have to worry about insurance or medical for them.

Sam from the Brady Bunch was a butcher. - Irrelevant - no wonder you are so worried about immigration, you don't want the perfect 1960's brady bunch dream to be corrupted by people with darker skin!
can I ask you a question and get a direct answer? I posted some statistics and asked a question about labor in America and how it relates to illegal immigration and you called me a racist. Why did you need to resort to that? You have proven yourself to be racist, you obviously hate white people, but I have said nothing racist. I have only raised concerns about the effect that unchecked illegal immigration is having on the job market in the US and pointed specifically at the effect it is having on employment in inner city black communities. I'm a video technician and networking engineer so I'm not really afraid of losing my job to an illegal alien, more I am concerned about the crushing effect it is having on the middle class in America. You seem more concerned about the racial aspect of it, yet you accuse me of being the racist. Why?
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 22:45
I'll say it once more. That's capitalism. Or are you saying that the worker in the sony plant doesn't deserve a wage?
I'm saying that from my point of view as an American he deserves one less than my neighbor does. I fully expect him to feel his countrymen deserve the money more than mine.
CSW
08-03-2006, 22:46
I'm saying that from my point of view as an American he deserves one less than my neighbor does.
So you mandate that someone must spend money on American products rather then spending money as he sees fit? Bit restrictive, don't you think?
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 22:46
They have jobs. There is a minimum wage. Complaining that Mexicans are stealing your job isn't a legitimate excuse. Get a college (or vocational) degree.
Yes! Everyone can be a computer programmer! Oh, wait, those are Indian jobs.
Sumamba Buwhan
08-03-2006, 22:46
can I ask you a question and get a direct answer? I posted some statistics and asked a question about labor in America and how it relates to illegal immigration and you called me a racist. Why did you need to resort to that? You have proven yourself to be racist, you obviously hate white people, but I have said nothing racist. I have only raised concerns about the effect that unchecked illegal immigration is having on the job market in the US and pointed specifically at the effect it is having on employment in inner city black communities. I'm a video technician and networking engineer so I'm not really afraid of losing my job to an illegal alien, more I am concerned about the crushing effect it is having on the middle class in America. You seem more concerned about the racial aspect of it, yet you accuse me of being the racist. Why?


Sorry I was just having fun with you. It was hard to take you seriously with the Sam the butcher comment as if that is some sort of fact to prove a case about where USians would or wouldnt work, so I took that and made it a joke about you being racist. I never actually believed you were racist. Please don't take my posts so seriously. Everyone else has learned to ignore me.
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 22:47
So you mandate that someone must spend money on American products rather then spending money as he sees fit? Bit restrictive, don't you think?
Restrictions are sometimes a good thing.
CSW
08-03-2006, 22:48
Restrictions are sometimes a good thing.
Why? You do realize that you're only hurting the US with such a drastic ban on immigration and outward moving goods. I thought we learned from the Great Depression that tariffs only hurt countries.


It is a well known fact that immigration is one of the greatest economic boons a country can have. All the more so because of the aging country that we now have.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 22:50
They have jobs. There is a minimum wage. Complaining that Mexicans are stealing your job isn't a legitimate excuse. Get a college (or vocational) degree.
You and George Bush would get along just fine. You're in great company. The corporations don't give a shit about America anymore, they just want to make a buck by driving down the wages of unskilled workers. To them America is just a market like any other. They want to create a permanent underclass in America that are basically defacto indentured servants. They get to stay as long as they are employed. When the boss gets pissed he gets to have them deported by firing them. Capitalism is great, but not when its unregulated. The earliest part of the last century was characterized by the American worker fighting for his share of the American dream. They were able to achieve that. Now the corporations got their man in and you people want to reverse all that progress. Black Americans made so much progress since the 60s. Not just civil righst progress, but economic progress. Now that progress is threatened by the unchecked flow of cheap labor into traditionally black jobs by illegal immigrants. Well, hopefully we'll vote your man out of teh White House in the next election and get someone who will stand up for the American worker, whatever his race.
CSW
08-03-2006, 22:51
You and George Bush would get along just fine. You're in great company. The corporations don't give a shit about America anymore, they just want to make a buck by driving down the wages of unskilled workers. To them America is just a market like any other. They want to create a permanent underclass in America that are basically defacto indentured servants. They get to stay as long as they are employed. When the boss gets pissed he gets to have them deported by firing them. Capitalism is great, but not when its unregulated. The earliest part of the last century was characterized by the American worker fighting for his share of the American dream. They were able to achieve that. Now the corporations got their man in and you people want to reverse all that progress. Black Americans made so much progress since the 60s. Not just civil righst progress, but economic progress. Now that progress is threatened by the unchecked flow of cheap labor into traditionally black jobs by illegal immigrants. Well, hopefully we'll vote your man out of teh White House in the next election and get someone who will stand up for the American worker, whatever his race.
Oh dear. This is a first. I've been called a republican.

And you want to create a perminant underclass of the third world. I'd rather help out them then help another american gain 40 pounds.
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 22:53
Why? You do realize that you're only hurting the US with such a drastic ban on immigration and outward moving goods. I thought we learned from the Great Depression that tariffs only hurt countries.


It is a well known fact that immigration is one of the greatest economic boons a country can have. All the more so because of the aging country that we now have.
1) Since we're running a massive trade deficit some controls on trade can help slow the bleeding until our economy picks up. We don't really export much anymore. Our companies won't be able to invest the money into better manufacturing practices and R&D unless the playing field is evened out a bit.

2) Controlled immigration is fine. Totally open borders and a flood of immigration only serve to push the poor deeper into poverty and shrink the middle class.
Sinuhue
08-03-2006, 22:54
Wow those are some promising numbers but I am still disappointed that there isn't a greater number of illegals here. I won't be happy until white people are the minority and rarely if ever hold office in teh govt.
You just say that because you like dark meat. And you'll be a minority, and considered 'exotic', and likely get even more awesome threeway sex than you do now!
CSW
08-03-2006, 22:56
1) Since we're running a massive trade deficit some controls on trade can help slow the bleeding until our economy picks up. We don't really export much anymore. Our companies won't be able to invest the money into better manufacturing practices and R&D unless the playing field is evened out a bit.

2) Controlled immigration is fine. Totally open borders and a flood of immigration only serve to push the poor deeper into poverty and shrink the middle class.
1.) What bleeding? Are you kidding me? You start throwing tariffs down, and all hell breaks loose. You want to raise prices for consumers and force them to cut back on spending, and you expect this to help the country? Please. Step out from the 1920's and into the 2000's.

2.) Prove it. Please show that the immigration of the 1800's drove more people into poverty and shrank the middle class, contrary to the massive boom of the middle class during that time period. Even during the 1950's guest worker program, with massive mexican immigration from the south, the middle class became stronger then ever. Your implication that immigration destroys the middle class beggars belief.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 22:58
Why? You do realize that you're only hurting the US with such a drastic ban on immigration and outward moving goods. I thought we learned from the Great Depression that tariffs only hurt countries.


It is a well known fact that immigration is one of the greatest economic boons a country can have. All the more so because of the aging country that we now have.
Then how about we agree to do this. Let's get control of the border and other points of entry and lock down illegal immigration as much as possible. Lets enforce existing laws and fine or otherwise punish people who hire illegal immigrants in a way taht makes them not want to do it anymore. If there is a labor shortage left then we can turn to lawful immigration to fill that gap, but only after existing laws have been enforced. Fair enough? That way the lower paying blue collar jobs can be filled by American citizens who will be paying taxes to support the services, such as public education, that they use. We will be able to maintain a middle class in America and impoverished groups including inner city blacks and legally immigrated Hispanics will have an opportunity to move into the American middle class by getting better wages. They will be able to continue the success of their families because they will be able to support better education and health care for the children. If there are jobs left over, and I'm sure there will be, we can farm them out to immigrants who can work here and eventually become naturalized.
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 22:58
1.) What bleeding? Are you kidding me? You start throwing tariffs down, and all hell breaks loose. You want to raise prices for consumers and force them to cut back on spending, and you expect this to help the country? Please. Step out from the 1920's and into the 2000's.

2.) Prove it. Please show that the immigration of the 1800's drove more people into poverty and shrank the middle class, contrary to the massive boom of the middle class during that time period.
1) The Nation’s international deficit in goods and services increased to $725.8 billion in 2005 from $617.6 billion in 2004. http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html

Cutting back on spending might be just what the US needs. Ever take a look at our savings rate? It's nonexistent.

2) Please, you expect the effects of immigration during a time when the nation was virtually empty and factories were just starting to be built to be the same as it is now?
Sumamba Buwhan
08-03-2006, 23:00
You just say that because you like dark meat. And you'll be a minority, and considered 'exotic', and likely get even more awesome threeway sex than you do now!


hehe
you figured me out. Plus with affirmative action I'll be able to get jobs easier than all those brownies who are only trying to keep a whitey down.

so dark meat, when are you and I "doing lunch"? :p
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 23:02
Oh dear. This is a first. I've been called a republican.

And you want to create a perminant underclass of the third world. I'd rather help out them then help another american gain 40 pounds.
As long as you're honest. To be clear, without the sarcasm, you are saying that you do not mind supporting illegal immigration at the expense of the American poor and working class and to the great enrichment of the large, multinational corporations. If that's your stance, fine. I disagree. I worry about the American poor and working class. AS for the underclass in the third world, I suggest to them that they get rid of their corupt politicians and foment a revolution. Then should be working to better their countries.
Iztatepopotla
08-03-2006, 23:02
1) Since we're running a massive trade deficit some controls on trade can help slow the bleeding until our economy picks up. We don't really export much anymore. Our companies won't be able to invest the money into better manufacturing practices and R&D unless the playing field is evened out a bit.

The playing field is more even! That's why you can't export so much now. Other countries have become much more competitive, not because they implemented tariffs but becaouse they opened their markets. Countries are much better positioned now to use their competitive advantages and the US finds it much harder to compite in that market.

That's capitalism, that's free market. And it would be ironic that the country that has spent the best part of a century trying to open markets would now try to close them because they find it too hard now.
Sinuhue
08-03-2006, 23:03
hehe
you figured me out. Plus with affirmative action I'll be able to get jobs easier than all those brownies who are only trying to keep a whitey down.

so dark meat, when are you and I "doing lunch"? :p
Don't worry, I still have a hankering to visit the city of sin...and do some serious sinning...
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 23:06
The playing field is more even! That's why you can't export so much now. Other countries have become much more competitive, not because they implemented tariffs but becaouse they opened their markets. Countries are much better positioned now to use their competitive advantages and the US finds it much harder to compite in that market.

That's capitalism, that's free market. And it would be ironic that the country that has spent the best part of a century trying to open markets would now try to close them because they find it too hard now.
Not it's not. More than half of our trade deficit is with China and they artificially peg their currency low to the dollar. That's why shit's so cheap at Walmart.
Iztatepopotla
08-03-2006, 23:10
Not it's not. More than half of our trade deficit is with China and they artificially peg their currency low to the dollar. That's why shit's so cheap at Walmart.
Yup. China would be an exception to the evenness, being a mixed economy and all, but that can be fixed with compensatory tariffs on Chinese products, and only Chinese products.

However, you also have a trade deficit (although not as pronounced) with most European countries, Canada, and Mexico, all of which have pretty much the same liberalized economies.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 23:13
Yup. China would be an exception to the evenness, being a mixed economy and all, but that can be fixed with compensatory tariffs on Chinese products, and only Chinese products.

However, you also have a trade deficit (although not as pronounced) with most European countries, Canada, and Mexico, all of which have pretty much the same liberalized economies.
Not sure about the European countries. I've not seen that. The trade deficit with Mexico and Canada are because of oil. They are the number one and number two suppliers to the US. Take oil out of the equation and there's no deficit there.
CSW
08-03-2006, 23:13
1) http://www.census.gov/indicator/www/ustrade.html

Cutting back on spending might be just what the US needs. Ever take a look at our savings rate? It's nonexistent.

You cut back on spending, you throw this economy into a recession. Simple.

2) Please, you expect the effects of immigration during a time when the nation was virtually empty and factories were just starting to be built to be the same as it is now?
Ever taken a look at the population densities of the US relative to other industrialized nations? We've got tons more space to grow.
CSW
08-03-2006, 23:15
As long as you're honest. To be clear, without the sarcasm, you are saying that you do not mind supporting illegal immigration at the expense of the American poor and working class and to the great enrichment of the large, multinational corporations. If that's your stance, fine. I disagree. I worry about the American poor and working class. AS for the underclass in the third world, I suggest to them that they get rid of their corupt politicians and foment a revolution. Then should be working to better their countries.
Poor and working class? Relative to what? A person in the backcountry on welfare makes more money then a doctor in many countries.

Helps big multinational corporations? By definition, immigration doesn't help big multinational corporations. It helps the entire country.
Sumamba Buwhan
08-03-2006, 23:16
Don't worry, I still have a hankering to visit the city of sin...and do some serious sinning...


You can immigrate into my pants anyday. :D :fluffle:
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 23:20
You cut back on spending, you throw this economy into a recession. Simple.

Ever taken a look at the population densities of the US relative to other industrialized nations? We've got tons more space to grow.
1) That's why regulation of capitalism needs to be delicately managed. Properly managed you smooth out the waves and troughs. Outsourcing can still happen, but more slowly. This allows the workforce to aclimate to the new conditions. Unfortunately, the very wealthy couldn't give a rat's ass about a poor motherfucker in the ghetto or the trailer park looking for a job. They want maximum profits now and fuck the people and the nation.

3) Sure, our cities aren't as crowded as Karachi and Cairo. But what are all those people going to do? They'll have unemployment rates similar to Cairo and Karachi if you allow unrestricted immigration. In the 1800s we were just starting to build factories and our manufacturing economy was heating up. Now we're not creating new jobs very fast. Your ideas will remake the US into a third world country.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 23:20
You cut back on spending, you throw this economy into a recession. Simple. That's bullshit. The zero savings rate is a phenomenon of the last five years. People were saving money in the 80s and 90s and the was no recession that can be pegged to savings. Both recessions during that period were set off by oil price spikes and both went away when oil settled back down.

Ever taken a look at the population densities of the US relative to other industrialized nations? We've got tons more space to grow.
You and George would get along great. Let's just mow it all down. Screw the great plains. Screw the forests of the Pacific Northwest. Screw teh deserts of the Pacific Southwest. Lets just drill them all for oil and gas and if we don't find any we'll build huge tenement slums se we can have armies of workers to moil and toil in fatories for rich people to make things for rich people and for the new consumer class in China. What are you gonna do in the next election? I doubt Cheney's gonna run and with McCain the most likely candidate for the Republicans you'll have to vote for him and he's not s pro business. In fact, he wants to have real lobbying reform so all teh huge corporations that are lobbying for open borders and amnesty wont have that kind of sway in congress anymore...
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 23:23
Poor and working class? Relative to what? A person in the backcountry on welfare makes more money then a doctor in many countries. Relative to other Americans. You know, the kind you see out your window standing in the food stamp lines. I know its hard to care about them, I mean as you said earlier, they shoulda gone to college.

Helps big multinational corporations? By definition, immigration doesn't help big multinational corporations. It helps the entire country.
The corporations are teh one's lobying for guest worker and amnesty programs. I now a lot of former drywall hangers and roofers that would disagree that they are helped by illegal immigration. But, like you said, they should just go to college.
CSW
08-03-2006, 23:24
1) That's why regulation of capitalism needs to be delicately managed. Properly managed you smooth out the waves and troughs. Outsourcing can still happen, but more slowly. This allows the workforce to aclimate to the new conditions. Unfortunately, the very wealthy couldn't give a rat's ass about a poor motherfucker in the ghetto or the trailer park looking for a job. They want maximum profits now and fuck the people and the nation.

1.) This isn't a question of smoothing out waves and troughs. To drag back down the BoT, you'd need massive tariffs, which besides killing off world trade, would also destroy our own economy as spending shock hits in. Quite frankly, the situtation is a lot more delicate then you think it is, and it isn't something that can be fixed by one day deciding to slap tariffs on Chinese goods, who are outcompeting US producers.


3) Sure, our cities aren't as crowded as Karachi and Cairo. But what are all those people going to do? They'll have unemployment rates similar to Cairo and Karachi if you allow unrestricted immigration. In the 1800s we were just starting to build factories and our manufacturing economy was heating up. Now we're not creating new jobs very fast. Your ideas will remake the US into a third world country.
We're ranked 143rd in world population density. The EU (first world, mind you), comes in at 66th. The UK (that slum) is 33rd. Japan is 18th, Belgium is 17th.
CSW
08-03-2006, 23:26
Relative to other Americans. You know, the kind you see out your window standing in the food stamp lines. I know its hard to care about them, I mean as you said earlier, they shoulda gone to college.
Food stamp lines? Oh, how lucky they are. How about those people who don't have food at all? How many of those are the crippled, the lame, those who can otherwise not work? How many working men have you seen in food stamp lines lately?


The corporations are teh one's lobying for guest worker and amnesty programs. I now a lot of former drywall hangers and roofers that would disagree that they are helped by illegal immigration. But, like you said, they should just go to college.
Yes, they should have. Either suck it up, and live with the competition, or go into another field. I have little sympathy for someone who refuses to work, and expects the government to not only support them (fine), but to exclude another from doing the job that they refuse to do.
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 23:27
1.) This isn't a question of smoothing out waves and troughs. To drag back down the BoT, you'd need massive tariffs, which besides killing off world trade, would also destroy our own economy as spending shock hits in. Quite frankly, the situtation is a lot more delicate then you think it is, and it isn't something that can be fixed by one day deciding to slap tariffs on Chinese goods, who are outcompeting US producers.


We're ranked 143rd in world population density. The EU (first world, mind you), comes in at 66th. The UK (that slum) is 33rd. Japan is 18th, Belgium is 17th.
1) So your answer is what, do nothing?

2) nice job avoiding the question of what all those immigrants are going to do for a living.
CSW
08-03-2006, 23:31
1) So your answer is what, do nothing?

It's fine how it is. It will fix itself, eventually.

2) nice job avoiding the question of what all those immigrants are going to do for a living.
Work. Like anyone else. By spending money they create ever more jobs, everyone wins, in the end. Will it be weird at the start? Most likely, but as the old saying about eggs goes... Again, it's a self correcting problem. Immigrants who are free to leave the country will stop coming and flow the other way naturally. Very few immigrants stay forever (see: Puerto Rico), most head back home. That's often overlooked in the grand scheme of things.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 23:36
Food stamp lines? Oh, how lucky they are. How about those people who don't have food at all? How many of those are the crippled, the lame, those who can otherwise not work? How many working men have you seen in food stamp lines lately? None. There are, however, a lot of former working people in those lines. As for the crippled and infirmed it's a good thing we still have some people paying taxes to support services for people who cannot work. Unfortunately, illegal aliens don't pay taxes. Maybe if we take those people out fo the foodstamp lines, force American employers to employ these people first then we can use the taxes they will pay to support these services with that money?


Yes, they should have. Either suck it up, and live with the competition, or go into another field.wait a minute, George? Is taht you?!?:p You really had me going!!!! :D I can't believe you have the time for this. Aren't you supposed to be touring New Orleans right now? :confused:


I have little sympathy for someone who refuses to work, and expects the government to not only support them (fine), but to exclude another from doing the job that they refuse to do.Yeah, too bad many employers will now no longer hire Ameruican workers at any price. That whole 8 hour work day and the unemployment insurance and all that. Maybe if we repeal the minmum wage laws, repeal the child labor laws, repeal any laws regarding benefits or hours and workdays we can level the playing field and the illgals will stop coming here because America wont be any better a place to live than Mexico. If we can just get the poor and working class here to live like they did at the turn of the twentieth century and erase the middle class...
Iztatepopotla
08-03-2006, 23:38
Not sure about the European countries. I've not seen that. The trade deficit with Mexico and Canada are because of oil. They are the number one and number two suppliers to the US. Take oil out of the equation and there's no deficit there.
Mexico's total oil exports (US and others) for a year are around US$25 billion. The deficit the US has with Mexico is around US$50 billion. Even if Mexico didn't sell a drop of oil to the US there would still be a trade deficit.
CSW
08-03-2006, 23:40
None. There are, however, a lot of former working people in those lines. As for the crippled and infirmed it's a good thing we still have some people paying taxes to support services for people who cannot work. Unfortunately, illegal aliens don't pay taxes. Maybe if we take those people out fo the foodstamp lines, force American employers to employ these people first then we can use the taxes they will pay to support these services with that money?


wait a minute, George? Is taht you?!?:p You really had me going!!!! :D I can't believe you have the time for this. Aren't you supposed to be touring New Orleans right now? :confused:


Yeah, too bad many employers will now no longer hire Ameruican workers at any price. That whole 8 hour work day and the unemployment insurance and all that. Maybe if we repeal the minmum wage laws, repeal the child labor laws, repeal any laws regarding benefits or hours and workdays we can level the playing field and the illgals will stop coming here because America wont be any better a place to live than Mexico. If we can just get the poor and working class here to live like they did at the turn of the twentieth century and erase the middle class...

Who says I want them to be illegal? I'm for completely legal immigration, no restrictions beyond a medical and background check. Fully subject to the laws and regulations of this great country. Get rid of both the problems of the capitalists oppressing the illegal worker and the government preventing people from moving about freely.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 23:40
Mexico's total oil exports (US and others) for a year are around US$25 billion. The deficit the US has with Mexico is around US$50 billion. Even if Mexico didn't sell a drop of oil to the US there would still be a trade deficit.
And twenty five billion is a drop in the bucket. By the way, how much of that is the hiring of illegal mexican labor in the US and the subsequent bleeding of American dollars into Mexico? In anycase, the point of this thread isn't trade deficits.
Iztatepopotla
08-03-2006, 23:43
Yeah, too bad many employers will now no longer hire Ameruican workers at any price. That whole 8 hour work day and the unemployment insurance and all that. Maybe if we repeal the minmum wage laws, repeal the child labor laws, repeal any laws regarding benefits or hours and workdays we can level the playing field and the illgals will stop coming here because America wont be any better a place to live than Mexico. If we can just get the poor and working class here to live like they did at the turn of the twentieth century and erase the middle class...
Mexico has 8 hours work days, in fact you have to pay salaries by the day, not hour. It has minimum wage laws, child labor laws, health benefits laws. About the only thing that Mexico doesn't have is unemployment insurance.

The problem with Mexico is that there are very few jobs.
Jocabia
08-03-2006, 23:46
There are currently between 11.5 and 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. 60% have entered the US in the last 10 years and 40% in the last five. Illegal immigrants account for 1 in 3 children born in the U.S. 56% of all illegal immigrants are Mexican. 22% are from other countries in Latin America. 78% of all illegal immigrants enter the U.S. through the Mexican border. 36% of all insulation installers are illegal immigrants. 29% of all roofers and drywallers are illegal immigrants. 27% of all butchers and food processing workers are ilolgeal immigrants.
1 in 10 residents of the City of Los Angeles is an illegal immigrant.
1 in 20 employed people in America is an illegal immigrant.
1.7 in ten people employed in janatorial or domestic services is an illegal immigrant.
1.4 in ten people employed in construstion is an illegal immigrant.
1.2 in ten people employed in food preparation is an illegal immigrant.

Will Americans do domestic jobs? Will Americans do construction jobs? Will Americans do kitchen jobs? Will Americans install insulation? Will they install drywall? Will they do roofing jobs? Sam from the Brady Bunch was a butcher.

Statistics are from the Pew Hispanic Center. (http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=61) These estimates are considered conservative by the INS which estimates there are more like 20 million in the US, but we'll go with the Pew numbers since they are a very widely trusted organization.

Generally, one doesn't just make a thread and put information in it, but they actually try to make a point. What's yours?
Drunk commies deleted
08-03-2006, 23:46
It's fine how it is. It will fix itself, eventually.

Work. Like anyone else. By spending money they create ever more jobs, everyone wins, in the end. Will it be weird at the start? Most likely, but as the old saying about eggs goes... Again, it's a self correcting problem. Immigrants who are free to leave the country will stop coming and flow the other way naturally. Very few immigrants stay forever (see: Puerto Rico), most head back home. That's often overlooked in the grand scheme of things.
When immigrants go back "home" they take their money with them. It's not like that cash is going to stay in the US economy. It gets sent home.

Creating jobs isn't simple. Creating good paying jobs is extremely hard. The new jobs being created are on average lower-paying than the jobs we lose.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 23:47
Who says I want them to be illegal? I'm for completely legal immigration, no restrictions beyond a medical and background check. Fully subject to the laws and regulations of this great country. Get rid of both the problems of the capitalists oppressing the illegal worker and the government preventing people from moving about freely.
Then we have absolutely no problem at all. I completely agree. Lets punish employers who employ illegal immigrants. They can hire all the legal immigrants they want, but they have to pay the same wages and the same taxes as American workers get. All immigrants should be subject to criminal and medical checks and then if there's a job for them they can have it. Whats wierd, is that if we actually enforced the laws we already have that's exactly the situation that would exist right now. You and I are in complete agreement.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 23:49
Mexico has 8 hours work days, in fact you have to pay salaries by the day, not hour. It has minimum wage laws, child labor laws, health benefits laws. About the only thing that Mexico doesn't have is unemployment insurance.

The problem with Mexico is that there are very few jobs.
okay, but what does that have to do with the fact that here in America an employer can hire an illegal to work a 16 hour day for the same price as an 8 hour day for an American? What does that have to do with the fact that an American employer can hire an illegal immigrant for less than minimum wage?
Iztatepopotla
08-03-2006, 23:50
And twenty five billion is a drop in the bucket. By the way, how much of that is the hiring of illegal mexican labor in the US and the subsequent bleeding of American dollars into Mexico? In anycase, the point of this thread isn't trade deficits.
About 17 billion. Oil sector deficit is about 10 billion. The rest, some 23 billion, is other goods and services.

No, the point started with illegal migration. This came in response to Drunk Commies assertion that the playing field is uneven and there has to be restrictions in trade.
Iztatepopotla
08-03-2006, 23:52
okay, but what does that have to do with the fact that here in America an employer can hire an illegal to work a 16 hour day for the same price as an 8 hour day for an American? What does that have to do with the fact that an American employer can hire an illegal immigrant for less than minimum wage?
That in an open economy you have to adjust your prices to what the market will bear. US workers are reticent to notice that. It's quite understandable as they don't want to lose economic ground, but at the same time makes the US less competitive against other nations which in turn take investment away from the US.

To survive US companies have to hire illegal immigrants that are willing to work for less, in that way they can compete better against foreign companies.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 23:54
Generally, one doesn't just make a thread and put information in it, but they actually try to make a point. What's yours?
Most other people figured it out pretty easily, but if you need me to spell it out for you I will.

People often claim that illegal immigrants only take jobs that Americans don't want. They also often fail to realize the actual number of jobs that are going to illegal immigrants. I posted those figures to point out that illegal immigrants are taking vast numbers of jobs that Americans can, will and want to do. In fact, they are taking jobs that were done by Americans until just the last decade. Then I posted this:
Will Americans do domestic jobs? Will Americans do construction jobs? Will Americans do kitchen jobs? Will Americans install insulation? Will they install drywall? Will they do roofing jobs? Sam from the Brady Bunch was a butcher....as a means of making my point more obvious. I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I was relying on people's mental agility to be able to understand my point.
Jocabia
08-03-2006, 23:57
No. What I wanted to hear is an answer to this:

I worked in restaurants all over the country. As most people will attest, many kitchen workers have brown skin. All of the places I've worked paid these workers over minimum wage. The jobs were basically unskilled labor (though it was common to make more money over time if you were good at your job). The occasional white guy would get hired but generally you could expect them to quit. So throughout my time in restaurants the kitchen was filled with brown-skinned people all happy to have jobs and get paid, many of whom didn't speak English. The result. The restaurant stayed in business and continued to employ the dozens of white college kids in the front of the house. One of the guys had been working in a kitchen in TGI Fridays for eight years after immigrating from Mexico. He was paid legally $8/hr and after eight years had bought himself several apartment buildings which he fixed up himself and was making a good deal of money, but he never quit the job that got him there.

You want to know why businesses are hiring immigrants. Look at yourself. Businesses will go for the best value. If you can't provide the necessary value, they will look elsewhere. We try to argue that janitorial positions deserve $20/hr and then complain that someone is willing to do it for $10. Don't be pissed at foreigners that many Americans have tried to force the market to pay above market value. It forces businesses to look to cheaper sources of labor and even risk prosecution in order to stay in business.
PsychoticDan
08-03-2006, 23:58
That in an open economy you have to adjust your prices to what the market will bear. US workers are reticent to notice that. It's quite understandable as they don't want to lose economic ground, but at the same time makes the US less competitive against other nations which in turn take investment away from the US.

To survive US companies have to hire illegal immigrants that are willing to work for less, in that way they can compete better against foreign companies.
Two points:
1. Most jobs that illegal aliens are taking are jobs that cater to the local economy. The only way to farm out roofing jobs is to allow illegal immigration.
2. Did this whole situation with balanced trade agreements just come out in the last five or ten years? We used to be competitive and have a reasonable standard of living...
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 00:04
*snip completely pointless post.
I have no problem with the color of their skin. That's the first refuge you open border people jump to. If they are against illegal immigration they are racist anti immigrant. I worked my way through college in restaurants, too. While I'm sure some of the cooks and busboys were illegal most of the Hispanic workers were legal immigrants. More power to them. I'm glad they are able to live here and I hope they are able to achieve their part of the American dream. Unfortunately many fo them may have a hard time finding jobs now because there are so many more illegal immigrants and enforcement is so much more lax since the Bush administration came to power. That's probably why there is so much growing opposition to illegal immigration in the hispanic community.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 00:05
Most other people figured it out pretty easily, but if you need me to spell it out for you I will.

People often claim that illegal immigrants only take jobs that Americans don't want. They also often fail to realize the actual number of jobs that are going to illegal immigrants. I posted those figures to point out that illegal immigrants are taking vast numbers of jobs that Americans can, will and want to do. In fact, they are taking jobs that were done by Americans until just the last decade. Then I posted this:
...as a means of making my point more obvious. I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I was relying on people's mental agility to be able to understand my point.

Actually, I don't NEED anything. You are REQUIRED to put your point in creating a thread.

At the country club I came up working at I promise you that there was no one rushing to do the jobs the illegal immigrants were doing as well or as cheaply as they were doing it. That's the facts. Don't like it. Work for less money. I have to prove every day that my company is getting more money out of me than I cost. When I work for clients I help them conduct studies so they can see the value of my work to justify my cost.

The average salary of a janitor is 25K a year including immigrants. Why would an unskilled job that any teenager can do require over two times minimum wage? It doesn't. Why should I have to pay someone $30/hr to dig a hole when I did it in high school for $5/hr? Why should I ever have to pay over market value for labor? The answer is easy. The unions in this country got too greedy and became to enamoured with power so they drove up salaries and then complained when companies either found other ways to work or they left the US. The job problem isn't that Americans can't find work, it's that they're too proud to take the jobs that are available.
Keruvalia
09-03-2006, 00:08
Cool ... lots of illegals. I like it.

Ever seen "A Day Without a Mexican"? Hilarious.
Sumamba Buwhan
09-03-2006, 00:09
Cool ... lots of illegals. I like it.

Ever seen "A Day Without a Mexican"? Hilarious.


Yes I did! Good movie!
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 00:17
I have no problem with the color of their skin. That's the first refuge you open border people jump to. If they are against illegal immigration they are racist anti immigrant. I worked my way through college in restaurants, too. While I'm sure some of the cooks and busboys were illegal most of the Hispanic workers were legal immigrants. More power to them. I'm glad they are able to live here and I hope they are able to achieve their part of the American dream. Unfortunately many fo them may have a hard time finding jobs now because there are so many more illegal immigrants and enforcement is so much more lax since the Bush administration came to power. That's probably why there is so much growing opposition to illegal immigration in the hispanic community.

There 7 Million unemployed people in the US last year. You can attach an additional 1.6 Million because there are people who claim to want employment but aren't really looking. If all of the illegal immigrants left do you think we'd have 100% employment. Nope. Unemployment usually follows the economy. It's not coincidence. Americans simply won't fill all of the jobs. EVER.

And I didn't assume you were a racist. I've read you're other statements and you have a problem with people brown skin and every who has seen your posts knows it.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 00:18
Actually, I don't NEED anything. You are REQUIRED to put your point in creating a thread. Everyone else was clear.

At the country club I came up working at I promise you that there was no one rushing to do the jobs the illegal immigrants were doing as well or as cheaply as they were doing it.1. Are you sure they were illegal? If it was over ten years ago I'm sure many of them were legal. Also, people don't tend to waste their time trying to find jobs that they know they cannot get. In inner city Los Angeles its getting that way for drywall hangers. Inner city black drywall hangers used to get $20.00 an hour just ten years ago. The inlux of cheap labor over the last decade has driven the wage down from $20.00 to $15 to $13 to no job at all at any price.


That's the facts. Don't like it. Work for less money. I have to prove every day that my company is getting more money out of me than I cost. When I work for clients I help them conduct studies so they can see the value of my work to justify my cost.

The average salary of a janitor is 25K a year including immigrants. Why would an unskilled job that any teenager can do require over two times minimum wage? It doesn't. Why should I have to pay someone $30/hr to dig a hole when I did it in high school for $5/hr? Why should I ever have to pay over market value for labor? The answer is easy. The unions in this country got too greedy and became to enamoured with power so they drove up salaries and then complained when companies either found other ways to work or they left the US. The job problem isn't that Americans can't find work, it's that they're too proud to take the jobs that are available.
First, no argument here about unions. In many jobs they have driven the costs to ridiculous levels. It is insulting that a highschool dropout can make six figures a year while I with my college degree have yet to hit those figures. Having said that, we have a vested interest in maintaining a strong working and middle class. If we keep allowing the influx of cheap labor we will destroy the consumer class that keeps the American economy strong. America's industrial and economic might was built when the working class was brought into the middle class with labor laws and the New Deal. This put money into the hands of American workers who bought bread and butter and TVs and cars. Before labor laws these people lived in tenement slums. This is not the kind of America I want to live in.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 00:23
There 7 Million unemployed people in the US last year. You can attach an additional 1.6 Million because there are people who claim to want employment but aren't really looking. If all of the illegal immigrants left do you think we'd have 100% employment. Nope. Unemployment usually follows the economy. It's not coincidence. Americans simply won't fill all of the jobs. EVER.
Of course not.
Then we have absolutely no problem at all. I completely agree. Lets punish employers who employ illegal immigrants. They can hire all the legal immigrants they want, but they have to pay the same wages and the same taxes as American workers get. All immigrants should be subject to criminal and medical checks and then if there's a job for them they can have it. Whats wierd, is that if we actually enforced the laws we already have that's exactly the situation that would exist right now. You and I are in complete agreement.

And I didn't assume you were a racist. I've read you're other statements and you have a problem with people brown skin and every who has seen your posts knows it.
Back that up. I grew up in an Hispanic neighborhood and all of my longtime friends are Hispanic. I'm engaged to an Iranian. I work with people of just about every race and like and enjoy working with all of them. You throw around that label because your argument is weak. You shoudl pay attention more to your signature.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 00:53
Everyone else was clear.

1. Are you sure they were illegal? If it was over ten years ago I'm sure many of them were legal. Also, people don't tend to waste their time trying to find jobs that they know they cannot get. In inner city Los Angeles its getting that way for drywall hangers. Inner city black drywall hangers used to get $20.00 an hour just ten years ago. The inlux of cheap labor over the last decade has driven the wage down from $20.00 to $15 to $13 to no job at all at any price.


I'm quite certain. At the time, I was fluent in Spanish. They typically got a free ride home from immigration. It wasn't a secret.

Why should a drywall hanger get $20/hr? My brother did it for less and was happy to do so. It's not really skilled labor. That's the problem. Americans don't want to learn any skills and then complain that they have no differentiation between themselves and people willing to do it for less. The demand for foreign labor is created by Americans. If we want the supply to go down we have to destroy the demand. It's quite simple. It's like the federal efforts to destroy the supply of drugs. Nothing we do destroys the supply because as long as the demand is there someone will always meet the demand.

EDIT: On average, drywall hangers still get around 20/hr.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos205.htm#earnings


First, no argument here about unions. In many jobs they have driven the costs to ridiculous levels. It is insulting that a highschool dropout can make six figures a year while I with my college degree have yet to hit those figures. Having said that, we have a vested interest in maintaining a strong working and middle class. If we keep allowing the influx of cheap labor we will destroy the consumer class that keeps the American economy strong. America's industrial and economic might was built when the working class was brought into the middle class with labor laws and the New Deal. This put money into the hands of American workers who bought bread and butter and TVs and cars. Before labor laws these people lived in tenement slums. This is not the kind of America I want to live in.

Then your argument is with unions, not with illegal immigrants. Also, you might note that this problem hasn't changed in 30 years. Checke the average wages over the last 30 years. It wasn't better under any president or any group.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 00:56
Of course not.



Back that up. I grew up in an Hispanic neighborhood and all of my longtime friends are Hispanic. I'm engaged to an Iranian. I work with people of just about every race and like and enjoy working with all of them. You throw around that label because your argument is weak. You shoudl pay attention more to your signature.

Yep. That's always proof, right there. "I can't dislike brown people because I have brown friends/family/significan others/employees/et al." I know. You don't dislike brown people. Just certain ones.

Yep, I'm very convinced. You see I never read the thread where DCD suggested we firebomb brown children and you said you agreed with him. I've never read your statements about muslims and arabs nor noticed the coincidentally similar skin color of Mexicans that you singled out in your rant about illegal immigrants. Yep. You're a big fan of brown people. Anybody could figure that out... provided they only listened to what you say when asked if you are racist and don't look at the concentration of your posts against brown people.
Achtung 45
09-03-2006, 00:57
I don't buy that. What did those businesses do before illegal immigrants flooded into the US? I know that here in NJ one used to be able to find landscaping, construction, and other blue-collar jobs occupied by black and white folks. Now it's virtually all Guatemalans and stuff.Well, here in southern Arizona, immigrants have been coming across the boarder as long as I can remember. It's not like illegal immigration is a new thing. Small landscaping businesses and those of the like, have started and have been able to stay afloat rather well, thanks to the improved supply of workers. Your situation may be different, but illegal immigrants from Mexico are vital to a lot of small businesses here as they've been coming here for a rather long time.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 02:28
I'm quite certain. At the time, I was fluent in Spanish. They typically got a free ride home from immigration. It wasn't a secret.

Why should a drywall hanger get $20/hr? My brother did it for less and was happy to do so. It's not really skilled labor. That's the problem. Americans don't want to learn any skills and then complain that they have no differentiation between themselves and people willing to do it for less. The demand for foreign labor is created by Americans. If we want the supply to go down we have to destroy the demand. It's quite simple. It's like the federal efforts to destroy the supply of drugs. Nothing we do destroys the supply because as long as the demand is there someone will always meet the demand.

EDIT: On average, drywall hangers still get around 20/hr.The gov't doesn't keep stats on what illegal aliens make for the job nor the number of them that are working in the profession. The fact that, according to Pew Research, almost 40% of drywallers are illegal now means that the wage information they have for drywallers isn't looking at the whole picture.




Then your argument is with unions, not with illegal immigrants. Also, you might note that this problem hasn't changed in 30 years. Checke the average wages over the last 30 years. It wasn't better under any president or any group.
No, its with illegal immigration and the fact that a flood of labor into domestic service jobs like drywalling has depressed the wages of those workers and the fact that because when you hire an illegal its all of fthe books means that even at the same wages they will not hire American laborers because it is worse to hire an American and pay illegal wages or have them work illegal hours than it is to hire an illegal. If you hire an illegal alien and pay him $10.00/hour and work him for 16 hours someone MIGHT fine you a little money. If you hire an American and do that you can be fined six, eveen seven figures and may be criminally prosecuted. The whole world isn't black and white. It's not all or nothing. Just because people like the Teamsters have driven the costs of transportation labor to stupid levels doesn't mean that we should abandon minimum wage and labor protection laws. Allowing illegal immigrants into the country by the millions and not enforcing laws regarding hiring them means that companies can flout those laws and creates an unfair advantage to the illegal worker because an employer can now violate all those laws. If an employer were to violate those laws with an American citizen the consequences could be very severe. This leaves us with two choices.

1. Abandon the minimum wage, benefit laws, labor protection laws like overtime pay, vacation pay, etc... so that the American laborer can compete on a level playing field. Keep in mind this would destroy much of teh American consumer class that is responsible for the strength of America's economy as labor prices slip back to the subsistence level.

2. Enforce labor laws and allow employers to hire as many immigrants as they want but at industry standard wages. Immigrant drywallers get $20.00/hour, too, as well as workmen's comp, benefits...

I vote for number two, but this can only happen if we cut deeply into the flow of illegal labor into this country.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 02:47
Yep. That's always proof, right there. "I can't dislike brown people because I have brown friends/family/significan others/employees/et al." I know. You don't dislike brown people. Just certain ones.yes, actually, it is. I do like plenty of "brown" people as you see them. I also don't like plenty of other "brown" people. I can say the same for white, black and Asian people, as a matter in fact. I don't tend to see them that way, but I guess I don't have the racist streak you do. I tend to see them as people. My fiance is Persian and Muslim. I like her a lot. I also like her whole family accept her dad, who is an opium addict. Of course, tehy have never blown up a building or threatened to kill somoene for drawing a cartoon. They came here fleeing the Iranian revolution. Her dad was a physicist and they didn't want any scientists there so they killed them. He made it out because he had family that were part of the revolution so they got a favor.

When it comes to illegal immigrants, I don't have any problem with them as a group. I know there are plenty of them that are criminals like those in MS-13, but for the most part I know they are only doing the same thing I would do were I in their shoes. However, I'm not in their shoes and I love my country and want to protect our working and middle class people, even the "brown" ones. I feel bad that their countries are so impoverished and there's so much political coruption which is why I have worked for organizations such as the Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the standard of living we enjoy here. We have our own struggling people, many if not most of whom are "brown" and I think, as Americans, our first loyalty should be to them. I'm convinced that if we allow this flood of labor we will destroy the middle class of this country and the American economy with it. I'm sure you, Bush and the huge multinational corporations that lobby for open borders and amnesty don't care about any of that, I mean what's America to you but another market, but I do care about that.
Yep, I'm very convinced. You see I never read the thread where DCD suggested we firebomb brown children and you said you agreed with him. I've never read your statements about muslims and arabs nor noticed the coincidentally similar skin color of Mexicans that you singled out in your rant about illegal immigrants. Yep. You're a big fan of brown people. Anybody could figure that out... provided they only listened to what you say when asked if you are racist and don't look at the concentration of your posts against brown people.
I don't think DCD said he wanted to firebomb a bunch of "brown" children. I think he said he wanted to firebomb a bunch of children who were calling for some cartoonists to be hanged. That's the operative statement. It's not the color of their skin, i know you have a problem seeing beyond that, its actually what they stood for that bothered him. Both he and I made it very clear that it was a measure of our frustration with that type of political view that prompted him to say that and me to back him up on his points, though I never said I wanted to firebomb anybody. If you can get beyond your racism and see that its really about politics, culture and religion and not the fact that they are "brown" you may be able to understand people better.
New Granada
09-03-2006, 02:54
Paying americans what they demand to do undersirable jobs would make things more expensive, conceivably even to the point where low-wage american workers would see their quality of life decline as a result of their higher wages.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 02:57
Paying americans what they demand to do undersirable jobs would make things more expensive, conceivably even to the point where low-wage american workers would see their quality of life decline as a result of their higher wages.
Worked 10 years ago. The money being saved by these companies isn't showing up at the store with the possible exception of agriculture. Contractors are just making more money now and living better. They were living pretty well before, though. I think they'd be fine if they went back to paying the wages they were paying.
New Granada
09-03-2006, 03:02
Worked 10 years ago. The money being saved by these companies isn't showing up at the store with the possible exception of agriculture. Contractors are just making more money now and living better. They were living pretty well before, though. I think they'd be fine if they went back to paying the wages they were paying.

Another problem is that the number people whose standard of living is held down, to some extent or another, by low-cost labor is much larger than the people actually apt to work at a low-wage job, so their is added pressure to keep things inexpensive.

Places like wal-mart and the 'wal mart effect' do this through thier use of low-cost labor overseas. If americans were paid a decent wage to make everything that wal-mart has made in china, prices would skyrocket, hurting the majority of americans.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 03:13
Another problem is that the number people whose standard of living is held down, to some extent or another, by low-cost labor is much larger than the people actually apt to work at a low-wage job, so their is added pressure to keep things inexpensive.

Places like wal-mart and the 'wal mart effect' do this through thier use of low-cost labor overseas. If americans were paid a decent wage to make everything that wal-mart has made in china, prices would skyrocket, hurting the majority of americans.
I'm not buying that. Sure there's been a trickle of American jobs and industries going overseas for many years, but it has only been a torrent for the last ten or fifteen. All these jobs and many of these good were still made in America as late as 1990. For the last decade all of a sudden doemstic service jobs are going to illegal labor and skilled jobs are going to India dna manufacturing is going to China. Is America a better place? It may be that the upward pressure in price is counteracted by the downard pressure of volume and buying power. Maybe the give will be that corporate executive salaries may go back down to what they were 15 years ago.
New Granada
09-03-2006, 03:41
I'm not buying that. Sure there's been a trickle of American jobs and industries going overseas for many years, but it has only been a torrent for the last ten or fifteen. All these jobs and many of these good were still made in America as late as 1990. For the last decade all of a sudden doemstic service jobs are going to illegal labor and skilled jobs are going to India dna manufacturing is going to China. Is America a better place? It may be that the upward pressure in price is counteracted by the downard pressure of volume and buying power. Maybe the give will be that corporate executive salaries may go back down to what they were 15 years ago.


Why would corporate executive salaries go down while corporate executives run the government? Higher health-care costs and other much-higher factors mean that low prices are necessary for most people's standard of living to remain or go up. The problems facing the US are by no means limited to the manufactuing exodus. Addressing one problem without addressing the others would make things worse, not better.

Ending immigrant and overseas labor would not make things better, on its own.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 04:06
Why would corporate executive salaries go down while corporate executives run the government? Higher health-care costs and other much-higher factors mean that low prices are necessary for most people's standard of living to remain or go up. The problems facing the US are by no means limited to the manufactuing exodus. Addressing one problem without addressing the others would make things worse, not better.

Ending immigrant and overseas labor would not make things better, on its own.
Agreed and I'm not actually against all outsourcing. I'm against free markets as a religion. I believe in global trade, I just believe that it needs to be done intelligently. The last five years especially has seen an almost religious embrace of free trade and it's been in many ways unilateral. We're not getting the same deals with many countried, notably China and india, that we give them. Domestic trade is enturely another matter. Jobs within the US doen for teh US consumer should be protected by labor laws that take away the unfair advantages that illegal laborers enjoy and at least minimal protection of the standard of living of our working class needs to be central to all of our decisions regarding labor law.
Iztatepopotla
09-03-2006, 04:28
1. Most jobs that illegal aliens are taking are jobs that cater to the local economy. The only way to farm out roofing jobs is to allow illegal immigration.
Directly. Indirectly they help free up resources that go into exports or services. They also help keep down the cost that other employees have to pay to have their roof fixed, etc. letting them have more disposable income on the same wage.

2. Did this whole situation with balanced trade agreements just come out in the last five or ten years? We used to be competitive and have a reasonable standard of living...
The trade agreements, mostly. But trade equalization has been around longer. You may remember back in the 70s when the Japanese started making great inroads in sectors that where the pride of US industry: automotive, steel, etc.

It seems like it started recently but that's because it has been picking up speed for years and years and not it's going fast enough to be seen. But it's been there for a long time.

China is not playing by the rules, BTW. The WTO wants to impose rules to make China adopt open trade practices, but the US insists on bilateral trades with them. It's their funeral, I guess, they tried the same with the Japanese in the late Eighties and failed. Luckily the Japanese economy overheated and went into recession from which they're just coming out, but the same may not happen with the Chinese.

Can the US become competitive again? Sure, no question about it, but they'll have to make some hard choices, invest heavily in technical education, and be willing to take a few losses.
Santa Barbara
09-03-2006, 04:36
You're right. I don't know, that's why I didn't say they're all illegal. I just know that the money that the companies are offering isn't enough to get anyone I know interested in working there. The low pay and the sheer number of Central Americans working those jobs makes me suspect that a large number are illegals.

Wait, if it's a low paying job, and there are Latinos who take the job and people you know (presumably not immigrants, legal or otherwise) don't take it, those who take the job are probably illegal immigrants?

Low wage job + dark skin = illegal immigrant?

Could they be legal immigrants? Could they be just, ya know, people who take what jobs they can? Maybe they're not high school grads like you and people you know are. Maybe other businesses deny them jobs for lack of skill, or maybe just because of xenophobia or racism. There are plenty of explanations yet you basically assume they must be illegals based on nothing more than appearances.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 05:12
The gov't doesn't keep stats on what illegal aliens make for the job nor the number of them that are working in the profession. The fact that, according to Pew Research, almost 40% of drywallers are illegal now means that the wage information they have for drywallers isn't looking at the whole picture.





No, its with illegal immigration and the fact that a flood of labor into domestic service jobs like drywalling has depressed the wages of those workers and the fact that because when you hire an illegal its all of fthe books means that even at the same wages they will not hire American laborers because it is worse to hire an American and pay illegal wages or have them work illegal hours than it is to hire an illegal. If you hire an illegal alien and pay him $10.00/hour and work him for 16 hours someone MIGHT fine you a little money. If you hire an American and do that you can be fined six, eveen seven figures and may be criminally prosecuted. The whole world isn't black and white. It's not all or nothing. Just because people like the Teamsters have driven the costs of transportation labor to stupid levels doesn't mean that we should abandon minimum wage and labor protection laws. Allowing illegal immigrants into the country by the millions and not enforcing laws regarding hiring them means that companies can flout those laws and creates an unfair advantage to the illegal worker because an employer can now violate all those laws. If an employer were to violate those laws with an American citizen the consequences could be very severe. This leaves us with two choices.

1. Abandon the minimum wage, benefit laws, labor protection laws like overtime pay, vacation pay, etc... so that the American laborer can compete on a level playing field. Keep in mind this would destroy much of teh American consumer class that is responsible for the strength of America's economy as labor prices slip back to the subsistence level.

2. Enforce labor laws and allow employers to hire as many immigrants as they want but at industry standard wages. Immigrant drywallers get $20.00/hour, too, as well as workmen's comp, benefits...

I vote for number two, but this can only happen if we cut deeply into the flow of illegal labor into this country.

Depressed the wages? It's unskilled labor. Why should they make more than a kid at McDonald's? Because you think they should? Who cares what you think it's worth. Other people clearly think it's worthwhile to do it for less. Complain if you like, but it's unskilled labor and deserves little consideration. It's not a craft. I've hung drywall and it took me about ten minutes to figure it out.

Maybe it's all those kids taking McDonalds jobs. I'm so frustrated. I'm 31 and instead of spending the last 12 years honing my craft or going to college I should just be able to work at McDonalds for 20/hr. The bastards. 20/hr is still the average wage. And if you ask me, it's still inflated. You'd be hard fought to show why this job requires labor at 20/hr.
La Habana Cuba
09-03-2006, 05:38
I'm not convinced.... Only 10 million people are illegal immigrants (less than 3% of the population)... yet the same source claims that they 'account for' 33% of all births?

I saw this article and another good one I was going to post on my thread, but since almost everyone ignored my thread, I did not posted it, LOL, Sad :(
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 14:43
I missquoted the report in the birth catagory. It's one third of all foreign babies born in the US are born to illegal immigrants. The rest are born to either legal immigrants or naturalized citizens.

http://pewhispanic.org/files/execsum/61.pdf
Just realized something important. If a couple comes to the US and has a baby, that's a baby born to an illegal immigrant. Once they have that "anchor baby" they become legal immigrants by US law. Their next baby is now a baby of legal immigrants.

First - I don't believe you, again.

Can you validate that assertion that "they become legal immigrants by US law"?

Second: These statistics are not all that reliable. I'm a legal permanent resident, but nobody asked for my 'status' when my baby was born.

The numbers are 'best guesses', at best.
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 14:47
Oh, it should also be noted that the people suffering most from the loss of jobs are inner city blacks. After decades of improvement the unemplyment numbers in the innercity are on the rise again as they lose construction and janatorial jobs to illegal immigrants.

So - let me get this... you're argument for why illegal immigrants are so bad, is that they are 'stealing' all the shitty jobs from blacks, that white america has decided are the only jobs coloured skins are fit for?

I'm thinking it ain't the Mexicans that are the problem...
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 14:53
I'm saying that from my point of view as an American he deserves one less than my neighbor does. I fully expect him to feel his countrymen deserve the money more than mine.

Why?

Is the immigrant less 'a person' than your neighbour?

Do you HONESTLY believe we should gain advantage over our fellow man, based on something as beyond our control as where our mothers happen to be when we first scream?
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 15:00
Then how about we agree to do this. Let's get control of the border and other points of entry and lock down illegal immigration as much as possible. Lets enforce existing laws and fine or otherwise punish people who hire illegal immigrants in a way taht makes them not want to do it anymore. If there is a labor shortage left then we can turn to lawful immigration to fill that gap, but only after existing laws have been enforced. Fair enough? That way the lower paying blue collar jobs can be filled by American citizens who will be paying taxes to support the services, such as public education, that they use. We will be able to maintain a middle class in America and impoverished groups including inner city blacks and legally immigrated Hispanics will have an opportunity to move into the American middle class by getting better wages. They will be able to continue the success of their families because they will be able to support better education and health care for the children. If there are jobs left over, and I'm sure there will be, we can farm them out to immigrants who can work here and eventually become naturalized.

I've got a better plan.

Why don't we open the border to Mexico, making all LEGAL Mexican residents, freely able to cross the open border?

We'll make them ALL 'legal' immigrants, then we'll tax them all like citizens. No more funneling funds back to Mexico through unregulated channels.

Solves five problems:

1) No more 'hidden' workers.

2) Minimised international lost revenue.

3) Mexican interests will limit immigrants from elsewhere, through THEIR border.

4) Break the drug market that capitalises on illegal immigration routes and money.

5) Massive boost to Social Security payments by younger immigrant workers, to offset the aging (and underproducing, in terms of children) American population.
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 15:09
When immigrants go back "home" they take their money with them. It's not like that cash is going to stay in the US economy. It gets sent home.


Relevent?

I don't see you pointing out the offshore investors or foreign savings accounts of the wealthy tax-dodgers.

I wonder which is the bigger drain? The minimum wage labourer market, where Juan takes his savings back to Juanita when he leaves the US after 30 years cleaning toilets.... or the tax-loopholes and money 'fed' to foreign interests, by those who get paid six-figure salaries?
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 15:40
yes, actually, it is. I do like plenty of "brown" people as you see them. I also don't like plenty of other "brown" people. I can say the same for white, black and Asian people, as a matter in fact. I don't tend to see them that way, but I guess I don't have the racist streak you do. I tend to see them as people. My fiance is Persian and Muslim. I like her a lot. I also like her whole family accept her dad, who is an opium addict. Of course, tehy have never blown up a building or threatened to kill somoene for drawing a cartoon. They came here fleeing the Iranian revolution. Her dad was a physicist and they didn't want any scientists there so they killed them. He made it out because he had family that were part of the revolution so they got a favor.

When it comes to illegal immigrants, I don't have any problem with them as a group. I know there are plenty of them that are criminals like those in MS-13, but for the most part I know they are only doing the same thing I would do were I in their shoes. However, I'm not in their shoes and I love my country and want to protect our working and middle class people, even the "brown" ones. I feel bad that their countries are so impoverished and there's so much political coruption which is why I have worked for organizations such as the Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the standard of living we enjoy here. We have our own struggling people, many if not most of whom are "brown" and I think, as Americans, our first loyalty should be to them. I'm convinced that if we allow this flood of labor we will destroy the middle class of this country and the American economy with it. I'm sure you, Bush and the huge multinational corporations that lobby for open borders and amnesty don't care about any of that, I mean what's America to you but another market, but I do care about that.

I don't think DCD said he wanted to firebomb a bunch of "brown" children. I think he said he wanted to firebomb a bunch of children who were calling for some cartoonists to be hanged. That's the operative statement. It's not the color of their skin, i know you have a problem seeing beyond that, its actually what they stood for that bothered him. Both he and I made it very clear that it was a measure of our frustration with that type of political view that prompted him to say that and me to back him up on his points, though I never said I wanted to firebomb anybody. If you can get beyond your racism and see that its really about politics, culture and religion and not the fact that they are "brown" you may be able to understand people better.

Yep, it's all just coincidence that it's always brown people that are chapping your hide. So much so that you had to point out the percentage of brown people who are illegal immigrants, because white illegals must not be a problem for you. I know you like plenty of brown people. The 'good' ones who don't act all uppity, right?
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 15:42
I've got a better plan.

Why don't we open the border to Mexico, making all LEGAL Mexican residents, freely able to cross the open border?

We'll make them ALL 'legal' immigrants, then we'll tax them all like citizens. No more funneling funds back to Mexico through unregulated channels.

Solves five problems:

1) No more 'hidden' workers.

2) Minimised international lost revenue.

3) Mexican interests will limit immigrants from elsewhere, through THEIR border.

4) Break the drug market that capitalises on illegal immigration routes and money.

5) Massive boost to Social Security payments by younger immigrant workers, to offset the aging (and underproducing, in terms of children) American population.

Our friend fails to understand that every attempt we've ever made at controlling the supply of a resource that was in demand has simply resulted in more crime surrounding providing the resource. Curbing the supply never works, but if he looks at what causes the demand then he has to look at Americans, and why would anyone want to do that?
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 16:04
Our friend fails to understand that every attempt we've ever made at controlling the supply of a resource that was in demand has simply resulted in more crime surrounding providing the resource. Curbing the supply never works, but if he looks at what causes the demand then he has to look at Americans, and why would anyone want to do that?

It's human nature.... as a species, at least.

There are a weath of problems inherent in the human condition, and the most comfortable accomodation to that, is to find someone to point the finger at.

Germany had this 'problem' with Turks just a few years back (and, of course, a similar problem half a century ago), and Bush has a similar agenda regarding homosexuals.

We have too many 'patriots', and not enough people that identify themselves, instead, as 'citizens of the world'.
Bitchkitten
09-03-2006, 16:28
Thankyou GnI.
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 16:37
Thankyou GnI.

Not sure what I did... but, you are most welcome. :)
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 17:48
Yep, it's all just coincidence that it's always brown people that are chapping your hide. So much so that you had to point out the percentage of brown people who are illegal immigrants, because white illegals must not be a problem for you. I know you like plenty of brown people. The 'good' ones who don't act all uppity, right?
No, it's just that you only seem to notice when its "brown" people. I've railed here against George Bush and his idiocy on several occasions and he ain't "brown." Right now the hottest international issue is the clash between the Western world and the Islamic world. It so happens that most of the Islamic world is in an area of the world where people tend to be dark skinned, not something I ever brought up or considered in any of my argumets, but you don't seem to be able to get beyond the color of their skin. I'm not gonna censor myself because of the color of their skin. My problem with much of the Islamic world is their ideology, not their ethnicity. I have a problem with Islamic fundamentalism and in the Middle East in particular it is pervasive. I have a problem with Christian fundamentalism, too, but until there's another abortion clinic bombing or another Timothy McVeigh the issue of the day is shaped by news coming from the Islamic world - you know, being as how we're at war there and all. When some Christian organization makes the news in a big way for advocating the murder of gynocologists I'll post about what nut cases these people are and you'll ignore the fact that they're white because the only skin color you're color blind to is white skin. I haven't made any racist statement you race bating ideologue. Every statement I've made about the cultural clash that's happening in our world now has been squarely pionted at ideology and politics, never at race. On the domestic front, I don't know if you've noticed but my location is Los Angeles so there's no hotter topic in the local news than illegal immigration. Although people seem to want to pretend this away according to this survey and common sense 78% of all illegal aliens entering this country are from Latin America, people I have nothing against at all. I have no problem with Hispanic culture or immigration frm Latin America or any other part of the world, for that matter. I have a problem with unchecked illegal immigration. You ignored posts that I made that clearly pointed this out because it doesn't jive with your "anybody who disagrees with my stance on illegal immigration is a racist" stance, but I have said several times that I have no problem with immigrants taking jobs in the US, I just think they should be legal and should be paid prevailing wages and get all the same benefits as American citizens so that the playing field is level. Your problem is that you just cannot accept that someone would have legitimate problems with illegal immigration beyond what the race of the immigrants are. People can and do have problems with uncecked immigration that has nothing to do with racism. I'm one of them and there are millions of others of every race that feel the same way. You need to learn not to pay so much attention to people's race. It clouds the issues.
Europa Maxima
09-03-2006, 17:54
*snip*
Well, I for one agree with you.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 17:57
You need to learn not to pay so much attention to people's race. It clouds the issues.

56% of all illegal immigrants are Mexican. 22% are from other countries in Latin America.

Yep. I really should stop looking at people's race so much.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 17:57
First - I don't believe you, again.You don't believe what? I posted statistics from an organization that is widely viewed on all sides as a higly credible research organization. I then posted links to their site, the report itself and the parent organization. I didn't do the research, I just posted it. I don't get what you don't believe. Are you saying I'm making the report up?

Can you validate that assertion that "they become legal immigrants by US law"?Yeah. Its from a document that you may want to read sometime as ints pertinent to alomst every discussion you'll have about politics in the US.

Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Second: These statistics are not all that reliable. I'm a legal permanent resident, but nobody asked for my 'status' when my baby was born.

The numbers are 'best guesses', at best.
Well, I'm sure your aware that your baby is a citizen of the United States. If not you should check into it because he/she is a citizen.
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 17:58
No, it's just that you only seem to notice when its "brown" people. I've railed here against George Bush and his idiocy on several occasions and he ain't "brown." Right now the hottest international issue is the clash between the Western world and the Islamic world. It so happens that most of the Islamic world is in an area of the world where people tend to be dark skinned, not something I ever brought up or considered in any of my argumets, but you don't seem to be able to get beyond the color of their skin. I'm not gonna censor myself because of the color of their skin. My problem with much of the Islamic world is their ideology, not their ethnicity. I have a problem with Islamic fundamentalism and in the Middle East in particular it is pervasive. I have a problem with Christian fundamentalism, too, but until there's another abortion clinic bombing or another Timothy McVeigh the issue of the day is shaped by news coming from the Islamic world - you know, being as how we're at war there and all. When some Christian organization makes the news in a big way for advocating the murder of gynocologists I'll post about what nut cases these people are and you'll ignore the fact that they're white because the only skin color you're color blind to is white skin. I haven't made any racist statement you race bating ideologue. Every statement I've made about the cultural clash that's happening in our world now has been squarely pionted at ideology and politics, never at race. On the domestic front, I don't know if you've noticed but my location is Los Angeles so there's no hotter topic in the local news than illegal immigration. Although people seem to want to pretend this away according to this survey and common sense 78% of all illegal aliens entering this country are from Latin America, people I have nothing against at all. I have no problem with Hispanic culture or immigration frm Latin America or any other part of the world, for that matter. I have a problem with unchecked illegal immigration. You ignored posts that I made that clearly pointed this out because it doesn't jive with your "anybody who disagrees with my stance on illegal immigration is a racist" stance, but I have said several times that I have no problem with immigrants taking jobs in the US, I just think they should be legal and should be paid prevailing wages and get all the same benefits as American citizens so that the playing field is level. Your problem is that you just cannot accept that someone would have legitimate problems with illegal immigration beyond what the race of the immigrants are. People can and do have problems with uncecked immigration that has nothing to do with racism. I'm one of them and there are millions of others of every race that feel the same way. You need to learn not to pay so much attention to people's race. It clouds the issues.

So - you agree with my mechanism, then?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10549570&postcount=99
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 17:59
Yep. I really should stop looking at people's race so much.
Yeah those are statistics from the report. Are you accusing the Pew Hispanic Research center of being racist?
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 17:59
You don't believe what? I posted statistics from an organization that is widely viewed on all sides as a higly credible research organization. I then posted links to their site, the report itself and the parent organization. I didn't do the research, I just posted it. I don't get what you don't believe. Are you saying I'm making the report up?

Yeah. Its from a document that you may want to read sometime as ints pertinent to alomst every discussion you'll have about politics in the US.


Well, I'm sure your aware that your baby is a citizen of the United States. If not you should check into it because he/she is a citizen.


I recommend you go back and read your OWN post, my friend. You are making a different argument here, to the one I am disputing.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 18:08
So - you agree with my mechanism, then?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10549570&postcount=99
I believe that people who want to come into the United States for education or a job should be able to come here after being screened for a criminal past and for health. If there is an employer that is willing to pay prevailing wages and cannot find a citizen or legal resident to fill the position or even if they prefer immigrants they should be able to draw from a pool of workers seeking entry into the US. The fact is that there are jobs that will not be able to be filled at prevailing wages so this provides work for people wishing to immigrate. I also feel that once an immigrant has gotten a job in the US and has worked it for a while they should be offered the opportunity to become legal residents and eventually citizens. What I have a problem with is the unchecked flood of a half million immigrants a year mostly from our southern border. It is overwhelming our health care and educational infratsructure and eventually will start to overwhelm our more basic infrastructure like water and power. It is also starting to take even better paying blue collar jobs from working and middle class citizens. I believe that protecting the standard of living in the working and middle class is important to the prosperity and economic strength of the United States.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 18:16
I recommend you go back and read your OWN post, my friend. You are making a different argument here, to the one I am disputing.
As I said, I'm not clear exectly what you're disputing... If you're disputing the statistics, they're not mine. Your dispute is with Pew. If you're disputing that babies born in the US are automatic citizens, you're argument is with the constitution. If its neither of those, then I don't knwo what your dispute is.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 18:16
Yeah those are statistics from the report. Are you accusing the Pew Hispanic Research center of being racist?

Pardon me? If you're worried about illegal aliens taking jobs then what does it matter what country they're from? You could just make the statement about the number of people coming across that border, but you made a point to inform us about the percentage of people who are a particular race. Why is that pertinent?

Now, I hope you're not suggesting that the Pew HISPANIC Research Center is not focused on a race. That's the flaw. You sought information about hispanics, when if it is a problem at all, it truly doesn't matter what race they are, now does it? I know you try to pretend it's just coincidental that all of your arguments just happen to focus on brown people even when focusing brown people is not necessary, but given the fact that you find it necessary to point out how many people are brown, I'm not buying. I find it interesting that you looked at these huge reports to draw out statistics, but a completely useless statistic that you felt it necessary to point out is who many of them were Mexican. Yes, yes, it's all coincidence. Keep selling that bridge, maybe someone else is dumb enough to buy it.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 18:32
Pardon me? If you're worried about illegal aliens taking jobs then what does it matter what country they're from? You could just make the statement about the number of people coming across that border, but you made a point to inform us about the percentage of people who are a particular race. Why is that pertinent?

Now, I hope you're not suggesting that the Pew HISPANIC Research Center is not focused on a race. That's the flaw. You sought information about hispanics, when if it is a problem at all, it truly doesn't matter what race they are, now does it? I know you try to pretend it's just coincidental that all of your arguments just happen to focus on brown people even when focusing brown people is not necessary, but given the fact that you find it necessary to point out how many people are brown, I'm not buying. I find it interesting that you looked at these huge reports to draw out statistics, but a completely useless statistic that you felt it necessary to point out is who many of them were Mexican. Yes, yes, it's all coincidence. Keep selling that bridge, maybe someone else is dumb enough to buy it.Now you're being deliberately dense to support your assertions. You've now gotten to the point where the only ammo you have left is the "you're a racist" ammo. You have stopped discussing the issue entirly in favor of concentrating on name calling. The fact that 78% of illegal immigrants come through the Mexican border is not important because of their race, its important because it points out where more diligence is needed in patrolling our borders. If 78% of illegal immigrants were coming from Canada I'd be posting about having better enforcement of that border. Again, you've got to stop focusing on race. It seem that thats all you see. The issue here is wether or not unchecked illegal immigration is good for America or not or even wether you care about its effect on America at all. We can agree or not on those points but in order to discuss them you have to be able to see beyond the race of the immigrants or even where they come from, for that matter. I'm not saying we don't need better enforcement on our Northern border and don't think any lawful distinction should be made in immigration policy regarding where the immigrant is from. The bulk of the illegal immigration problem, however, is on our Southern Border so we need to tighten that up first and then we can look at our ports and our northern border.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 18:35
Pardon me? If you're worried about illegal aliens taking jobs then what does it matter what country they're from? You could just make the statement about the number of people coming across that border, but you made a point to inform us about the percentage of people who are a particular race. Why is that pertinent?

Now, I hope you're not suggesting that the Pew HISPANIC Research Center is not focused on a race. That's the flaw. You sought information about hispanics, when if it is a problem at all, it truly doesn't matter what race they are, now does it? I know you try to pretend it's just coincidental that all of your arguments just happen to focus on brown people even when focusing brown people is not necessary, but given the fact that you find it necessary to point out how many people are brown, I'm not buying. I find it interesting that you looked at these huge reports to draw out statistics, but a completely useless statistic that you felt it necessary to point out is who many of them were Mexican. Yes, yes, it's all coincidence. Keep selling that bridge, maybe someone else is dumb enough to buy it. I only drew stats from the executive summary of the report which is two pages long and what drew my attention to it was that it was a news item. I didn't go out of my way to look it up, it was in the LA Times which I read online every morning.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 18:46
Now you're being deliberately dense to support your assertions. You've now gotten to the point where the only ammo you have left is the "you're a racist" ammo. You have stopped discussing the issue entirly in favor of concentrating on name calling. The fact that 78% of illegal immigrants come through the Mexican border is not important because of their race, its important because it points out where more diligence is needed in patrolling our borders. If 78% of illegal immigrants were coming from Canada I'd be posting about having better enforcement of that border. Again, you've got to stop focusing on race. It seem that thats all you see. The issue here is wether or not unchecked illegal immigration is good for America or not or even wether you care about its effect on America at all. We can agree or not on those points but in order to discuss them you have to be able to see beyond the race of the immigrants or even where they come from, for that matter. I'm not saying we don't need better enforcement on our Northern border and don't think any lawful distinction should be made in immigration policy regarding where the immigrant is from. The bulk of the illegal immigration problem, however, is on our Southern Border so we need to tighten that up first and then we can look at our ports and our northern border.

Actually, I made other arguments you ignored them and decided to focus on this. Not I. Don't put your flaw on me.

You did go out of you way to draw out statistics that have nothing to do with the problems you claim. Statistics about race as is common of you in the threads we see you in. You claim I need to stop concentrating on race, then don't single out a particular race in your efforts to make an argument. The only one who singled out brown people in this argument is you. If you'd simply talked about all illegal immigrants, I would have left this entirely out of the argument. As it stands though, it's apparent that it is a driver for your anger on the matter.
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 18:53
As I said, I'm not clear exectly what you're disputing... If you're disputing the statistics, they're not mine. Your dispute is with Pew. If you're disputing that babies born in the US are automatic citizens, you're argument is with the constitution. If its neither of those, then I don't knwo what your dispute is.

That's the worrying thing. You don't even see the difference between your OWN posts.... you don't appear to know what even YOU have previously said.

What you are arguing, is NOT the same as what you DID argue.

You previously said that if an ILLEGAL immigrant has a child in the US, they immediately become a LEGAL immigrant.

I asked you to support that, and you started in one some Constitution-related material that doesn't address the question I asked.

Does the legality of the PARENT, have ANY relevence to the newborn?

Does the newborn have ANY reference to the LEGALITY of the parent?

In both cases, the answer is no. It doesn't matter WHERE the parent is from, the child born on American soil is a citizen. But, on the other hand, it doesn't MATTER if the child IS a citizen, the PARENT is still an 'illegal immigrant'.

It is POSSIBLE that the parent MIGHT be able to APPLY for an 'emergency change of status', to a 'legal' resident.... but I'm neither sure if they could, or if they would be granted that status.

Please - if you can't keep up with all the points of my posts, AT LEAST try to keep up with your own?
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 18:54
I believe that people who want to come into the United States for education or a job should be able to come here after being screened for a criminal past and for health. If there is an employer that is willing to pay prevailing wages and cannot find a citizen or legal resident to fill the position or even if they prefer immigrants they should be able to draw from a pool of workers seeking entry into the US. The fact is that there are jobs that will not be able to be filled at prevailing wages so this provides work for people wishing to immigrate. I also feel that once an immigrant has gotten a job in the US and has worked it for a while they should be offered the opportunity to become legal residents and eventually citizens. What I have a problem with is the unchecked flood of a half million immigrants a year mostly from our southern border. It is overwhelming our health care and educational infratsructure and eventually will start to overwhelm our more basic infrastructure like water and power. It is also starting to take even better paying blue collar jobs from working and middle class citizens. I believe that protecting the standard of living in the working and middle class is important to the prosperity and economic strength of the United States.

Did you even read the post I linked to?
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 19:07
Actually, I made other arguments you ignored them and decided to focus on this. Not I. Don't put your flaw on me.

You did go out of you way to draw out statistics that have nothing to do with the problems you claim. Statistics about race as is common of you in the threads we see you in. You claim I need to stop concentrating on race, then don't single out a particular race in your efforts to make an argument. The only one who singled out brown people in this argument is you. If you'd simply talked about all illegal immigrants, I would have left this entirely out of the argument. As it stands though, it's apparent that it is a driver for your anger on the matter.
I was driving to work yesterday. On the radio the news came on. It metioned the Pew report which came out Tuesday and mentioned some of the statistics. When I got to work as I usually do I started reading all my regular news sites, CNN first, then CNN Money, Marketwatch after that, the LA Times, then the opinion stuff from the editorial pages which was full of immigration stuff and also from some of the local talk radio sites and from energybulletin.net. As always, immigration was hot in the news. There were letters to the editor of the LA Times about immigration and I believe even an op/ed piece. The research report was mentioned again and I decided to look it up myself. I did not read the whole report, I read the executive summary and posted most of it here. The only stats I left out were stats that I felt were redundant and there were very few of those. I pretty much posted just about every stat from the report. After posting the material I stated my position that illegal immigration is hurting our working class and middle class communities. A sentiment many people, even "brown" ones, here in Los Angeles and other communities heavily impacted by immigration, share. You first came in and started making valid points that I disagreed with. We argued for a while, perhaps vehemently, about valid opinions on the issue. Then you called me a racist. I have been defending myself because it is offensive to me and because it is a cheap tactic that draws attention away from the very important central topic which is, once again, "is unchecked illegal immigration good or bad for America and do you care?" While GnI have been having a valid, although heated, debate about the impacts of illegal immigration you have set out to prove that I am racist because I disagree with your stance on illegal immigration.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 19:15
Did you even read the post I linked to?
Yes, you posted that you think we should just open the borders and allow anyone who wants to to just come here and be a citizen. I don't think someone should just be able to walk in. I think they should wait until there is a job for them if their purpose is seeking work. I think they should wait until they have been accepted to a school if their purpose is seeking education. I don't believe in the free flow of unchecked immigration.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 19:19
That's the worrying thing. You don't even see the difference between your OWN posts.... you don't appear to know what even YOU have previously said.

What you are arguing, is NOT the same as what you DID argue.

You previously said that if an ILLEGAL immigrant has a child in the US, they immediately become a LEGAL immigrant.

I asked you to support that, and you started in one some Constitution-related material that doesn't address the question I asked.

Does the legality of the PARENT, have ANY relevence to the newborn?

Does the newborn have ANY reference to the LEGALITY of the parent?

In both cases, the answer is no. It doesn't matter WHERE the parent is from, the child born on American soil is a citizen. But, on the other hand, it doesn't MATTER if the child IS a citizen, the PARENT is still an 'illegal immigrant'.

It is POSSIBLE that the parent MIGHT be able to APPLY for an 'emergency change of status', to a 'legal' resident.... but I'm neither sure if they could, or if they would be granted that status.

Please - if you can't keep up with all the points of my posts, AT LEAST try to keep up with your own?
I've looked it up and you're right. A baby is an automatic citizen, but that does not infer citizenship on the parent. While it does virtually ensure that the parent will not be deported, it does not make them legal. The reason they are called anchor babies is because once they are 21 they can petition for citizenship of their parents and extended family. The reason I haven't paid much attention to that issue is because I am more concerned with the jobs issue and the impact that illegal immigration has on our infrastructure.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 19:41
I was driving to work yesterday. On the radio the news came on. It metioned the Pew report which came out Tuesday and mentioned some of the statistics. When I got to work as I usually do I started reading all my regular news sites, CNN first, then CNN Money, Marketwatch after that, the LA Times, then the opinion stuff from the editorial pages which was full of immigration stuff and also from some of the local talk radio sites and from energybulletin.net. As always, immigration was hot in the news. There were letters to the editor of the LA Times about immigration and I believe even an op/ed piece. The research report was mentioned again and I decided to look it up myself. I did not read the whole report, I read the executive summary and posted most of it here. The only stats I left out were stats that I felt were redundant and there were very few of those. I pretty much posted just about every stat from the report. After posting the material I stated my position that illegal immigration is hurting our working class and middle class communities. A sentiment many people, even "brown" ones, here in Los Angeles and other communities heavily impacted by immigration, share. You first came in and started making valid points that I disagreed with. We argued for a while, perhaps vehemently, about valid opinions on the issue. Then you called me a racist. I have been defending myself because it is offensive to me and because it is a cheap tactic that draws attention away from the very important central topic which is, once again, "is unchecked illegal immigration good or bad for America and do you care?" While GnI have been having a valid, although heated, debate about the impacts of illegal immigration you have set out to prove that I am racist because I disagree with your stance on illegal immigration.

I've done no such thing. You ignored all of my other comments in the thread, and, in fact, when GnI said similar things, you ignored those as well. I made a statement that your motives are clear and you've spent pages talking about it while ignoring my arguments that point how your assertions are FUNDAMENTALLY flawed. Feel free to go back and look. Don't get mad at me because you dropped all the real arguments.

Now, as to your ride to work... what in the name of all that lives and breathes does that have to do with what we're talking about? I quoted you singling out hispanics, particularly Mexicans, when singling them out was not germaine to the point you are making. It's clear to everyone here why you did so and your other comments in other threads make it even more clear. Keep twirling if you like and maybe no one will notice you are helplessly dangling from a rope.

Now, if you'd like to have a discussion, how about going back and addressing the arguments you dropped. It's clear you were unable to address them when either I or GnI made them so you decided to distract everyone by going on this little tirade. I'm unimpressed.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 19:42
Depressed the wages? It's unskilled labor. Why should they make more than a kid at McDonald's? Because you think they should? Who cares what you think it's worth. Other people clearly think it's worthwhile to do it for less. Complain if you like, but it's unskilled labor and deserves little consideration. It's not a craft. I've hung drywall and it took me about ten minutes to figure it out.

Maybe it's all those kids taking McDonalds jobs. I'm so frustrated. I'm 31 and instead of spending the last 12 years honing my craft or going to college I should just be able to work at McDonalds for 20/hr. The bastards. 20/hr is still the average wage. And if you ask me, it's still inflated. You'd be hard fought to show why this job requires labor at 20/hr.

Here's an argument you dropped.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 19:48
I've got a better plan.

Why don't we open the border to Mexico, making all LEGAL Mexican residents, freely able to cross the open border?

We'll make them ALL 'legal' immigrants, then we'll tax them all like citizens. No more funneling funds back to Mexico through unregulated channels.

Solves five problems:

1) No more 'hidden' workers.

2) Minimised international lost revenue.

3) Mexican interests will limit immigrants from elsewhere, through THEIR border.

4) Break the drug market that capitalises on illegal immigration routes and money.

5) Massive boost to Social Security payments by younger immigrant workers, to offset the aging (and underproducing, in terms of children) American population.

Here's another. Nevermind. You FINALLY addressed it.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 19:49
Our friend fails to understand that every attempt we've ever made at controlling the supply of a resource that was in demand has simply resulted in more crime surrounding providing the resource. Curbing the supply never works, but if he looks at what causes the demand then he has to look at Americans, and why would anyone want to do that?

Here's another dropped argument.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 19:55
Why should a drywall hanger get $20/hr? My brother did it for less and was happy to do so. It's not really skilled labor. That's the problem. Americans don't want to learn any skills and then complain that they have no differentiation between themselves and people willing to do it for less. The demand for foreign labor is created by Americans. If we want the supply to go down we have to destroy the demand. It's quite simple. It's like the federal efforts to destroy the supply of drugs. Nothing we do destroys the supply because as long as the demand is there someone will always meet the demand.

Another dropped argument.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 20:10
I've done no such thing. You ignored all of my other comments in the thread, and, in fact, when GnI said similar things, you ignored those as well. I made a statement that your motives are clear and you've spent pages talking about it while ignoring my arguments that point how your assertions are FUNDAMENTALLY flawed. Feel free to go back and look. Don't get mad at me because you dropped all the real arguments. I didn't ignore your arguments. You have said that you feel that illegal immigration should just be dealt with as another element in the free market of labor. I have made it clear that I believe that our nation has a vested interest in protecting the American worker from the depression of wages that is the inevitable result of unchecked illegal immigration. I did not respond to your post below because I had already stated my position on that several times, but here I go again. I do not believe that we should allow unchecked immigration because the cheap labor pool depresses the wages of, in particular, working and middle class jobs.

Now, as to your ride to work... what in the name of all that lives and breathes does that have to do with what we're talking about? I quoted you singling out hispanics, particularly Mexicans, when singling them out was not germaine to the point you are making. It's clear to everyone here why you did so and your other comments in other threads make it even more clear. Keep twirling if you like and maybe no one will notice you are helplessly dangling from a rope. Can you actually post some of those comments to back it up?
I pointed out my ride to work and my morning because your contention is that I deliberately set out and actually went to certain lengths to quote statistics on Hispanic immigrants. My point is that these statistics were not something I deliberately seeked out, they were in fact, a news item of the day and all I needed to do to come across them was pay attention. The report was mentioned on the radio and in the news I read yesterday morning and is obviously important to the debate. By the way, most of the stats I quoted do not mention race. The stats are absolutely germain to the debate and the the fact that 78% of illegal immigration comes from the southern border is not relavent because of race but because that's where most of it is coming from so, as I have stated, thats where most of our efforts at tightening up security should be concentrated. The fact is that illegal immigration from south of the border, as I made clear several times and as is born out in the Pew report, is singled out not by me but by everyone who pays attention to the issue, apparently even by Pew Research, because that is where the vast majority of illegal immigration comes from. They saw fit to not only point out the statistic, but to actually come up with it in the first place. Are they racist, too? That's why its in the news and illegal immigration from Canada is not. It has nothing to do with their skin, it has to do with the visibility in news. If there had been a report released this week that said there was a flood of illegal immigration from Canada and it made the news I would have posted that, too. The fact is that there are not many people paying attention to illegal immigration from other sources and reports about illegal immigration from other areas of the world don't make the news. Are you suggesting that I am not allowed to have an opinion on the subject because most of the people immigrating to the country illegally are "brown?" The fact is, most people immigrating to the country legally are probably "brown," too and I have no problem with that.

Now, if you'd like to have a discussion, how about going back and addressing the arguments you dropped. It's clear you were unable to address them when either I or GnI made them so you decided to distract everyone by going on this little tirade. I'm unimpressed.
Again, you're the one who stared the racist shit and I am and was offended by it and, as such, felt the need to respond.
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 20:33
Yes, you posted that you think we should just open the borders and allow anyone who wants to to just come here and be a citizen. I don't think someone should just be able to walk in. I think they should wait until there is a job for them if their purpose is seeking work. I think they should wait until they have been accepted to a school if their purpose is seeking education. I don't believe in the free flow of unchecked immigration.

Actually, no. I didn't say anything about making them citizens.

You really need to read my posts... not just what you think I might have been meaning...

But, here's a question.... why should immigrants have to WAIT for a job to open, before they come here?

What do you even mean by that?

Do you mean - there MUST be more jobs than unemployed people, REGARDLESS of qualification, ability or intent?

Or - do you mean they should actually HAVE a job here, before they come to the US?

What about unemployed 'Americans', by the way? If there are more unemployed Americans, then there are jobs available here.... what do we do with THEM?

Also - what is wrong with free immigration? A huge influx of immigrants (IF they are all required to pay taxes as citizens, in order to become 'legal') would help the economy for SO MANY reasons... not LEAST being the fact that the US has such an 'old' population... social security is hurting, because there are less 'young' workers.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 20:43
Can you actually post some of those comments to back it up?


http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10509954&postcount=2
I wonder what a cluster bomb would do to a crowd of 5000 children?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10510039&postcount=20
1) They're Pakistani, not Arab. I guess it's all the same to you though. Racist.

2) I don't care if they're unitarians. They're pressuring western nations to execute people for exercising freedom of speech. Fuck 'em. That's an insult to western civilization. That's the behavior of savages. I don't much care what happens to them.

I'm not seriously advocating it. I'm exaggerating my reaction to illustrate how disgusted I am with these arrogant savages who think that they can force us to abandon freedom of speech and freedom of the press, two pillars of Western civilization, because their little feelings were hurt.

Oh, and I never said to use a daisy cutter. Just cluster bombs. After all, we don't want to knock down every building in a wide radius of the blast site, just execute the protesters.:)

Yes, he wasn't 'seriously' advocating, just saying they deserve it. Just pointing out that these savages (children) deserve what they get for demonstrating in their own country under their own laws.

Yeah, but I didn't demand that Muslim people in Muslim land print or view the cartoons. They're demanding that non-muslim people in non-muslim lands implement their laws. I stand by my "Fuck 'Em" comment.

Savage is as savage does. When's the last time we stoned someone to death because she was raped by someone she wasn't married to?

Well then let's get to fighting while we're still a superpower because I damn sure don't want them exporting burquas and stonings.

I never said that the USA was the most civilized country. We may well be the most barbaric of the Western nations, which makes us well suited for fighting off the enemy. Kinda like the barbarian tribes hired by the Romans to help fight off attacking barbarians.

I was going to go into my typical long rant but I would only be repeating everything Drunk Commies Deleted already said.


How's that? Does that do it? How about where you talk about the dirty immigrants even after a CDC quote by GnI showed that immigrant animals are more dangerous and less controlled.

How about in the beginning of this thread when you could have simply concentrated on all illegal immigrants or the percentage of immigrants coming across our southern border (which you did note), but just felt it necessary to mention how many of them happen to be hispanic and Mexican in particular as if it makes a difference.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 20:43
These are all posts made prior to you even coming into the thread. They all directly or indirectly spak to your free labor market assertions. Thought they don't directly deal with your posts, they make it clear that I believe in protecting the American worker from the wage deflation that illegal immigration creates.

Then how about we agree to do this. Let's get control of the border and other points of entry and lock down illegal immigration as much as possible. Lets enforce existing laws and fine or otherwise punish people who hire illegal immigrants in a way taht makes them not want to do it anymore. If there is a labor shortage left then we can turn to lawful immigration to fill that gap, but only after existing laws have been enforced. Fair enough? That way the lower paying blue collar jobs can be filled by American citizens who will be paying taxes to support the services, such as public education, that they use. We will be able to maintain a middle class in America and impoverished groups including inner city blacks and legally immigrated Hispanics will have an opportunity to move into the American middle class by getting better wages. They will be able to continue the success of their families because they will be able to support better education and health care for the children. If there are jobs left over, and I'm sure there will be, we can farm them out to immigrants who can work here and eventually become naturalized.



You and George would get along great. Let's just mow it all down. Screw the great plains. Screw the forests of the Pacific Northwest. Screw teh deserts of the Pacific Southwest. Lets just drill them all for oil and gas and if we don't find any we'll build huge tenement slums se we can have armies of workers to moil and toil in fatories for rich people to make things for rich people and for the new consumer class in China. What are you gonna do in the next election? I doubt Cheney's gonna run and with McCain the most likely candidate for the Republicans you'll have to vote for him and he's not s pro business. In fact, he wants to have real lobbying reform so all teh huge corporations that are lobbying for open borders and amnesty wont have that kind of sway in congress anymore...

Then we have absolutely no problem at all. I completely agree. Lets punish employers who employ illegal immigrants. They can hire all the legal immigrants they want, but they have to pay the same wages and the same taxes as American workers get. All immigrants should be subject to criminal and medical checks and then if there's a job for them they can have it. Whats wierd, is that if we actually enforced the laws we already have that's exactly the situation that would exist right now. You and I are in complete agreement.

Here is a post I made after you entered the thread that dealt with my opinion regarding teh free market of labor from across our broders. You could have simply read that to see that I am protectionist when it comes to labor wages in the US.

Agreed and I'm not actually against all outsourcing. I'm against free markets as a religion. I believe in global trade, I just believe that it needs to be done intelligently. The last five years especially has seen an almost religious embrace of free trade and it's been in many ways unilateral. We're not getting the same deals with many countried, notably China and india, that we give them. Domestic trade is enturely another matter. Jobs within the US doen for teh US consumer should be protected by labor laws that take away the unfair advantages that illegal laborers enjoy and at least minimal protection of the standard of living of our working class needs to be central to all of our decisions regarding labor law.


Here is your second post where your clear implication is to call me a racist. You started the race baiting. I had dealt with your free labor market arguments already. Since I got tired of typing the same thing I instead decided to deal with the cheap and evasive argument you were forwarding that people who feel that our country needs to tighten our borders and who realize that the biggest influx of illegal immigration is coming from our border with Mexico are racist. It is insulting to me and, yes, it does make me angry.

I worked in restaurants all over the country. As most people will attest, many kitchen workers have brown skin. All of the places I've worked paid these workers over minimum wage. The jobs were basically unskilled labor (though it was common to make more money over time if you were good at your job). The occasional white guy would get hired but generally you could expect them to quit. So throughout my time in restaurants the kitchen was filled with brown-skinned people all happy to have jobs and get paid, many of whom didn't speak English. The result. The restaurant stayed in business and continued to employ the dozens of white college kids in the front of the house. One of the guys had been working in a kitchen in TGI Fridays for eight years after immigrating from Mexico. He was paid legally $8/hr and after eight years had bought himself several apartment buildings which he fixed up himself and was making a good deal of money, but he never quit the job that got him there.

You want to know why businesses are hiring immigrants. Look at yourself. Businesses will go for the best value. If you can't provide the necessary value, they will look elsewhere. We try to argue that janitorial positions deserve $20/hr and then complain that someone is willing to do it for $10. Don't be pissed at foreigners that many Americans have tried to force the market to pay above market value. It forces businesses to look to cheaper sources of labor and even risk prosecution in order to stay in business.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 20:54
*snip
You just posted a whole bunch of shit from CDC, which deals with cross cultural frustration and not with racial frustration, and then because I agree that I too am frustrated with the constant push to censor our freedom of expression through intimidation and somehow you think that's proof that I'm racist? I have a problem with people who threaten to kill people for speaking their mind. That doesn't make me a racist. CDC didn't even mention race until someone else did and only then to point out that their race did not matter to him. I agree. I don't care what race they are. Anyone who responds to free expression with death threats is someone I dont' like whatever their race. As for the rest of yoru post, you called them dirty immigrants, not me. I simply pointed out the undeniable fact that unchecked immigration is a vector for disease. As for animals carrying disease, I'm not sure that I buy that. Most people get sick from contact with other people, not with animals. Also, there is less that we can do about that unless we really want to fuck up the environment by messing with animal migration routes. Might as well concentrate on things we can do something about.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 20:58
How about in the beginning of this thread when you could have simply concentrated on all illegal immigrants or the percentage of immigrants coming across our southern border (which you did note), but just felt it necessary to mention how many of them happen to be hispanic and Mexican in particular as if it makes a difference.
I've responded to this 10 fucking times, but I'll do it again. The report was in the news because it had just been released. The report concentrated on Hispanic immigrants. The report concentrated on Hispanic immigrants because the vast majority of illegal immigrants are Hispanic. If I'm racist because I posted this then so are the authors of the report and just about anyone else in the news or public square because they ALL concentrate on the Mexican border. Even advocates of open borders frequently refer only to the border with Mexico when discussing immigration.
Grave_n_idle
09-03-2006, 21:03
You just posted a whole bunch of shit from CDC, which deals with cross cultural frustration and not with racial frustration, and then because I agree that I too am frustrated with the constant push to censor our freedom of expression through intimidation and somehow you think that's proof that I'm racist? I have a problem with people who threaten to kill people for speaking their mind. That doesn't make me a racist. CDC didn't even mention race until someone else did and only then to point out that their race did not matter to him. I agree. I don't care what race they are. Anyone who responds to free expression with death threats is someone I dont' like whatever their race. As for the rest of yoru post, you called them dirty immigrants, not me. I simply pointed out the undeniable fact that unchecked immigration is a vector for disease. As for animals carrying disease, I'm not sure that I buy that. Most people get sick from contact with other people, not with animals. Also, there is less that we can do about that unless we really want to fuck up the environment by messing with animal migration routes. Might as well concentrate on things we can do something about.

I think you might be confusing two different tla's.

(Three Letter Acronym, like CDC and DCD).
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 21:12
You just posted a whole bunch of shit from CDC, which deals with cross cultural frustration and not with racial frustration, and then because I agree that I too am frustrated with the constant push to censor our freedom of expression through intimidation and somehow you think that's proof that I'm racist? I have a problem with people who threaten to kill people for speaking their mind. That doesn't make me a racist. CDC didn't even mention race until someone else did and only then to point out that their race did not matter to him. I agree. I don't care what race they are. Anyone who responds to free expression with death threats is someone I dont' like whatever their race. As for the rest of yoru post, you called them dirty immigrants, not me. I simply pointed out the undeniable fact that unchecked immigration is a vector for disease. As for animals carrying disease, I'm not sure that I buy that. Most people get sick from contact with other people, not with animals. Also, there is less that we can do about that unless we really want to fuck up the environment by messing with animal migration routes. Might as well concentrate on things we can do something about.

Yep, all this 'cross-cultural frustration' just happens to be focused at brown-skinned people. How coincidental.

And let's not get into that thread, but I'm relatively certain those children weren't actually threatening to kill anyone, being children and all and several thousand miles away.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 21:15
I think you might be confusing two different tla's.

(Three Letter Acronym, like CDC and DCD).
I was. Thanks. I was talking about DrunkCommiesDeleted.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 21:15
These are all posts made prior to you even coming into the thread. They all directly or indirectly spak to your free labor market assertions. Thought they don't directly deal with your posts, they make it clear that I believe in protecting the American worker from the wage deflation that illegal immigration creates.







Here is a post I made after you entered the thread that dealt with my opinion regarding teh free market of labor from across our broders. You could have simply read that to see that I am protectionist when it comes to labor wages in the US.




Here is your second post where your clear implication is to call me a racist. You started the race baiting. I had dealt with your free labor market arguments already. Since I got tired of typing the same thing I instead decided to deal with the cheap and evasive argument you were forwarding that people who feel that our country needs to tighten our borders and who realize that the biggest influx of illegal immigration is coming from our border with Mexico are racist. It is insulting to me and, yes, it does make me angry.

None of those posts address the point at all. Why does a person who is unskilled deserve to get paid 20/hr when there are people who are adequately qualified (they walk upright) and willing to work for less?

Why focus any effort at all on supply when demand is the problem? The demand is there because the American worker (read: some workers) believe they are too good to scrub a toilet for minimum wage, which is what it's worth. The problem is that Americans are unwilling to hold the jobs, but that they expect to get paid more than they're worth to do the job.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 21:18
I've responded to this 10 fucking times, but I'll do it again. The report was in the news because it had just been released. The report concentrated on Hispanic immigrants. The report concentrated on Hispanic immigrants because the vast majority of illegal immigrants are Hispanic. If I'm racist because I posted this then so are the authors of the report and just about anyone else in the news or public square because they ALL concentrate on the Mexican border. Even advocates of open borders frequently refer only to the border with Mexico when discussing immigration.

I'm not protesting your focus on the Mexican border. I looked that link. You pulled statistics that had no use into the discussion just to drag the fact that many immigrants are Mexican into the mix. How does that affect whether or not illegal immigrants are taking American jobs? Hmmmm.... It doesn't. Stop defending that which you cannot defend. It had no business in your post.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 21:19
56% of all illegal immigrants are Mexican.

Unnecessary focus on race.

78% of all illegal immigrants enter the U.S. through the Mexican border.

Same basic point, but with no focus on race and completely germaine to the discussion.

You added a point about the race of immigrants for no purpose simply to point out their race. Keep twisting.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 21:20
Yep, all this 'cross-cultural frustration' just happens to be focused at brown-skinned people. How coincidental.Yes it is. The fact that you don't treat it as coincidental makes you the racist, not me. The biggest news issue of the modern world is arguably the clash between the Western world and the islamic wold. The fact that the most volitile area of the islamic world and the place where the protests in question happened is an area where the people are dark skinned is a fact YOU keep bringing up. Not me. Find me one post where I ever mentioned the skin color or race of the people protesting and calling for the deaths of these cartoonists. Just one.

And let's not get into that thread, but I'm relatively certain those children weren't actually threatening to kill anyone, being children and all and several thousand miles away.
No, they were calling for them to be killed. Hanged, actually, if I remember right.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 21:23
Yes it is. The fact that you don't treat it as coincidental makes you the racist, not me. The biggest news issue of the modern world is arguably the clash between the Western world and the islamic wold. The fact that the most volitile area of the islamic world and the place where the protests in question happened is an area where the people are dark skinned is a fact YOU keep bringing up. Not me. Find me one post where I ever mentioned the skin color or race of the people protesting and calling for the deaths of these cartoonists. Just one.


No, they were calling for them to be killed. Hanged, actually, if I remember right.

Uh-huh. Keep defending your pathological focus on the way brown-skinned people are ruining your life or 'coming for you' or whatever. Or blame me and everyone else who notices it. It's been very effective so far.

Now, would you like to put this kind of effort into responding to my points or do you just want to focus on your problem with brown-skinned people (not all of 'em, just the bad ones, of course)?

I'm willing to let it drop, but I don't think it's a coincidence that people have repeatedly said almost the exact same thing to you I am.

Again, I posted many points in this thread which you've not addressed as has GnI. How about you focus on them and stop trying to be a martyr by blowing a single comment WAY out of proportion?
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 21:24
No, they were calling for them to be killed. Hanged, actually, if I remember right.

Yup, hanged. Kind of like you called for them to be killed. I didn't miss the irony of it. Cluster-bombed if I remember right. You also recommended war on their country because of a protest.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 21:25
None of those posts address the point at all. Why does a person who is unskilled deserve to get paid 20/hr when there are people who are adequately qualified (they walk upright) and willing to work for less?

Why focus any effort at all on supply when demand is the problem? The demand is there because the American worker (read: some workers) believe they are too good to scrub a toilet for minimum wage, which is what it's worth. The problem is that Americans are unwilling to hold the jobs, but that they expect to get paid more than they're worth to do the job.
The smaller the pool of labor the greater the price demanded for it. If you flood a market with cheap labor it drives the price down. If you remove a flood fo cheap labor the price will go back up. The fact is people were getting those wages regularly prior to the mass influx of illegal labor. If you stop that influx it is reasonable that the price wil go back up.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 21:27
The smaller the pool of labor the greater the price demanded for it. If you flood a market with cheap labor it drives the price down. If you remove a flood fo cheap labor the price will go back up. The fact is people were getting those wages regularly prior to the mass influx of illegal labor. If you stop that influx it is reasonable that the price wil go back up.
None of this justifies why unskilled labor should be worth $20/hr. The deflation merely negates an artificial inflation of the scale by the American worker who is too good to do certain jobs unless the pay is outrageous. I would say if everyone in America agreed that they were unwilling to work at McDonald's for less than $20/hr that it would be in McDonald's and everyone else's best interest to look eslewhere for someone willing to do the job for what it's worth.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 21:30
I'm not protesting your focus on the Mexican border. I looked that link. You pulled statistics that had no use into the discussion just to drag the fact that many immigrants are Mexican into the mix. How does that affect whether or not illegal immigrants are taking American jobs? Hmmmm.... It doesn't. Stop defending that which you cannot defend. It had no business in your post.
Wrong. The report had those statistics. I qouted almost all of the statistics in it except for a few that I thought were redundant. For example, teh report had statistics on how many illegal immigrants were employed in food handling. I posted the overall statistic. It then went further and broke it down to what type of food handling. I didn't feel that was necessary to the discussion. The fact that illegal immigrants are taking Areican jobs is the point of the discussion. The fact that most of them come from latin America is relevent to how to deal with that. It points the finger squarely at tightening our southern border as the most important means of cutting donw the flow of illegal immigrants.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 21:35
Wrong. The report had those statistics. I qouted almost all of the statistics in it except for a few that I thought were redundant. For example, teh report had statistics on how many illegal immigrants were employed in food handling. I posted the overall statistic. It then went further and broke it down to what type of food handling. I didn't feel that was necessary to the discussion. The fact that illegal immigrants are taking Areican jobs is the point of the discussion. The fact that most of them come from latin America is relevent to how to deal with that. It points the finger squarely at tightening our southern border as the most important means of cutting donw the flow of illegal immigrants.

You didn't think it was necessary to post the breakdown unless it was to point out the number of Mexicans involved. Then it suddenly becomes important to further break things down. Or are you actually claiming that the statement of how many of the immigrants are coming across the Mexican border wasn't enough and that is germaine to the conversation to point out how many of those immigrants were Mexican and how many were simply hispanic? You make my point for me. Maybe I should just sit back and let you post.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 21:39
None of this justifies why unskilled labor should be worth $20/hr. The deflation merely negates an artificial inflation of the scale by the American worker who is too good to do certain jobs unless the pay is outrageous. I would say if everyone in America agreed that they were unwilling to work at McDonald's for less than $20/hr that it would be in McDonald's and everyone else's best interest to look eslewhere for someone willing to do the job for what it's worth.
Well, here we'll part company. The jobs were worth that before the massive influx as witnessed by the fact that people paid it. I beleive that it is our country's best interest to maintain some wage inflation because it helps to sustain a large, comfortable consumer class and because it helps to reduce civil strife and creates a better community. I believe keeping the flow of immigrants to a minimum will help to protect the working class and I believe our country is better for it. So did FDR, by the way. That's how he got us out of the depression - by inflating the wages of the working class and putting money in their pockets.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 21:42
You didn't think it was necessary to post the breakdown unless it was to point out the number of Mexicans involved. Then it suddenly becomes important to further break things down. Or are you actually claiming that the statement of how many of the immigrants are coming across the Mexican border wasn't enough and that is germaine to the conversation to point out how many of those immigrants were Mexican and how many were simply hispanic? You make my point for me. Maybe I should just sit back and let you post.hahahahahah!!!!!

The breakdown was not by race, you imbecile. It just goes to show how much you have to resort to race to make an argument. The breakdown was by profession. You know, butcher, cook, etc...

Have you ever heard the saying that if you look for something hard enough you'll find it where its not?
Achtung 45
09-03-2006, 21:45
Well, here we'll part company. The jobs were worth that before the massive influx as witnessed by the fact that people paid it. I beleive that it is our country's best interest to maintain some wage inflation because it helps to sustain a large, comfortable consumer class and because it helps to reduce civil strife and creates a better community. I believe keeping the flow of immigrants to a minimum will help to protect the working class and I believe our country is better for it. So did FDR, by the way. That's how he got us out of the depression - by inflating the wages of the working class and putting money in their pockets.
Even such, with the readily cheap labor supply being suddenly removed, and if Americans would only take those jobs if it had certain benefits and paid better, what would that do to the company? A lot of businesses here depend on the good supply of cheap labor. Americans are being taught that menial work is bad and that if they try really hard, they'll be successful. Well, if everyone is successful, then that's just the standard so it's not successful anymore, and people will be pushing their kids even more, further eliminating the supply of menial workers.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 21:46
Yup, hanged. Kind of like you called for them to be killed. I didn't miss the irony of it. Cluster-bombed if I remember right. You also recommended war on their country because of a protest.
But never mentioned their race...
Silly English KNIGHTS
09-03-2006, 21:47
Exactly. This is now the fourth time I've said this. Illegals do jobs that the majority of Americans wouldn't. A lot of local business here wouldn't be able to hire anyone if it weren't for the illegal immigrants. They provide good, honest work, and keep many small businesses running.
Oh please... if that were true, then why are those numbers so SMALL?? If no Americans were willing to do that work, wouldn't the numbers of illegal immigrants doing it be more like 10 out of 10? With citizens unable to find work, I imagine they'd be happy for any job at any pay, if it didn't result in them losing the free hand-out they'd rather get from the government for sitting on their butts. I know if I was unemployed and having to feed my family, I'd take any work I could find at whatever pay rate I could get at LEAST until I was able to find something better. Then again, I guess that kind of work ethic and sense of responsibility are just part of the brainwashing I've received from republicans... yeah right.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 21:52
Even such, with the readily cheap labor supply being suddenly removed, and if Americans would only take those jobs if it had certain benefits and paid better, what would that do to the company? A lot of businesses here depend on the good supply of cheap labor. Americans are being taught that menial work is bad and that if they try really hard, they'll be successful. Well, if everyone is successful, then that's just the standard so it's not successful anymore, and people will be pushing their kids even more, further eliminating the supply of menial workers.
the thing is I'm not sure what the price of any specific labor should be, I just know it will be higher if you reduce the pool of people willing to do it. If we illiminate the influx of illegal labor we will thus be reducing the pool of people willing to do it. If drywalling is worth $5/hour with a flood of illegal labor, I don't knwo that the price will skyrocket back up to $20.00, but it will at least go back up to the minimum wage and probably higher. Maybe it will be $10.00, maybe $15.00. but it will go up.
Achtung 45
09-03-2006, 21:52
Oh please... if that were true, then why are those numbers so SMALL?? If no Americans were willing to do that work, wouldn't the numbers of illegal immigrants doing it be more like 10 out of 10? With citizens unable to find work, I imagine they'd be happy for any job at any pay, if it didn't result in them losing the free hand-out they'd rather get from the government for sitting on their butts. I know if I was unemployed and having to feed my family, I'd take any work I could find at whatever pay rate I could get at LEAST until I was able to find something better. Then again, I guess that kind of work ethic and sense of responsibility are just part of the brainwashing I've received from republicans... yeah right.
I never said no Americans would be willing to work. You're taking everything out of context. Even in Arizona, where over half of all immigrants are here illegal, there are still a lot more Americans than illegal immigrants, so naturally, the numbers will reflect that. And of course there are going to be exceptions to everything, but in general, if all the illegal immigrants are suddenly deported, I fear our entire local economy would collapse.
Achtung 45
09-03-2006, 21:55
the thing is I'm not sure what the price of any specific labor should be, I just know it will be higher if you reduce the pool of people willing to do it. If we illiminate the influx of illegal labor we will thus be reducing the pool of people willing to do it. If drywalling is worth $5/hour with a flood of illegal labor, I don't knwo that the price will skyrocket back up to $20.00, but it will at least go back up to the minimum wage and probably higher. Maybe it will be $10.00, maybe $15.00. but it will go up.
Yeah, it does sound like a good plan and I could roll with that. The problem is that instead of suddenly deporting all illegals, we need to spread it over a borad period of time, say five years. That way, companies will be able to adjust to the increase in wages instead of just suddenly be without a ready supply of labor.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 21:58
I never said no Americans would be willing to work. You're taking everything out of context. Even in Arizona, where over half of all immigrants are here illegal, there are still a lot more Americans than illegal immigrants, so naturally, the numbers will reflect that. And of course there are going to be exceptions to everything, but in general, if all the illegal immigrants are suddenly deported, I fear our entire local economy would collapse.
It may go through some volitility, but I don't think it would collapse because its not like illegal labor can disappear in one day. It would take some time and enforcement to gradually shrink it. Its not like some genie can blank all the illegal immigrants away in a flash. Contractors, for example, would have to start replacing illegal immigrants with American workers. They would have to reflect that change in the price of their services. This may reduce the pool of customers, but eventually a balance would emerge. The people who pay for their services may have less to spend in the economy, but the pool of people who have money to spend would increase by virtue of the fact that the employer is now paying higher wages to people...
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 21:59
But never mentioned their race...

Didn't say you did. That wasn't the point. You tried to justify your statements and I pointed out that they were no different than yours except they are children and you, I believe, are not.
Achtung 45
09-03-2006, 22:01
It may go through some volitility, but I don't think it would collapse because its not like illegal labor can disappear in one day. It would take some time and enforcement to gradually shrink it. Its not like some genie can blank all the illegal immigrants away in a flash. Contractors, for example, would have to start replacing illegal immigrants with American workers. They would have to reflect that change in the price of their services. This may reduce the pool of customers, but eventually a balance would emerge. The people who pay for their services may have less to spend in the economy, but the pool of people who have money to spend would increase by virtue of the fact that the employer is now paying higher wages to people...
Agreed.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 22:05
hahahahahah!!!!!

The breakdown was not by race, you imbecile. It just goes to show how much you have to resort to race to make an argument. The breakdown was by profession. You know, butcher, cook, etc...

Have you ever heard the saying that if you look for something hard enough you'll find it where its not?

Name-calling now. You should probably avoid that word. Particularly when I'm about to show you how you're wrong (it was actually by nationality (race was implied), but I was making the point that unnecessarily singled-out the brown-skinned people, particularly Mexicans).

56% of all illegal immigrants are Mexican.
22% are from other countries in Latin America.

The above would be a breakdown of the below. You should really read you're own posts before calling people names that better describe the writer of posts like the post I am replying to.

78% of all illegal immigrants enter the U.S. through the Mexican border.

Now, perhaps if I quote that a half dozen more times like I already have, you'll be able to follow what I'm referring to. Let me know if you need me to quote it again. I'm happy to help you better understand your posts.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 22:18
Name-calling now. You should probably avoid that word. Particularly when I'm about to show you how you're wrong (it was actually by nationality (race was implied), but I was making the point that unnecessarily singled-out the brown-skinned people, particularly Mexicans).



The above would be a breakdown of the below. You should really read you're own posts before calling people names that better describe the writer of posts like the post I am replying to.



Now, perhaps if I quote that a half dozen more times like I already have, you'll be able to follow what I'm referring to. Let me know if you need me to quote it again. I'm happy to help you better understand your posts.
And I've responded every single time by pointing out tha the nationality of the immigrants is important because it points to where we need to concentrate our efforts - the Mexican border. I have also pointed out that the report in question made the distinction, not me. They did not go farther and breakdown the statistics by any otjher race, they only mentioned Latin America. I also pointed out that the whole debate about illegal immigration centers on immigration from Latin America because that's where most of it originates from. If I'm racist for pointing that out then so are thr authors of the report, the reporters from the LA Times and every other local newspaper I'm aware of, the local television news reporters and everyone I've seen even debate this issue including immigrants rights groups who I don't believe I have ever heard talk about the issue without framing it the context of illegal immigration from over the souther biorder. Everytime you point out that I posted that statistic I will respond the same way. The report pointed it out because it is important to the debate to recognize that the border that is bleeding the most is our Mexican border. I posted the stats that the report had for the same reason. That is why I posted them. For that reason. that one and that one alone. The reason that most illegal immigration comes from latin America over our southern border. That's the reason I posted that. From the report. That's the reason the report mentioned it. because that's where most of it comes from. the Mexican border is where most illegalimmigration ito the US comes from. South of us. From Latin America. I got the statistics from the report. They had those statistics for the same reason I posted them. Most news and opinion articles refer to immigration in the same context. How many more times do I need to say that? I said it about 400 times before this post and you keep ignoring it and asking why I mentioned that 78% of illegal immigrants come from latin America. I mentioned it for the same reason the report did. Anytime you ever bring that up I'll answer the same way...
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 22:21
Name-calling now. You should probably avoid that word. Particularly when I'm about to show you how you're wrong (it was actually by nationality (race was implied), but I was making the point that unnecessarily singled-out the brown-skinned people, particularly Mexicans).



The above would be a breakdown of the below. You should really read you're own posts before calling people names that better describe the writer of posts like the post I am replying to.



Now, perhaps if I quote that a half dozen more times like I already have, you'll be able to follow what I'm referring to. Let me know if you need me to quote it again. I'm happy to help you better understand your posts.
BTW - You notice that even with all the other people disagreeing with me you're the only one resorting to race baiting? Even GnI never calle me a racist...
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 22:24
Didn't say you did. That wasn't the point. You tried to justify your statements and I pointed out that they were no different than yours except they are children and you, I believe, are not.
can't decipher your second sentence but I believe that was exactly the point. You were using that as a means of calling myself and DCD racists. I pointed out that you're the only one that mentioned race. If you want to call us warmongers because of that fine, bue neither of us made race an issue. If it were a bunch of Germans calling for these cartoonists to be hung I believe our responses would be the same. Bunch of blond haired, blue eyed savages... :mad:
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 22:35
Well, here we'll part company. The jobs were worth that before the massive influx as witnessed by the fact that people paid it. I beleive that it is our country's best interest to maintain some wage inflation because it helps to sustain a large, comfortable consumer class and because it helps to reduce civil strife and creates a better community. I believe keeping the flow of immigrants to a minimum will help to protect the working class and I believe our country is better for it. So did FDR, by the way. That's how he got us out of the depression - by inflating the wages of the working class and putting money in their pockets.

So? People were steadily overpaying employees in dozens of markets because Americans continued to become increasingly determined to get what they are 'owed'. It used to be we believed in hard work to achieve the American dream, now we believe in a lottery ticket and a handout. Hell, yes, a job that pays twice what it is worth is a handout. Look at the success of the lottery. Look at the litigious nature of the US. Look at the abuse of social services while people who actually need them are left behind. Look at the expectations that someone else is always responsible for our problems. The Mexicans, or the Iraqis, or the Chinese or the greedy corporations or Bush or Clinton or Janet Jackson's tit. We're never at fault.

Americans are angry because unskilled jobs that are required to stay are starting to leave. But we drive them out by demanding more than our labor is worth. We complain that foreigners are taking our jobs both legally and illegally, but we aren't willing to do that type of unskilled labor for a wage commensurate with the cost of unskilled labor.

If McDonald's takes more training than your job then your employer isn't screwing you by paying you McDonald's wages.

You don't like it. Start your own business and set your own wages. Meanwhile, I see no reason why if I have a business why I should pay a drywaller the wages the average college graduate gets when starting their career.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 22:36
can't decipher your second sentence but I believe that was exactly the point. You were using that as a means of calling myself and DCD racists. I pointed out that you're the only one that mentioned race. If you want to call us warmongers because of that fine, bue neither of us made race an issue. If it were a bunch of Germans calling for these cartoonists to be hung I believe our responses would be the same. Bunch of blond haired, blue eyed savages... :mad:

No, racist is something I gathered by the skin color of all the subjects of your rants. Don't like. I don't care.

And they were children. I assume you are not a child. Otherwise the behavior demonstrated by both was equally violent and contemptable.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 22:43
So? People were steadily overpaying employees in dozens of markets because Americans continued to become increasingly determined to get what they are 'owed'. It used to be we believed in hard work to achieve the American dream, now we believe in a lottery ticket and a handout. Hell, yes, a job that pays twice what it is worth is a handout. Look at the success of the lottery. Look at the litigious nature of the US. Look at the abuse of social services while people who actually need them are left behind. Look at the expectations that someone else is always responsible for our problems. The Mexicans, or the Iraqis, or the Chinese or the greedy corporations or Bush or Clinton or Janet Jackson's tit. We're never at fault.

Americans are angry because unskilled jobs that are required to stay are starting to leave. But we drive them out by demanding more than our labor is worth. We complain that foreigners are taking our jobs both legally and illegally, but we aren't willing to do that type of unskilled labor for a wage commensurate with the cost of unskilled labor.

If McDonald's takes more training than your job then your employer isn't screwing you by paying you McDonald's wages.

You don't like it. Start your own business and set your own wages. Meanwhile, I see no reason why if I have a business why I should pay a drywaller the wages the average college graduate gets when starting their career.
And I don't think wages should be set by anything other than the market, either except that I believe there should be a minimum wage and certain protective laws like child labor laws. I just believe that to protect the wages of the American worker in America we should limit the pool of any particular job to Americans first and legal immigrants second. If those market conditions mean drywallers make $10.00/hour, so be it. At least it doesn't mean an American can't get the job at any price, which is what is happening in many industries. If we control the flow of immigration and force employers to recognize the same laws for immigrants as it does for Americans then I'm fine with however many immigrants get in.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 22:47
No, racist is something I gathered by the skin color of all the subjects of your rants. Don't like. I don't care.

And they were children. I assume you are not a child. Otherwise the behavior demonstrated by both was equally violent and contemptable.
Just so long as you admit that it was you looking at the race of the subjects and not me, we're cool. :) As for the children, I even said in the thread if you read a little further, that I was not in favor of cluster bombing children. Even so, as I said a few posts up, call me a warmonger, not a racist. I'll admit that the sentiment was too harsh a reaction, but I stand by my right to be thuroughly frustrated by the attempts to intimidate the West into limiting one of the freedoms we hold most dear.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 22:47
I worked in restaurants all over the country. As most people will attest, many kitchen workers have brown skin. All of the places I've worked paid these workers over minimum wage. The jobs were basically unskilled labor (though it was common to make more money over time if you were good at your job). The occasional white guy would get hired but generally you could expect them to quit. So throughout my time in restaurants the kitchen was filled with brown-skinned people all happy to have jobs and get paid, many of whom didn't speak English. The result. The restaurant stayed in business and continued to employ the dozens of white college kids in the front of the house. One of the guys had been working in a kitchen in TGI Fridays for eight years after immigrating from Mexico. He was paid legally $8/hr and after eight years had bought himself several apartment buildings which he fixed up himself and was making a good deal of money, but he never quit the job that got him there.

You want to know why businesses are hiring immigrants. Look at yourself. Businesses will go for the best value. If you can't provide the necessary value, they will look elsewhere. We try to argue that janitorial positions deserve $20/hr and then complain that someone is willing to do it for $10. Don't be pissed at foreigners that many Americans have tried to force the market to pay above market value. It forces businesses to look to cheaper sources of labor and even risk prosecution in order to stay in business.

Here is the post I wrote commenting on the situation. The reason I mentioned skin color is because in most restaurants that is exactly how the jobs are chosen. It doesn't matter what country you were from, if you were white and clean cut, front of the house. Everyone else is hidden from view except for a couple of busboys. It wasn't a comment about you, but about the restaurant business.

Wanna see where racism became the issue and I was forced to comment?

I have no problem with the color of their skin. That's the first refuge you open border people jump to. If they are against illegal immigration they are racist anti immigrant. I worked my way through college in restaurants, too. While I'm sure some of the cooks and busboys were illegal most of the Hispanic workers were legal immigrants. More power to them. I'm glad they are able to live here and I hope they are able to achieve their part of the American dream. Unfortunately many fo them may have a hard time finding jobs now because there are so many more illegal immigrants and enforcement is so much more lax since the Bush administration came to power. That's probably why there is so much growing opposition to illegal immigration in the hispanic community.

You jumped to racism and made a statement I couldn't agree with, that you have no problem with brown-skinned people. That's where this all began. If you don't want to discuss your racism then don't bring it up. Thanks. We're done with this area of conversation, no?
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 22:49
No, racist is something I gathered by the skin color of all the subjects of your rants. Don't like. I don't care.

And they were children. I assume you are not a child. Otherwise the behavior demonstrated by both was equally violent and contemptable.
Also, I've ranted plenty on here about George Bush and about Christian beliefs and their attempts to subvert science classes and they're not all "brown."
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 22:55
Here is the post I wrote commenting on the situation. The reason I mentioned skin color is because in most restaurants that is exactly how the jobs are chosen. It doesn't matter what country you were from, if you were white and clean cut, front of the house. Everyone else is hidden from view except for a couple of busboys. It wasn't a comment about you, but about the restaurant business.Why did you feel teh need to single out their skin color? Why was that relevent to your point? I only brought up skin color in response to this post. It had nothing to do with the point at all or anything that had been discussed. The only reason nationality was involved at all before this was to point out that the southern border is the biggest gateway into the US for illegal immigration. You had to bring in skin color. Can't you get beyond the issue of race here?

Wanna see where racism became the issue and I was forced to comment?



You jumped to racism and made a statement I couldn't agree with, that you have no problem with brown-skinned people. That's where this all began. If you don't want to discuss your racism then don't bring it up. Thanks. We're done with this area of conversation, no?

I have no problem with the color of their skin. That's the first refuge you open border people jump to. If they are against illegal immigration they are racist anti immigrant. I worked my way through college in restaurants, too. While I'm sure some of the cooks and busboys were illegal most of the Hispanic workers were legal immigrants. More power to them. I'm glad they are able to live here and I hope they are able to achieve their part of the American dream. Unfortunately many fo them may have a hard time finding jobs now because there are so many more illegal immigrants and enforcement is so much more lax since the Bush administration came to power. That's probably why there is so much growing opposition to illegal immigration in the hispanic community.Sounds like a real racist to me...
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 23:28
Just so long as you admit that it was you looking at the race of the subjects and not me, we're cool. :) As for the children, I even said in the thread if you read a little further, that I was not in favor of cluster bombing children. Even so, as I said a few posts up, call me a warmonger, not a racist. I'll admit that the sentiment was too harsh a reaction, but I stand by my right to be thuroughly frustrated by the attempts to intimidate the West into limiting one of the freedoms we hold most dear.

Like I said. You put that position out there and I told you my opinion based on what I see in your posts. I'm sorry if that offends you, but it's only my opinion.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 23:35
Why did you feel teh need to single out their skin color? Why was that relevent to your point? I only brought up skin color in response to this post. It had nothing to do with the point at all or anything that had been discussed. The only reason nationality was involved at all before this was to point out that the southern border is the biggest gateway into the US for illegal immigration. You had to bring in skin color. Can't you get beyond the issue of race here?

Actually I brought up skin color because it was a factor in who got what job and clear differentiator in who stayed in the kitchen and who left. It wasn't an occasional issue, but an all the time thing. Many managers like telling me how they had someone dumb enough to think they could be a manager, waitperson or bartender with brown-skin (there words weren't as nice). And in the back of the house, I would constantly hear about how whiteboys couldn't last back there. And, to be fair, they were never wrong. I conveyed my story with some of the elements that were pertinent, including the fact that almost everyone who worked the back of the house were non-englishspeaking brown-skinned immigrants chosen to work back there because of this very trait.

You extrapolated that to be a comment on your person and I simply gave you my opinion on your resultant rant. The person who dragged racism into the conversation was you. The person who keeps in the conversation... also you.

Sounds like a real racist to me...

Saying things that are occasionally not racist or xenophobic doesn't make one not. Your evidence is not convincing.
Jocabia
09-03-2006, 23:37
Also, I've ranted plenty on here about George Bush and about Christian beliefs and their attempts to subvert science classes and they're not all "brown."

Yes, that's very useful. Quick, of your last ten threads how many were focused on latin americans or other people with brown skin? I know the answer. Do you?
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 23:55
Like I said. You put that position out there and I told you my opinion based on what I see in your posts. I'm sorry if that offends you, but it's only my opinion.
So to sum up your opinion is that I'm racist. You have no posts from me or views that I have outlined that are explicitly racist, in other words, no posts that say, "I think we need to get rid of all the darkies," just posts that point out that I think we need more control over immigration and that most illegal immigration comes through the Mexican border. This statement, to you, is equivalent to saying, "if we could just get rid of all the Mexicans." That's not what I meant. When I say that I think we need to have better border enforcment particularily as it relates to the Mexican border what I mean by that is that I think we need to have better border enforcement particularily as it relates to the Mexican border. Race is not the issue. It is illegal aliens getting jobs that I feel should go to American citizens first. Even if they are Hispanic American citizens, BTW. As for the Islam/West clash, again I have never brought up race in any post. I have stuck directly to the aspect that matters most to me, that being teh attempts to intimidate the West into restricting our right to freedom of expression. Though at one point I said I agreed with the sentiment of DCD and his level of frustration, I never made race an issue in the debate at all until you did and only then to point out that the race of the people involved was not what I considered important.

So you think I'm racist but have no direct quotes or posts or any evidence to back that assertion up, just that I have taken a contrary position to yours on issues that happen to involve people with dark skin, which, of course, is not something I brought up except in how it relates to where the bulk of illegal immigration comes from.

Okay. So my racism lives in your interpretations of my posts and not explicitly in any of them.
PsychoticDan
09-03-2006, 23:57
Yes, that's very useful. Quick, of your last ten threads how many were focused on latin americans or other people with brown skin? I know the answer. Do you?
Okay, how about you tell me what I'm allowed to talk about so I wont be perceived as racist anymore. Illegal immigration and the clash between Western values and Islamic valuse are hot topics, I think the hottest here, so I'm gonna miss talking about them, but if I'm racist for having views about them then just tell me what I'm allowed to talk about without being racist.