NationStates Jolt Archive

Read the title. I'll post it again in case you didn't read it.

What if the war of independence was won by us British? What would history be like?

I think maybe th British Empire would still be intact, and we would be on the brink of forming a global government, while foreign nations would be fighting a war against everybody, we would be assimilating the peoples, and would form a global government. Everything would be more efficient, and the world would be peaceful.

Anybody?

We'd try a gain a few years later.

We'd try again a few years later.

Or you'd be content and realise that life is very good under our empire.

Either we'd try again as the previous poster said or we'd go the way of Canada and Australia and breaking from the British empire peacefully years down the road and adopt a parliamentary system of government instead of our current system.

Read the title. I'll post it again in case you didn't read it.

What if the war of independence was won by us British? What would history be like?

I think maybe th British Empire would still be intact, and we would be on the brink of forming a global government, while foreign nations would be fighting a war against everybody, we would be assimilating the peoples, and would form a global government. Everything would be more efficient, and the world would be peaceful.

Anybody?

Oh fuck no. As oppressive and slimy as the English Crown was, the world would be even worse. There's peace, and then there's "peace", which is full-on totalitarianism, public executions and all.

Oh fuck no. As oppressive and slimy as the English Crown was, the world would be even worse. There's peace, and then there's "peace", which is full-on totalitarianism, public executions and all.
By this stage Parliament was already weakening the influence of the Crown within the UK. And what public executions, if I may ask?

Read The Two Georges by Harry Turtledove. It gives an excellent appraisal of what such a situation would be like. It's the early 21st Century, and the British Empire still exists, including the North American Union and Canada. The Empire's principal foe is a combined French-Spanish religious alliance and skirmishes in Mexico.

The fastest method of transport is the military bi-plane and civilians move around in steam-powered cars and huge blimps. There are hardly any gunshot crimes throughout the NAU, but the terrorist organisation Sons of Liberty operate to try and dissemble the NAU and seccede from the Empire.

Had the initial rebellion been crushed: I think there would probably have been a more Canadian style move to Dominion status then full independence. However, beyond a few years afterwards it becomes impossible to predict.

There could easily have been a second Revolution, with more support than about a third of the population, leading to full independence.

Alternatively, there could have been a later Revolution, with Western territories going independent, and the East Coast fighting Britain's side. Who knows?

By this stage Parliament was already weakening the influence of the Crown within the UK. And what public executions, if I may ask?

Since this is fantasy, I went along with it. Who's to say they wouldn't reinstate public executions?

I'm saying that both are equally ridiculous.

Read The Two Georges by Harry Turtledove. It gives an excellent appraisal of what such a situation would be like. It's the early 21st Century, and the British Empire still exists, including the North American Union and Canada. The Empire's principal foe is a combined French-Spanish religious alliance and skirmishes in Mexico.

The fastest method of transport is the military bi-plane and civilians move around in steam-powered cars and huge blimps. There are hardly any gunshot crimes throughout the NAU, but the terrorist organisation Sons of Liberty operate to try and dissemble the NAU and seccede from the Empire.

I see your view.

By the way, I don't think you posted on one of my old threads apologising for mass branding. I just hope you realise that I'm sorry.

Since this is fantasy, I went along with it. Who's to say they wouldn't reinstate public executions?

I'm saying that both are equally ridiculous.
It's fantasy, yeah, but by this stage Parliament was sovereign already. For public executions to take place, it would have to have the support of the people.

Read The Two Georges by Harry Turtledove. It gives an excellent appraisal of what such a situation would be like. It's the early 21st Century, and the British Empire still exists, including the North American Union and Canada. The Empire's principal foe is a combined French-Spanish religious alliance and skirmishes in Mexico.

The fastest method of transport is the military bi-plane and civilians move around in steam-powered cars and huge blimps. There are hardly any gunshot crimes throughout the NAU, but the terrorist organisation Sons of Liberty operate to try and dissemble the NAU and seccede from the Empire.

Kewl. I'm going to look into this book. I love history :)

The English Crown was not overly totalitarian or oppressive in the late 18th century, just made some remarkably poor decisions with respect to colonial policy.

Besides which, it shows a remarkably poor grasp of history to 1) refer to it as the 'English' crown, since it had been the British crown officially since 1707. And 2) refer to the crown running things, when Parliament ran the show.

Give you the public executions, but that was the same anywhere. Think guillotine.

Well, if the British won the war they would probably put more annoying tax policies in place to punish the colonies, and another war would take place a decade later or so.

However, the British did start treating their colonies better after the American Revolution, and has only given them up relatively recently. But, even if they did start treating America better, they would probably still end up seceding along with India and Canada.

Of course, the interesting thing to think of is how this would affect future wars for international survival, such as WWI and WWII...

It's fantasy, yeah, but by this stage Parliament was sovereign already. For public executions to take place, it would have to have the support of the people.

I guess so.

Either way, it's a depressing thing to think about.

Has Harry Turtledove got everywhere first, as far as alternate history is concerned?...:D

What if the war of independence was won by us British? What would history be like?

We'd all be speaking italian :eek:

I guess so.

Either way, it's a depressing thing to think about.
If Britain ran the part of the world it controlled well, hardly so. The idea of the USA becoming a world dictatorship is equally depressing.

Here's a thought. What if King George the Third accepted the Olive Branch Petition?

If Britain ran the part of the world it controlled well, hardly so. The idea of the USA becoming a world dictatorship is equally depressing.

Got that right. Ugh.

Either we'd try again as the previous poster said or we'd go the way of Canada and Australia and breaking from the British empire peacefully years down the road and adopt a parliamentary system of government instead of our current system.

Yah, I have to agree there. I almost wonder if Canada and Australia were smarter for going the peaceful route, but at the same time I wonder if the Brits pulled the same kinda crap with them that provoked the war in the first place xp
"We're gonna charge you an assload of taxes because we feel like it and you won't see a dime of this ever again but we'll raise hell if you have any complaints"

Has Harry Turtledove got everywhere first, as far as alternate history is concerned?...:D

Basically, between him and Harry Harrison, they rule Alternate History. Turtledove's Post-Civil War where the South won has gotten kinda bland now its in WW2 stages, but he's a damn good writer.

Canada would be a lot larger. The Spanish colonies would still have fought for independence, although maybe much later than they originally did. I think the British Empire would still have broken off. Germany still would have had expansionist desires in the 20th C, and unless the British had allowed immigration to America in the same numbers as the US did in the 19th C, causing a different population distribution in Europe.

YAY!! theoretical history!!

I think I'll have some leftover pizza for lunch...with chocolate milk :D

Yah, I have to agree there. I almost wonder if Canada and Australia were smarter for going the peaceful route, but at the same time I wonder if the Brits pulled the same kinda crap with them that provoked the war in the first place xp
"We're gonna charge you an assload of taxes because we feel like it and you won't see a dime of this ever again but we'll raise hell if you have any complaints"
Didn't Britain merely want to tax the colonies what it had been taxing it's domestic citizenry?

If Britain ran the part of the world it controlled well, hardly so. The idea of the USA becoming a world dictatorship is equally depressing.

Perhaps, but it does have a greater likelihood, no?

You know, we have a right to own firearms in the US. I think the oppressed Brits would learn to be content and realise that life is very good under our Republic.;)

Basically, between him and Harry Harrison, they rule Alternate History. Turtledove's Post-Civil War where the South won has gotten kinda bland now its in WW2 stages, but he's a damn good writer.

Wait for The Grapple to come out. I hear its going to be a good one :)

I believe so. But I think the difference was it was putting a lot more money into it's homeland than it was into the colonies.

Didn't Britain merely want to tax the colonies what it had been taxing it's domestic citizenry?

I'm pretty sure that's all they were doing. At least, that's what my history books tell me.

Hmm.

There was a book about this. Year of the Hangman.

Probably the war would have resumed later on. Let's assume that the British held onto America until Napoleonic times.

If the French Revelution and Napoleon's rise to powerhad still happened, the U.S. probably would have thrown their lot in with Napoleon in return for independence.

After the resulting defeat of the British, Napoleon would laugh at America and say, "You're mine now! Mwahaha!"

America would begin a second revolution.

After Napoleon's death, America would throw off French rule, but become independent too late to become a real world power anytime soon.

Europe would be full of revelutions and civil war, as the Napoleonic Empire began to break up. Japan would remain isolated, and Spain would still be in control of most of South America.

African colonialism would never happen.

Perhaps, but it does have a greater likelihood, no?
In the past, perhaps. Of course, things may change drastically and put the US back in the centre-stage. :)

You know, we have a right to own firearms in the US. I think the oppressed Brits would learn to be content and realise that life is very good under our Republic.;)
Freedom at long last :eek:

Didn't Britain merely want to tax the colonies what it had been taxing it's domestic citizenry?

Yep, but then they started adding smaller taxes. And the fact that they weren't doing much positively for the colonies due to their distance didn't make the taxes seem very fair to the ignorant masses.

Didn't Britain merely want to tax the colonies what it had been taxing it's domestic citizenry?
Pretty much. But what irked them is that they weren't getting the same rights as the people in the metropolis. They were paying for the whole hog but getting just half a sausage in return.

Yep, but then they started adding smaller taxes. And the fact that they weren't doing much positively for the colonies due to their distance didn't make the taxes seem very fair to the ignorant masses.
Indeed. I think taxation was more an excuse for a long-held desire for secession rather than the cause itself.

Wait for The Grapple to come out. I hear its going to be a good one :)

The Grapple? I am intrigued and it sounds slightly familiar. Explain please.

EDIT: Bah, that The Grapple. I read the first of that series and couldn't believe how bad it was. The characters I loved in the last two trilogies/quadrilogies were basically gone, replaced by generic characters, and the dialogue was bad. Oh, and the action scenes were just abysmal. I couldn't believe this was the same man who had written Guns of the South.

I'll ask this question again as it seemed to have gotten ignored.

What if King George III accepted the Olive Branch Petition.

Indeed. I think taxation was more an excuse for a long-held desire for secession rather than the cause itself.
Look at American economic history. Every motive points to saving cash. :p

The Grapple? I am intrigued and it sounds slightly familiar. Explain please.

Its book 3 of the settling accounts triology done by Harry Turtledove.

What if the war of independence was won by us British? What would history be like?
We'd eventually become independent, one way or the other. Or, the colonies would never have expanded over the Appalacian mountains, and France and Spain would own the rest of what is today the USA.

There could easily have been a second Revolution, with more support than about a third of the population, leading to full independence.

Alternatively, there could have been a later Revolution, with Western territories going independent, and the East Coast fighting Britain's side. Who knows?

it would probably depend on the nature of the crushing of the revolution. i would not be at all surprised if the surviving revolutionaries headed west (a sort of inversion of the loyalists packing up and heading to jamaica and canada during and after the revolution).

Read the title. I'll post it again in case you didn't read it.

What if the war of independence was won by us British? What would history be like?

I think maybe th British Empire would still be intact, and we would be on the brink of forming a global government, while foreign nations would be fighting a war against everybody, we would be assimilating the peoples, and would form a global government. Everything would be more efficient, and the world would be peaceful.

Anybody?


I think something of that size would be too unstable and break down eventually anyway. The world's too big and diverse to act as one big nation with so many laws, people with different beliefs will just keep fighting; just look at what happened to India! People ultimately want to feel that their lives are being controlled by themselves, not some far-away country that they had never seen. As far as I know, no modern empire still exists today, and states within countries such as Ireland and Russia are fighting for independance; breaking countries up even further.

I'll ask this question again as it seemed to have gotten ignored.

What if King George III accepted the Olive Branch Petition.
I think that is a marveous question and deserves some response. Unfortunately, I am as well versed in 17th century revolutionary politics as I am in quantum physics, therefore I will leave the GOOD posting to others infintely more qualified then myself.

Secondary question: WHY would he have accepted that?

Look at American economic history. Every motive points to saving cash. :p
A nation born of Capitalism :eek:

I think that is a marveous question and deserves some response. Unfortunately, I am as well versed in 17th century revolutionary politics as I am in quantum physics, therefore I will leave the GOOD posting to others infintely more qualified then myself.

Secondary question: WHY would he have accepted that?

Well it would've ended the rebellion, allowed us to have full rights as englishmen, and possibily representation in parliment.

Well it would've ended the rebellion, allowed us to have full rights as englishmen, and possibily representation in parliment.

That's not answering my question. Why would King George have accepted it? He had the largest military in the world and these upstart ignorant colonists were demanding things of HIM?! I'm American by the way, but this is the way the majority of those landed gentry in Britian would ahve veiwed such a thing. At least, I think so.

That's not answering my question. Why would King George have accepted it? He had the largest military in the world and these upstart ignorant colonists were demanding things of HIM?! I'm American by the way, but this is the way the majority of those landed gentry in Britian would ahve veiwed such a thing. At least, I think so.
They would gain rights slowly, but surely, as all citizens eventually did in 20th Century Britain. The nation basically crushed every rebellion within, yet a universal suffrage did eventually come about. King George, in domestic matters, was greatly under the influence of Parliament.

A nation born of Capitalism :eek:
Jesus invented Capitalism. Its only logical.

They would gain rights slowly, but surely, as all citizens eventually did in 20th Century Britain. The nation basically crushed every rebellion within, yet a universal suffrage did eventually come about. King George, in domestic matters, was greatly under the influence of Parliament.
Still not answering. My question was why would it have been accepted. Not the final effects of said acceptance, but teh CAUSES behind its acceptance.

And are you saying it was less King George and more Parliment that regected the proposals?

Everything would be more efficient, and the world would be peaceful.Anybody?
Not really. In order to maintain said world government you'd need a tremendous amount of force, which would most likely lead to oppression of certain rebellious member-states.

And besides, even if you Brits won the War, look what happened to you after the French-Indian War/7 Yrs War. You were in paralyzing debt and once again, you will probably pay for it through taxing your [unrepresented] subjects, which would probably lead to another revolution somewhere else. So if the revolutions don't succeed for the other countries, you'll be caught in that vicious cycle.

Still not answering. My question was why would it have been accepted. Not the final effects of said acceptance, but teh CAUSES behind its acceptance.
Perhaps to avoid a repetition of the scenario? Even though King George had a huge army, it would be uneconomic to engage in constant warfare.

And are you saying it was less King George and more Parliment that regected the proposals?
Parliament gradually gained more and more power. If Britain had won the war, it might have curbed the King's power further, and taken control of the situation.

Still not answering. My question was why would it have been accepted.

To keep us inside the British Empire on our own accord instead of keeping us inside of it via force of arms.

And are you saying it was less King George and more Parliment that regected the proposals?

It was the King who rejected it I believe. We actually had strong support in parliment.

Jesus invented Capitalism. Its only logical.
And who dares disobey the will of the Lord, Our Saviour. ;)

Wait for The Grapple to come out. I hear its going to be a good one :)
dude, i can't wait for that. did you know there's gonna be 4 books in this part? man, i can't wait. this one will probably end with dday/assassination attempt. wonder what d day would be? invasion of cuba? sounds pointless

dude, i can't wait for that. did you know there's gonna be 4 books in this part? man, i can't wait. this one will probably end with dday/assassination attempt. wonder what d day would be? invasion of cuba? sounds pointless
Maybe New Orleans. You know, to keep it French and all. Then march to Richmond.

dude, i can't wait for that. did you know there's gonna be 4 books in this part? man, i can't wait. this one will probably end with dday/assassination attempt. wonder what d day would be? invasion of cuba? sounds pointless

This is similiar to the EASTERN FRONT. I don't know if Germany will launch an invasion somewhere though. I doubt it.

As for assassination, probably with Nathan Bradford III and Clarence Potter being the perpetrators of said assassination.

Actually, continuing on from my previous theory, somewhere along the line of conquering Europe, Napoleon would probably see the Vatican as a threat to his power, as people's loyalty would be to the church not him.

As a result, he would forcibly disband it, and Catholicism, at least in it's current organized form would not exist.

Britain was in debt, because having a population far smaller than France, she had to have a national debt to compete, rather than do it by taxation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Americans were complaining over Customs duties, rather than strictly speaking taxation.

Anyways, 's all interesting stuff. I might be interested in Rping something like it, however I'm heavily involved with another RP right now. Still, twould be fun to see how it turned out.

Britain was in debt, because having a population far smaller than France, she had to have a national debt to compete, rather than do it by taxation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Americans were complaining over Customs duties, rather than strictly speaking taxation.


Which begs the question, if they had kept control of America, and kept taxing them, (perhaps with representation, perhaps without) would they have been able to get out of debt?

Indeed. I think taxation was more an excuse for a long-held desire for secession rather than the cause itself.

Wasn't the 'revolution' actually a very small minority? Didn't it start out as a little faction, and only get more 'popular' because of the response?

Europe would be full of revelutions and civil war, as the Napoleonic Empire began to break up. Japan would remain isolated, and Spain would still be in control of most of South America.

Actually, Russia would have opened up Japan. Japan would have largely followed the same course it followed in history, except they'd probably have won the Phillipines from Spain and bought Alaska and Hawai'i from Russia and Britain respectively and they would have effectively ruled Pacific Asia. They might have gotten into a war with the Soviet Union, which would have effectively ended their little empire (or they would have fought the Soviet Union to a stalemate). Of course, they probably would have lost Manchukuo and Korea to the Soviets, but that's neither here nor there.

This is similiar to the EASTERN FRONT. I don't know if Germany will launch an invasion somewhere though. I doubt it.

As for assassination, probably with Nathan Bradford III and Clarence Potter being the perpetrators of said assassination.

If I recall my readings properly, Imperial Germany was fighting and slowly losing ground to Tsarist Russia, France, and Great Britain.

think about it a world full of tea and crumpets how wonderful but on another note if Australia had still been colonised it would be less developed due to Britain continuing to send convicts to America this could of led to America's industrial power being made earlier and the system of transportation lasting longer due to reduced cost also Britain wouldn’t of discovered that its cheaper to trade than to rule (this is due to defence costs ect) making the first age of imperialism last much longer (or going on indefinably)

The national debt was too vast for the American colonies to make much difference on the capital, ISTR. Though it made the interest payments a bit easier.

I recall seeing somewhere that it was a 3-way split, into roughly equal factions, of Loyalists, Rebels and Don't Knows. I don't know what stage that was though. I think mid-Revolution.

well the first real impact of a british victory over what was to become the US would have been in the Carribean, with the Hatian revolution most likely failing or not coming into existance at all. With the worries of the southern colinial slave economy on thier mind it is likely that Britian would have been stayed in the slave trade much longer, maybe even it would still be going on now - certainly North America would have been more resistant to abolishing slavery without the large influx of immigrants the new US encourged which George III was actively opposing before the revolution. France and the French Revolution would have also seen a major impact in Britain winning the war, the Declaration of the Rights Of Man would have been much less likely if the Declaration of Independance had not resulted in Independance - posssibly Louis would have retained the throne under a system comparable to that of the British monarchs. Back in the new world, had the war been sucessful for the British it is unlikely the North American colonies would have been allowed expand and the British would have made every effort to keep the area balkanized - I suspect North America of today would look a lot like Africa does, as would South America although perhaps to a lesser extent. Without the release valve of immigration to the US in Europe, Ireland would have doubtless have been a far bloodier mess and the summer of revolution would probably have occured earlier and started in Germany.

Actually, Russia would have opened up Japan. Japan would have largely followed the same course it followed in history, except they'd probably have won the Phillipines from Spain and bought Alaska and Hawai'i from Russia and Britain respectively and they would have effectively ruled Pacific Asia. They might have gotten into a war with the Soviet Union, which would have effectively ended their little empire (or they would have fought the Soviet Union to a stalemate). Of course, they probably would have lost Manchukuo and Korea to the Soviets, but that's neither here nor there.


Well, as far as my predictions went, Russia would probably have a war on it's hands until the Napoleonic Empire collapsed, but I suppose that after that they may well have opened up Japan.

As far as the Soviet Union goes, my understanding was that it was a very unique set of circumstances that allowed it to suceed, namely, the ongoing war in Europe, the tzarina consulting with a sorcerer, and key figures such as Lenin and Marx.

All in all, a side effect that I didn't think of, partly because I didn't go that far, was that the Soviet Union may well never have been formed. But then, I'm no historian.

In the 1850s, I don't think the Russians were too busy fighting Napoleon, considering that he was dead.... But, anyway, if Russia didn't open Japan up, France, England, Spain, someone would have. As it was, the US only managed to barely squeak in as the one to open Japan up (Russia was planning on opening her up the next year and Britain had similar ideas). And none of that would have changed Japan's reaction of destroying the Shogunal government, establishing a monarchical/parliamentary government (so long as Great Britain still had hers), and establishing Empire.

It was the fact of these immensely powerful ships turning up at their door that did it for Japan, not the fact that they were American. So that much is true.

In the 1850s, I don't think the Russians were too busy fighting Napoleon, considering that he was dead.... But, anyway, if Russia didn't open Japan up, France, England, Spain, someone would have. As it was, the US only managed to barely squeak in as the one to open Japan up (Russia was planning on opening her up the next year and Britain had similar ideas). And none of that would have changed Japan's reaction of destroying the Shogunal government, establishing a monarchical/parliamentary government (so long as Great Britain still had hers), and establishing Empire.



First, the Napoleonic Empire probably would have lasted for a while after Napoleon's death.

Second, Britain, France, and Spain are, as far as my scenario goes still locked in civil war. China hadn't industrialized, either.

So except for maybe some Dutch Traders, Russia the only one left (maybe) capable of forcing trade with Japan

Read the title. I'll post it again in case you didn't read it.

What if the war of independence was won by us British? What would history be like?

I think maybe th British Empire would still be intact, and we would be on the brink of forming a global government, while foreign nations would be fighting a war against everybody, we would be assimilating the peoples, and would form a global government. Everything would be more efficient, and the world would be peaceful.

Anybody?

Britain learnt many lessons from the War of Independence, that ensured greater freedom was given to other parts of the Empire - at least where there were Europeans in control. However, defeat was necessary for the lessons to be learnt and overall I feel the Empire was stronger for learning the lessons of defeat rather than the complacency of victory.

"Wasn't the 'revolution' actually a very small minority? Didn't it start out as a little faction, and only get more 'popular' because of the response?"
Quite, but Britain had to learn not to be so stupid. To a certain extend it did learn the lesson, although the Easter Rising was uncannily similar.

"The Easter Rising was uncannily similar."

??

I admit I don't know the history of the Easter Rising hugely well, but surely the Irish situation in the early 20th century, and the American in the late 18th, are two very different things?

Read the title. I'll post it again in case you didn't read it.

What if the war of independence was won by us British? What would history be like?

I think maybe th British Empire would still be intact, and we would be on the brink of forming a global government, while foreign nations would be fighting a war against everybody, we would be assimilating the peoples, and would form a global government. Everything would be more efficient, and the world would be peaceful.

Anybody?

God, we know ur British cause u must be smoking from the bong.....More efficent more peaceful....god i knew u Brits where haughty but....DAM! u is stupid. One history would've been more hetic because with Britian still having a large oversea empire the other European countries would have been in a constant struggle to take over more countries and territories...more peaceful...maybe for the homeland but not the other lands. Plus u brits would've probably just stripped the land bare and sent all resources to England.....Dont ever post dumb crap like this again.....sheesh

Eh! Cool it, mate.

Yeah, the OP had a slightly odd take on things. But I'm not sure I have to stand for god i knew u Brits where haughty but....DAM! u is stupid.
His view is odd, but not totally invalid.

God, we know ur British cause u must be smoking from the bong.....More efficent more peaceful....god i knew u Brits where haughty but....DAM! u is stupid. One history would've been more hetic because with Britian still having a large oversea empire the other European countries would have been in a constant struggle to take over more countries and territories...more peaceful...maybe for the homeland but not the other lands. Plus u brits would've probably just stripped the land bare and sent all resources to England.....Dont ever post dumb crap like this again.....sheesh

You know, there are some good points in here but you would have made a much better point without the meaningless insults, and if you had used proper grammar.

Anyways, even if America had remained British, there would have been other rebellions, and England would have learnt the same lesson.

That much is clear. If one third of the population have actively opposed you...

I think some level of autonomy would have quite swiftly resulted, otherwise a revolution a generation later would have succeeded.

Fact remains the original, RL war could easily have gone the other way, especially if the French had been slapped down at the appropriate time.

God, we know ur British cause u must be smoking from the bong.....More efficent more peaceful....god i knew u Brits where haughty but....DAM! u is stupid. One history would've been more hetic because with Britian still having a large oversea empire the other European countries would have been in a constant struggle to take over more countries and territories...more peaceful...maybe for the homeland but not the other lands. Plus u brits would've probably just stripped the land bare and sent all resources to England.....Dont ever post dumb crap like this again.....sheesh
As long as you don't either ;)

"The Easter Rising was uncannily similar."

??

I admit I don't know the history of the Easter Rising hugely well, but surely the Irish situation in the early 20th century, and the American in the late 18th, are two very different things?

In both cases a small rebellion that could became popular through the ham fisted response, fuelled by indignation over reason.

This is similiar to the EASTERN FRONT. I don't know if Germany will launch an invasion somewhere though. I doubt it.

As for assassination, probably with Nathan Bradford III and Clarence Potter being the perpetrators of said assassination.

Christ. Now I want to start reading the series again. I have the first one around, fully read I think. Possinly I should pick up the second one sometime. Gah...just don't read Homeward Bound. Seriously. Worse book ever written, and now just by Turtledove.

Incidentally, since I'm thinking of setting a story in my Post Napoleonic Europe, does anyone know the life expectancy in Britain during the 1830s?

I want to know if it's feasible to have a veteran of the American Insurgency be the ringleader of a British underground revelutionary group.

Read the title. I'll post it again in case you didn't read it.

What if the war of independence was won by us British? What would history be like?

I think maybe th British Empire would still be intact, and we would be on the brink of forming a global government, while foreign nations would be fighting a war against everybody, we would be assimilating the peoples, and would form a global government. Everything would be more efficient, and the world would be peaceful.

Anybody?

Given that most of the former English colonies are just that -- FORMER -- I think nothing much would be different... unless you're thinking the US breaking away is the only reason the British Empire is so reduced these days?

(I'm an American and even *I* don't think the US breaking away spelled the end of the Empire.)

Christ. Now I want to start reading the series again. I have the first one around, fully read I think. Possinly I should pick up the second one sometime. Gah...just don't read Homeward Bound. Seriously. Worse book ever written, and now just by Turtledove.

I actually like Homeward Bound.

As to this thread, I'm sure that we would've gained our independence in due time.

I'm pretty sure that's all they were doing. At least, that's what my history books tell me.

They also were taxing the American colonies and not giving them any say as to how the money would be used or how they would be governed, nor a voice in Parliament at all, hence the slogan, "No Taxation without Representation!"

Read the title. I'll post it again in case you didn't read it.

What if the war of independence was won by us British? What would history be like?

I think maybe th British Empire would still be intact, and we would be on the brink of forming a global government, while foreign nations would be fighting a war against everybody, we would be assimilating the peoples, and would form a global government. Everything would be more efficient, and the world would be peaceful.

Anybody?

and i would have to register my steak knives...no thanks..lol

Read the title. I'll post it again in case you didn't read it.

What if the war of independence was won by us British? What would history be like?

I think maybe th British Empire would still be intact, and we would be on the brink of forming a global government, while foreign nations would be fighting a war against everybody, we would be assimilating the peoples, and would form a global government. Everything would be more efficient, and the world would be peaceful.

Anybody?

Canada would be fucking huge.

Canada would be fucking huge.

:rolleyes: I would have to say that this is utter B.S.

I'd say that the world would have fewer democracies then it does now. If the United States never got its independence then other nations who were inspired by our revolution and governmental ideas would never have followed suit. The French Revolution comes to mind as an example. History would obviously have been drastically different.

:rolleyes: I would have to say that this is utter B.S.

I would be inclined to agree.

Incidentally, since I'm thinking of setting a story in my Post Napoleonic Europe, does anyone know the life expectancy in Britain during the 1830s?

I want to know if it's feasible to have a veteran of the American Insurgency be the ringleader of a British underground revelutionary group. no need to know life expectancy, just figure out how old he would be in both times. A junior officer /non-officer of the US revolution could have been born as late 1765 (later even, ensigns/midshipmen as young as 12 were not uncommon). This would make a young officer 70 in 1835, old but not unheard of. An officer is the best choice, private soldiers (enlisted) tended to live pretty rough lives in the period not conducive to longetivity (btw, estimated life expentency of someone in the UK born at the begining of the US revolution was under 40, does not mean people did not live longer however). Because of the system of buying commisions, our potential rebel could have even been a major in the US revolution while being born 1760, although I think making them an ensign/midshipman and assigning a DOB of 1770ish would be an interesting way of handling things, having them come into the war late.

If I recall my readings properly, Imperial Germany was fighting and slowly losing ground to Tsarist Russia, France, and Great Britain.

I believe you are right. I'll have to check on that though.

Christ. Now I want to start reading the series again. I have the first one around, fully read I think. Possinly I should pick up the second one sometime. Gah...just don't read Homeward Bound. Seriously. Worse book ever written, and now just by Turtledove.

But but I loved Homeward Bound!

*cries and runs to her bf for comfort*

But but I loved Homeward Bound!

*cries and runs to her bf for comfort*

Hardly his best. Turtledove's best to me is the origionals, the "WorldWar" series. Homeward Bound was pretty lame actually.

Hardly his best. Turtledove's best to me is the origionals, the "WorldWar" series. Homeward Bound was pretty lame actually.

His World War series was outstanding as was his first 2 books of his Colonization Series. I did like Homeward Bound, it had great stuff but yea it really wasn't his best but it was still a nice read.

First, the Napoleonic Empire probably would have lasted for a while after Napoleon's death.

Second, Britain, France, and Spain are, as far as my scenario goes still locked in civil war. China hadn't industrialized, either.

So except for maybe some Dutch Traders, Russia the only one left (maybe) capable of forcing trade with Japan

Wait... how would the Napoleonic Empire come about if King Louis XVI wasn't bankrupt from supporting the American Revolution, though? Maybe you covered that, but I'm afraid that I don't recall properly. And, given what I know about how well things (don't) go for nations run by tyrants after the tyrant is dead, I'm not entirely certain that a Napoleonic Empire would still be standing.

Or you'd be content and realise that life is very good under our empire.
The United States probably would have been independent eventually anyway but without the "parting in anger" that happened when the U.S. won the Revolutionary War.

Wait... how would the Napoleonic Empire come about if King Louis XVI wasn't bankrupt from supporting the American Revolution, though? Maybe you covered that, but I'm afraid that I don't recall properly. And, given what I know about how well things (don't) go for nations run by tyrants after the tyrant is dead, I'm not entirely certain that a Napoleonic Empire would still be standing.Well Louis wasn't bankrupt just from supporting the American revolution, in fact the French expense there was minimal really. I myself tend to believe without a sucessful American Revolution for the Estates General to look at, that Louis would have achieved a consitutional monarchy. Regardless Napoleon could have overthrown Louis as he did the Directorate. Provided he managed to find some way to distingush himself enough to be given a general command and didn't die at Toulon and any of a million other little things which could have derailed his rise to Emperor didn't happen despite the American Revolution having been unsucessful - like the British have enough extra troops to have intervened in Italy or Austria and so on.

The U.S. would of probaly followed the same route that Canada did. It would of ended up not as industrilised and not a world power. There also wouldn't have been the mass immigration of people into the U.S. in the late 19th century. After WWI, Britain would of ended up as the largest world power. The Pacific theater of WWII would of been dominated by Japan since there would be no large industrialized allied nation with a pacific coastline. If the allies won WWII, which would of been hard, (I'm not saying the U.S. won WWII. I'm just saying that the Allies needed all the help they could get.) England would of become the superpower opposite of the U.S.S.R. However, with its decaying empire and small size, it would also of been difficult to compete. Today, if Britain had ended up the victor in the Cold War, most of the American foriegn policies we whine about today would still be practiced.

Or you'd be content and realise that life is very good under our empire.

Not likely, we exploited the countrys we controled pretty harshly, more likely we would send larger armies over there to "keep the peace" and it would end up in much the same situation India is in.
Alternately it could leve us at war with france seing as they were the ones that supported the americans during the whole thing (see; statue of liberty, origins of)

Or you'd be content and realise that life is very good under our empire.

Things were so good under your empire that it doesn't exist anymore, right?

If Britain had beaten the French - Colonial alliance in the Americas a more powerful alliance would have been formed in Europe that would have lead to an invasion. Typical European politics, when one nation becomes too powerful the others gang up and bring it down.

I'm perfectly content with the current order of things, the British Empire, should it have survived and the US not gained independence, would have collapsed eventually, even without the American Revolution. World history would be drastically different, of course. But like a previous user mentioned, in the 20th century, if the British were still the dominant country on the planet, I think the Axis would have had a pretty good shot at winning the War. The Japanese would have a field day in the Pacific due to the fact that the Americans could have reached the Pacific a hell of a lot faster than the British could, the Italians would still be eating sand in Africa while the British fought in Europe because the heart of the empire is 100x more important than any colony.

Then again, Canada and Australia would still be independent so...I dunno, maybe the US would still exist, only our head of state currently would be Her Excellency Queen Elizabeth II, and not GWB. And Congress would be Parliament, and the Supreme Court wouldn't even exist (hooray)

This is similiar to the EASTERN FRONT. I don't know if Germany will launch an invasion somewhere though. I doubt it.

As for assassination, probably with Nathan Bedford III and Clarence Potter being the perpetrators of said assassination.

Mayyybe, but I still think there will be some June-6th related event. I mean, remember, didn't the Japanese attack Wake Island on December 7th? Anyway, it's gonna be pretty crazy, are they actually gonna have to fight for the entire Confederate States? That'd be insane.

If Britain had beaten the French - Colonial alliance in the Americas a more powerful alliance would have been formed in Europe that would have lead to an invasion. Typical European politics, when one nation becomes too powerful the others gang up and bring it down.

Yea that is why France, Spain, and Holland all declared war on Britain and why the other nations of Europe formed what was called the "armed neutrality" against them and isolated Great Britain.

See what happens when you piss people off?

Mayyybe, but I still think there will be some June-6th related event. I mean, remember, didn't the Japanese attack Wake Island on December 7th? Anyway, it's gonna be pretty crazy, are they actually gonna have to fight for the entire Confederate States? That'd be insane.

We did that in the real Civil War. We nearly went state by state to end the war. Charleston S.C. was almost completely destroyed if I remember right.

Yea that is why France, Spain, and Holland all declared war on Britain and why the other nations of Europe formed what was called the "armed neutrality" against them and isolated Great Britain.

See what happens when you piss people off?
Exactly

Or you'd be content and realise that life is very good under our empire.
Like India? Or Ireland?

Leaving the British Empire's history of incremental failure aside, the fact is the Americans would be highly unlikely to get all content and settle down under the wise tutelage of you British-types, because a significant number of the British settlers of the eastern seaboard of North America were dissidents and radicals who either left or were forced out of Britian for religious/political reasons and who already thought that you Brits could do nothing right anyway. There were at least 5 different major and broad areas of complaint -- economy, religion, military, politics, even real estate development, etc -- that contributed to different groups joining the movement for independence, which kind of hints that any time the British government did anything that brought itself to the attention of its North American colonists, it pissed at least some of them off enough to fight about it.

Add to that the fact that a significant portion of the inhabitants of the North American colonies were not British at all but were citizens of places including The Netherlands, Germany, France and Spain -- all competitors and some, at various times, active enemies of Britain -- and the eventual contentment theory starts to look a little weak.

Bottom line: We got our independence. We spread across the continent. We built unheard of wealth and power. We dominated the world. And we're still not happy. Americans bicker and snipe at each other and the whole world continuously over every little detail of every little thing. The people who settled here were like that even when they were in Britain, and we're still like that today. What makes you think you could change it?

Is anyone here familiar with the story "The Ransom of Red Chief"? It's about the son of a rich family who gets kidnapped. But the kid turns out to be such a vicious pain in the ass that his family refuse to pay the ransom, and the kidnappers end up paying the parents to take him back. :D

"British empire's history of incremental failure".
Not necessarily disagreeing, just please explain. Especially w.r.t. the size it reached, and the fact that most of this size made the empire more, not less powerful.

Also, India was far too vast to rule properly; Partition and transfer of power was rushed; but the reasons for India being a multi-party democracy and a booming economic power, owe no small amount to the days of the Raj. Swings and roundabouts.

Ireland, meanwhile, was the most messy, failure ridden area of British/English foreign policy ever. As far as I know, the last policy we had that was working before we handed Eire to the Irish was abandoned in the 1540's.

Wait... how would the Napoleonic Empire come about if King Louis XVI wasn't bankrupt from supporting the American Revolution, though? Maybe you covered that, but I'm afraid that I don't recall properly. And, given what I know about how well things (don't) go for nations run by tyrants after the tyrant is dead, I'm not entirely certain that a Napoleonic Empire would still be standing.

I did say back in the beginning if the French Revolution and Napoleon's rise to power did still happen.

There may well still have been a revolt, only even bloodier. And as for your second point,

First, is it possible that if it hadn't been for being exiled, Napoleon wouldn't have died as early as he did?

And second, although it would probably start breaking down, it wouldn't immeadietly disappear, and considering the Russian tactics in the war against Napoleon, (I.E. burn the fields and run) I'm sure they took some time to put themselves back together.

Awesome essentially. *hums Rule Brittania*:)

Awesome essentially. *hums Rule Brittania*:)

Do you even know your own history?

Do you even know your own history?

Good lord yes, empire could have been excellent, as it is, it was done badly.

Victory in the War of Independence for the British would have had a huge impact on history, but exactly what this was would probably have depended primarily on the length of the War, and secondly how substantially the French involved themselves.

At the far British side of the scale the War is won quickly and decisively for whatever reasons (it doesnt really matter too much as long as it meant the British Empire wasn't overly drained resource wise), and the French remained passive or gave only partial aid. In this case the British and French empires would likely have continued to grow, but with the British remaining very powerful, the technological advancements of the late 19th century may still have happened (they were a result of environmental factors as much as anything), but now under British control. Given that the Empire was intact (more or less) by the outbreak of WWI it seems unreasonable that a bigger Empire including the US would have broken up. However, the Empire may have been big enough at that point to avoid being drawn into WWI or at least be able to maintain its policy of isolation while France and Germany battle it out. In this situation we are left with a situation where Europe has probably been conquered by expansionist Prussia (not saying the French are bad fighters simply that the WWI was an allied victory if Britain and America had remained neutral France may well have lost), the Empire still controlled the US, India, Australia, probably North Africa, while the French Empire went into decline and collapse.

At the other extreme a long costly war could have seriously exhausted the British Empire and if this opportunity was exploited by France, Britain may well have been overrun (the French had an army in Calais already to prevent further committment to the US, if this committement was taken anyway, Britain would have been left under-defended). In this case, the Empire would have shattered with the loss of centralised control, and the French empire likely expanded to take over much of what was once Imperial Britain. In this case it seems unlikely attacking france would have been an option for an expansionist Prussia (Germany) which would have been forced to look east for territorial acquistions.

After WWI its really impossible to predict, the Empires were seriously weakned by the conflict, something which may not have been as noticeable in either of these two cases, and the mid 20th century Europe was shaped by the Nazis and Hitler's Germany, while the post war period was dictated by WW2 ideas. Since its debatable whether WW1 would have happened, post WW1 becomes pure fantasy.

Personally, I would have liked to see a unified British Empire acting as a global progressive force, however, I don't think that would have happened given the people at the time, and the mentalities of the states. Britain was doomed as an Imperial power with the loss of the US, because it showed major provinces could split, and also meant the technological improvements of the US werent filling British coffers. Finally, it meant that a third player had entered the superpowers, whereas before France and Britain had been the only ones.

We did that in the real Civil War. We nearly went state by state to end the war. Charleston S.C. was almost completely destroyed if I remember right.

but we didn't attack florida, now did we? i want this book to end in the florida keys with featherstons final stronghold. or cuba, that would make sense too, but florida seems crazier

but we didn't attack florida, now did we? i want this book to end in the florida keys with featherstons final stronghold. or cuba, that would make sense too, but florida seems crazier

I believe Corneliu said that we nearly went state to state.

As to the series of books, shouldn't we really get back on topic?

History would be extremely different, that's for sure. Who knows what history would be like.