NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, in responce to all of the ruckus about how "Lincoln was a tyrant" and the "North should secede", I will now propose this question.

Let us say, hypothetically of course, that whether through war or armistice the CSA gained it's independence from the Union. What would the two nations be like today if this scenario were true.

Along with your poll answer, please state your reasoning and describe what these nations would be like.

(Not related: dear God, I'm starting to sound like a history teacher...:eek: )

There is a very good series of novels about this by Harry Turtledove beginning with How Few Remain.

There is a very good series of novels about this by Harry Turtledove beginning with How Few Remain.

You beat me to it.

For a long time after the Civil War, the South was an economic burden on the North, which was home to most of the US population and industry. The north would probably be better off in the Gilded Age period and the South would be much, much worse off. Beyond that, I have no predictions.

Truly the more interesting outcomes would have to deal with the Great War and WW2.

Truly the more interesting outcomes would have to deal with the Great War and WW2.

I actually don't know how that would have turned out. There would obviously be conflicts and distrust for some time between CSA and USA post Civil War, but do you think they'd have to foresight to see the coming storms of World Wars and join to fight against a worse enemy.

I actually don't know how that would have turned out. There would obviously be conflicts and distrust for some time between CSA and USA post Civil War, but do you think they'd have to foresight to see the coming storms of World Wars and join to fight against a worse enemy.
WW1 was less good vs. bad than just side A vs side B. If Britain and France cozied up to the CSA, I see no reason that the United States wouldn't ally themselves with Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire (and the Ottomans).

WW1 was less good vs. bad than just side A vs side B. If Britain and France cozied up to th0e CSA, I see no reason that the United States wouldn't ally themselves with Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire (and the Ottomans).

Jeez...That creates a whole new set of problems right there...

It's hard to speculate, but I have to believe it would have been struggling times for both nations, but like others have said, I think the World Wars would have joined the two like long-lost brothers and differences would have healed, much like the U.S. and England.

WW1 was less good vs. bad than just side A vs side B.
I hope you aren't suggesting that World War II was any different.

Jeez...That creates a whole new set of problems right there...
That is exactly what happened in the book series, which is now up to the point that a figure similar to Hitler has come to power in the CSA.

That is exactly what happened in the book series, which is now up to the point that a figure similar to Hitler has come to power in the CSA.
Because of course that could never happen in the North.:rolleyes:

I hope you aren't suggesting that World War II was any different?
Yes, but WWII was more an instance of the Allies fighting against imperialism and genocide than WWI.

Because of course that could never happen in the North.:rolleyes:
It just so happened that the CSA was on the losing side of WWI in that series. Personally, I find it equally justifiable for such a figure to come to power in the North under the same circumstances.

Yes, but WWII was more an instance of the Allies fighting against imperialism and genocide than WWI.
Have you forgotten that we fought on the same side as Stalin? He is responsible for more deaths than Hitler. Have you forgotten how the allies “neutralized” Dresden? World War II was just another conflict in human history, the biggest I’ll grant, but nothing more. To even remotely suggest that there is anything noble about it is disgusting statist bullshit.

Have you forgotten that we fought on the same side as Stalin? He is responsible for more deaths than Hitler. Have you forgotten how the allies “neutralized” Dresden? World War II was just another conflict in human history, the biggest I’ll grant, but nothing more. To even remotely suggest that there is anything noble about it is disgusting statist bullshit.
I suppose you have a point. WWII was just propagandised better I guess.

I suppose you have a point. WWII was just propagandised better I guess.
Spot on.

What I can see right now is that the South would have come to the quick realization that it would have to overcome the economic disadvantages of being a primarily agricultural society. They would have had to force development of industry or forever be at the economic mercy of the North and other industrialized nations. To this end they would have realized that slavery was just not going to continue to work for them. The slaves would have been "freed" and put in the same position as the wage slaves of the Northern factories.

Between the North and South, there would have been continued competition for Western land. Many of the freed slaves and poor whites, unable to compete for factory jobs, would have gone west and homesteaded, just as they did in our reality. The battles would not have been just between settlers and Indians but between Northern and Southern settlers. It would have been bloody and ugly, but it probably would have cemented good relations between black and white - it's hard to hate the man or woman fighting at your side. The Indians, caught in the crossfire, would have fared badly.

Eventually, the two entities would, I think, reunite in some fashion.