NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=163157

At first glance, Terry Gavin and Pete Kozak seem to have little in common.

Gavin, 51, is a married insurance broker who once served on Elgin’s city council. Kozak, an 18-year-old Buffalo Grove High School senior, is readying himself to head off to the University of Arizona to study engineering.

Different musical tastes, different clothes, different generations.

“I’m expecting to see a bunch of grandparents in lawn chairs,” Kozak joked as he strolled into The Centre of Elgin last weekend.

But Kozak and Gavin agree on at least one thing: They think it’s ridiculous that waves of people, mostly Mexicans, illegally cross the U.S. border each year, and the federal government seems unable, or unwilling, to stop it.

Alright, this is for Americans since it deals an American group and America's illegal immigation 'problem.' Basically I want to know your opinion on what to do with illegal immigration.

Personally I think we need to drastically add more funds to the border patrol and start deporting illegal immigrants now. I am not againts immigration or immigrants, let me make that clear. However, if you don't want to enter the country legally, you don't deserve to get the same rights as Americans or immigrants who came here legally. If don't respect America's laws, leave.

Tell you what--when the US government really starts enforcing laws against companies that knowingly hire illegals, and I mean starts seizing assets and levying huge, punitive fines, then we can talk about how people crossing the border don't respect the laws. They wouldn't be coming here if there weren't people offering them better jobs than they could get back home. But the Minutemen (racist fucks that they are) don't want to believe that perhaps the US is as much to blame as the border-crossers are--it's a lot easier to play the "wetback spic stealing from us" card than it is to admit that US companies are taking advantage of these people, because to do that would require the Minutemen types to acknowledge that these border-crossers are, indeed, people.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=163157



Alright, this is for Americans since it deals an American group and America's illegal immigation 'problem.' Basically I want to know your opinion on what to do with illegal immigration.

Personally I think we need to drastically add more funds to the border patrol and start deporting illegal immigrants now. I am not againts immigration or immigrants, let me make that clear. However, if you don't want to enter the country legally, you don't deserve to get the same rights as Americans or immigrants who came here legally. If don't respect America's laws, leave.

It is a problem easily solved however corporations and politicians do not want it solved. It is as simple as making it illegal to employee illegal aliens under penalty of 1 year in prison for every single count of employing illegal aliens, along with a fine directly proportionate to the amount of taxpayer dollars spent to provide their free education, free healthcare, transportation back to where they came from, meals and lodging while awaiting their return.
Do this and the problem will end immediately.

It's a supply and demand thing. Working-class Americans might be suffering because of illegal immigration, but their socio-economic superiors are raking in the cash by turning a blind eye to the problem. I don't care about ordinary Americans patrolling the border if they really want, because their government and businesses don't give a damn.

It is a problem easily solved however corporations and politicians do not want it solved. It is as simple as making it illegal to employee illegal aliens under penalty of 1 year in prison for every single count of employing illegal aliens, along with a fine directly proportionate to the amount of taxpayer dollars spent to provide their free education, free healthcare, transportation back to where they came from, meals and lodging while awaiting their return.
Do this and the problem will end immediately.
Or you'll get a lot laxer in immigration law. Or workers in the US will start getting better wages for the shit jobs that undocumented workers currently do. You'll also see food prices go up (or profits go down--I'm betting on the former) to make up for the increased wages those industries will be paying. On the other hand, you'll also see an increase in income tax revenue since those workers would be on the books at increased wages.

Or we could just not care about our worse off citizens like Mexico so they wouldn't need to come here. Oh wait, we already do (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=471770). Are you aware of how many illegal immigrants coming to America die each year? During the summer months (April-August) it's well over 300 in southern Arizona alone. I hear about a new body or five found in the desert virtually every day during the summer.

Or you'll get a lot laxer in immigration law. Or workers in the US will start getting better wages for the shit jobs that undocumented workers currently do. You'll also see food prices go up (or profits go down--I'm betting on the former) to make up for the increased wages those industries will be paying. On the other hand, you'll also see an increase in income tax revenue since those workers would be on the books at increased wages.

Without a doubt politicians would try and relax immigration laws, but there would be a price to pay during elections for going on record in support of them. Workers in the US would definately see better wages in much more than shit jobs as illegals are being used in much more than that role. (They do jobs Americans will not take is a huge lie) Profits may go down a bit, but not enough to make an appreciable difference and food prices will not see a great deal of increase as competition from Latin and South American producers already serve to provide a regulatory check. For once since it's inception NAFTA might actually be useful for something other than making the rich richer at the expense of the average individual. I believe in competition, however competition also must be applied to the labor pool or it is nothing more than thinly vailed scam to enable corporations ustilize the population as an expendable resource...(slave labor)

i think its too expensive to do what would really need to be done to keep illegal aliens from crossing the border. i doubt that its worth the effort.

even in places like southern california where they are overwhelmed with undocumented aliens, SOMEONE is hiring them. its well worth the time of these people to go to california to work. if all those people had to pay a living wage, would the economy of california collapse?

i think its too expensive to do what would really need to be done to keep illegal aliens from crossing the border. i doubt that its worth the effort.

even in places like southern california where they are overwhelmed with undocumented aliens, SOMEONE is hiring them. its well worth the time of these people to go to california to work. if all those people had to pay a living wage, would the economy of california collapse?

The threat to California's economy is in the over regulation and huge amount of breaucratic hurdles to be able to operate a successful business. That and the fact that 40% of all businesses there are under their own policies no longer hiring expanding within the state and actively seeking to relocate to other parts of the country.
Without a doubt getting rid of the illegal labor market would be a hit for some sectors of California's economy, but the benefits and savings would counter the current trend in California's decline. Unfortunately however, the illegal aliens in California actually raise the education rankings for California from 50th to 48th in the nation which would probably make it less attractive in the short term for new growth, but you have to start somewhere.

Oh no! The Mexicans are coming to take our janitor, gardener, roof tarrer, fence builder, and fruit picker jobs! We better stop them soon before they start paying taxes and not being able to get the money back.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=163157



Alright, this is for Americans since it deals an American group and America's illegal immigation 'problem.' Basically I want to know your opinion on what to do with illegal immigration.

Personally I think we need to drastically add more funds to the border patrol and start deporting illegal immigrants now. I am not againts immigration or immigrants, let me make that clear. However, if you don't want to enter the country legally, you don't deserve to get the same rights as Americans or immigrants who came here legally. If don't respect America's laws, leave.

Actually, the most effective tool that could be employed in the 'war on illegal immigration', would be a minimum wage. And, not the stupid $5 or whatever... a sensible minimum wage, that is enforced ABSOLUTELY.

It might not be immediately apparent how this would benefit native workers... but the simple fact is, the illegal immigrants LARGELY do the shitty work that 'real Americans' don't want to get their hands dirty with.

So - make a minimum wage at... say $12 per hour. Then Americans WILL pick fruit, and WILL clean offices.


Also - just as a thought.... you know that America wouldn't last more than a couple of weeks if we really DID deport all the non-legals, right? We are THAT dependent on the 'illegal' economy... ESPECIALLY where it matters, in things like food production and agriculture.

Deport all the illegals if you want, but it will be PHENOMENALLY expensive, and then we'll all starve.

This "militia" is just an excuse for the weak minded to pack heat and feel "big and important"...which they aren't, just paranoid and more than a little annoying.

They probably have sexual issues too...

Tell you what--when the US government really starts enforcing laws against companies that knowingly hire illegals, and I mean starts seizing assets and levying huge, punitive fines, then we can talk about how people crossing the border don't respect the laws. They wouldn't be coming here if there weren't people offering them better jobs than they could get back home. But the Minutemen (racist fucks that they are) don't want to believe that perhaps the US is as much to blame as the border-crossers are--it's a lot easier to play the "wetback spic stealing from us" card than it is to admit that US companies are taking advantage of these people, because to do that would require the Minutemen types to acknowledge that these border-crossers are, indeed, people.

Quite so. It's the companies and not the immigrants that are the problem. The minutemen suck.

How many Mexicans make up a "wave?"

Is it like a murder of crows or a school of fish?

Fuck the "Minutemen." I have little respect for self-styled Revolutionary War heroes who can only barely hide their xenophobic border-control-freak paranoia.

What we really need to do is make it into a reality TV show.

"Who wants to be an immigrant?"

We'll have a shitload of obstacles and spike pits and whatnot.

Maybe have a switch to set the Rio Grande on fire, so its like "Ok, folks, hes about half way across, almost there, almost, but noooo... he got the fire."

Tell you what--when the US government really starts enforcing laws against companies that knowingly hire illegals, and I mean starts seizing assets and levying huge, punitive fines, then we can talk about how people crossing the border don't respect the laws. They wouldn't be coming here if there weren't people offering them better jobs than they could get back home. But the Minutemen (racist fucks that they are) don't want to believe that perhaps the US is as much to blame as the border-crossers are--it's a lot easier to play the "wetback spic stealing from us" card than it is to admit that US companies are taking advantage of these people, because to do that would require the Minutemen types to acknowledge that these border-crossers are, indeed, people.
*blinks* *blinks again* And where the fuck did you come up with that poor excuse of a lambasting? Last time I checked, their gripe had absolutely nothing to do with the jobs situation. But I guess that to find that out you would have to get your talking points from elsewhere than people who have a vested interest in badmouthing the group involved. Shut the borders off, and set up a much better processing system for immigrants, including expanded numbers each year as long as they comply with terms of entry, and the minutemen wouldn't have one fucking problem with the people coming over the border.

I think we should make it much easier to immigrate than it currently is. There's no need to have such tough immigration laws -- if American workers can't compete with their Mexican counterparts, then too bad for them.

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

how about we firebomb the offices and homes of those that hire illegal immigrants. maybe some old fashioned vigilante justice against them. maybe even have an illegal immigrant hirer season. hmm I wonder what the bag limit would be on that.

Last time I checked, their gripe had absolutely nothing to do with the jobs situation.
Then pray tell what is their gripe? That they are xenophobic racists and thus hate Mexicans?

Then pray tell what is their gripe? That they are xenophobic racists and thus hate Mexicans?
The Minuteman Pledge

1. A Minuteman upholds the Constitution of the United States of America, and reveres the American Creed that unites us as one people, our Declaration of Independence.

2. A Minuteman knows well America is a nation of immigrants, and realization of our national promise has always relied upon those who come to America from other countries to participate fully, with their children and descendants, as loyal and law-abiding U.S. citizens.

3. A Minuteman believes that just as ethnicity, race, religion and all such factors are incidental and do not affect our God-given, constitutional equality as American citizens, such factors are also irrelevant in the debate over illegal immigration. There is no tolerance among Minutemen for racism or bigotry - E Pluribus Unum - Out of Many, One.

4. A Minuteman believes in a strong, safe and secure America that begins with borders open only to those who have a legal right to enter, and who have met all the lawful criteria to cross into our territory established by the sovereign American people.

5. Minutemen vow to use every legal means at our disposal to assist law enforcement authorities in identifying and apprehending those who violate our borders, whether they are illegally trafficking people, weapons, arms, property, sexual slaves or any other contraband.

6. Minutemen vow to report to the proper authorities any business entity which knowingly recruits, facilitates or employs people who have entered America illegally, or which cooperates in any commercial activity which involves contraband smuggling or marketing of persons, products or materiel.

7. Minutemen promise to raise our voices -- on cellular phones along the borders of America and in the halls of Congress -- in the defense of the rule of law. The American people are firm but fair, and we share their great compassion for the many powerless victims of cruel, illegal human trafficking and labor exploitation. But we also support our citizens' adamant rejection of the blatant disregard for our laws and ordered liberty represented by the U.S. government's failure to secure our borders, enforce our nation's sovereignty and end the flood of illegal trafficking into American territory.

Propagandic trash.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=163157



Alright, this is for Americans since it deals an American group and America's illegal immigation 'problem.' Basically I want to know your opinion on what to do with illegal immigration.

Personally I think we need to drastically add more funds to the border patrol and start deporting illegal immigrants now. I am not againts immigration or immigrants, let me make that clear. However, if you don't want to enter the country legally, you don't deserve to get the same rights as Americans or immigrants who came here legally. If don't respect America's laws, leave.

Toss the illegals out on their ear.

Tell you what--when the US government really starts enforcing laws against companies that knowingly hire illegals, and I mean starts seizing assets and levying huge, punitive fines, then we can talk about how people crossing the border don't respect the laws. They wouldn't be coming here if there weren't people offering them better jobs than they could get back home. But the Minutemen (racist fucks that they are) don't want to believe that perhaps the US is as much to blame as the border-crossers are--it's a lot easier to play the "wetback spic stealing from us" card than it is to admit that US companies are taking advantage of these people, because to do that would require the Minutemen types to acknowledge that these border-crossers are, indeed, people.

How do you know they are racist? You do not know that. And I agree with your opening lines. We should start to enforce those laws as well.

How do you know they are racist? You do not know that. And I agree with your opening lines. We should start to enforce those laws as well.
Because the majority of them think Mexicans are untrustworthy and just cause crime.

This "militia" is just an excuse for the weak minded to pack heat and feel "big and important"...which they aren't, just paranoid and more than a little annoying.

They probably have sexual issues too...

Conduct a little research Bolol. So far, they have not killed anyone using weapons. In fact, the only thing they have done is alert the border patrol of illegals crossing the border.

Also, the Border Patrol applauds these people because they are making the Border Patrol's Jobs easier.

How many Mexicans make up a "wave?"

Is it like a murder of crows or a school of fish?

Fuck the "Minutemen." I have little respect for self-styled Revolutionary War heroes who can only barely hide their xenophobic border-control-freak paranoia.

Proof please of your last line?

Because the majority of them think Mexicans are untrustworthy and just cause crime.

Proof please?

Proof please of your last line?

http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/history.php

That proves they are both Revolutionary wanna-bes but also hold an irrational fear of foreigners, "unwelcome intruders," crossing the border due to overhyped terrorist attacks, the definition of xenophobia.

Proof please?
My proof is untangible because it's my own observations. I live in a town with most of these minutemen and I have to listen to their racist remarks on the news, work and wherever else they start ranting.

On a sidenote: Today, Jim Kolbe with his congressional posse, went down to some border towns and discussed with mexican officials how to solve the immigration problem. They both agreed that it should be a joint effort, not just a bunch of racist, right-wing over-zealous gun-nuts patrolling the border.

http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/history.php

That proves they are both Revolutionary wanna-bes but also hold an irrational fear of foreigners, "unwelcome intruders," crossing the border due to overhyped terrorist attacks, the definition of xenophobia.

Those unwelcome intruders being people who are entering this country illegally. They see these people coming across the border and they call the border patrol to report it and the illegals are picked up.

Nothing wrong here so how is stopping illegal immigrants being xenophobic?

Conduct a little research Bolol. So far, they have not killed anyone using weapons. In fact, the only thing they have done is alert the border patrol of illegals crossing the border.

Also, the Border Patrol applauds these people because they are making the Border Patrol's Jobs easier.

I know that they haven't killed anyone, because I know that if they did, all kinds of shit would hit numerous fans.

I'm always skeptical when civilians (usually untrained) take it upon themselves to "be the man".

I know that they haven't killed anyone, because I know that if they did, all kinds of shit would hit numerous fans.

I'm always skeptical when civilians (usually untrained) take it upon themselves to "be the man".

And yet the Border patrol loves these people. That should say something right there.

And yet the Border patrol loves these people. That should say something right there.

Of course, they're doing their jobs for them. God forbid someone work for a living.

Of course, they're doing their jobs for them. God forbid someone work for a living.

Actually.....the Border Patrol and the Minutemen have actually teamed up. The Minutemen report the border breaches to the B.P. and the B.P. actually pick them up.

Also, the illegals seem to be getting smarter in that regard but when they tried to do an end run behind the Minutemen, the Border patrol were right there waiting for the illegals to come to them.

Amazing how team work actually does.

Actually.....the Border Patrol and the Minutemen have actually teamed up. The Minutemen report the border breaches to the B.P. and the B.P. actually pick them up.

Also, the illegals seem to be getting smarter in that regard but when they tried to do an end run behind the Minutemen, the Border patrol were right there waiting for the illegals to come to them.

Amazing how team work actually does.

I will always remain skeptical. Sanctioned or not, it still smells like vigilante justice.

I will always remain skeptical. Sanctioned or not, it still smells like vigilante justice.
And you should. I have to deal with these minutemen firsthand, and it's not always pleasant.

Those unwelcome intruders being people who are entering this country illegally. They see these people coming across the border and they call the border patrol to report it and the illegals are picked up.

Nothing wrong here so how is stopping illegal immigrants being xenophobic?
Their overall attitude towards them, as seen in various article, shows they have a xenophobic contempt for the immigrants.

Their overall attitude towards them, as seen in various article, shows they have a xenophobic contemp for the immigrants.
I couldn't agree more.

Their overall attitude towards them, as seen in various article, shows they have a xenophobic contempt for the immigrants.

I've read them so prove the xenophobia.

I've read them so prove the xenophobia.
here's a nice article you might enjoy.

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=3188000&nav=14RTYTLb

I've read them so prove the xenophobia.
Xenophobes arn't going to listen to accusations of xenophobia, backed up or not.

Xenophobes arn't going to listen to accusations of xenophobia, backed up or not.

In other words, you have no proof. Thanks though.

In other words, you have no proof. Thanks though.
You didn't quite get my insinuation. I didn't insinuate I had no proof, I insinuated you were a xenophobe.

here's a nice article you might enjoy.

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=3188000&nav=14RTYTLb

I will say this, it isn't a bad article.

You didn't quite get my insinuation. I didn't insinuate I had no proof, I insinuated you were a xenophobe.

In other words, you have no proof.

I'm sorry that I'm one of those law abiding citizens who want to see our borders secured.

I will be very honest here and say that I have been avoiding this thread since I first saw it.. but I finally broke down and read it.. and I have to congratulate all of you on having a mature and intelligent discussion about a hotbutton issue.. now if you could just teach the rest of the country to do the same.

:fluffle: Thanks again

I will be very honest here and say that I have been avoiding this thread since I first saw it.. but I finally broke down and read it.. and I have to congratulate all of you on having a mature and intelligent discussion about a hotbutton issue.. now if you could just teach the rest of the country to do the same.

:fluffle: Thanks again
I've had a surprisingly high number of rational debates today,this being the least of which to tell the truth. I was thinking that myself. I have, however had some pretty fruitless debates today as well. :(

I've had a surprisingly high number of rational debates today,this being the least of which to tell the truth. I was thinking that myself. I have, however had some pretty fruitless debates today as well. :(

We all have fruitless debates but this was a very rational debate if you take out teh_pantless_hero part of it.

*blinks* *blinks again* And where the fuck did you come up with that poor excuse of a lambasting? Last time I checked, their gripe had absolutely nothing to do with the jobs situation. But I guess that to find that out you would have to get your talking points from elsewhere than people who have a vested interest in badmouthing the group involved. Shut the borders off, and set up a much better processing system for immigrants, including expanded numbers each year as long as they comply with terms of entry, and the minutemen wouldn't have one fucking problem with the people coming over the border.
The Minutemen are closely connected with the Aryan Nation groups, and have a history of racially inflammatory rhetoric. Sorry if that bursts your bubble, but it's a fact, and has been reported on extensively.

Edit: Just figured I'd add in a little backup for my statement there (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html). I especially like the photo. Here, I'll post it for you.

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally-792199.jpg

They're racist fucks, and there's no two ways about it.

And yet the Border patrol loves these people. That should say something right there.
Yeah, the Border Patrol loves (http://radio.ksl.com/index.php?sid=182180&nid=19) these people.
Federal Border Patrol agents say they wish the Minutemen vollunteering to patrol the border with Mexico would go home.

Spokesman Jose Maheda says the Minutemen are triggering sensors in the ground that are designed to catch undocumented workers.

"...and now an agent has to go and check on that sensor, and it's just one of these guys walking around activating it. That is just taking away from an agent's primary focus of defending our border."

Maheda says agents also have to worry about protecting Minutemen from violent crossers. He says 18,000 caught in the last six months have criminal records in the U.S.

He says his agents carry assault rifles for a reason. 51-percent of illegals caught in the US last year crossed the border in Arizona.

Yeah, the Border Patrol loves (http://radio.ksl.com/index.php?sid=182180&nid=19) these people.

And w/ this:

"He says 18,000 caught in the last six months have criminal records in the U.S.

He says his agents carry assault rifles for a reason."



...Illegal immigration should NOT be stopped?

The Minutemen are closely connected with the Aryan Nation groups, and have a history of racially inflammatory rhetoric. Sorry if that bursts your bubble, but it's a fact, and has been reported on extensively.

Edit: Just figured I'd add in a little backup for my statement there (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html). I especially like the photo. Here, I'll post it for you.

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally-792199.jpg

They're racist fucks, and there's no two ways about it.

Why? Because they have a confederate battle flag?

And w/ this:

"He says 18,000 caught in the last six months have criminal records in the U.S.

He says his agents carry assault rifles for a reason."



...Illegal immigration should NOT be stopped?
That was way out in left field. I don't think you are even playing the same game. We are playing football. You don't play baseball on a football field.

Why? Because they have a confederate battle flag?
Well, there's that, and if you look real carefully at the guy on the far left side of the photo, you'll see a swastika on his flag, and he's doing the Nazi salute. Plus, listen to their rhetoric and examine it--you won't, because you're a closed-minded little twerp, Corneliu, but I'm giving you the chance once again--and you'll see the overt racism in what they say.

But you're too busy lapping up the right-wing talking points to give a shit anyway, and you've never let reality challenge your viewpoint before, so why start now?

Why? Because they have a confederate battle flag?
Two Confederate battle flags by the look of it, at least two skinheads and a half-dozen of them giving the cameraman the ol' Nazi salute.

Or do you normally just glance haphazardly at the images that present themselves to you?

Why? Because they have a confederate battle flag?

um, look at the hand gesture being given

Quite so. It's the companies and not the immigrants that are the problem. The minutemen suck.
Let me explain to you how this works: you see, the corporations finance Team America, and then Team America goes out... and the corporations sit there in their... in their corporation buildings, and... and, and see, they're all corporation-y... and they make money.

And w/ this:

"He says 18,000 caught in the last six months have criminal records in the U.S.

He says his agents carry assault rifles for a reason."



...Illegal immigration should NOT be stopped?
I put my plan to stop illegal immigration on the first freaking page of this thread. You want to take me on, you take that on first.

um, look at the hand gesture being given
There is also that Mexican flag with a red circle around it and the obviously present cross through it unseen because of the photo size.

Well, there's that, and if you look real carefully at the guy on the far left side of the photo, you'll see a swastika on his flag, and he's doing the Nazi salute. Plus, listen to their rhetoric and examine it--you won't, because you're a closed-minded little twerp, Corneliu, but I'm giving you the chance once again--and you'll see the overt racism in what they say.

But you're too busy lapping up the right-wing talking points to give a shit anyway, and you've never let reality challenge your viewpoint before, so why start now?

Ok, I missed the nazi flag. That flag is uncalled for and I do not condone those types of people. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

Ok, I missed the nazi flag. That flag is uncalled for and I do not condone those types of people. Thank you for pointing it out to me.
So what you're saying is that ******-hating Neo-Confederates are okay, but Jew-hating Neo-Nazis aren't? How enlightened of you.

So what you're saying is that ******-hating Neo-Confederates are okay, but Jew-hating Neo-Nazis aren't? How enlightened of you.

Actually, I do not associate the Confederate Battle Flag to stand for racism and most historians don't either.

And FYI, I have many Black friends.

So what you're saying is that ******-hating Neo-Confederates are okay, but Jew-hating Neo-Nazis aren't? How enlightened of you.

why can't those concerned about the jewish menace stick to that, and leave the legitimate negro and spic hating to the respectable white citizens?

here's a nice article you might enjoy.

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=3188000&nav=14RTYTLb
And yet, they don't actually post the video of these people saying these things.

also :

A lady on Hidden cam says, "We don't want the press to find out where the information is being handed out because we'll have CNN and FOX and yeah."

They're controlling what you hear, from why some of these volunteers "really" came to southern Arizona:

John says, "If the border's gone, they're going to be pushing drugs on every one of our kids at school." To problems the organizers are having controlling the extremists who showed up.

John says, "The guys up here, on what we were talking about earlier on Mountain View, with the shotguns and the flag and lighting the fire. And lighting a fire on G-----n BLM land."

To get the real story, we went undercover, camping and patrolling with the Minuteman volunteers. We blended in because we had signed up as volunteers ourselves.

A woman on our Hidden Cam says, " Noon and four.. Chris will give you your assignments - probably walk you in to the spot."

Our "spot" is at the base of the Huachuca Mountains, on the side of a state highway, just south of Sierra Vista. Along with instructions on what to do if our group spots illegal immigrants, we're told something else over and over.

One man says, "Don't be talking to the press. They'll misconstrue things.. not all of them, but we don't know which ones will and which ones won't."

Given the general track record of the MsM they do tend to misconstrue things, chop quotes, and in many cases outright lie. As for limiting the extremists, every group has them, or what do you think the Black Bloc and the DUers are to the lefties?

I put my plan to stop illegal immigration on the first freaking page of this thread. You want to take me on, you take that on first.

Defensive, aren't we?

I wasn't "taking you on", I apologize if it seemed that way. I agree w/ punishing the companies that hire illegals. I also support the Minutemen even though they have some bad apples. Those can be cored. I also think we need to get rid of all the "sanctuary" laws that prevent police from arresting known illegals.

gotcha.

And yet, they don't actually post the video of these people saying these things.
I remeber they showed some video when they aired that story, but it's not like they could actually get formal interviews in front of the camera.

As for limiting the extremists, every group has them, or what do you think the Black Bloc and the DUers are to the lefties?

oddly enough, this is sort of comprable actually. like the anti-neoliberal protests, where the whole project is essentially arising out of the radical libertarian milieu and organizing, the minuteman project is a direct outgrowth of explicitly racist white nationalist organizing that's been going on for decades.

Actually, I do not associate the Confederate Battle Flag to stand for racism and most historians don't either.

And FYI, I have many Black friends.It's not the historians who are the fucking problem, Corny--it's the racist fucks like those in that picture who have appropriated that flag to represent their racism. The swastika wasn't originally a sign for Nazism and anti-Semitism either, but it has been corrupted by those groups so that it means practically nothing else. Whether you and historians think the Confederate Battle Flag isn't racist or is means the square root of jack-fuck-all--the racists have appropriated it as their own, and it now is inextricably linked with racism.

Actually, I do not associate the Confederate Battle Flag to stand for racism and most historians don't either.
Exactly, it is context. And this context it was being used to stand for racial superiority.

Actually, I do not associate the Confederate Battle Flag to stand for racism and most historians don't either.

And FYI, I have many Black friends.
Well, I've known some young Jain men who were at times very very angry about how the Nazis had misappropriated their symbol, the swastika, and how they'd made it a worldwide symbol of hatred. They didn't think of the symbol that way, but they understood that whatever that symbol might once have been, that it had come to represent something terrible instead.

The use of the Confederate battle flag has become the stuff of white supremacist culture. It stands, in context, for racism in the current day.

Alright, this is for Americans since it deals an American group and America's illegal immigation 'problem.' Basically I want to know your opinion on what to do with illegal immigration.


Illegal immigration will begin to stop once Central and South America are as economically developed and prosperous as the United States (Edit: stable and competitive democratic governments would help also).

Until then, resistance is futile. Not impossible, actually, but I'd rather the Berlin Wall stay in the past.


If don't respect America's laws, leave.


What if I'm a citizen? :)

It's not the historians who are the fucking problem, Corny--it's the racist fucks like those in that picture who have appropriated that flag to represent their racism. The swastika wasn't originally a sign for Nazism and anti-Semitism either, but it has been corrupted by those groups so that it means practically nothing else. Whether you and historians think the Confederate Battle Flag isn't racist or is means the square root of jack-fuck-all--the racists have appropriated it as their own, and it now is inextricably linked with racism.
Ahh, this reminds of the good days with Lyric...

Well, I've known some young Jain men who were at times very very angry about how the Nazis had misappropriated their symbol, the swastika, and how they'd made it a worldwide symbol of hatred. They didn't think of the symbol that way, but they understood that whatever that symbol might once have been, that it had come to represent something terrible instead.

The use of the Confederate battle flag has become the stuff of white supremacist culture. It stands, in context, for racism in the current day.

Which is sad really. Thank the Lord that there are people who actually know that the Jain had their symbols misused and that the Confederate Battle Flag was just that, A battle flag. I have the Confederate National Flag AND the Battle Flag in my room back at my house. Right next to the American Flag.

It's not the historians who are the fucking problem, Corny--it's the racist fucks like those in that picture who have appropriated that flag to represent their racism.

Cut down on the swearing. It does nothing for your arguement.

The swastika wasn't originally a sign for Nazism and anti-Semitism either, but it has been corrupted by those groups so that it means practically nothing else.

Correct. And historians have made that case till they turned blue in the face. There was even a documentary of this fact and I even watched it.

Whether you and historians think the Confederate Battle Flag isn't racist or is means the square root of jack-fuck-all--the racists have appropriated it as their own, and it now is inextricably linked with racism.

And that is why we are losing the civil war heritage of this country.

I have the Confederate National Flag AND the Battle Flag in my room back at my house. Right next to the American Flag.

and like it or not, you are participating in the symbolism of racism, and anyone would be perfectly justified in thinking you a nazi fucktard.

Which is sad really. Thank the Lord that there are people who actually know that the Jain had their symbols misused and that the Confederate Battle Flag was just that, A battle flag. I have the Confederate National Flag AND the Battle Flag in my room back at my house. Right next to the American Flag.
That's still like having a giant swastika flag outside your house. Whether you're displaying it because of its original meaning, or because you are indeed a Nazi, people aren't going to know the difference and will most likely assume the latter. But, freedom of expression...

Cut down on the swearing. It does nothing for your arguement.Fuck you, you fucking fuck.

But you knew that was coming. And it's awful rich to hear you lecture me about making a strong argument, you who runs in the face of contrary evidence on a daily fucking basis.

Correct. And historians have made that case till they turned blue in the face. There was even a documentary of this fact and I even watched it.
You want a cookie or something? So if you know so much, why did you act to nonchalant about the fact that those people in the picture had Confederate flags? Or do you just assume that everyone who carries around a Confederate Battle Flag is as "enlightened" as you are?

And that is why we are losing the civil war heritage of this country.
We are in absolutely no danger of losing that heritage. We live with it every fucking day of our lives.

Why not just let them come?
We need peons. How else are we to compete with China?

and like it or not, you are participating in the symbolism of racism, and anyone would be perfectly justified in thinking you a nazi fucktard.

:rolleyes:

Does it also matter that I have the Polish flag in the same coffee cup? I also have the US flag, NATO flag, EU flag, USAF Flag, UN Flag, and the Christian Flag here ontop of my Television set in my dorm room.

I'm a flag collector dude.

And that is why we are losing the civil war heritage of this country.Sure we mustn't forget it, and that's why we learn about it in school. Just like we learn about WWII and the holocaust, which I'm quite sure the Germans wouldn't really mind losing from their heritage. But by endorsing the cival war heritage, you are in effect, endorsing slavery. That's how most people would see it, anyways.

Fuck you, you fucking fuck.Ah, now I really miss those days with Lyric. Seriously, Nazz. Please, calm down.

Fuck you, you fucking fuck.

Very childish. And I do mean childish.

But you knew that was coming. And it's awful rich to hear you lecture me about making a strong argument, you who runs in the face of contrary evidence on a daily fucking basis.

Now your just trying to get me mad and it ain't going to work.

You want a cookie or something? So if you know so much, why did you act to nonchalant about the fact that those people in the picture had Confederate flags? Or do you just assume that everyone who carries around a Confederate Battle Flag is as "enlightened" as you are?

Did you know that the Confederate Battle Flag were used as bandana's or to show that you are rebelious?

We are in absolutely no danger of losing that heritage. We live with it every fucking day of our lives.

*snorts* yes we are losing it because Southern War Museums are being forced to take down the Confederate Flag that is being flown to the left of the American Flag. Museum Curators are livid over this.

And that is why we are losing the civil war heritage of this country.
Yes, we need to remember everyday that the Negro is not equal to us white folk and them there Yankees are no good sons of a bitch.

Sure we mustn't forget it, and that's why we learn about it in school. Just like we learn about WWII and the holocaust, which I'm quite sure the Germans wouldn't really mind losing from their heritage. But by endorsing the cival war heritage, you are in effect, endorsing slavery. That's how most people would see it, anyways.

You can't learn all of it in School Achtung.

You can't learn all of it in School Achtung.
So? The Internet is a wonderful resource. So are old fashioned libraries. And Ken Burn's PBS series. Written by Ken Burns. Produced by Ken Burns. Narrated by Ken Burns. Photography by Ken Burns ;)

So? The Internet is a wonderful resource. So are old fashioned libraries. And Ken Burn's PBS series. Written by Ken Burns. Produced by Ken Burns. Narrated by Ken Burns. Photography by Ken Burns ;)

LOL! I'll go with the History Channel thank you! :D

Tell you what--when the US government really starts enforcing laws against companies that knowingly hire illegals, and I mean starts seizing assets and levying huge, punitive fines, then we can talk about how people crossing the border don't respect the laws. They wouldn't be coming here if there weren't people offering them better jobs than they could get back home. But the Minutemen (racist fucks that they are) don't want to believe that perhaps the US is as much to blame as the border-crossers are--it's a lot easier to play the "wetback spic stealing from us" card than it is to admit that US companies are taking advantage of these people, because to do that would require the Minutemen types to acknowledge that these border-crossers are, indeed, people.
http://static.flickr.com/42/79625230_b0347a8f8b_o.jpg

Very childish. And I do mean childish.
Like I care what you think

Now your just trying to get me mad and it ain't going to work.No, I'm just describing your M.O. Whenever you're faced with contrary evidence that shatters your held postion, you disappear out of the thread for three or four pages then reappear and act as though you've never been challenged. You're a joke because of that, Corny, but I'll give you this much--much like the greatest right-wing pundits, you never let reality get in the way of your strongly held beliefs.

Did you know that the Confederate Battle Flag were used as bandana's or to show that you are rebelious?Yep, and it's just as stupid and racist then.

*snorts* yes we are losing it because Southern War Museums are being forced to take down the Confederate Flag that is being flown to the left of the American Flag. Museum Curators are livid over this.
Prove it. Show a single case where a private museum has been forced by the government to remove the Confederate Battle Flag. Prove it, or shut the hell up.

I've heard it often said that the so-called "Minutemen," and border-control freaks in general, are just law-abiding citizens who wish to help combat crime.

So where are these righteous crimefighters when I cross the street illegally? Where are they when I drive over the speed limit?

Fact is, it's NOT just about them loving and wanting to protect the law. It's about the territorial imperative. It's about xenophobia. It's about them Messicans who are invading and stealin' our jobs and livin' in our neighborhoods.

I've heard it often said that the so-called "Minutemen," and border-control freaks in general, are just law-abiding citizens who wish to help combat crime.

So where are these righteous crimefighters when I cross the street illegally? Where are they when I drive over the speed limit?

Fact is, it's NOT just about them loving and wanting to protect the law. It's about the territorial imperative. It's about xenophobia. It's about them Messicans who are invading and stealin' our jobs and livin' in our neighborhoods.
Exactly. There is so much other crime in my town, yet these border patrol and minutemen people don't care about cracking down on the white doctor who ordered some guy to kill a rival docter. I live not too far from a border patrol station, and they're always in their giant border patrol SUVs still driving a lot faster than the speed limit. I have to drive past this uber-conservative house every day that has a border patrol truck always just sitting outside their house. Right next to their H2. I am not kidding. And just last week, as I drove past, I saw they had some mexican company building them a wall going around their property, and the owners were standing there watching them the entire time, like they'd vandalize their yard just because they're Mexican! Friggin racists, geeze. [/rant] Thank you.

Then pray tell what is their gripe? That they are xenophobic racists and thus hate Mexicans?

It is easy to claim that those opposed to illegal immigration, or those who want to strenghten border protection, are "xenophobic racists," however the issue is actually far more complex.

While taking a class on Mexican American politics this quarter, I read the book Walls and Mirrors: Mexican Americans, Mexican Immigrants, and the Politics of Ethnicity by David G. Gutiérrez. In it, Gutiérrez demonstrates that much of the anti-immigration sentiment since 1848-49 has, in fact, been motovated by xenophobia and racism. However, he also demonstrates that Mexican Americans also played (and continue to play) a role in anti-immigration political rhetoric. Like other U.S. Citizens, many Mexican Americans raised a multitude of concerns, like having to compete for jobs. Many early Mexican American political organizations (League of United Latin American Citizens, American G.I. Forum) called for assimilation, use of English, and often for restrictions on immigration. It is important to note, though, that while these organizations often took anti-immigration positions, they were not anti-immigrant and over time increasingly called for the protection of rights and liberties for those immigrants who were already (Edit: in the United States).

Are there people out there who base their opposition to immigration on xenophobia and racism? Of course. But the history described above shows that this need not necessarily be the case. Plenty of people of the same ethnic and national descent as immigrants have opposed that immigration, legal or otherwise, for many of the same reasons usually given, like jobs, rule of law, etc. Thus, it is probably best to refrain from the name calling and instead try to analyze the situation in a little more depth.

At any rate, there are far more convincing ways to oppose the anti-immigration movements that don't ultimately result in flamewar. The reality of economic globalization, the fact that people will continue to seek out economic opportunity regardless of efforts to stop them, and the inherent immorality in trying to stop them are good places to start.

It is easy to claim that those opposed to illegal immigration, or those who want to strenghten border protection, are "xenophobic racists," however the issue is actually far more complex.

While taking a class on Mexican American politics this quarter, I read the book Walls and Mirrors: Mexican Americans, Mexican Immigrants, and the Politics of Ethnicity by David G. Gutiérrez. In it, Gutiérrez demonstrates that much of the anti-immigration sentiment since 1848-49 has, in fact, been motovated by xenophobia and racism. However, he also demonstrates that Mexican Americans also played (and continue to play) a role in anti-immigration political rhetoric. Like other U.S. Citizens, many Mexican Americans raised a multitude of concerns, like having to compete for jobs. Many early Mexican American political organizations (League of United Latin American Citizens, American G.I. Forum) called for assimilation, use of English, and often for restrictions on immigration. It is important to note, though, that while these organizations often took anti-immigration positions, they were not anti-immigrant and over time increasingly called for the protection of rights and liberties for those immigrants who were already (Edit: in the United States).

Are there people out there who base their opposition to immigration on xenophobia and racism? Of course. But the history described above shows that this need not necessarily be the case. Plenty of people of the same ethnic and national descent as immigrants have opposed that immigration, legal or otherwise, for many of the same reasons usually given, like jobs, rule of law, etc. Thus, it is probably best to refrain from the name calling and instead try to analyze the situation in a little more depth.

At any rate, there are far more convincing ways to oppose the anti-immigration movements that don't ultimately result in flamewar. The reality of economic globalization, the fact that people will continue to seek out economic opportunity regardless of efforts to stop them, and the inherent immorality in trying to stop them are good places to start.
You're correct in the abstract, but this thread isn't so much about immigration as it is about the Minutemen, and in discussing the Minutemen, you can't dissociate the racist and xenophobic rhetoric from the topic in general.

There have been other threads on the topic of immigration, and I'm always far more calm in those threads, because there are excellent reasons to revisit current US immigration law, including arguments to restrict immigration (not very good ones, in my view, but legitimate ones).

But this thread is about the Minutemen, so it's necessarily about race and xenophobia, and there's no getting around that.

I've heard it often said that the so-called "Minutemen," and border-control freaks in general, are just law-abiding citizens who wish to help combat crime.

So where are these righteous crimefighters when I cross the street illegally? Where are they when I drive over the speed limit?


I don't expect the guy guarding the nearby jewelry store to to hand out tickets to jaywalkers. Likewise, I don't expect the county sherrifs to role out the SWAT team if someone drives over the speed limit.

Law enforcement, public or private, is composed of specialized units that are made to deal with specific problems and situations. Why should a volunteer border patrol organization be expected to behave any different.

(I do not defend the so-called "minutemen," I simply mean to point out what I think is faulty reasoning)

I don't expect the guy guarding the nearby jewelry store to to hand out tickets to jaywalkers. Likewise, I don't expect the county sherrifs to role out the SWAT team if someone drives over the speed limit.

Law enforcement, public or private, is composed of specialized units that are made to deal with specific problems and situations. Why should a volunteer border patrol organization be expected to behave any different.

(I do not defend the so-called "minutemen," I simply mean to point out what I think is faulty reasoning)

The guy guarding the nearby jewelry store is hired by the store. The county sherrifs DO work with the SWAT guys if necessary, but of course using them for a speed limit violation is what you call overkill.

On the other hand, I find it interesting how the same people who argue so vehemently about "illegals" - not just the border control 'organizations' mind you, but their vocal supporters - are silent when it comes to crimes committed by, ya know, "legal" human beings. They save their passion for border control because the border is, psychologically, their weak flank of which they are most insecure. (Hence the need to dehumanize immigrants as being "illegals," as if the people are not merely immigrating illegally, but they are themselves inherently illegal.)

If *law* is the prime motivation for these people, I expect them to be self-righteous and wrathful whenever some drunk redneck asshole kills a busload of people on the highway. But no. They never are. But some Mexican takes a shit in a strawberry field? Oh, it's PROOF that "illegals" (nevermind if the Mexican in particular WAS an illegal immigrant!) are dirty, smelly, criminals who just cross the border to pollute our white nation.

Go on, tell me I'm wrong, but we all saw the picture of the guy with the nazi salute. Racism DOES play a part in the border control drama. But a bigger part is xenophobia. Territoriality. An instinct common enough that it's no surprise when you point out that there may be Mexican immigrants who are strongly supportive of border control.

Everyone's paranoid about their ass in the shower. And when you have "waves" of Mexicans crossing the border, well, that's a shower.

Illegal Immigration and Terrorism is a huge problem this nation will have to face. At the moment, without significantly raising taxes, it is impossible to be able to fund a productive border police force. Private Citizens have taken it into their hands to protect our borders on both the Canadian and Mexican sides to make sure no one smuggles anything (Humans or Weapons) over the border. They help the ATF in the war on drugs as shipments constantly are streamed over the Mexican Border.

However, it is the U.S.'s job to get tougher, as these men and women will not be able to volunteer their whole lives out on the front.

And so long as the MinuteMen are more like :upyours: and less like :mp5: :sniper: I have absolutley no problem with the minutemen

But this thread is about the Minutemen, so it's necessarily about race and xenophobia, and there's no getting around that.


The original post seems to reference the Minutemen only in order to set up a more general question:


Alright, this is for Americans since it deals an American group and America's illegal immigation 'problem.' Basically I want to know your opinion on what to do with illegal immigration.


Thus, the subject of this thread appears to be about illegal immigration in general. As such, I invoke history to demonstrate that the issue is not as simple or clear cut as either side likes to claim.

On the other hand, I find it interesting how the same people who argue so vehemently about "illegals" - not just the border control 'organizations' mind you, but their vocal supporters - are silent when it comes to crimes committed by, ya know, "legal" human beings.


Are they "silent," or do they simply choose to focus their resources on a specific problem, just like regular law enforcement focuses different resources on different problems?


Oh, it's PROOF that "illegals" (nevermind if the Mexican in particular WAS an illegal immigrant!) are dirty, smelly, criminals who just cross the border to pollute our white nation.


Actually, the tendency of Americans to see no difference between U.S. citizens of Mexican descent and Mexican immigrants is one of the factors Gutiérrez (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10534545&postcount=92) points out as contributing to anti-immigration sentiments among those citizens. Reactions against racism ended up producing anti-immigration rhetoric. Again, politics is a very complex phenomenon.


Racism DOES play a part in the border control drama.


Of course it does. But it is only one part and it is a part that need not necessarily be invoked in order to oppose immigration.

At the moment, without significantly raising taxes, it is impossible to be able to fund a productive border police force.

A far more effective solution to terrorism would be not marching our armies across the planet, thereby not giving people a reason to hate the United States ( :eek:!!!! :D )

Plus, money saved on the resulting cut in the defense budget could be spend on border protection, probably without having to raise taxes (maybe even while cutting taxes, considering how incredibly huge the defense budget is).

Money saved could also be used to streamline and simplify the immigration and naturalization process. According to Louis DeSipio, in Counting on the Latino Vote: Latinos as a New Electorate, majorities in the Latino population of the United States want to naturalize and become citizens, but are discouraged by the cost and confusing application process. This fact also shoots a rather gigantic hole in the claims of some in the anti-immigration movement that immigrants seek no connection with or do not care about the United States.

Tell you what--when the US government really starts enforcing laws against companies that knowingly hire illegals, and I mean starts seizing assets and levying huge, punitive fines, then we can talk about how people crossing the border don't respect the laws. They wouldn't be coming here if there weren't people offering them better jobs than they could get back home. But the Minutemen (racist fucks that they are) don't want to believe that perhaps the US is as much to blame as the border-crossers are--it's a lot easier to play the "wetback spic stealing from us" card than it is to admit that US companies are taking advantage of these people, because to do that would require the Minutemen types to acknowledge that these border-crossers are, indeed, people.

I agree that the US should enforce the laws more aggressively, you have a point there... but that's a pretty sweeping generalization you've made there. Care to back that up with some evidence?

Actually, the most effective tool that could be employed in the 'war on illegal immigration', would be a minimum wage. And, not the stupid $5 or whatever... a sensible minimum wage, that is enforced ABSOLUTELY.

It might not be immediately apparent how this would benefit native workers... but the simple fact is, the illegal immigrants LARGELY do the shitty work that 'real Americans' don't want to get their hands dirty with.

So - make a minimum wage at... say $12 per hour. Then Americans WILL pick fruit, and WILL clean offices.


Also - just as a thought.... you know that America wouldn't last more than a couple of weeks if we really DID deport all the non-legals, right? We are THAT dependent on the 'illegal' economy... ESPECIALLY where it matters, in things like food production and agriculture.

Deport all the illegals if you want, but it will be PHENOMENALLY expensive, and then we'll all starve.

that's the most insane idea I've ever heard. You realize, then, that high school kids woking at McDonalds would be making $12 an hour. Not only would that destroy our economy, but it's just plain stupid. The minimum wage serves to keep people working at less than a living wage...it should be eliminated. Then, employers could pay part time high schoool kids less and could afford to pay others more. The market will serve to ensure that employers don't try to pay anyone 50 cents an hour because no one would work there.

At the local Burger King, the starting wage is $7 an hour. Why would any fast-food employer pay anyone more than the minimum wage, you ask? Because no one would work there if they didn't. It's the illegals that keep the wages where they get jobs down, not the other way around. They are paid so low because they're willing to work so low. the solution is to help foster a better economy in Mexico so they don't have a reason to come here.

Then, employers could pay part time high schoool kids less and could afford to pay others more.
Yeah, the CEOs.

The market will serve to ensure that employers don't try to pay anyone 50 cents an hour because no one would work there.
Not if it happened everywhere simultaneously.

Because the majority of them think Mexicans are untrustworthy and just cause crime.

About 15% of the illegals coming across the southern border are criminals and gang-types. Although it's not proper to paint them all with the same brush, it does make sence to try to keep them all out rather than deal with the 15%.

http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/history.php

That proves they are both Revolutionary wanna-bes but also hold an irrational fear of foreigners, "unwelcome intruders," crossing the border due to overhyped terrorist attacks, the definition of xenophobia.

they are "unwlcome intruders". They are criminals who are breaking the law. We can debate whether the law is just or not, but the fact remains that in the eyes of the law, they ARE unwelcome intruders".

they are "unwlcome intruders". They are criminals who are breaking the law. We can debate whether the law is just or not, but the fact remains that in the eyes of the law, they ARE unwelcome intruders".
The Minutemen are the law now?

here's a nice article you might enjoy.

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=3188000&nav=14RTYTLb

I read that whole article very critically, and found no envidence of xenophobia. Would you care to point it out?

Yeah, the CEOs.


Not if it happened everywhere simultaneously.

True, but I don't see hoe it would. It's not like turning off a faucet.

The Minutemen are the law now?

No, more like the neighborhood watch. They report to the BP when they see a border infraction.

The Minutemen are closely connected with the Aryan Nation groups, and have a history of racially inflammatory rhetoric. Sorry if that bursts your bubble, but it's a fact, and has been reported on extensively.

Edit: Just figured I'd add in a little backup for my statement there (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html). I especially like the photo. Here, I'll post it for you.

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/Minutemen%20rally-792199.jpg

They're racist fucks, and there's no two ways about it.

Somhow I'll bet that these guys aren't sanctioned or supported by the Minutemen. This was in Laguna Beach, right? Florida. Not Arizona, or Texas, or New Mexico, or California. I'd rather see some evidence from a non-biased source.

True, but I don't see hoe it would. It's not like turning off a faucet.
No, it's like turning on one. Businesses would all simultaneously drop wages by large percentages.

Somhow I'll bet that these guys aren't sanctioned or supported by the Minutemen. This was in Laguna Beach, right? Florida. Not Arizona, or Texas, or New Mexico, or California. I'd rather see some evidence from a non-biased source.
Florida my ass. The backdrop is the same as the ones in Minutemen photos.
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/pictures.php

I read that whole article very critically, and found no envidence of xenophobia. Would you care to point it out?
"If the border's gone, they're going to be pushing drugs on every one of our kids at school."
Marc says, "You walk into a McDonald's and you wake up and realize the entire third world is here."
This Tucson resident tells us he doesn't like what Mexicans do to his neighborhood.
This couple from Georgia tells us they believe their small town is being invaded. Hope that's enough for now...

I note, with no small amount of glee, that the Nazz' observation has been proven correct. I'll look forward to seeing the flag-collector/amateur historian/journalism student/former meteorology expert/military insider known as Corneliu several pages from now. Oops, I forgot to include "budding statesman". There's one for your over-indulged ego, Cornholio.

Tell you what--when the US government really starts enforcing laws against companies that knowingly hire illegals, and I mean starts seizing assets and levying huge, punitive fines, then we can talk about how people crossing the border don't respect the laws

So, on this basic, if the US doesn't enforce some laws, they shouldn't enforce any laws[i]?

Frankly, because a company violates the law and is not persecuted – which, mind you, more and more companies [i]are – does not mean it's okay for anybody.

Second, it's legal, in the United States – and in my country, as well – for a person to arrest an individual during the commission of a felony crime – like assault, or rape, or murder, or indeed crossing the border in some circumstances. However, the Minutemen do not even do that. They merely report – to the National Guard – people who they see crossing the border. The National Guard then… *gasp* arrests them for this crime

Here's an interesting point, though:

Unemployment in America is at 4.9%, and falling. This is lower then any EU nation. There's no evidence that immigrants are 'taking Americans jobs' – in fact, legal immigration has been proven in American history to decrease unemployment. With that in mind, allowing people to go across a border willy-nill, without even a passport, from a country like Mexico, is really bad for national security and the Minutemen are right about that one.

Here's an interesting point, though:

Unemployment in America is at 4.9%, and falling. This is lower then any EU nation. There's no evidence that immigrants are 'taking Americans jobs' – in fact, legal immigration has been proven in American history to decrease unemployment. With that in mind, allowing people to go across a border willy-nill, without even a passport, from a country like Mexico, is really bad for national security and the Minutemen are right about that one.Here's an interesting point, though:
Europe and America have different standards for considering people unemployed in their statistics.

Yes, for example Europe counts people who are taking courses from the government as having work.

Still, it's generally accepted Europe has a higher unemployment rate.

Are they "silent," or do they simply choose to focus their resources on a specific problem, just like regular law enforcement focuses different resources on different problems?

I don't think argumentation on a forum is really "resources" that needs to be focused in the same way limited manpower and budget requires law enforcement to specialize.

Yeah, they're silent. I'm skeptical about one-horse wagons.



Of course it does. But it is only one part and it is a part that need not necessarily be invoked in order to oppose immigration.

No, but I like to point it out. Otherwise it's kind of like the elephant in the living room no one talks about.

I oppose illegal immigration, but I advocate making it easier to immigrate legally as a solution. This however is unacceptable to xenophobes in principle. They want WALLS! Thousands of miles of walls! Patrolled by the military! Because they see it as an invasion. There's very little reasoning with that kind of 'argument.'

I oppose illegal immigration, but I advocate making it easier to immigrate legally as a solution.
I like this option best of all.

I oppose illegal immigration, but I advocate making it easier to immigrate legally as a solution.


Yes, that is part of the solution (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10534704&postcount=99)

About 15% of the illegals coming across the southern border are criminals and gang-types.


Please cite your source.


Although it's not proper to paint them all with the same brush, it does make sence to try to keep them all out rather than deal with the 15%.


Attacking the sources and motovation for crime would make more sense. Desipio (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10534704&postcount=99) identifies age, income, and education as factors that effect electoral participation; the young, those with lower incomes, and those with less education tend to vote less. Out of the entire Latino community, Mexican Americans tend to be the youngest, earn the least income, and tend to possess the least amount of education.

Thus these factors result in a relative lack of electoral and political participation for the Mexican American community. It is also commonly observed that when a population cannot engage the community through the normal channels, that population will turn to unconventional (even violent) means to do so; I argued in an essay for a writing class I took that violent gangs in a housing project in Chicago represented an attempt by the community to establish a sort of protogovernment, in the absense of any attention by the "normal" authorities. Also, low levels of income and education probably prevent individuals from seeking opportunities to improve themselves, thus contributing to problems of crime. Gutiérrez (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10534545&postcount=92) also notes that immigrants are less likely to desire naturalization and citizenship if the benifits of doing so are not considered worthy of the cost and effort; he cities several individuals who have seen no reason to become citizens because of an apparent lack of opportunity.

While I tend to be highly skeptical of government social programs aimed at improving things like income and education, I also seriously doubt that efforts to stop (illegal) immigration, or to eject those illegal immigrants that are already here, will help either. If anything, efforts like Proposition 187 in California only served to drive people away from those social services (education, medical, employment, etc) that could help improve their situation. The resulting fear and animosity felt toward government and the political community in general probably doesn't help crime statistics either. Such fear probably also continues to drive immigrant residents away from naturalizing, or illegal immigrants from trying to pursue legal immigration and residency.

In short, I would not be surprised if continued efforts to stop (illegal) immigration, or to deport those illegal immigrants that are already here, serve only to further alienate and anger the affected community. Neither would I be surprised if this reaction actually served to drive the crime rate up, not down.

I think illegal immigration is a problem, but so is the current immigration law, which mistakes bureaucracy for safety. Legal immigration needs to be streamlined, and our borders tightened. I also think amnesty for illegals living in this country already is probably just making the best of a bad situation.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=163157



Alright, this is for Americans since it deals an American group and America's illegal immigation 'problem.' Basically I want to know your opinion on what to do with illegal immigration.

Personally I think we need to drastically add more funds to the border patrol and start deporting illegal immigrants now. I am not againts immigration or immigrants, let me make that clear. However, if you don't want to enter the country legally, you don't deserve to get the same rights as Americans or immigrants who came here legally. If don't respect America's laws, leave.

AMEN

Tell you what--when the US government really starts enforcing laws against companies that knowingly hire illegals, and I mean starts seizing assets and levying huge, punitive fines, then we can talk about how people crossing the border don't respect the laws. They wouldn't be coming here if there weren't people offering them better jobs than they could get back home. But the Minutemen (racist fucks that they are) don't want to believe that perhaps the US is as much to blame as the border-crossers are--it's a lot easier to play the "wetback spic stealing from us" card than it is to admit that US companies are taking advantage of these people, because to do that would require the Minutemen types to acknowledge that these border-crossers are, indeed, people.
I'm so sick of people throwing that bullshit around. You have no evidence that they are racist and, in fact, I don't beleive they are - especially the dozens of Hispanic members they have. They have never done anything illegal have never made any racist statements and they have called repeatedly for fines and arrests of those who hire illegal immigrants. You call them racist because the concentrate their efforts on the Mexican border but if you've got a few leaks in a dam and a huge hole at the same time you take care of the hole before you look at the leaks. The fact is that the vast majority of illegal immigrants into the US are from mexico for very obvious reasons:

1. They can walk here. Try that from China.
2. Canadians can walk here, too, but they have a strong economy, low unemployment and a standard of living that is equivalent to the US so there's no reason to leave your friends and family to com here.

It might just be that people liek me who think we need much tougher border security aren't racist, it may be that we are exactly what we say we are - people in favor of tougher broder security.

It might just be that people liek me who think we need much tougher border security aren't racist, it may be that we are exactly what we say we are - people in favor of tougher broder security.

Tell you what--when the US government really starts enforcing laws against companies that knowingly hire illegals, and I mean starts seizing assets and levying huge, punitive fines, then we can talk about how people crossing the border don't respect the laws. They wouldn't be coming here if there weren't people offering them better jobs than they could get back home. But the Minutemen (racist fucks that they are) don't want to believe that perhaps the US is as much to blame as the border-crossers are--it's a lot easier to play the "wetback spic stealing from us" card than it is to admit that US companies are taking advantage of these people, because to do that would require the Minutemen types to acknowledge that these border-crossers are, indeed, people.

I know you focused on the tone of this post, and on the accusation of racism, but what about the core of the post? I'll rephrase it to be not as accusatory.

You say you are for border control, which I assume to mean you want less illegal immigrants coming in.

Then do you not also believe that something needs to be done about companies that hire illegals, and that these companies are themselves adding to the problem? Do you not believe that these companies are taking advantage of people, using their illegal status in order to save money? Do you not believe that these companies should be punished, as part of a larger method of cutting down on illegal immigration?

Border control is a bandaid solution...what do you think needs to be done in order to really treat the problem?

I know you focused on the tone of this post, and on the accusation of racism, but what about the core of the post? I'll rephrase it to be not as accusatory.

You say you are for border control, which I assume to mean you want less illegal immigrants coming in.

Then do you not also believe that something needs to be done about companies that hire illegals, and that these companies are themselves adding to the problem? Do you not believe that these companies are taking advantage of people, using their illegal status in order to save money? Do you not believe that these companies should be punished, as part of a larger method of cutting down on illegal immigration?

Border control is a bandaid solution...what do you think needs to be done in order to really treat the problem?
yes.
I'm so sick of people throwing that bullshit around. You have no evidence that they are racist and, in fact, I don't beleive they are - especially the dozens of Hispanic members they have. They have never done anything illegal have never made any racist statements and they have called repeatedly for fines and arrests of those who hire illegal immigrants. You call them racist because the concentrate their efforts on the Mexican border but if you've got a few leaks in a dam and a huge hole at the same time you take care of the hole before you look at the leaks. The fact is that the vast majority of illegal immigrants into the US are from mexico for very obvious reasons:

1. They can walk here. Try that from China.
2. Canadians can walk here, too, but they have a strong economy, low unemployment and a standard of living that is equivalent to the US so there's no reason to leave your friends and family to com here.

It might just be that people liek me who think we need much tougher border security aren't racist, it may be that we are exactly what we say we are - people in favor of tougher broder security.
I am unaware of any organization that calls for tougher broder enforcement that does not also call for enforcing existing law against those that hire illegal aliens.

I'm so sick of people throwing that bullshit around. You have no evidence that they are racist and, in fact, I don't beleive they are - especially the dozens of Hispanic members they have. They have never done anything illegal have never made any racist statements and they have called repeatedly for fines and arrests of those who hire illegal immigrants. You call them racist because the concentrate their efforts on the Mexican border but if you've got a few leaks in a dam and a huge hole at the same time you take care of the hole before you look at the leaks. The fact is that the vast majority of illegal immigrants into the US are from mexico for very obvious reasons:

1. They can walk here. Try that from China.
2. Canadians can walk here, too, but they have a strong economy, low unemployment and a standard of living that is equivalent to the US so there's no reason to leave your friends and family to com here.

It might just be that people liek me who think we need much tougher border security aren't racist, it may be that we are exactly what we say we are - people in favor of tougher broder security.
I call them racist because they are, and I've backed it up several times in this thread. It's not my fault if you're too lazy to read through the earlier posts and look at the documentary evidence showing that to be the case.

I call them racist because they are, and I've backed it up several times in this thread. It's not my fault if you're too lazy to read through the earlier posts and look at the documentary evidence showing that to be the case.
A quote from their website:

The Minuteman Project (MMP) is a citizens' Vigilance Operation monitoring immigration, business, and government.

MMP has no affiliation with, nor will we accept any assistance by or interference from, separatists, racists, or supremacy groups or individuals, no matter what their race, color, or creed.





About the Minuteman Project
The Minuteman Project is not a call to arms, but a call to voices seeking a peaceful and respectable resolve to the chaotic neglect by members of our local, state and federal governments charged with applying U.S. immigration law.

It is a call to bring national awareness to the decades-long careless disregard of effective U.S. immigration law enforcement. It is a reminder to Americans that our nation was founded as a nation governed by the "rule of law," not by the whims of mobs of ILLEGAL aliens who endlessly stream across U.S. borders.

Accordingly, the men and women volunteering for this mission are those who are willing to sacrifice their time, and the comforts of a cozy home, to muster for something much more important than acquiring more "toys" to play with while their nation is devoured and plundered by the menace of tens of millions of invading illegal aliens.

Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious "melting pot."

The result: political, economic and social mayhem.

Historians will write about how a lax America let its unique and coveted form of government and society sink into a quagmire of mutual acrimony among the various sub-nations that will comprise the new self-destructing America.

Civil rights groups keep a very close eye on "the minutemen" so I doubt they're all that dangerous. If they shot an immigrant, they would be in a lot of trouble.

As long as they're harmless they're free do do whatever they like, in my opinion.

Fines and jail time for people who employ illegal immigrants would curtail it pretty sharply, I wager.

Psychotic Dan--the Republicans claim to be in favor of smaller government too. Just because a group makes a public claim doesn't make it so. Hell, even David Duke claims he isn't a racist. What--did you think the Minutemen were going to come out and say "we want all the Neo-Confederates and Neo-Nazis and Militia Men and everyone who thinks the country ought to be white and Protestant to come out and join our little club?" Spare me.

Actions talk--they're filled with the brim with those types mentioned above, even in the leadership. So no matter what they claim on their website, their actions belie it--they're racists. Accept it, admit it, and move the fuck on.

i figure that the best way to stop the illegal immigration is to help fix the reason these people are risking their lifes to get over here. i think mexico needs to look at itself and fix its own problems.

I call them racist because they are, and I've backed it up several times in this thread. It's not my fault if you're too lazy to read through the earlier posts and look at the documentary evidence showing that to be the case.

its funny, because the entire project, it's core demographic, the history it grew out of, and even the name it chose for itself all scream racist rightwing extremism. but we're supposed to look past all that and see, well, i'm not sure what's left, but apparently something.

Proof please of your last line?

From that 'minuteman' manifesto someone had posted...

"A Minuteman believes that just as ethnicity, race, religion and all such factors are incidental and do not affect our God-given, constitutional equality as American citizens"...

You'll note that, quite clearly, 'equality' only extends as far as American citizens...

As long as they're harmless they're free do do whatever they like, in my opinion.

the problem is, they aren't harmless. they are a means for neo-nazis and 'patriot' militiamen and neo-confederates to mainstream their ideas and rhetoric and give them an aura of legitimacy.

From that 'minuteman' manifesto someone had posted...

"A Minuteman believes that just as ethnicity, race, religion and all such factors are incidental and do not affect our God-given, constitutional equality as American citizens"...

You'll note that, quite clearly, 'equality' only extends as far as American citizens...

And your point being?

In other words, you have no proof.

I'm sorry that I'm one of those law abiding citizens who want to see our borders secured.

Which is, let's face it... a joke.

The only border that gets any attention, is the border with Mexico. Our coasts are not secure. Our border with Canada is fractured, at best.

So - where would terrorists enter our nation? Through Mexico (where there ARE fairly rigorous controls), or through the open Canadian border, or through the relativiely open coastline?

Or, is this NOT about National Security, at all.. and ALL about 'wetbacks doing our jobs'? Because, let's be serious... if the illegal immigrants were NOT here, the USA would start starving in less than two weeks...

Psychotic Dan--the Republicans claim to be in favor of smaller government too. Just because a group makes a public claim doesn't make it so. Hell, even David Duke claims he isn't a racist. What--did you think the Minutemen were going to come out and say "we want all the Neo-Confederates and Neo-Nazis and Militia Men and everyone who thinks the country ought to be white and Protestant to come out and join our little club?" Spare me.

Actions talk--they're filled with the brim with those types mentioned above, even in the leadership. So no matter what they claim on their website, their actions belie it--they're racists. Accept it, admit it, and move the fuck on.
And because you posted a picture from a blog site with the intended purpose of showing that the Minutemen are racist I'm supposed to buy that? I very seriously doubt anyone in that group is from teh Minutemen at all. I doubt that pic is from a minutemen rally. I have heard repeatedly during interview Jim Ghilcrest lament the fact that neonazis show up at some of his rallys, but like he says there's nothing he can do about it since they are free to demonstrate as well. He has specifically said that any member of the minutemen that resorts to violence or anything illegal in support of the cause will have their membership revoked.

I personally have a hard time believing much of what the critics opf the minutemen say because tey are caught in lies so often including the now famous border torture incident where they alledgedly caught an immigrant trying to cross and they beat him up, threatened him and denied him water. Problem is it was video taped and they never touched him accept to give him water and help him sit down when he started to fall. The video showed NO mistreatment of anykind and it if had the people would have been kicked out of the organization.

I read all your posts. You haven't back up shit. Sow me evidence that they have ties to racist groups from some reputable news source, not some blog for people who want open borders and have an agenda.

Which is, let's face it... a joke.

The only border that gets any attention, is the border with Mexico. Our coasts are not secure. Our border with Canada is fractured, at best.

Agreed. We should secure all of our borders. No arguement here.

So - where would terrorists enter our nation? Through Mexico (where there ARE fairly rigorous controls), or through the open Canadian border, or through the relativiely open coastline?

The border is tightening up with Canada and we still have a porus Mexican Border so they could still enter via anywhere. Something that needs to be rectified.

Or, is this NOT about National Security, at all.. and ALL about 'wetbacks doing our jobs'? Because, let's be serious... if the illegal immigrants were NOT here, the USA would start starving in less than two weeks...

:rolleyes:

"A Minuteman believes that just as ethnicity, race, religion and all such factors are incidental and do not affect our God-given, constitutional equality as American citizens"...
Does this mean that God gave the USians their Constitution? What a letdown for the human beings who wrote it. You know, finding out they were plagiarists and all.

its funny, because the entire project, it's core demographic, the history it grew out of, and even the name it chose for itself all scream racist rightwing extremism. but we're supposed to look past all that and see, well, i'm not sure what's left, but apparently something.
Bullshit. You just throw a bunch of inuendo out and back it up with nothing. How is the project racist? How is the demographic racist? How is its history racist? And, especially, how is the NAME racist? I don't know where the fuck you puled that from...

Bullshit. You just throw a bunch of inuendo out and back it up with nothing. How is the project racist? How is the demographic racist? How is its history racist? And, especially, how is the NAME racist? I don't know where the fuck you puled that from...

Calm down. Cussing does nothing for your argument as it really does retract from it.

that's the most insane idea I've ever heard. You realize, then, that high school kids woking at McDonalds would be making $12 an hour. Not only would that destroy our economy, but it's just plain stupid. The minimum wage serves to keep people working at less than a living wage...it should be eliminated. Then, employers could pay part time high schoool kids less and could afford to pay others more. The market will serve to ensure that employers don't try to pay anyone 50 cents an hour because no one would work there.

At the local Burger King, the starting wage is $7 an hour. Why would any fast-food employer pay anyone more than the minimum wage, you ask? Because no one would work there if they didn't. It's the illegals that keep the wages where they get jobs down, not the other way around. They are paid so low because they're willing to work so low. the solution is to help foster a better economy in Mexico so they don't have a reason to come here.

Actually, the BK and McD's etc near me, pay minimum wage... kinda shoots a whole in that part of your argument...

First: I agree - if the Mexican economy were stronger, conditions better, etc... then we would have less of a problem. But... well, the Mexican economy is NOT stronger, and the conditions are not better.... and the United States is not about to pay the difference, now are they?

So - we have to work with what we CAN control... like our own internal job market.

You've really spat a couple of mouthfuls there that just plain don't make any sense...


"...high school kids woking at McDonalds would be making $12 an hour..."

Is only relevent, or even true, if McDonalds hired highschool kids. Which, for $12 per hour, they might not... preferring, instead to pick more productive parts of the worker pool.


"...Not only would that destroy our economy..."

No reason it should, and you don't give any.


"...The minimum wage serves to keep people working at less than a living wage..."

Not only does this not make logical sense, it isn't borne out by economic theory, either. If the 'cost of living' equates to $12 per hour, and you pay $12 per hour... how does that 'keep people working at less than a living wage'? Surely - situations where companies can pay stupid pittances (like $5 per hour, which is below the poverty line for a full time job), is what ACTUALLY 'keeps people working at less than a living wage'...?


"...Then, employers could pay part time high schoool kids less and could afford to pay others more..."

Again, this is just nonsense. Employers don't 'pay others more' because they can AFFORD it, they pay it because they MUST (for one reason or another). If McDonalds COULD pay 50 cents per hour, you know damned well they WOULD.

And... just what IS your obsession with 'high school kids'? If companies had a higher minimum wage, they would hire MORE PRODUCTIVE staff. Thus, shiftless teens would either LEARN a work ethic, or lose out on jobs to people who WILL work for a living.


"...The market will serve to ensure that employers don't try to pay anyone 50 cents an hour because no one would work there..."

Typical libertarian propoganda... and, as always with libertarian propoganda, it is based entirely on wishful thinking. Why do you think some of those immigrants work for $2 per hour? Because $2 is BETTER THAN NOTHING.

There are ALWAYS going to be SOME people desperate enough to take practically ANY job, for practically ANY wage. And this libertarian claptrap relies on a willful ignorance of that fact.

Free markets help corporations. The ONLY thing a free market gives the average citizen, is the freedom to get 'fucked by the man'.


"...It's the illegals that keep the wages where they get jobs down, not the other way around. They are paid so low because they're willing to work so low..."

Not only is this obviously untrue... it is not the 'fault of the low paid worker' that the company refuses to pay a decent wage... but if it WERE true, it would actually reinforce the call for a fair minimum wage.


Of course, all of this is unimportant, because the USA just plain wouldn't function, if you took away all the illegal help. The only reason the American economy is as strong as it is, is the SAME reason that the Roman economy was strong, and the same reason that the South was a risk to Northern industry.... 'slave' labour.

Which is, let's face it... a joke.

The only border that gets any attention, is the border with Mexico. Our coasts are not secure. Our border with Canada is fractured, at best.Canadians aren't streaming into the country by the millions because their standard of living is equivalent. Why leave yoru family and friends when you can live just as well in Canada? The reason the souther border is getting all teh attntion is because that's where the problem is. As I said earlier, if you have a few small leaks next to a giant hole in a dam you take care of the hole first and the leaks later. It just makes sense.

So - where would terrorists enter our nation? Through Mexico (where there ARE fairly rigorous controls), or through the open Canadian border, or through the relativiely open coastline?That's just a joke. The mexican border is NOT fairly rigorously controlled as evidenced by the millions of illegal immigrants streaming across it and the drugs that just walk into the country. The border is about as wide open as any border in the world.

Or, is this NOT about National Security, at all.. and ALL about 'wetbacks doing our jobs'? Because, let's be serious... if the illegal immigrants were NOT here, the USA would start starving in less than two weeks...Its about security, its about the 'illegal immigrants" taking the jobs of poor and working class Americans, its about the millions of dollars paid by taxpayers to pay for the education and medical servies provided to people who work here, don't pay taxes and then send their money back home, its about the criminals that stream across the border its about teh drugs that stream across the border its about diseases coming across the border from people who have no immunization history so they carry things like whooping cough (http://www.usbc.org/info/2005/jun/whooping.htm), something that had all but disappeared in the US...

And your point being?

You asked for evidence of xenophobia, no?

But... you don't see the assertion that only Americans deserve equality (as their God-given right, apparently), as somewhat xenophobic?

You asked for evidence of xenophobia, no?

But... you don't see the assertion that only Americans deserve equality (as their God-given right, apparently), as somewhat xenophobic?

I don't mind people who come here legally to have equal rights but those that come in here illegally should be tossed out on their rear end and that includes the cubans who I do have sympathies for but they aren't any more special.

If we're going to crack down on illegal immigration then we need to do it for all the people who come here illegally.

From a congressional report on the Minutemen:
No Enforcement Efforts: Project organizers are maintaining rigid rules that volunteers take no enforcement action whatsoever. They simply report the location of suspected illegal immigrants to the Border Patrol. Our team confirmed all volunteers are drilled on avoiding confrontation, even if provoked, and under instruction to allow all persons to pass unobstructed, and without verbal harassment. They are allowed to provide emergency aid to illegal immigrants if necessary, and our team investigated one incident of an illegal immigrant who fell behind his group, and was actually provided emergency food and water by Minutemen while Border Patrol agents were in transit. An illegal immigrant who claimed on Wednesday (6 APR) to have been detained by the Minutemen is likewise reported to have received food, water, and money from sympathetic volunteers before changing his story, reportedly after outside coaching.
Transparency: The Minutemen organization has opened its operations 100% to media, government, and public inspection. Local, national, and international press, along with all government agencies, have access to all Minutemen facilities in the area, as well as being offered the opportunity to observe all field operations. Our team accompanied newspaper reporters on an overnight observation of a high drug-trafficking area this week. Stone and Peterson confirm the reporters had full access to the entire operation, and the ability to talk to all members of the team. Some individual Minutemen team members chose not to talk or have their picture included in the story, which is within their rights, consistent with standard public affairs operations guidelines of state and federal agencies. By contrast, the U.S. Border Patrol did not allow our team to accompany their agents through ride-along requests that are traditionally provided as a courtesy to congressional fact-finding missions.

Canadians aren't streaming into the country by the millions because their standard of living is equivalent. Why leave yoru family and friends when you can live just as well in Canada? The reason the souther border is getting all teh attntion is because that's where the problem is. As I said earlier, if you have a few small leaks next to a giant hole in a dam you take care of the hole first and the leaks later. It just makes sense.


Rather depends, no?

I mean... we are 'leaking' workers on the Southern border, but we are theoretically letting foreigners with nuclear devices in attache cases, stroll in across the Northern Border.

You are missing one or two points, also... first... I didn't say CANADIANS would cross the border... just that the OPEN border is to the North.

Do you honestly believe that ALL immigrants crossing from the South are Mexicans?

Second - if you are a Mexican that can afford sea-fare (of any kind) coming in on the unguarded coasts (of which we have QUITE a large distance) is an alternative. Or, if you can afford airfare, you fly to Canada, and then come in over the MUCH larger, and much LESS weel protected Northern border.

But that doesn't happen, right? So - what happens when we clamp down the Southern border? You think people will just stop trying to get in?



That's just a joke. The mexican border is NOT fairly rigorously controlled as evidenced by the millions of illegal immigrants streaming across it and the drugs that just walk into the country. The border is about as wide open as any border in the world.


It IS rigorously controlled, when you compare it to ALL THE OTHER ingress points.


Its about security, its about the 'illegal immigrants" taking the jobs of poor and working class Americans, its about the millions of dollars paid by taxpayers to pay for the education and medical servies provided to people who work here, don't pay taxes and then send their money back home, its about the criminals that stream across the border its about teh drugs that stream across the border its about diseases coming across the border from people who have no immunization history so they carry things like whooping cough (http://www.usbc.org/info/2005/jun/whooping.htm), something that had all but disappeared in the US...

Illegal immigrants are not 'taking the jobs of poor and working class americans'. Illegal immigrants are doing the shit americans don't want to get their hands dirty with.

And, I know you are just reaching here, because 'Whooping Cough' is a joke. I mean, sure, it kills... but we have an UNPROTECTED disease in this country that pisses-all-over Whooping Cough as a risk, in as much as we STILL have uncontrolled Bubonic Plague in areas like New Mexico. Okay... so it mainly lives in wildlife, but every so often it migrates back into the human population.

Claiming the risks of Whooping Cough, when we HAVE plague, tuberculosis (again) and AIDS, is like complaining about a lit match, while your house is on fire.

I don't mind people who come here legally to have equal rights but those that come in here illegally should be tossed out on their rear end and that includes the cubans who I do have sympathies for but they aren't any more special.

If we're going to crack down on illegal immigration then we need to do it for all the people who come here illegally.

How about we chuck out ANYONE that doesn't have a legitimate claim?

So - we can start with all those damn Europeans, who came over here and butchered the people WITH a legitimate claim.... good idea, no?

I mean - surely, if just 'being here first' is a good enough reason to decide who stays and who goes, we SHOULD be putting this issue in the hands of the Native American, not the Manifest Destiny interlopers, no?


But, back to the point of the comment... you are missing the important part. According to the minutemen manifesto, as presented, other people are 'less equal' (which they claim as god-ordained, no less), than Americans.

Does this not remind you at all of similar sorts of rhetoric used throughout history?

From a congressional report on the Minutemen:

Please provide a link to, or information on where to obtain, the original source.

But, back to the point of the comment... you are missing the important part. According to the minutemen manifesto, as presented, other people are 'less equal' (which they claim as god-ordained, no less), than Americans.

Does this not remind you at all of similar sorts of rhetoric used throughout history?


Actually, it reminds me of rhetoric used by early instances of Mexican American political organizations (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10534545&postcount=92) (LULAC, American G.I. Forum) who insisted that the rights of U.S. Citizens come first, that immigrants should assimilate, use English, and that immigration from south of the border should be limited or stopped all together.

Such rhetoric is not necessarily motovated by racism or lack of concern for rights. Rather, an assessment of history shows that it can simply be motovated by the belief that the United States Government exists to promote the interests and rights of U.S. Citizens first (Edit: although not necessarily exclusively).

Rather depends, no?

I mean... we are 'leaking' workers on the Southern border, but we are theoretically letting foreigners with nuclear devices in attache cases, stroll in across the Northern Border.

You are missing one or two points, also... first... I didn't say CANADIANS would cross the border... just that the OPEN border is to the North.

Do you honestly believe that ALL immigrants crossing from the South are Mexicans?

Second - if you are a Mexican that can afford sea-fare (of any kind) coming in on the unguarded coasts (of which we have QUITE a large distance) is an alternative. Or, if you can afford airfare, you fly to Canada, and then come in over the MUCH larger, and much LESS weel protected Northern border.

But that doesn't happen, right? So - what happens when we clamp down the Southern border? You think people will just stop trying to get in?If you are a Mexican that can afford sea or airfare then you are not trying to illegally enter the US. If you can afford those things you probably have a good job, nice home, etc... in Mexico.

Fact, and this is ireffutable: Millions of poor immigranst are streaming into our country through our southern border at rates that dwarf any other avenue of illegal immigration. Period. This is refuted by nobody.




It IS rigorously controlled, when you compare it to ALL THE OTHER ingress points. That's crap. If they try to drive in across a border station, sure. If they walk or drive in across the hundreds of miles of open desert that's a different story. Again, see above. If it were hard why are they streaming in by the millions?



Illegal immigrants are not 'taking the jobs of poor and working class americans'. Illegal immigrants are doing the shit americans don't want to get their hands dirty with.That's a myth. They're taking construction jobs, nanny jobs, cooking jobs, driving jobs they'ev even found illegals working for companies with government contracts. Also, if no one will do the jobs illegals do, who does them in Idaho? Who does them in Nebraska? It's not that Americans wont do the jobs, its that they wont work illegal hours for illegal wages.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-guestworker20feb20,0,6572167.story?coll=la-headlines-california

And, I know you are just reaching here, because 'Whooping Cough' is a joke. I mean, sure, it kills... but we have an UNPROTECTED disease in this country that pisses-all-over Whooping Cough as a risk, in as much as we STILL have uncontrolled Bubonic Plague in areas like New Mexico. Okay... so it mainly lives in wildlife, but every so often it migrates back into the human population.

Claiming the risks of Whooping Cough, when we HAVE plague, tuberculosis (again) and AIDS, is like complaining about a lit match, while your house is on fire.
Whooping cough is a devestating disease that is often fatal in children.

Whooping Cough, or pertussis, is particularly dangerous for children and can be fatal in infants, warns the doctors group.

"This illness is called pertussis because it is caused by bacteria called Bordetella pertussis, which attacks the lining of the breathing passages, producing severe inflammation and narrowing of the airways," says the caution from the AAP. "Severe coughing is a prominent symptom. Because the child is short of breath, she inhales deeply and quickly between coughs. These breaths frequently make a "whooping" sound, which is how this illness got its common name. The intense coughing scatters the pertussis bacteria into the air, spreading the disease to other susceptible persons."

Infants with pertussis become exhausted and develop complications, such as susceptibility to other infections, pneumonia and seizures. The cough may not disappear for months and may return with subsequent respiratory infections.

And epidemiologist blame illegal immigration:

Madeleine Pelner Cosman, author of a report in the spring issue of the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, is one of those professionals who has linked the increase in whooping cough, as well as tuberculosis, malaria, measles and even leprosy with illegal immigration.

"Certain diseases that we thought we had vanquished years ago are coming back, and other diseases that we've never seen or rarely seen in America, because they've always been the diseases of poverty and the third world, are coming in now," she said.

Please provide a link to, or information on where to obtain, the original source.
No problem.

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/ga09_norwood/Minutemen.html

Actually, it reminds me of rhetoric used by early instances of Mexican American political organizations (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10534545&postcount=92) (LULAC, American G.I. Forum) who insisted that the rights of U.S. Citizens come first, that immigrants should assimilate, use English, and that immigration from south of the border should be limited or stopped all together.

Such rhetoric is not necessarily motovated by racism or lack of concern for rights. Rather, an assessment of history shows that it can simply be motovated by the belief that the United States Government exists to promote the interests and rights of U.S. Citizens first (Edit: although not necessarily exclusively).

ALl of which, lovely though it is, doesn't really have any bearing on whether the assumption that only 'Americans' are worthy of being 'equal' is 'xenophobic'.

Actually, it reminds me of rhetoric used by early instances of Mexican American political organizations (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10534545&postcount=92) (LULAC, American G.I. Forum) who insisted that the rights of U.S. Citizens come first, that immigrants should assimilate, use English, and that immigration from south of the border should be limited or stopped all together.

Such rhetoric is not necessarily motovated by racism or lack of concern for rights. Rather, an assessment of history shows that it can simply be motovated by the belief that the United States Government exists to promote the interests and rights of U.S. Citizens first (Edit: although not necessarily exclusively).
I read your post there and it reminded me of a study done in a linguistics class I took in college on a similar issue - English as a second language courses. I did not do the report so I can't quote the stats, but the surprise was that many Hispanic immigrants viewed ESL classes as a government plot to keep their people poor. They wanted their children to learn English because they felt this would better their chances of getting good jobs. They felt that keeping them from learning English was teh government's way of keeping the Hispanic population poor.

ALl of which, lovely though it is, doesn't really have any bearing on whether the assumption that only 'Americans' are worthy of being 'equal' is 'xenophobic'.
You keep trying to frame this as meaning that hispanics are not equal to white people. That's clearly not what Ghilcrest is saying. What he is saying has nothing to do with race. His point is that as American citizens, including Hispanic, African American, Asian and whatever other race you are, we have more of a right to the services provided by taxpayer dollars and that we have a right to stop the degradation of those services by the flood of illegal immigrants.

If you are a Mexican that can afford sea or airfare then you are not trying to illegally enter the US. If you can afford those things you probably have a good job, nice home, etc... in Mexico.

Fact, and this is ireffutable: Millions of poor immigranst are streaming into our country through our southern border at rates that dwarf any other avenue of illegal immigration. Period. This is refuted by nobody.


If you are a Mexican that can afford air or sea fare... perhaps you are one of a group that intends to progress across the border in smaller groups... sponsoring individuals from both sides? Perhaps you already HAVE a 'patron' in the US?

The ONLY reason why those avenues are NOT explored AS heavily yet, is because it is still easier to get in across the Southern border. That doesn't mean it is the ONLY avenue.

I notice you utterly failed to respond to the question about whether ALL the immigrants coming in from the South are Mexican...

The simple fact remains, as it gets harder to cross the border, it costs more. Instead of just walking across like they might have 30 years ago, some of these immigrants now pay truckers to carry them across the border, or they might pay drug cartels to use cartel access.

As it gets harder and harder, the costs will increase, and the Northern and coastal entryways will become more attractive.



That's crap. If they try to drive in across a border station, sure. If they walk or drive in across the hundreds of miles of open desert that's a different story. Again, see above. If it were hard why are they streaming in by the millions?


You don't see "hundreds of miles of open desert" as being an obstacle?

Like I said, COMPARED to other routes, the Southern border IS well guarded.


That's a myth. They're taking construction jobs, nanny jobs, cooking jobs, driving jobs they'ev even found illegals working for companies with government contracts. Also, if no one will do the jobs illegals do, who does them in Idaho? Who does them in Nebraska? It's not that Americans wont do the jobs, its that they wont work illegal hours for illegal wages.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-guestworker20feb20,0,6572167.story?coll=la-headlines-california


And, in each case, they are taking the jobs that pay little, for often very rigorous work. Because Americans just don't want to work that hard.


Whooping cough is a devestating disease that is often fatal in children.


Don't patronise me, I know what Whooping Cough is. I've known since I suffered from it at about age 5, and it nearly killed me.... however...


And epidemiologist blame illegal immigration:

Some might... but I suffered from Whooping Cough in the UK, which has NOTHING LIKE the illegal ingress of immigrants. I guess it's just evidence that some epidemiologists look for scape goats.

You keep trying to frame this as meaning that hispanics are not equal to white people. That's clearly not what Ghilcrest is saying. What he is saying has nothing to do with race. His point is that as American citizens, including Hispanic, African American, Asian and whatever other race you are, we have more of a right to the services provided by taxpayer dollars and that we have a right to stop the degradation of those services by the flood of illegal immigrants.

I didn't say what you claim I said. I've made NO comments about race. What I HAVE referred to is the assertion of 'equality', and how it is a value only attributed to Americans, of whatever race, by this statement.

I think you are confused about what I might mean by xenophobia, if you think I'm talking about 'race'.

Also, I disagree with your overly benevolent reading of what these assertions of 'greater equality' might mean. You can couch it how you like, but at heart, it is STILL just a chapter from Animal Farm...

ALl of which, lovely though it is, doesn't really have any bearing on whether the assumption that only 'Americans' are worthy of being 'equal' is 'xenophobic'.

Actually, I had realized that I had not sufficiently explained why it was relevant and was about to edit my post. The rhetoric put forth by these early Mexican American political organizations is relevant because it was largely a reaction against the xenophobia and racism that was so common at the time these organizations formed. There, of course, has been a historical tendency among Americans to see U.S. Citizens of Mexican descent and recent immigrants as the same population. In fact, many U.S. Citizens have fallen victim to anti-immigration efforts and movements (repatriation efforts, for instance).

By promoting assimilation, use of English, and the promotion of U.S. Citizen rights first (but not necessarily exclusively), these organizations intended to demonstrate that the Mexican American community was a productive and successful segment of the overall American population -- E Pluribus Unum and such. Once the rights of U.S. Citizen population were secure, immigrants would be better prepared to enter American society.

So, in fact, history shows an instance of pro-U.S. Citizen anti-immigration politics that was actually designed to combat xenophobia and racism. Thus the appeal to history is not necessarily successful, as it can actually demonstrate that the rhetoric claimed to be "xenophobic" is not necessarily so.

His point is that as American citizens, including Hispanic, African American, Asian and whatever other race you are, we have more of a right to the services provided by taxpayer dollars ....

I do not support Gilchrist's politics, however, that is how I read the statement as well.

No problem.

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/ga09_norwood/Minutemen.html

I might be far less skeptical if this report came from a more neutral source.

Actually, the most effective tool that could be employed in the 'war on illegal immigration', would be a minimum wage. And, not the stupid $5 or whatever... a sensible minimum wage, that is enforced ABSOLUTELY.

It might not be immediately apparent how this would benefit native workers... but the simple fact is, the illegal immigrants LARGELY do the shitty work that 'real Americans' don't want to get their hands dirty with.

So - make a minimum wage at... say $12 per hour. Then Americans WILL pick fruit, and WILL clean offices.


Also - just as a thought.... you know that America wouldn't last more than a couple of weeks if we really DID deport all the non-legals, right? We are THAT dependent on the 'illegal' economy... ESPECIALLY where it matters, in things like food production and agriculture.

Deport all the illegals if you want, but it will be PHENOMENALLY expensive, and then we'll all starve.


You're heading in the right direction, but you're abit too drastic as far as consequences of deportation. We are fairly dependant on that economy. Sure, we can do with out it. It would just cause more American's to do those jobs, as oppose to Hispanic workers, and American's cost more to pay, so prices would rise. So a .50 cent a pound orange (hypothetical price), becomes $1.00-$1.50 per pound. So the options are pay two to three times as much for something, and deal with hispanic immigrants whom don't bother me all that much, or deport them and make goods more expensive.
But the consequences wouldn't be the total breakdown of American soceity, not by a long shot.

Just my opinion.....

If you are a Mexican that can afford air or sea fare... perhaps you are one of a group that intends to progress across the border in smaller groups... sponsoring individuals from both sides? Perhaps you already HAVE a 'patron' in the US?Yeah, maybe, and your point is?

The ONLY reason why those avenues are NOT explored AS heavily yet, is because it is still easier to get in across the Southern border. That doesn't mean it is the ONLY avenue.Exactly. Thanks.

I notice you utterly failed to respond to the question about whether ALL the immigrants coming in from the South are Mexican...Of course not. Agian, your point is?

The simple fact remains, as it gets harder to cross the border, it costs more. Instead of just walking across like they might have 30 years ago, some of these immigrants now pay truckers to carry them across the border, or they might pay drug cartels to use cartel access.Yep.

As it gets harder and harder, the costs will increase, and the Northern and coastal entryways will become more attractive.Yep.




You don't see "hundreds of miles of open desert" as being an obstacle?

Like I said, COMPARED to other routes, the Southern border IS well guarded.Don't be dense. I meant that hundreds of miles of our border with mexico is open desert. In a linear fashion. I don't know why you keep making this stupid point. It is a fact that poor, migrant workers are streaming into the US by the millions through our southern border because its an easy thing to do. Who disputes that besides you? Even the others in this thread that are taking yoru side don't dispute that. Can you find me one article or politician or policy wonk that says that our southern border is well gaurded? As for using the northern border to get into the US, I think people coming from the South would probably just stay in Canada if they could get there. Canadians love open borders and would probably welcome them with open arms.



And, in each case, they are taking the jobs that pay little, for often very rigorous work. Because Americans just don't want to work that hard.They are taking jobs that now pay little because they have flooded the market with cheap labor. I know plenty of people that hang dry wall and frame houses. Did you read the article? We're talking about dry walluing jobs that 15 years ago payed $20.00 plus an hour and now pay $10.00/hour. There was a person on teh radio the other day who formed an organization called the Black Construction Workers of South Central who told a story about how he and some other people were hired to do finish some dry walling at a store that was being built. When they got there on Monday they were told to all go home accept one because some illegal workers had stayed all weekend for peanuts and finished the job. This would be illegal to do with American workers.



Don't patronise me, I know what Whooping Cough is. I've known since I suffered from it at about age 5, and it nearly killed me.... however...



Some might... but I suffered from Whooping Cough in the UK, which has NOTHING LIKE the illegal ingress of immigrants. I guess it's just evidence that some epidemiologists look for scape goats.
No, its evidence that doctors are seeing illegal immigrants in their hospitals with diseases that had all but vanished. This, again, is not a controversial notion. Its widely agreed in the medical community that immigrants bring diseases with them. Not even just here, by the way, but everywhere. Its why you have to get innoculated when you travel to certain countries, especially developing countries like those south of our borders.

How does any of this prove that the Minutemen are racist, by the way?

I might be far less skeptical if this report came from a more neutral source.
I said it was a congressional report and I linked you to the congressman's website who coauthored it...

Why don't you provide me with a link to a neutral source that says that the Minutemen are racist? Not a blog or some immigrant advocacy group, but a newspaper article or something. Maybe the L.A. Times? They are notoriously illegal immigrant freindly and they don't even accuse the Minutemen of having ties to any racist groups or promoting illegal activity in furtherance of thier cause. It shouldn't be hard for you to do. They get a hell of a lot of press. Also, I'm not talking about an op/ed piece calling them racist, I mean a news report that shows that they are anything other than a group of people who are concerned about illegal immigration.

From teh LATimes article regarding the jobs illegal immigrants are taking.

Richard Salinas, for instance, is a Los Angeles roofer with Local 36 of the United Union of Roofers, Waterproofers and Allied Workers. A second-generation Mexican American, Salinas says many contractors are hiring nonunion laborers - many of them undocumented immigrants - for less than half the $30-an-hour union rate, no benefits and no scheduled wage increases. The idea of more guest workers worries him, he says.

"If they're just trying to get foreign cheap labor, I'm against that," Salinas says. "These [immigrants] are very hard-working people, but my concern is the wages and contractors turning to them instead of union shops."

Salinas' concerns are borne out by some research. Harvard University professor George J. Borjas, the nation's leading labor economist on immigration, has found that the immigrant influx between 1980 and 2000 lowered wages of American high school dropouts by 7.4%, for an annual loss of $1,800 on an income of $25,000. The effect was worse for native-born Latinos and blacks, he said. Overall, he found that all US workers suffered a 3.7% wage decline.

"You can't have a huge increase in the labor supply without having an impact on the wage structure," said Cuban-born Borjas, adding that the data had turned around his original, more positive view of immigration.

"If one cares about the well-being of the less advantaged, having a guest-worker program to import hundreds of thousands of workers is a huge mistake," he said.

You're heading in the right direction, but you're abit too drastic as far as consequences of deportation. We are fairly dependant on that economy. Sure, we can do with out it. It would just cause more American's to do those jobs, as oppose to Hispanic workers, and American's cost more to pay, so prices would rise. So a .50 cent a pound orange (hypothetical price), becomes $1.00-$1.50 per pound. So the options are pay two to three times as much for something, and deal with hispanic immigrants whom don't bother me all that much, or deport them and make goods more expensive.
But the consequences wouldn't be the total breakdown of American soceity, not by a long shot.

Just my opinion.....

I didn't say a TOTAL breakdown (I don't think)... but can you honestly imagine what would happen if all that agricultural work just stopped, all that food packing? All that menial cleaning work, etc?

Considering the US 'government' can't manage to get TRAINED help on the ground after an anticipated disaster, I don't know how we'd manage the MASSIVE relocation that would be needed to keep just our food harvesting operational, much less, WHERE those workers would come from. A guy in a poorly-paid FULLTIME job, is unlikely to be willing to drop everything and jet halfway across the country for seasonal work.

There would be food shortages, and, no doubt, a wealth of other repurcussions that are just not even being imagined by the average person.

Bullshit. You just throw a bunch of inuendo out and back it up with nothing. How is the project racist? How is the demographic racist? How is its history racist? And, especially, how is the NAME racist? I don't know where the fuck you puled that from...

tell me where you think the idea of 'border militias' came from? what groups were the leaders of the minutemen project active in before? what kinds of groups have been doing this sort of thing for decades now? what sort of groups of armed white guys have been claiming a connection to the words "patriot", "militia", and "minutemen" for years? why is it that a large percentage of people who showed up for these publicity stunts were willing to openly identify as national alliance and aryan nations and the like?

sure, we can pretend that if you dress racist rightwing extremism up in a suit and give it a few basic lessons about media relations, then it ceases to be racist rightwing extremism. but that would be stupid.

Don't be dense.


Feel free to keep a civil tongue in your head, friend.


I meant that hundreds of miles of our border with mexico is open desert. In a linear fashion. I don't know why you keep making this stupid point. It is a fact that poor, migrant workers are streaming into the US by the millions through our southern border because its an easy thing to do. Who disputes that besides you? Even the others in this thread that are taking yoru side don't dispute that. Can you find me one article or politician or policy wonk that says that our southern border is well gaurded? As for using the northern border to get into the US, I think people coming from the South would probably just stay in Canada if they could get there. Canadians love open borders and would probably welcome them with open arms.


Are you really not getting it?

Let me repeat it on it's own, and add some emphasis that MIGHT help you see my point:

"COMPARED to other routes, the Southern border IS well guarded"


No, its evidence that doctors are seeing illegal immigrants in their hospitals with diseases that had all but vanished. This, again, is not a controversial notion. Its widely agreed in the medical community that immigrants bring diseases with them. Not even just here, by the way, but everywhere. Its why you have to get innoculated when you travel to certain countries, especially developing countries like those south of our borders.


Wait... immigrants bring disease, and THAT is why we get innoculated when we travel to certain countries?

Methinks you are confusing the terms 'immigrant' and 'tourist'.


How does any of this prove that the Minutemen are racist, by the way?

I didn't raise this particular argument... so... no real point asking me how it relates to the topic.

Wait... immigrants bring disease, and THAT is why we get innoculated when we travel to certain countries?

Methinks you are confusing the terms 'immigrant' and 'tourist'.It's a perfectly valid point & not at all specific to America or the peoples of the continent.

Immigrants from poorer countries frequently bring diseases with them, that are either exceedingly rare or extinct in the country they immigrate to. Same thing for refugees & people who've been abroard for extended periods.

And the reason people get innoculated before they go travelling, is because the diseases they'll be exposed to, doesn't exist (or are very rare) where they come from but flourish at their destination.

I'm amazed you didn't know this.

tell me where you think the idea of 'border militias' came from? In this case from people who are concerned about illegal immigration and they're not militias. They are explicitly barred from even confronting anyone crossing the border. All they do is call border patrol when they spot them. what groups were the leaders of the minutemen project active in before?I have never seen any evidence that Ghilcrest was ever a member of any racist group. I know that on his website it says: MMP has no affiliation with, nor will we accept any assistance by or interference from, separatists, racists, or supremacy groups or individuals, no matter what their race, color, or creed.

If you have any evidence that he or any other officer of this group has ties to any racist group, please post it.

what kinds of groups have been doing this sort of thing for decades now?I'm not aware that any other group has ever sent patrols to the border to spot illegal immigrants crossing and then report them to the Border patrol. what sort of groups of armed white guys have been claiming a connection to the words "patriot", "militia", and "minutemen" for years?These armed white guys are accomanied by armed black guys and armed Hispanic guys, too. why is it that a large percentage of people who showed up for these publicity stunts were willing to openly identify as national alliance and aryan nations and the like?Please show me proof of this. While some nazi groups have shown up at an occasional rally, the Minutemen have bene very careful to distance themselves and rebuke any help from them. Unfortunately, they cannot force people to leave a demonstration because the first amendment allows them to express themselves, too. As a matter in fact, teh only time I even remember a racist group showing up at a MM rally was one that was in Laguna. I'm not aware that that has ever happened besides that one time, although it may have.

sure, we can pretend that if you dress racist rightwing extremism up in a suit and give it a few basic lessons about media relations, then it ceases to be racist rightwing extremism. but that would be stupid.
Sure we can throw names at a group like "rightwing extremism" and "racist" without one shred of evidence if we disagree with their cause, but that would be stupid. All you've done in thsi post is make a bunch of completely unsubstantiated claims. You say Ghilcrest used to be a member of some racisr group, prove it. You say their rallies are frequented by racists, prove it. You call the militias even though they have never fired a shot even when they were shot at. The onoy reason some of them carry guns at all is because bullets frequently come zinging across the boder from mexico, but I am unaware of any incident taht the Minute Men were involved with that included any shots fired by them.

It's a perfectly valid point & not at all specific to America or the peoples of the continent.

Immigrants from poorer countries frequently bring diseases with them, that are either exceedingly rare or extinct in the country they immigrate to. Same thing for refugees & people who've been abroard for extended periods.

And the reason people get innoculated before they go travelling, is because the diseases they'll be exposed to, doesn't exist (or are very rare) where they come from but flourish at their destination.

I'm amazed you didn't know this.

It's not a matter of 'not knowing'... it's a matter of disease vectors NOT being specifically 'immigrants'. Tourists.... animals... bugs... airline crew... ALL are potential vectors. Indeed... one of the BEST manners of vector, is the citizens OF the country, RETURNING from their holidays/business trip, etc..... carrying a disease WITH them, but not 'suffering' from it, themselves.

It's ridiculous to assume that immigrants are the bane of the medical world, when they are so clearly just ONE avenue of infection.

Especially when we are talking about diseases like Whooping Cough (which you COULD, theoretically, contract from a water-fountain or being on the same airplane as a sneezing carrier)...

I said it was a congressional report and I linked you to the congressman's website who coauthored it...


Well, the phrase "congressional report" suggested to me that the report in question was produced by the U.S. Congress as a whole body, in the official course of an investigation or other function. The report seems, however, to have been produced by a single congressman who holds office near the southern border and thus might have an special interest in promoting the illegal immigration issue.

I don't claim that the congressman in question is wrong. I simply ask for a more neutral source that I can use to confirm the claims made in the report. And I would ask for such confirmation regardless of who wrote the report or what the issue was.


Why don't you provide me with a link to a neutral source that says that the Minutemen are racist?


Because I am not arguing any such thing. I am simply trying to inform myself.

...the Minute Men....

Why are they so small?

Are you really not getting it?

Let me repeat it on it's own, and add some emphasis that MIGHT help you see my point:

"COMPARED to other routes, the Southern border IS well guarded"I get what you are saying. I also get that it is absolutely imaterial. The fact is that the border is not well guarded or millions of people woudl not be able to come streaming acorss it.



Wait... immigrants bring disease, and THAT is why we get innoculated when we travel to certain countries?

Methinks you are confusing the terms 'immigrant' and 'tourist'.The post below your covered this quite nicely.
QUOTE]


Here's another quote about the jobs we're losing to illegal immigrants:
Damon Metters, 42, lost his full-time hours cleaning a bowling alley and quit a security firm after, he said, it failed to pay him. Anthony Brooks, 22, hasn't been able to find work since his seasonal job at Old Navy ended in December.

Both men have high school educations and want full-time jobs that pay at least $10 an hour, perhaps as janitors, warehouse workers, supermarket staff. Many employers are offering only part-time hours without benefits, and that, they said, doesn't cover monthly bills. Metters said he doesn't know how to search for jobs and apply for them online.

Metters is surviving on a monthly $132 welfare check, food stamps and the good graces of his father, who has offered him lodging. Brooks is living in a homeless shelter.

News of the guest-worker plan brings strong reactions from both men.

"No!" Brooks said. "Why don't they let us have the jobs?"

Well, the phrase "congressional report" suggested to me that the report in question was produced by the U.S. Congress as a whole body, in the official course of an investigation or other function. The report seems, however, to have been produced by a single congressman who holds office near the southern border and thus might have an special interest in promoting the illegal immigration issue.

I don't claim that the congressman in question is wrong. I simply ask for a more neutral source that I can use to confirm the claims made in the report. And I would ask for such confirmation regardless of who wrote the report or what the issue was. Almost no congressional reports are authored by the whole congress. It takes something like 9/11 or Katrina to get that kind of report. This was authored by a congressional caucus on immigration, not this one guy.



Because I am not arguing any such thing. I am simply trying to inform myself.
Oh. Okay.

Here's another quote about the jobs we're losing to illegal immigrants:

Damon Metters, 42, lost his full-time hours cleaning a bowling alley and quit a security firm after, he said, it failed to pay him. Anthony Brooks, 22, hasn't been able to find work since his seasonal job at Old Navy ended in December.

Both men have high school educations and want full-time jobs that pay at least $10 an hour, perhaps as janitors, warehouse workers, supermarket staff. Many employers are offering only part-time hours without benefits, and that, they said, doesn't cover monthly bills. Metters said he doesn't know how to search for jobs and apply for them online.

Metters is surviving on a monthly $132 welfare check, food stamps and the good graces of his father, who has offered him lodging. Brooks is living in a homeless shelter.

News of the guest-worker plan brings strong reactions from both men.

"No!" Brooks said. "Why don't they let us have the jobs?"


"Many empoyers are offering only part-time hours without benifits". This doesn't make you stop and think for a second? Why would they be doing this? It is just to save money at the expense of the poor, immigrant or otherwise. These men are uneducated and in a desperate situation of course they are going to be against the guest-worker plan. They have been failed by America. We should be taking a good hard look at the large corporations that constantly create loopholes so they don't have to pay any benefits and can fire workers without any repercussions at anytime. The average American would rather get their cheap crap from Walmart for a dollar less than hold these companies responsible for the havoc they are wreaking on the nations lower classes and small businesses. You don't think those part-time jobs could be made into full time with benefits? Of course they could but instead they want people to work two or three part time jobs so that they have employees who can be cut at anytime and who also get no right to benefits. These are the real problems. Immigration is just a red herring.

I get what you are saying. I also get that it is absolutely imaterial. The fact is that the border is not well guarded or millions of people woudl not be able to come streaming acorss it.


The fact that you just said, what you just said.. let's me know you STILL don't get it.

I was saying the Southern border is the more safe border in terms of National Security... because it is the one that has a pretense, at least, at monitoring.

The chances of getting picked up carrying a bomb, would be far lower if you wandered in from Canada, than if you made a sprint across the Mexican border.

I'm not too worried about hungry Mexicans. It's the guys with the bombs that scare me.


Here's another quote about the jobs we're losing to illegal immigrants:

Propoganda. I worked in a video store for $6 an hour. I wanted a 'fulltime job that paid ten dollars an hour'... just like the two characters in your little story. But, what there was, was part time, that paid $6.

If these two guys will not take what is available, they have no real room to complain, do they?

Actually... when I think about it... you are making a pretty good case for the universal 'minimum wage' I recommended way back on page 1.

Almost no congressional reports are authored by the whole congress. It takes something like 9/11 or Katrina to get that kind of report. This was authored by a congressional caucus on immigration, not this one guy.


It was authored by one particular member of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus. The Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus is also pushing what appears to be an anti-immigration agenda ( http://tancredo.house.gov/irc/legislation.html ) and appears to be highly partisan ( http://tancredo.house.gov/irc/members.html ). Thus, my skepticism remains.

It's not a matter of 'not knowing'... it's a matter of disease vectors NOT being specifically 'immigrants'. Tourists.... animals... bugs... airline crew... ALL are potential vectors. Indeed... one of the BEST manners of vector, is the citizens OF the country, RETURNING from their holidays/business trip, etc..... carrying a disease WITH them, but not 'suffering' from it, themselves.

It's ridiculous to assume that immigrants are the bane of the medical world, when they are so clearly just ONE avenue of infection.

Especially when we are talking about diseases like Whooping Cough (which you COULD, theoretically, contract from a water-fountain or being on the same airplane as a sneezing carrier)...
No one said they were the "bane" of the medical world. They are however an active vector for disease entering the US and a very potent vector because, while legal immigrants are checked and innoculated, illegal immigrants are not. Do a search. You'll find that the general consensus in the medical world is that the recent outbreak of whooping cough in the South West came here with illegal immigrants. This is a disease that had pretty much been eradicated here. Your whole argument seems to be, "Yes immigrants can bring diseases into the US, but so can dogs so lets not worry about immigrants." That's stupid. How about we worry about immigrants AND animals. In anycase, the only point in even bringing up disease was to point out that there are many reasons beyond national security to have tougher border enforcement. Disease is just one of them. BTW - Most diseases that people commonly get are from other people, not animals. When was the last time you got the flu from your dog?

It was authored by one particular member of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus. The Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus is also pushing what appears to be an anti-immigration agenda ( http://tancredo.house.gov/irc/legislation.html ) and appears to be highly partisan ( http://tancredo.house.gov/irc/members.html ). Thus, my skepticism remains.
The part of the report I quoted said two things:

1. They are a transparent organization. This means that people are freee to audit them, visit their offices and facilities, etc... If this is not true it shoudl be easy enough to find all kinds fo information to the contrary. I have never seen any.

2. They do not try to enforce the law. They simply call border patrol when they see groups of illegal immigrants crossing the border. Again, if they were actually getting into conrontations there would be all kinds of news stories about it. There are none. There are accusations, many of which have been proven to be outright lies, but there are no neutral parties that have ever observed this to be the case.

You can be skieptical, but then you said you were just trying to be informed. If that's tha case then do a search and come up with a story. Shoudl be very easy to do.

Here's the statement as to media relations:

http://www.minutemanproject.com/LEO.html

No one said they were the "bane" of the medical world. They are however an active vector for disease entering the US and a very potent vector because, while legal immigrants are checked and innoculated, illegal immigrants are not. Do a search. You'll find that the general consensus in the medical world is that the recent outbreak of whooping cough in the South West came here with illegal immigrants. This is a disease that had pretty much been eradicated here. Your whole argument seems to be, "Yes immigrants can bring diseases into the US, but so can dogs so lets not worry about immigrants." That's stupid. How about we worry about immigrants AND animals. In anycase, the only point in even bringing up disease was to point out that there are many reasons beyond national security to have tougher border enforcement. Disease is just one of them. BTW - Most diseases that people commonly get are from other people, not animals. When was the last time you got the flu from your dog?

Wow. You just don't read my posts at all, do you?

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/plague/

"...Yes immigrants can bring diseases into the US, but so can dogs so lets not worry about immigrants..."

Strawman. I said nothing of the sort.

However, I DO seriously doubt that immigrants are the only worrisome vector.

Regarding the Whooping Cough outbreak of which you speak... these epidemiologists you claim as expert witnesses... did they happen to track the disease BEFORE the south-west? Was there, for example, a mass outbreak of Whooping Cough shortly BEFORE the US outbreak, in North Mexico?

I wonder if they checked that..? I wonder if you checked their methodology?

When WAS this outbreak, anyway? I'd not be too surprised to find it coincided closely with a circa 'Spring Break' outbreak in Cancun...

Florida my ass. The backdrop is the same as the ones in Minutemen photos.
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/pictures.php

Did you even read the article you cited????? It clearly says LAGUNA BEACH. If you're going to cut and past links, at least read them. Jeesh.:rolleyes:

Hope that's enough for now...

You can take things out of context if you like, but "third world" and "Mexicans" are accurate descriptors for POOR PEOPLE FROM MEXICO!!!

Wow. You just don't read my posts at all, do you?

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/plague/

"...Yes immigrants can bring diseases into the US, but so can dogs so lets not worry about immigrants..."

Strawman. I said nothing of the sort.

However, I DO seriously doubt that immigrants are the only worrisome vector.

Regarding the Whooping Cough outbreak of which you speak... these epidemiologists you claim as expert witnesses... did they happen to track the disease BEFORE the south-west? Was there, for example, a mass outbreak of Whooping Cough shortly BEFORE the US outbreak, in North Mexico?

I wonder if they checked that..? I wonder if you checked their methodology?

When WAS this outbreak, anyway? I'd not be too surprised to find it coincided closely with a circa 'Spring Break' outbreak in Cancun...
I did read your post and i stand by what I said. Your points are imaterial. The fact is that immigration is an important vector for diseases spreading from one country to another. No epidimeologist would ever deny this. The fact that illegal immigrants are not checked for or innoculated against diseases makes them much more likely to bring in and spread diseases. The fact that there are other vectors makes absolutley no difference at all.

The out break started in 2004 and is ongoing. The main center of the outbreak is Arizona where doctors first started noticing it in illegal immigrants. It has since been found in schools and other places where disease is likely to spread.

I'm not aware that any other group has ever sent patrols to the border to spot illegal immigrants crossing and then report them to the Border patrol.

ok, now we get to the core of the problem - you just are unaware of the story here. let me sum up. racists and 'patriots' have been setting up border militias for years. it's an outgrowth of the old conspiracy-theory loving radical 'anti-communist' groups from the 50s and 60s (themselves an outgrowth of the old kkk and such), who went on to become the militia movement, and eventually the border militias. the border militia idea made a splash in the mid 80s, when one group of them (civillian military assistance, i think they were) held a number of people at gun point near the border for an hour or two.

chris simcox (of minutemen fame) got started in them several years before the minutemen project, including founding one called 'civil homeland defense'. back then, before his quick lesson on media relations, he was known to say things like the following about latinos:

"They have no problem slitting your throat and taking your money or selling drugs to your kids or raping your daughter and they are evil people."

there is a history to all of this that makes the whole thing stink worse than it already does. it doesn't pass the sniff test even if you don't know the full story, but afterwards there is no excuse to give them a pass on anything.

ok, now we get to the core of the problem - you just are unaware of the story here. let me sum up. racists and 'patriots' have been setting up border militias for years. it's an outgrowth of the old conspiracy-theory loving radical 'anti-communist' groups from the 50s and 60s (themselves an outgrowth of the old kkk and such), who went on to become the militia movement, and eventually the border militias. the border militia idea made a splash in the mid 80s, when one group of them (civillian military assistance, i think they were) held a number of people at gun point near the border for an hour or two.

chris simcox (of minutemen fame) got started in them several years before the minutemen project, including founding one called 'civil homeland defense'. back then, before his quick lesson on media relations, he was known to say things like the following about latinos:

"They have no problem slitting your throat and taking your money or selling drugs to your kids or raping your daughter and they are evil people."

there is a history to all of this that makes the whole thing stink worse than it already does. it doesn't pass the sniff test even if you don't know the full story, but afterwards there is no excuse to give them a pass on anything.
Chris Simcox is teh founder of The Minutemen Civil Defense Corp. This is not the same organization as Jim Ghilcrest's Minutemen Project.
http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/article.php?sid=60
http://www.minutemanproject.com/
And after doing a search for this guy I have no evidence that he is a racist, either, except that you say he is. I even found an article about him in the washington Times that doesn't metion that this guy was a member if any racist groups. As for the quote you attribute to him, it's true. There are many Hispanics that would do that. There are many people of every race that would. In particular, there are many criminals, such as members of the Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, gang that come through our southern border who are like that. Please show me the source of that statement including the context of the statement. Too often people take stuff completely out of context to make false accusations. For all I know the actual quote was:
Drug dealers and gang members coming through our southern border are a seruious problem. "They have no problem slitting your throat and taking your money or selling drugs to your kids or raping your daughter and they are evil people."

You can be skieptical, but then you said you were just trying to be informed. If that's tha case then do a search and come up with a story. Shoudl be very easy to do.


I am trying to become informed: I am waiting for you to properly defend your position before I make a decision as to whether it is correct. Since you're the one making an argument, it is up to you to "do a search" and provide corroborating evidence in defense of your position.

"Skeptical" does not mean "you're wrong." "Skeptical" means "you have not convinced me yet."

I am trying to become informed: I am waiting for you to properly defend your position before I make a decision as to whether it is correct. Since you're the one making an argument, it is up to you to "do a search" and provide corroborating evidence in defense of your position.

"Skeptical" does not mean "you're wrong." "Skeptical" means "you have not convinced me yet."
My position is that there is no evidence that The Minutemen Project is racist. You can't prove a negative. My only proof is the lack of mainstream news articles chronicalling racist activity on the part of the founder or the group. They don't write many articles about people not being racist.

My position is that there is no evidence that The Minutemen Project is racist. You can't prove a negative. My only proof is the lack of mainstream news articles chronicalling racist activity on the part of the founder or the group. They don't write many articles about people not being racist.
I can prove you wrong by showing you the people I have to listen to on the news whenever they "help" the border patrol arrest a vanload of immigrants, but alas, I cannot well do that. And perchance did you happen to look at the article I linked to a while back? A local news investigator took a hidden camera and tape recorder into a group of the minutemen, and they were really careful about what the newcomer might leak to the media.

Chris Simcox is teh founder of The Minutemen Civil Defense Corp. This is not the same organization as Jim Ghilcrest's Minutemen Project.

that division is a later development

A local news investigator took a hidden camera and tape recorder into a group of the minutemen, and they were really careful about what the newcomer might leak to the media.

I read the article ( http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10533723&postcount=40 ) and it does appear to point out a lot of problems with the "Minuteman" idea. However, some of what the article says seems to support claims that the Minuteman Project rejects "extremists" and that they do not actually detain individuals, but simply alert the Border Patrol:

"In an undercover investigation, we found the Minutemen controlling what is released to the media and struggling to keep out extremists."

"To problems the organizers are having controlling the extremists who showed up. John says, "The guys up here, on what we were talking about earlier on Mountain View, with the shotguns and the flag and lighting the fire. And lighting a fire on G-----n BLM land."

"Some of the volunteers are carrying shotguns, which is against the rules and our group leader admits: Minuteman organizers are having trouble deciding what to do about it.

Even if their efforts to exclude "extremists" are ultimately failing (controling a bunch of armed civilians "running around the desert at night" does seem like an act of futility), these quotes seem to suggest that the Minuteman Project is aware of and is at least trying to discourage their participation. If the undercover journalists has accurately assessed what was seen or heard, perhaps this provides evidence that the Minuteman Project actually does disavow such "extremists."

"After 10 minutes, Border Patrol agents arrive and take five illegal immigrants into custody. The Minutemen here follow their instructions - keeping their distance - and observing, as the agents do their jobs. It's a relief for my producer and myself, given the fact - everyone in our group - except us - is armed with handguns."

Here, the undercover journalist seems to confirm that Minutemen did not actually try to detain anyone, but rather informed the proper authorities and stayed out of the way.

(Edit: Again note that I do not mean to attack or defend the Minuteman Project. I only ask those who attack the Minuteman Project to defend their position, just as I ask those who defend the Minuteman Project to do the same.)

I did read your post and i stand by what I said. Your points are imaterial. The fact is that immigration is an important vector for diseases spreading from one country to another. No epidimeologist would ever deny this. The fact that illegal immigrants are not checked for or innoculated against diseases makes them much more likely to bring in and spread diseases. The fact that there are other vectors makes absolutley no difference at all.

The out break started in 2004 and is ongoing. The main center of the outbreak is Arizona where doctors first started noticing it in illegal immigrants. It has since been found in schools and other places where disease is likely to spread.

http://www.oph.dhh.state.la.us/infectiousdisease/docs/disease_updates_04/PertussisManual.pdf#search='whooping%20cough%20epidemic%202004%20epidemiology'



Infectious Disease Epidimiology Section
Office of Public Health, Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals

Pertussis (Whooping Cough)

Pertussis, or Whooping Cough, is an infectious disease caused by the bacterium Bordetella pertussis.

...The age group distribution shows that Pertussis in Louisiana is still affecting children more than adults, (unless adult cases go undiagnosed and under-reported). However, there is a resurgence of pertussis in the U.S. with no clear explanation for this increase. Pertussis is an epidemic disease with two to five year cycles. Immunization reduced the total number of cases but did not change the cycles, suggesting that immunization controlled the disease but not the propogation of infection in the human population. Recent studies support the hypothesis that pertussis infection is very common among adults. IgA antibodies to pertussis antigens are only produced after a natural infection and not after immunization. Prevalence studies of IgA antibodies show similar rates among adults in countries with generalized immunization (U.S.) or in countries with no systematic pertussis immunization (Germany in the 1970's).

I have emphasised the important parts.

1) The epidemic has NO clear explanation.

2) Immunization never 'wiped out' pertussis. It reduced the number of doctor visits, but did not affect the cyclic resurgence of the infection.

3) Immunization reduced the incidence of infection leading to disease, but did NOT affect the incidence of infection.

4) Pertussis is a permanent fixture of the population, in it's infectious stage. All we have had is 'dormant' DISEASE figures.

5) Pertussis infection is NO LESS COMMON in the heavily immunized U.S., than it is in a European state with fairly free border crossing.


All in all, what this report tells us is that, indeed, your assertion that "No epidimeologist would ever deny this", is wishful thinking.

The details are right in front of you... you can stop Pertussis from manifesting so much, but it is ALWAYS here, in a large number of adults. And, periodically, it 'flares' into disease epidemic. It's literally IN the report.

Which means, 'immigrants' as a vector REALLY ARE a red herring.

Don't rag on the minutemen.

I'm pro-immigration. Infact, being an anarchist, I think that there is no need to regulate immigration at all. Open the borders! Nobody doesn't deserve rights, because there are no restrictions anyway! Anarchy! :mp5:

But still, the minutemen are a credible organization, and having met it's members, they're all nice friendly old white people who simply don't like jobs being taken away from legal Americans, be they immigrants or not.

I don't agree with them, but they're not bad people.

Don't rag on the minutemen.

I'm pro-immigration. Infact, being an anarchist, I think that there is no need to regulate immigration at all. Open the borders! Nobody doesn't deserve rights, because there are no restrictions anyway! Anarchy! :mp5:

But still, the minutemen are a credible organization, and having met it's members, they're all nice friendly old white people who simply don't like jobs being taken away from legal Americans, be they immigrants or not.

I don't agree with them, but they're not bad people.
Busybodies = not good. And for a self-described anarchist, well...

Tell you what--when the US government really starts enforcing laws against companies that knowingly hire illegals, and I mean starts seizing assets and levying huge, punitive fines, then we can talk about how people crossing the border don't respect the laws. They wouldn't be coming here if there weren't people offering them better jobs than they could get back home. But the Minutemen (racist fucks that they are) don't want to believe that perhaps the US is as much to blame as the border-crossers are--it's a lot easier to play the "wetback spic stealing from us" card than it is to admit that US companies are taking advantage of these people, because to do that would require the Minutemen types to acknowledge that these border-crossers are, indeed, people.
Maybe the Minutemen could stand outside those companies corporate offices and shoot their upper management whenever they step outside. I'd support it!

But still, the minutemen are a credible organization, and having met it's members, they're all nice friendly old white people who simply don't like jobs being taken away from legal Americans, be they immigrants or not.


I've never heard of one American who had his job taken away from him by an illegal immigrant. Have you? Can we interview some of these people?

A maddox picture is suitable in response to that tired old phrase.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/immigrant.gif

And because you posted a picture from a blog site with the intended purpose of showing that the Minutemen are racist I'm supposed to buy that? I very seriously doubt anyone in that group is from teh Minutemen at all. I doubt that pic is from a minutemen rally. I have heard repeatedly during interview Jim Ghilcrest lament the fact that neonazis show up at some of his rallys, but like he says there's nothing he can do about it since they are free to demonstrate as well. He has specifically said that any member of the minutemen that resorts to violence or anything illegal in support of the cause will have their membership revoked.

I personally have a hard time believing much of what the critics opf the minutemen say because tey are caught in lies so often including the now famous border torture incident where they alledgedly caught an immigrant trying to cross and they beat him up, threatened him and denied him water. Problem is it was video taped and they never touched him accept to give him water and help him sit down when he started to fall. The video showed NO mistreatment of anykind and it if had the people would have been kicked out of the organization.

I read all your posts. You haven't back up shit. Sow me evidence that they have ties to racist groups from some reputable news source, not some blog for people who want open borders and have an agenda.
That's not just any blog I linked to--David Neiwert is an award winning free lance journalist and writer who specializes in white supremacist groups. BUt hey, I'm glad to offer a bit more in the way of documentation.

http://www.ipsnews.net/africa/print.asp?idnews=29786
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=557
http://www.sdcitybeat.com/article.php?id=3886

And that's just the first little bit of a google search. Give research a try--you might be surprised at just how much you can learn when you stop slurping down talking points.

I've never heard of one American who had his job taken away from him by an illegal immigrant. Have you? Can we interview some of these people?

A maddox picture is suitable in response to that tired old phrase.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/immigrant.gif
That's very true. Because as I pointed out earlier, they take mostly jobs that hardly anyone else would be willing to do. I live in a state where over 50% of all immigrants are illegal, and people aren't complaining that they're taking our jobs.

That's very true. Because as I pointed out earlier, they take mostly jobs that hardly anyone else would be willing to do. I live in a state where over 50% of all immigrants are illegal, and people aren't complaining that they're taking our jobs.
It is Ignorant American Syndrome - the average American is so out of touch with reality that he doesn't know what is going on in even other states in the country and thus make opinions based on wackos' appeals to emotion. IE, the Roy Moore case. The number of Alabamians supporting Roy Moore was negligible compared to the number of everyone but Alabamians supporting him.

I can prove you wrong by showing you the people I have to listen to on the news whenever they "help" the border patrol arrest a vanload of immigrants, but alas, I cannot well do that. And perchance did you happen to look at the article I linked to a while back? A local news investigator took a hidden camera and tape recorder into a group of the minutemen, and they were really careful about what the newcomer might leak to the media.
To: Members of the media and of law enforcement organizations--

Generally, the Minuteman Project's policy relative to the media and law enforcement is:

No restrictions.

Open season to all media and law enforcement.

Information provided "on demand."

The Minuteman Project welcomes inquiries from any law enforcement or tax authority.

The MMProject also maintains a policy of openness to all media who operate within the professional canons of journalism. Media members, please be forewarned that attempts to "create" hostile news events may result in a complete shut down of media access to the Minuteman Project. For example, during the project recently conducted in Arizona, the following two ugly-media incidents occurred:

A reporter from The Arizona Daily Star twice attempted to "spook" members of the MMP who were staffing an outpost on a moonless night in an effort to shock them into drawing their hand guns, thus providing the reporter with a story of how the MMP volunteers drew their guns on him. The attempt to shock the MMP volunteers into a serious, perhaps violent, confrontation failed.

Channel 5 KPHO--Phoenix sent two undercover reporters, who had falsely signed up as bone-fide MMP volunteers, into the MMP camp at Miracle Valley Bible College in Hereford, AZ. The reporters, without anyone's knowledge, and with hidden cameras and microphones, spent two days secretly filming volunteers and encouraging them to make derogatory racial comments so that the TV station would have a preconceived mean-spirited story to present on the television air waves about the MMProject volunteers. That ruse also failed. We kept telling everyone that we were a multi-ethnic, all-American crew of volunteers, but some would not stand for the truth.

Ladies and gentlemen of the media, as a former newspaper reporter, I ask that you respect the professional canons of journalism and actually report news...not try to create stories that do not--or would not--exist except for the deliberate, sinister entrapment by a "dirty" reporter. Such tactics are a disservice to your audiences and seriously impugn the integrity of all journalists. The social and economic issues that the Minuteman Project is addressing is extremely sensitive and it will take only one fabricated, hostile news story to set-off some "whacko" to kill or seriously maim innocent Minuteman Project volunteers. Please self-police your journalism counterparts and do not encourage them to bring hatred and violence against us.

Of the several hundred reporters covering the Minuteman Project, 90% of them performed with the pristine professionalism that would make any journalism dean, or media editor, proud. The other 10% of the profession should find a new livelihood, or take a job writing "propaganda" for the War Dept. To the 90% crowd, I say "carry on." The MMProject is available to you 24/7. Thank you.

That's very true. Because as I pointed out earlier, they take mostly jobs that hardly anyone else would be willing to do. I live in a state where over 50% of all immigrants are illegal, and people aren't complaining that they're taking our jobs.

It's not even just that. The whole idea of "our" jobs implies our businesses have a duty to only hire Americans. It's not like jobs have names on them that say "Americans Only!" - except of course, government jobs. No one has a job. I don't have a set of jobs that "we", as in you, me and all other Americans, "own" even though we don't work there.

The only possible instance it could be apt is if a company fired an American specifically in order to hire an illegal immigrant from Mexico. If this however, is happening so much, why don't we hear from those who get fired, only to find that their ex-employer hired someone they knew was not an American citizen? I'd like to hear more from these apparently numerous testimonies... but I suspect they don't exist.

That's very true. Because as I pointed out earlier, they take mostly jobs that hardly anyone else would be willing to do. I live in a state where over 50% of all immigrants are illegal, and people aren't complaining that they're taking our jobs.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-guestworker20feb20,0,6572167.story?coll=la-headlines-california

That cartoon is stupid. Of course they don't sit behind a tree looking for people to steal jobs from. Instead, they offer a cheap alternative to people who woudl otherwise employ Americans. Also, it's a myth that they do jobs Americans wont. They just do them for wages Americans wont. Illegal wages, in fact. Want someone to work 14 hours with no overtime? Hire an illegal alien. Want someone to work for $10.00/hour as a roofer when roofers usually cost $30.00/hour? Hire an illegal alien. Drive by any construction site and tell me Americans wont do those jobs. 20 years ago they were.

Even if their efforts to exclude "extremists" are ultimately failing (controling a bunch of armed civilians "running around the desert at night" does seem like an act of futility), these quotes seem to suggest that the Minuteman Project is aware of and is at least trying to discourage their participation. If the undercover journalists has accurately assessed what was seen or heard, perhaps this provides evidence that the Minuteman Project actually does disavow such "extremists."

they are really "nudge nudge, wink wink" efforts though. they followed through on exactly none of the methods they claimed would be used to exclude nazis. for example, they claimed they'd be working with the fbi doing background checks only to have the fbi say that they were doing no such thing. their disavowings are veiwed by the neo-nazis involved in the organization as a necessary bit of pc-ness for the media.

the only difference between the minutemen and, for example, ranch rescue or civillian military assistance is that the minutemen have learned about the importance of media relations and staying on message. and even then, they're more than willing to launch into paranoid conspiracies if allowed to talk for any length of time.

snip
And you have the gall to accuse us of choosing biased sources? By the way, I posted more links to other news sources on the page back--you may have missed them. I wouldn't want to accuse you of simply dodging contrary points after all. Unless you dodge them now, that is.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=163157



Alright, this is for Americans since it deals an American group and America's illegal immigation 'problem.' Basically I want to know your opinion on what to do with illegal immigration.

Personally I think we need to drastically add more funds to the border patrol and start deporting illegal immigrants now. I am not againts immigration or immigrants, let me make that clear. However, if you don't want to enter the country legally, you don't deserve to get the same rights as Americans or immigrants who came here legally. If don't respect America's laws, leave.

i agree with you on most points.

i am from (on both sides of my family)immigrants,so i have absolutely no problem with legal immigration.
if as some say it takes too long or is too hard,well change the system or follow the existing laws!
my grandparents on both sides did,that is all i ask.

to solve this problem seems pretty simple to me.

1. a southern border from the pacific to the gulf of mexico,and by border..i mean a 30 foot high wall,topped with concertina wire.
a no mans land in front of the wall for 50 yards or so,covered with mines.
every few hundred yards,remote firing stations working off of motion sensors,but will not shoot past our legal border.
guard towers that are manned with real soldiers,armed with sniper rifles and thermal imaging and night vision.
and serious patrols along our side of the wall by armed soldiers.
sign posts in as many languages as possible,stating that if you come within 100 yards of the area(likw around military bases)you will be attacked,danger/peligro/etc.also stating directions to legal crossing points!

that will stop the flow of illegal immigrants as well as any terrorists trying to sneak in.yet allow someone to cross legally,at a border control point.

2.start rounding up and deporting illegals,now.go to the hospital without legally being here,you get treated then deported.
get stopped for a motor vehicle offence and are illegal..get deported.
oh and while they are at it..go to all the jails,and deport them as well...rather then feeding and housing them on the taxpayers pocket,probably solve our prison overcrowding problem overnight.

3.probably the most important...any business that employs illegals will be fined harshly,forced to pay back taxes and other taxes never reported to the irs...very punitive taxes at that.
subsequent offences and the penalties escalate dramatically.

this of coarse will hurt the greedy corporations,and cut in to their bottom line and profits,some may even fail,but the market has a way of sorting things out.
it will save the average taxpayers billions,and corporations dont contribute much to the tax system much anyway.
so yes they will get hurt some,but in the long run,better for our security and economy.
they will have to pay more for labor..ie lazy american kids will have to work(nothing wrong with that)at a higher wage to attract laborers,and yes,prices for some products will go up..but thats a small price to pay.

4.review and perhaps start some type of guest worker program that permits temporary visas more easily for workers to come,but not so much for gangbangers and smugglers that dont work and commit crimes.
proof that they are currently working and paying taxes to keep their visas valid and avoid deportation.

all this will help our security,and maybe even spur some to change their own countries corrupt systems so they don't need to come here to survive or better their lot in life.

just mho

p.s.
evil thought,before deporting the crimminals in our jails,have them repay their debt to our society by working on the wall,for their food and shelter, and the money and victims they have caused us.

after that is done..in 2-3 years it could be done....start thinking about our northern border.
i dont see it as much of a threat to our security now,unless the canadiens are utterly lax in the screening of immigrants to their country.
but that will then become the target entry point of terrorists if the southern border is shut down..so very serious attention to threats coming from there would be needed...and a few hunter killer patrols in the wods up there wont hurt either.

No, it's like turning on one. Businesses would all simultaneously drop wages by large percentages.

Try thinking before you speak. If there were suddenly a shortage of workers, businesses would have to RAISE wages to get more help. Simple supply and demand.

Actually, the BK and McD's etc near me, pay minimum wage... kinda shoots a whole in that part of your argument...

First: I agree - if the Mexican economy were stronger, conditions better, etc... then we would have less of a problem. But... well, the Mexican economy is NOT stronger, and the conditions are not better.... and the United States is not about to pay the difference, now are they?

So - we have to work with what we CAN control... like our own internal job market.

You've really spat a couple of mouthfuls there that just plain don't make any sense...


"...high school kids woking at McDonalds would be making $12 an hour..."

Is only relevent, or even true, if McDonalds hired highschool kids. Which, for $12 per hour, they might not... preferring, instead to pick more productive parts of the worker pool.


"...Not only would that destroy our economy..."

No reason it should, and you don't give any.


"...The minimum wage serves to keep people working at less than a living wage..."

Not only does this not make logical sense, it isn't borne out by economic theory, either. If the 'cost of living' equates to $12 per hour, and you pay $12 per hour... how does that 'keep people working at less than a living wage'? Surely - situations where companies can pay stupid pittances (like $5 per hour, which is below the poverty line for a full time job), is what ACTUALLY 'keeps people working at less than a living wage'...?


"...Then, employers could pay part time high schoool kids less and could afford to pay others more..."

Again, this is just nonsense. Employers don't 'pay others more' because they can AFFORD it, they pay it because they MUST (for one reason or another). If McDonalds COULD pay 50 cents per hour, you know damned well they WOULD.

And... just what IS your obsession with 'high school kids'? If companies had a higher minimum wage, they would hire MORE PRODUCTIVE staff. Thus, shiftless teens would either LEARN a work ethic, or lose out on jobs to people who WILL work for a living.


"...The market will serve to ensure that employers don't try to pay anyone 50 cents an hour because no one would work there..."

Typical libertarian propoganda... and, as always with libertarian propoganda, it is based entirely on wishful thinking. Why do you think some of those immigrants work for $2 per hour? Because $2 is BETTER THAN NOTHING.

There are ALWAYS going to be SOME people desperate enough to take practically ANY job, for practically ANY wage. And this libertarian claptrap relies on a willful ignorance of that fact.

Free markets help corporations. The ONLY thing a free market gives the average citizen, is the freedom to get 'fucked by the man'.


"...It's the illegals that keep the wages where they get jobs down, not the other way around. They are paid so low because they're willing to work so low..."

Not only is this obviously untrue... it is not the 'fault of the low paid worker' that the company refuses to pay a decent wage... but if it WERE true, it would actually reinforce the call for a fair minimum wage.


Of course, all of this is unimportant, because the USA just plain wouldn't function, if you took away all the illegal help. The only reason the American economy is as strong as it is, is the SAME reason that the Roman economy was strong, and the same reason that the South was a risk to Northern industry.... 'slave' labour.

1. Why shold McDonalds be forced to pay ANYONE $12 an hour to work there? That's the biggest problem with the minimum wage. It foces companies to pay more than a particular job may be worth.

2. We can affect the Mexican economy positively with investment in their country. Having a strong Mexican economy would benefit not only Mexico, but us as well.

3. Forcing companies to pay higher wages than a particular unskilled position justifies would raise unemployment, raise prices for consumers, and cause inflation. Thus the destruction of our economy. Or at least a slow death.

4. the reason McDonalds would NOT pay 50 cents an hour if there were no minimum wage is that NO ONE WOULD WORK THERE. That's why, by the way, my ocal fast food joints pay $7 an hour to start.

5. Free markets help consumers by forcing competition between businesses for our patronage. Econ 101.

6. Depression of wages where ther are an abundance of illegal workers is not the fault of the workers, but it is a side effect of a flooded labor market. Hence the need to regulate immigration - which, by the way the US sucks at.

7. Are you advocating slave labor?

I didn't say a TOTAL breakdown (I don't think)... but can you honestly imagine what would happen if all that agricultural work just stopped, all that food packing? All that menial cleaning work, etc?

Considering the US 'government' can't manage to get TRAINED help on the ground after an anticipated disaster, I don't know how we'd manage the MASSIVE relocation that would be needed to keep just our food harvesting operational, much less, WHERE those workers would come from. A guy in a poorly-paid FULLTIME job, is unlikely to be willing to drop everything and jet halfway across the country for seasonal work.

There would be food shortages, and, no doubt, a wealth of other repurcussions that are just not even being imagined by the average person.

One solution to that scenario is to mandate registration of illegals for a guest worker program. By registering, the legitimate laborers that are here illegally could qualify for guest worker status and earn citizenship. those who don't register are subject to deportation. you need a carrot and a stick. IMO the one's that wouldn't register are probably criminals or have ulterior motives for staying hiden. Put the National Guard on the border to support the Border Patrol and shut down the border. Not exactly the cheapest option, but it could work. After all, it's partially the US government's fault there are so many illegals here anyway.

Try thinking before you speak. If there were suddenly a shortage of workers, businesses would have to RAISE wages to get more help. Simple supply and demand.
Why would there be a shortage of workers? People have to work and why would one company pay excessively more than any other? Companies have no incentive to not drop their wages to rock bottom for the average employee because the average employee would have nowhere else to go ebcause all those places will be doing the same thing. If anyone thought before they spoke, they wouldn't advise removing the minimum wage.

One solution to that scenario is to mandate registration of illegals for a guest worker program. By registering, the legitimate laborers that are here illegally could qualify for guest worker status and earn citizenship. those who don't register are subject to deportation. you need a carrot and a stick. IMO the one's that wouldn't register are probably criminals or have ulterior motives for staying hiden. Put the National Guard on the border to support the Border Patrol and shut down the border. Not exactly the cheapest option, but it could work. After all, it's partially the US government's fault there are so many illegals here anyway.

thats my opinion as well,well part of it at least..lol

i said pretty much the same a few quotes up,it seems obvious to me..why it is not to others is baffling.

Tell you what--when the US government really starts enforcing laws against companies that knowingly hire illegals, and I mean starts seizing assets and levying huge, punitive fines, then we can talk about how people crossing the border don't respect the laws. They wouldn't be coming here if there weren't people offering them better jobs than they could get back home. But the Minutemen (racist fucks that they are) don't want to believe that perhaps the US is as much to blame as the border-crossers are--it's a lot easier to play the "wetback spic stealing from us" card than it is to admit that US companies are taking advantage of these people, because to do that would require the Minutemen types to acknowledge that these border-crossers are, indeed, people.
I agree with you about US companies being at fault. The paradox is that the US talks about building stronger borders with Canada but forgetting that the back door is wide open. The other ironic thing is that the US enacts the Patriot Act that affects civil liberties in the US in the name of protecting the US from terrorism, and God knows who is entering the US from Mexico.

1. a southern border from the pacific to the gulf of mexico,and by border..i mean a 30 foot high wall,topped with concertina wire.
a no mans land in front of the wall for 50 yards or so,covered with mines.
every few hundred yards,remote firing stations working off of motion sensors,but will not shoot past our legal border.
guard towers that are manned with real soldiers,armed with sniper rifles and thermal imaging and night vision.
and serious patrols along our side of the wall by armed soldiers.
sign posts in as many languages as possible,stating that if you come within 100 yards of the area(likw around military bases)you will be attacked,danger/peligro/etc.also stating directions to legal crossing points!Reminds me of a particular piece of architecture from my home city...

Try thinking before you speak. If there were suddenly a shortage of workers, businesses would have to RAISE wages to get more help. Simple supply and demand.Where is this homo economicus that you've met and when can I meet him? Supply and demand only works if you exclude all other factors. It's never that simple.

Reminds me of a particular piece of architecture from my home city...
Yeah, I seem to remember a lot of celebrating when that came down as well. Dancing, sledgehammer wielding, David Hasselhoff singing--it was a real party.

1. a southern border from the pacific to the gulf of mexico,and by border..i mean a 30 foot high wall,topped with concertina wire.
a no mans land in front of the wall for 50 yards or so,covered with mines.
every few hundred yards,remote firing stations working off of motion sensors,but will not shoot past our legal border.
guard towers that are manned with real soldiers,armed with sniper rifles and thermal imaging and night vision.
and serious patrols along our side of the wall by armed soldiers.
sign posts in as many languages as possible,stating that if you come within 100 yards of the area(likw around military bases)you will be attacked,danger/peligro/etc.also stating directions to legal crossing points!

You know, not even counting your remote firing stations, which cost god-knows-what, you're talking about a $4 billion wall, give or take. Who is going to pay for that?

You know, not even counting your remote firing stations, which cost god-knows-what, you're talking about a $4 billion wall, give or take. Who is going to pay for that?The GDR did. If the Commies can do it, so can we! :p

From that 'minuteman' manifesto someone had posted...

"A Minuteman believes that just as ethnicity, race, religion and all such factors are incidental and do not affect our God-given, constitutional equality as American citizens"...

You'll note that, quite clearly, 'equality' only extends as far as American citizens...
And you might note that constitutionally, they're right. If people want the same benefits, they have two choices. The can legally immigrate, or they can forment revolution and set up a government in their own counry along the lines of ours and manage to keep the corruption levels from draining away the majority of the county's resources.

1. Why shold McDonalds be forced to pay ANYONE $12 an hour to work there? That's the biggest problem with the minimum wage. It foces companies to pay more than a particular job may be worth.


This is logically flawed. If a job MUST be paid at $12 per hour, then it is 'worth' $12 per hour. If the employer decides they'd rather leave a vacancy than cover that cost, then the job was not 'worth it' overall.

It's a cost, just like fuel or raw materials, Big business needs to quit bitching and whining about how 'expensive' labour IS... because, for the most part, it is the ONE part of the process that can't be exchanged.

The whole assertion that a minimum wage CAN be 'more than it is worth' is ridiculous, anyway... and we only even THINK about such a 'consideration' because our culture feels justified milking the ABSOLUTE maximum 'value' out of everything. Example... a process costs an extra $5 per hour, but ADDS $5.50 of chargable 'cost' per hour.

Our grasp of the economic model says 'hell yeah, hire an extra minion, and make the work for $5'. But, often, there is no real gain to anyone apart from those eyeing the overall profit margin, for that 'extra hire'. And that is the only 'risk' of the minimum wage at a reasonable level... nominal 'value' is no longer 'worth' it.

Overall, I don't see a loss of 'unneeded value', as a BIG loss.


2. We can affect the Mexican economy positively with investment in their country. Having a strong Mexican economy would benefit not only Mexico, but us as well.


Working SO well in Iraq.... you make an assertion, but it has no automatic, logical, basis.


3. Forcing companies to pay higher wages than a particular unskilled position justifies would raise unemployment, raise prices for consumers, and cause inflation. Thus the destruction of our economy. Or at least a slow death.


I don't believe you. The same arguments were made for ANY minimum wage, and it has never been validated yet.


4. the reason McDonalds would NOT pay 50 cents an hour if there were no minimum wage is that NO ONE WOULD WORK THERE. That's why, by the way, my ocal fast food joints pay $7 an hour to start.


You have no idea. It's a nice assertion, but ignores the harsh reality of life.


5. Free markets help consumers by forcing competition between businesses for our patronage. Econ 101.


Freedom through force? Sounds a little contradictory to me.

It's a nice idea, but it just doesn't hold true. Look at cellular technology in the US. There is minimal competition, because the proto-monopolies buy out all their competition... and where competition DOES exist, there is no real appeal for the industry to charge the LOWEST profit-making cost.... so they all make minimal cuts for the look of the thing.


6. Depression of wages where ther are an abundance of illegal workers is not the fault of the workers, but it is a side effect of a flooded labor market. Hence the need to regulate immigration - which, by the way the US sucks at.


The US would have unemployment without immigrants (legal OR illegal). Do you advocate we ship some of the legal residents off too?


7. Are you advocating slave labor?

No. Almost exactly the opposite. I'm just pointing out that the US economy is BASED on slavery.

One solution to that scenario is to mandate registration of illegals for a guest worker program. By registering, the legitimate laborers that are here illegally could qualify for guest worker status and earn citizenship. those who don't register are subject to deportation. you need a carrot and a stick. IMO the one's that wouldn't register are probably criminals or have ulterior motives for staying hiden. Put the National Guard on the border to support the Border Patrol and shut down the border. Not exactly the cheapest option, but it could work. After all, it's partially the US government's fault there are so many illegals here anyway.

Any policy that requires making the border into a militarised zone, is doomed to failure. It would be PHENOMENALLY expensive, and minimally effective for the cost.

And, as I pointed out, if you finally COULD make the South border unpassable, people would just come in through some OTHER point.

Short of building a huge wall around the ENTIRE U.S. you cannot STOP immigration.

Annexing Mexico would be a 'better' plan, and cheaper in the long run. AND leave a MUCH smaller southern border to defend.

The problem is, the insane nationalism of 'Americans'. If you told the average citizen that a third of all the taxes the government collects this year, were going to be spent on realtime improvements to Mexico, you'd have people crying revolution, at such a 'waste of money', and 'spending hard-earned dollars on foreigners'. The irony is - it would reduce illegal immigration drastically, AND build our Southern neighbour as a realistic partner for trade... AND as a partner in reducing OTHER sources of illegal ingress.

And you might note that constitutionally, they're right. If people want the same benefits, they have two choices. The can legally immigrate, or they can forment revolution and set up a government in their own counry along the lines of ours and manage to keep the corruption levels from draining away the majority of the county's resources.

Irrelevent.

I don't care about the 'benefits'.

I'm talking about the fact the manifesto establishes a possible disparity in equality.

If it ain't equal, it ain't equality.

The GDR did. If the Commies can do it, so can we! :p

The GDR didn't build a 1950 mile long wall, though. And remote motion-detecting turrets? Nothing could possibly go wrong with those.

Reminds me of a particular piece of architecture from my home city...
Nothing Like a Berlin wall huh? There is a big divide between Canada\US and the rest of North and South America. It's almost like the division of East West Europe. My idea is to get a bunch of people out there and pretend to plant mines, then put the mine warning signs, It'll at least stall them for a few weeks.