NationStates Jolt Archive

The amount of illegal immigrants in the United States of America is and has been rising for a while now. The definition of "Illegal Immigrants" in this forum will be:
Those who have taken up residence in the United States of America without proper citizenship or Green Card.

The question is:
If an Illegal Immigrant takes up residence without proper citizenship in the United States, should the United States be obligated to provide protection under its laws to these Immigrants? For example, if an immigrant were to move to the United States in their 20's and in their 60's or 70's apply for medicare without ever having paid taxes or becoming a citizen, should the government grant them medicare?

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My own opinion is that if the government comes across a situation similar to this, they reap the unpayed taxes over the course of the 40 years, and make the immigrant wait the designated amount of time to become a citizen in which case they may leave due to the fact they never payed the taxes to support the country and therefore their recieving medicare would be unfair to those who did pay taxes during that period of time. In which case, their application for medicare would be rejected.

What are your views?

I guess this really matters to no one then, eh?

My own opinion is that if the government comes across a situation similar to this, they reap the unpayed taxes over the course of the 40 years, and make the immigrant wait the designated amount of time to become a citizen in which case they may leave due to the fact they never payed the taxes to support the country and therefore their recieving medicare would be unfair to those who did pay taxes during that period of time. In which case, their application for medicare would be rejected.

What are your views?

Actually i have to say you have pleasantly surprised me and come up with a real solution to this problem.. and i only wish you could submit this to the senate commity discussing this right now.. i think making people pay back taxes and wait until they have done so to become citizens is an absolutely brilliant idea and would benefit the country too.

Well done!

You have to be registered with the SSA to be eligible for Medicare.

Because of the amount of unnecessary shit the government puts immigrants through, I would not particularly mind an illegal immigrant getting medicare benefits.

You have to be registered with the SSA to be eligible for Medicare.
Very true in that point, but in my most beloved and very corrupt state of New Jersey, illegal immigrants have been getting workman's comp., welfare and medicare. Of course, if you're also burried in Jersey City you can vote for as long as your body rests in that city.

Because of the amount of unnecessary shit the government puts immigrants through, I would not particularly mind an illegal immigrant getting medicare benefits.

That's the reason I decided to put it up there. I can't blame them for coming this country for equality and other reasons, but that's why, if you actually participate in Nationstates.net once i get my 2 endorsements I have planned to submit possible legislation to the UN with exactly that in mind. For all countries to lessen their amount of time and paper work to a consensus-agreed amount that is to be later decided upon.

Well, firstly they should have every right accorded to them under human rights conventions.
Above that, it really depends. It's not like they don't contribute to a country at all, they're cheap exploitable labour.

Many of them provide honest work that most "white folk" (myself included) wouldn't dare settle on doing. And it's not quite as simple as walking across the border as many people assume. Hundreds of mexicans die every year in southern Arizona alone, so if they made it, they have a job and want to pull themselves up, then I'm all for giving them citizenship or at least treating them with rights as a citizen. As long as they pay their taxes, which then they'd need to become citizens.

Many of them provide honest work that most "white folk" (myself included) wouldn't dare settle on doing. And it's not quite as simple as walking across the border as many people assume. Hundreds of mexicans die every year in southern Arizona alone, so if they made it, they have a job and want to pull themselves up, then I'm all for giving them citizenship or at least treating them with rights as a citizen. As long as they pay their taxes, which then they'd need to become citizens.
Agreed that most of the "white folk"/"gringos"/"nordics" are very "prim & proper" about landscaping and brick laying etc. but many "gringos" have never had trouble using the prostitution offered by the female illegal immigrants, and if it isn't agreed that there aren't plenty of prostitutes in this country than you (not you Achtung 45) must be living under a rock. I myself, like working with the ground and such, possibly because of how I was raised.

Yes it is true that hundreds of mexicans die each year. But I wasn't trying to single them out or any other race, I was talking about illegal immigrants in general. The fact is though, that more than five times of those hundreds make it over.

And I wouldn't have a problem if they just did what you suggested, only problem with that is it takes 4 years for a person to become a citizen. By that time who knows how much we would lose in taxes?

Because of the amount of unnecessary shit the government puts immigrants through, I would not particularly mind an illegal immigrant getting medicare benefits.

really....
ok,then let me come to your town/country/state and bleed you dry on medical/welfare...without contributing 1 cent to the bill.

i have a 3 thousand dollar bill i got from breaking my foot,and i pay taxes....yet my tax dollars go to paying for some kid with a sneeze that is not payed back...ever.(illegal kid)


i do not want some kid to suffer...but i have kids of my own,that i pay for when they are sick,no insurance,but i was in a hospital and the receptionist told me i should give them a fake mexican name and ss# and just skate...b.s. if you ask me,i dont lie and i pay for my bills....

but my bill is double cause of illegals getting care and not paying!

i'll pay,but it is also pissing me off,but i guees it is nice to have daddies coverage and not pay bills.

i live in the real world,and i pay taxes,and i am sick of paying for people that are here illegally,dont pay taxes,yet i get abill,that is double..so they can treat illegal people.
i do not like to see children suffer,,,but everyone hates the u.s,.and i am sick of being taxed to care for others when i cant get care.

i say..come here legal,contribute...then we are on the same page..other then that...go the fuck home,fix your country.

And I wouldn't have a problem if they just did what you suggested, only problem with that is it takes 4 years for a person to become a citizen. By that time who knows how much we would lose in taxes?
Yeah, but if they're getting minimum wage jobs (for the most part) we wouldn't be losing that much in taxes campared to the corporation that has their main offices on some island outside the U.S. so they don't have to pay the majority of taxes; or the billionaire who can hire people to find loopholes in his taxes. I think we should crack down on the people who can pay taxes before those that can't.

really....
ok,then let me come to your town/country/state and bleed you dry on medical/welfare...without contributing 1 cent to the bill.

i have a 3 thousand dollar bill i got from breaking my foot,and i pay taxes....yet my tax dollars go to paying for some kid with a sneeze that is not payed back...ever.(illegal kid)


i do not want some kid to suffer...but i have kids of my own,that i pay for when they are sick,no insurance,but i was in a hospital and the receptionist told me i should give them a fake mexican name and ss# and just skate...b.s. if you ask me,i dont lie and i pay for my bills....

but my bill is double cause of illegals getting care and not paying!

i'll pay,but it is also pissing me off,but i guees it is nice to have daddies coverage and not pay bills.

i live in the real world,and i pay taxes,and i am sick of paying for people that are here illegally,dont pay taxes,yet i get abill,that is double..so they can treat illegal people.
i do not like to see children suffer,,,but everyone hates the u.s,.and i am sick of being taxed to care for others when i cant get care.

i say..come here legal,contribute...then we are on the same page..other then that...go the fuck home,fix your country.

How do your tax dollars go towards medical treatment for illegal aliens?

You can't start taxing illegal immigrants unless they have a work visa (and negates their being illegal) or they have citizenship. If I were the government I'd extend them the offer to become full-fledged citizens, and if they accept they get the medicare

Rights of illegal immigrants: none.

Meaning that street vendors have the right to roast their bodies in oil and sell them as "the other not-so-white meat".

Not that I would buy one. Yuck.

/racist cynicism

How do your tax dollars go towards medical treatment for illegal aliens?

Because all they have to do is go into any hospital, get treated and the hospital submits the billion for collection to the federal government's billion dollar program to cover the cost. Those were not state taxes they committed they were federal taxes dollars designated to refund the cost to the hospitals. Of course unless you live in one of the border states, New York or Florida the hospitals are stuck for the bill unless your state also picks your pocket for thier own little program.

No one is illegal. Give them full rights and full citizenship.

"Illegal" immigrants do actually pay taxes - Social Security taxes (of which they receive nothing) and sales taxes.

Number 2.

I don't think I could stomach mexican on a stick..the thought is vile.

Depends where you think their rights (And responsibilities) come from.

Do they have inherent rights as human beings or do they need citizenship to qualify for protection under the law?

I would say it is probably a combination thereof. They may not be entitled to all of the benefits of citizenship, but they are entitled to some form of protection under the laws of the US.

I think the solution proposed is a good one, but fails to deal with what rights illegal immigrants would be accorded before they become citizens.

Yeah, but if they're getting minimum wage jobs (for the most part) we wouldn't be losing that much in taxes campared to the corporation that has their main offices on some island outside the U.S. so they don't have to pay the majority of taxes; or the billionaire who can hire people to find loopholes in his taxes. I think we should crack down on the people who can pay taxes before those that can't.

Exactly why I disagree with Bush. Bush is taxing the Blue and Red Collar Citizens of this country more than he taxes teh White Collars! It's a load! Bush's favorite Multi-Million and Multi-Billionaires should be paying more since they MAKE MORE!

Depends where you think their rights (And responsibilities) come from.

Do they have inherent rights as human beings or do they need citizenship to qualify for protection under the law?

I would say it is probably a combination thereof. They may not be entitled to all of the benefits of citizenship, but they are entitled to some form of protection under the laws of the US.

I think the solution proposed is a good one, but fails to deal with what rights illegal immigrants would be accorded before they become citizens.

This is exactly why I posted this, I knew I wasn't right and that there were points I had to shore up. You are exactly right, all illegal immigrants deserve the rights that morality designates. No one should take advantage of them (despite what is already happening) and should treat them like normal people instead of the dirt of the Earth. Even moreso, if they feel they aren't receiving the respect they deserve, they should form some sort of nonviolent union or group, not gangs or start sub groups of gangs such as the Bloods and Cryps that are so very popular among our immigrant population in New Jersey.

deport them.

deport them.
Hence, the right to deportation :) Agreed.

Something to consider.

It's fine and dandy to block them from medicine etc. But I can tell you this will not keep them from comming.

We had a family of illegals up the street. The parents were questionable but their kids were really good with my daughter.

One night they had a medical emergency and came running to my house. Turns out they had 3 cases of spinal menengitas(sp?).

We had to monitor our girl for a few days to see if she showed signs of having it.

So the fact they don't have access to "legal" medicine could come back and bite you on the ass.

That's all I have to say.....

Your wording for who and what is in illegal leaves something to be desired. There are legal immigrants who reside in the US without either a green card or having obtained citizenship.

Hence, the right to deportation :) Agreed.

I agree the right to deportation should be reserved but it's not as easy as it sounds. The nation has to find them first.

I agree the right to deportation should be reserved but it's not as easy as it sounds. The nation has to find them first.
Well if it were easy, where would the fun in it be? :)

Your wording for who and what is in illegal leaves something to be desired. There are legal immigrants who reside in the US without either a green card or having obtained citizenship.

I agree with the first part, but I'm a novice in wording what I'd really like to say, I tend to lose the words I'd like to use. I know that there are those who have visas, but my main point was to say those who have come to the US and reside in it by completely illegal practices

Something to consider.

It's fine and dandy to block them from medicine etc. But I can tell you this will not keep them from comming.

We had a family of illegals up the street. The parents were questionable but their kids were really good with my daughter.

One night they had a medical emergency and came running to my house. Turns out they had 3 cases of spinal menengitas(sp?).

We had to monitor our girl for a few days to see if she showed signs of having it.

So the fact they don't have access to "legal" medicine could come back and bite you on the ass.

That's all I have to say.....

Another perfectly valid point. Any other opinions/experiences on such related things?

No one is illegal. Give them full rights and full citizenship.

"Illegal" immigrants do actually pay taxes - Social Security taxes (of which they receive nothing) and sales taxes.
Seconded right here.

If you made all immigration legal, ie you simply open your borders, you'd solve all the problems you might have now in no time.

Rights: None
Citizenship: U gotta be kidding me
Protection Under Law: HELLLL NOOO!

Basically,....send them back to El Mexico!

Seconded right here.

If you made all immigration legal, ie you simply open your borders, you'd solve all the problems you might have now in no time.
And when the world is ready for this, so be it.

Basically,....send them back to El Mexico!
So.......by what virtue are you any better than him?
Knowing that he's probably been working harder all these years than you.

If you made all immigration legal, ie you simply open your borders, you'd solve all the problems you might have now in no time.

Once we eradicate religion and have a world government I would agree with you. Until then, I find this idea dangerously naive.

Rights: None
Citizenship: U gotta be kidding me
Protection Under Law: HELLLL NOOO!

Basically,....send them back to El Mexico!

Thank you for your thoughtful and enlightened contribution to this discussion. Any ideas to back any of that up?

Once we eradicate religion and have a world government I would agree with you. Until then, I find this idea dangerously naive.
Once we more or less equalise regional wealth, yes and establish rules for fair trade. I don't see a world government happening.

And I wouldn't have a problem if they just did what you suggested, only problem with that is it takes 4 years for a person to become a citizen. By that time who knows how much we would lose in taxes?

So make them pay taxes while they waited.. i'm sure they wouldn't mind.

On another topic how does an undocumented person get medicare and SSI to bleach off it anyway? I've never understood this part of the arguement as part of the immigration debate.

Once we eradicate religion and have a world government I would agree with you. Until then, I find this idea dangerously naive.
What does religion have to do with any of this?

Fact is that if you are committed to Capitalism, you would believe in the power of the free travel of persons, goods and services to not only eliminate poverty, but also that it would not pose a problem to any of the receiving countries. Things would level off pretty quickly.

What does religion have to do with any of this?

Fact is that if you are committed to Capitalism, you would believe in the power of the free travel of persons, goods and services to not only eliminate poverty, but also that it would not pose a problem to any of the receiving countries. Things would level off pretty quickly.

Too bad that is a completely idealistic view, and in reality all those people would end up contributing to unemployment and then crime as they need some way to feed themselves and thier families. I dont think everyone who lives with a higher standard of living would like to be leveled off with the rest of the world.

Too bad that is a completely idealistic view, and in reality all those people would end up contributing to unemployment and then crime as they need some way to feed themselves and thier families. I dont think everyone who lives with a higher standard of living would like to be leveled off with the rest of the world.
Precisely. If anything, trade should be open and free. This notion of a world government is what should be scrapped entirely. It is not necessary for trade. Instead, mutual agreements could be reached by a more efficient version of the WTO.

Too bad that is a completely idealistic view, and in reality all those people would end up contributing to unemployment and then crime as they need some way to feed themselves and thier families. I dont think everyone who lives with a higher standard of living would like to be leveled off with the rest of the world.

If there are no job opportunities, they won't come. Immigration typically occurs where growth rates are highest.

Precisely. If anything, trade should be open and free. This notion of a world government is what should be scrapped entirely. It is not necessary for trade. Instead, mutual agreements could be reached by a more efficient version of the WTO.

So you're in favor of allowing corporations to sell commodities wherever they want, but against allowing workers to sell their labor-power wherever they want?

Why?

So you're in favor of allowing corporations to sell commodities wherever they want, but against allowing workers to sell their labor-power wherever they want?

Why?
When did I say that? All I said is that I am firmly against a world government.

...in reality all those people would end up contributing to unemployment and then crime as they need some way to feed themselves and thier families...
They don't now, do they. Most first generation immigrants find low-paid labour, the sort of jobs that established citizens don't want.

I have found that immigrants are usually the hardest-working people around, because they value things. And they know what it cost them, and they have to start from scratch.

Whatever issues there may be with subsequent generations of immigrants are not caused by immigration but by economic issues that in the US also affect black and latino kids whose families have been in the country for decades or much longer.

When did I say that? All I said is that I am firmly against a world government.

You replied "precisely" to a post criticizing illegal immigration. If I misinterpreted you, what was your intended meaning?

You replied "precisely" to a post criticizing illegal immigration. If I misinterpreted you, what was your intended meaning?
My intended meaning was that free trade is not synonymous with world government.

My intended meaning was that free trade is not synonymous with world government.
Although it would undoubtedly lead to such, considering that in a truly global economy, no single government would any longer hold any power.

Although it would undoubtedly lead to such, considering that in a truly global economy, no single government would any longer hold any power.
Let things come in their natural order...first various regions should enrich themselves through free trade, then perhaps such a government will follow.

My intended meaning was that free trade is not synonymous with world government.

Not with an official world government, no. I don't know what you mean by "free trade," but if current trends hold we will end up with an unofficial world government - the unregulated and unrestrained dictatorship of capital, free to pillage and exploit as it sees fit.

One way to prevent such a result is to free the movement of labor with the movement of capital, and open borders.

If there are no job opportunities, they won't come. Immigration typically occurs where growth rates are highest.
Aha. So thats why they constantly try to come to France or Germany. Because of the huge growth rates in jobs.

Not with an official world government, no. I don't know what you mean by "free trade," but if current trends hold we will end up with an unofficial world government - the unregulated and unrestrained dictatorship of capital, free to pillage and exploit as it sees fit.

One way to prevent such a result is to free the movement of labor with the movement of capital, and open borders.
I would agree. As long as doing so has no burden on welfare systems, and actually helps wealth circulate rather than resulting to falling wealth levels globally.

What does religion have to do with any of this?

Where the hell have you been for the last five years? Ever hear of September 11th, 2001?

The fact is that unless religion is abolished there will always be severe security risks with allowing the free crossing of borders. That is why even libertarians agree that it must be restricted to "peaceful people". And by my definition religious people are not necessarily peaceful. In fact, most of them are downright warlike. I would have just said "until Islam is eradicated", but historically speaking Christianity is no better.

Until humanity evolves to the point where it no longer relys on the crutch that is religion, there will always be a segment of those religions that believes it is right and all others are wrong and is intolerant of others.


The preceeding post has been a broad generalization used to illustrate the dangers of free crossing of borders. It is in no way intended to start a flame war or to advocate exterminating anyone. In other words, I don't hate religious people, just religion.

Aha. So thats why they constantly try to come to France or Germany. Because of the huge growth rates in jobs.

Most of the immigration to France, at least, occurred when growth rates were indeed high, back in the 1950s and 1960s. Immigration rates have decreased since then. I don't know the statistics for Germany.

Where the hell have you been for the last five years? Ever hear of September 11th, 2001?
This is what it always comes back to, hey. 3000 random people died, when at the same time thousands and thousands more die in car accidents, or from injuries sustained because of unsafe working practices and so on and so forth.

This is what it always comes back to, hey. 3000 random people died, when at the same time thousands and thousands more die in car accidents, or from injuries sustained because of unsafe working practices and so on and so forth.

Why do you hate America?

When someone asks if you remember 9/11/01, you are supposed to kneel subserviently to the Imperial Caesar, kiss his feet, and bless his great country and all its policies without question.

"Thought" has nothing to do with it.

No one is illegal. Give them full rights and full citizenship.

"Illegal" immigrants do actually pay taxes - Social Security taxes (of which they receive nothing) and sales taxes.
I would argue the only taxes that they really pay would be the sales taxes. They don't really pay the Social Security taxes because being Illegal workers, their employers don't go through the process of getting their salary into Social Security.

Exactly why I disagree with Bush. Bush is taxing the Blue and Red Collar Citizens of this country more than he taxes teh White Collars! It's a load! Bush's favorite Multi-Million and Multi-Billionaires should be paying more since they MAKE MORE!
I just wanted to mention that the multi-million and multi-billionaires already do pay more, and a higher percentage then us non-multi-millionaires.

I would argue the only taxes that they really pay would be the sales taxes. They don't really pay the Social Security taxes because being Illegal workers, their employers don't go through the process of getting their salary into Social Security.

They have fake Social Security numbers, so their money does go into the fund, but unconnected to them.

I just wanted to mention that the multi-million and multi-billionaires already do pay more, and a higher percentage then us non-multi-millionaires.
Yeah, but what percentage of multi-millionaires actually pay all their taxes? A lot lower than you might think. Besides, in Bush's proposed budget, corporations will pay $260 billion in taxes, whereas us normal taxpayers will pay over a trillion.

Yeah, but what percentage of multi-millionaires actually pay all their taxes? A lot lower than you might think. Besides, in Bush's proposed budget, corporations will pay $260 billion in taxes, whereas us normal taxpayers will pay over a trillion.
Included in the normal taxpayers that pay over a trillion would be the millionaires. Off topic: The progressive tax just bothers me a little bit. My dad helps a lot of people at his office with their taxes. Some of the upper-end people lose between 30% and 40% of their income to taxes. While some of the lower-paid people ended up coming out of the tax system with a profit. They got more on their tax return than they paid to start with. While I would rather we use a even tax system, a progressive tax with less variance would still be better. Anyway, it would be hard to gauge how many millionaires avoid paying their full taxes, because the avoiding has to be done without the government knowing.

Included in the normal taxpayers that pay over a trillion would be the millionaires. Off topic: The progressive tax just bothers me a little bit. My dad helps a lot of people at his office with their taxes. Some of the upper-end people lose between 30% and 40% of their income to taxes. While some of the lower-paid people ended up coming out of the tax system with a profit. They got more on their tax return than they paid to start with. While I would rather we use a even tax system, a progressive tax with less variance would still be better. Anyway, it would be hard to gauge how many millionaires avoid paying their full taxes, because the avoiding has to be done without the government knowing.
So you have a problem with a multi-millionaire making a $1 million in a year ultimately making $700,000, while someone else makes $30,000 per year and hardly pays any in taxes? That's still a gap of $670,000. It's just as rediculous as the baseball players who bitch about how $7 million isn't enough.

So you have a problem with a multi-millionaire making a $1 million in a year ultimately making $700,000, while someone else makes $30,000 per year and hardly pays any in taxes? That's still a gap of $670,000. It's just as rediculous as the baseball players who bitch about how $7 million isn't enough.
I do agree that those baseball/football/basketball players that make millions of dollars every year shouldn't be complaining for higher pay. Back to taxing though. While I did say I think an even tax would be preferable, I would still support making our progressive tax a little more even. I just don't see where the government takes the right to tax one man 30% of his money and another man pretty much nothing because the guy who makes more....makes more. I will go into the social security aspect of it now though. The man making $1 million pays lets say $300,000 in taxes each year. While I think it is safe to assume I am underestimating this a lot, I would bet at least $50,000 of those taxes are going into Social Security. At the same time the man making $30,000 is pretty much putting nothing into Social Security. Now let's pretend the each work for 40 years. The man who made more contributes about $2 million during his working life, and the other man contributes none. Now when retirement comes around, the man who used to make a lot will be getting back a tiny fraction of what he put in, and the man who put in relatively nothing will be getting money he never put in. That is where my problem with this issue arises. And now that I have thought about it more, I would really support the "fair tax." One flat rate as a sales tax, but maybe it wouldn't tax food as much. That way the people who spend oodles on mansions have to pay a lot more taxes, but the people who make less can be spending money on just the essentials, and not be paying as high of a percent of taxes.

I do agree that those baseball/football/basketball players that make millions of dollars every year shouldn't be complaining for higher pay. Back to taxing though. While I did say I think an even tax would be preferable, I would still support making our progressive tax a little more even. I just don't see where the government takes the right to tax one man 30% of his money and another man pretty much nothing because the guy who makes more....makes more. I will go into the social security aspect of it now though. The man making $1 million pays lets say $300,000 in taxes each year. While I think it is safe to assume I am underestimating this a lot, I would bet at least $50,000 of those taxes are going into Social Security. At the same time the man making $30,000 is pretty much putting nothing into Social Security. Now let's pretend the each work for 40 years. The man who made more contributes about $2 million during his working life, and the other man contributes none. Now when retirement comes around, the man who used to make a lot will be getting back a tiny fraction of what he put in, and the man who put in relatively nothing will be getting money he never put in. That is where my problem with this issue arises. And now that I have thought about it more, I would really support the "fair tax." One flat rate as a sales tax, but maybe it wouldn't tax food as much. That way the people who spend oodles on mansions have to pay a lot more taxes, but the people who make less can be spending money on just the essentials, and not be paying as high of a percent of taxes.
I do see the problem there, and it is a good argument, but then one must look at the moral issue that raises. Let's say at retirement everyone gets out some fraction of what they put in so it's all even. In that respect, you're not giving people equal rights, so the person that worked equally as hard (if not more) than the multi-millionaire would be SOL and the multi-millionaire (who could've just inherited his father's corporation) retires with plenty of benefits.

I couldn't find "Round them up, deport them, and protect our borders" as one of the choices. And Bush's plan is amnesty even though he says it isn't.

I do see the problem there, and it is a good argument, but then one must look at the moral issue that raises. Let's say at retirement everyone gets out some fraction of what they put in so it's all even. In that respect, you're not giving people equal rights, so the person that worked equally as hard (if not more) than the multi-millionaire would be SOL and the multi-millionaire (who could've just inherited his father's corporation) retires with plenty of benefits.
I see this as a place where we just need more of a balance. There is no magic formula to see how much someone worked in their life. So we need to base it off of how much money they made, and then even it out a little bit to help work out some discrepancies. Now, an attempt to make a forumla

Social Security funds to be given = constant k * ((average caloric energy spent in job per day + average number of analytical thoughts made per day in relation to a job) * money earned from which taxes are paid into social security)

I couldn't find "Round them up, deport them, and protect our borders" as one of the choices. And Bush's plan is amnesty even though he says it isn't.
So why don't you secede from the Union, build a bunch of nukes and get a giant army and then go invade Mexico. Nothing's stopping you.

This is what it always comes back to, hey. 3000 random people died, when at the same time thousands and thousands more die in car accidents, or from injuries sustained because of unsafe working practices and so on and so forth.

Those car accidents are due to drunk driving or cell phone use.

I just wanted to mention that the multi-million and multi-billionaires already do pay more, and a higher percentage then us non-multi-millionaires.

Where have you been these past 5 years?! Tax cuts for the RICH, and tax increases for the POOR... that's all Bush is about!

Where have you been these past 5 years?! Tax cuts for the poor, and tax increases for the rich... that's all Bush is about!
Yeah, but still the percentage is higher. Whoa, "Taxman" by SRV just started playing. Weird. Anyways, I think this (http://readythinkvote.com/vote_taxcut.html) is pretty interesting.

Yeah, but still the percentage is higher. Whoa, "Taxman" by SRV just started playing. Weird. Anyways, I think this (http://readythinkvote.com/vote_taxcut.html) is pretty interesting.

First off (completely off topic) did Stevie cover the Beatles song "Taxman" or is it original? Just wondering if you knew.
Second off, that is a pretty freaking amazing chart. I think all the people who disbelieved those of us who said similar things were just :sniper: ed

How do your tax dollars go towards medical treatment for illegal aliens?
some one has to pay...either thru inflated bills for the consumer..or the government subsidising the institution so the community still has a hospital.
i pay a bill...hit once and an inflated bill...then i get taxed that in part goes to subsidise the hospital...so now i am paying twice....fuckin pisses me off..sorry but it really bothers me as a single dad of 2 kids..with no insurance.

and as i said..i have been to the er and it is swamped with illegals who no speaky english...and also wont be paying their bill..so bill bill doubles to cover their ass,and my taxes go up to keep the hospital open...there is no argument on that.

Where have you been these past 5 years?! Tax cuts for the poor, and tax increases for the rich... that's all Bush is about!

1) Are you living in a parallel universe
2) just buying the Republican Propaganda
3) .. or are you really Karl Rove??

Please select A, B or C and I have my bullet proof vest on in case it's C and you send Chaney out to take care of me. :p

Whatever issues there may be with subsequent generations of immigrants are not caused by immigration but by economic issues that in the US also affect black and latino kids whose families have been in the country for decades or much longer.

Yes and some of them even get to grow up to be attorney general. i hate Bush with a passion but I still have to admire him for not being a racist or anti minorities (as long as you're not gay - unless you're Dick's daughter).;)

OMG Did I just say something positive and unsolicited about da Prez?? *FAINTS*:eek:

some one has to pay...either thru inflated bills for the consumer..or the government subsidising the institution so the community still has a hospital.
i pay a bill...hit once and an inflated bill...then i get taxed that in part goes to subsidise the hospital...so now i am paying twice....fuckin pisses me off..sorry but it really bothers me as a single dad of 2 kids..with no insurance.

and as i said..i have been to the er and it is swamped with illegals who no speaky english...and also wont be paying their bill..so bill bill doubles to cover their ass,and my taxes go up to keep the hospital open...there is no argument on that.

OH so now illegal Immigrants are the cause of the ever increasing cost of the medical industry too. WOW thanks for educating me.. I always thought it was because of the lack of a decent health care system for all americans and the greed of the corporations who run the hospitals and the drug companys.

First off (completely off topic) did Stevie cover the Beatles song "Taxman" or is it original? Just wondering if you knew.
Second off, that is a pretty freaking amazing chart. I think all the people who disbelieved those of us who said similar things were just :sniper: ed
Well seeing as how Stevie wasn't born until after the beatles split (or close enough) and I'm pretty sure the lyrics are one in the same, so yes, it is a cover. And yes, that is a pretty crazy chart. I also like deficit chart, which seems hard to believe because it clearly shows the deficit going up (bigger) under Bush I, down into a surplus under Clinton, and wayyyy up under Bush II, but it is straight off the federal budget. I guess facts are biased against Republicans.

some one has to pay...either thru inflated bills for the consumer..or the government subsidising the institution so the community still has a hospital.
i pay a bill...hit once and an inflated bill...then i get taxed that in part goes to subsidise the hospital...so now i am paying twice....fuckin pisses me off..sorry but it really bothers me as a single dad of 2 kids..with no insurance.

and as i said..i have been to the er and it is swamped with illegals who no speaky english...and also wont be paying their bill..so bill bill doubles to cover their ass,and my taxes go up to keep the hospital open...there is no argument on that.

Also, all those single moms who happen to be illegal immigrants and are getting money from the government with fake SSNs, can you guess who the dads are? ALL OF US TAXPAYERS!

1) Are you living in a parallel universe
2) just buying the Republican Propaganda
3) .. or are you really Karl Rove??

Please select A, B or C and I have my bullet proof vest on in case it's C and you send Chaney out to take care of me. :p

HA! Woops. Blooper there. I meant it the other way around. Geez I'm sorry guys. I meant to say:
"Tax cuts for the rich, and tax increases for the poor" Completely my fault guys. Sorry for the confusion. I'll go back and edit it.

Also, all those single moms who happen to be illegal immigrants and are getting money from the government with fake SSNs, can you guess who the dads are? ALL OF US TAXPAYERS!

I have to agree with our new member here.

I have to agree with our new member here.
Was that intentional, or did you accidentally forget to log out of your puppet nation? :p

So we've gone off on a tangent into a completely seperate topic. Taxes. I agree that they are very pertinent to the topic of Illegal Immigration, however, those of us in this thread (myself included) have been just mainly arguing the taxes and not the whole picture. My example of medicare was just that, an example. I didn't mean that to be the main topic. Nor was I making specific references to Mexicans or any other Hispanics. I was speaking about Illegal Immigrants in general.

Any of you who are of Hispanic background, please excuse any comments you believe to be racist.

Was that intentional, or did you accidentally forget to log out of your puppet nation? :p

Ha! You're funny. Actually that's my twin brother.

Ha! You're funny. Actually that's my twin brother.
ah, sure...

yeah, we did kinda hijack the thread, but meh.

yeah, we did kinda hijack the thread, but meh.

Yeah. I don't really care. I just hate constantly arguing the taxes with everybody. Illegal immigration is such a rare argument that I figured it had to be brought up.

I didn't vote because my answer isn't there:

Offer them no services except emergency medical care after which they are deported back to their country of origin. Arrest or fine or both people who hire them.

I didn't vote because my answer isn't there:

Offer them no services except emergency medical care after which they are deported back to their country of origin. Arrest or fine or both people who hire them.

I had never thought of that. That's a great idea to fine/arrest their employers.

Of course, if you're also burried in Jersey City you can vote for as long as your body rests in that city.
Sorry...maybe someone already caught this but HUH? The dead in Jersey get the vote?

I believe that if someone can take the time to cross the border illegally, they have time to go back to Mexico and try again. I know it is hard to legally become a citizen of the US, but they can join our Military and get citizenship that way. Or they can marry an American and come to the US that way. America has many freedoms, but we are still a struggling country trying to decide whether it is constitutional or not to place the commandments in front of a courthouse.
I mean they want a better life? Then come across legally and get one. If not, they get stuck with the worst jobs and are often paid under Min. Wage. I really don't mind they work they offer, because the do a better job than many other lazy Americans in contruction. I've seen it first hand. It took Mexicans 1.3 days to reroof our house. It took the average white Americans 2+ days sometimes even weeks to do something of less quality. The Mexicans will do anything to be here. If they come across legally, I don't mind them here, but if they do not, they are to be fined.
But the terrorists crossing the Canadian border need to be stopped all together. Terrorists were getting into America through Canada. They were coming from all over the Middle East and such. That is probably how Bin-Ladden's people got into America. It's so terrifying to think that one of America's allies (Canada) is actually hurting us by letting Terrorists go unchecked through their system. Sheesh. You know what I mean?

Many of them provide honest work that most "white folk" (myself included) wouldn't dare settle on doing. And it's not quite as simple as walking across the border as many people assume. Hundreds of mexicans die every year in southern Arizona alone, so if they made it, they have a job and want to pull themselves up, then I'm all for giving them citizenship or at least treating them with rights as a citizen. As long as they pay their taxes, which then they'd need to become citizens.

yep

I think we should give prizes to those who come the furthest. So Guatamalens, Salvadoreans, and Hondurans would get the biggest prizes, since if they actually make it alive, they've certainly earned it. Mexicans from the southern provinces would get better slave-wage jobs than the ones close to the border, and so on.

I believe that if someone can take the time to cross the border illegally, they have time to go back to Mexico and try again. I know it is hard to legally become a citizen of the US, but they can join our Military and get citizenship that way. Or they can marry an American and come to the US that way. America has many freedoms, but we are still a struggling country trying to decide whether it is constitutional or not to place the commandments in front of a courthouse.
I mean they want a better life? Then come across legally and get one. If not, they get stuck with the worst jobs and are often paid under Min. Wage. I really don't mind they work they offer, because the do a better job than many other lazy Americans in contruction. I've seen it first hand. It took Mexicans 1.3 days to reroof our house. It took the average white Americans 2+ days sometimes even weeks to do something of less quality. The Mexicans will do anything to be here. If they come across legally, I don't mind them here, but if they do not, they are to be fined.
But the terrorists crossing the Canadian border need to be stopped all together. Terrorists were getting into America through Canada. They were coming from all over the Middle East and such. That is probably how Bin-Ladden's people got into America. It's so terrifying to think that one of America's allies (Canada) is actually hurting us by letting Terrorists go unchecked through their system. Sheesh. You know what I mean?


Maybe our government should make it a bit easier for them to gain legal citizenship. Have you any idea the hoops they make them jump through and then jump through again after setting it on fire and then another hoop thats about the size of a cheerio? Its unbelievable what they put them through. It shouldnt be like that. They want a better life for their families.....who can blame them?? How about we ship the worthless, unappreciative,racist, biggoted Americans over there and send the Mexicans over here? I'd say we'd be getting an excellent deal.

Maybe our government should make it a bit easier for them to gain legal citizenship. Have you any idea the hoops they make them jump through and then jump through again after setting it on fire and then another hoop thats about the size of a cheerio? Its unbelievable what they put them through. It shouldnt be like that. They want a better life for their families.....who can blame them?? How about we ship the worthless, unappreciative,racist, biggoted Americans over there and send the Mexicans over here? I'd say we'd be getting an excellent deal.It's hard to understand how difficult it is to even get a visa to come visit the US or Canada for the majority of people on this earth. We, as citizens of these nations, are denied nowhere. Most people, being seen as 'possible immigrants' will never be allowed to step foot here legally. Ever.

Sorry...maybe someone already caught this but HUH? The dead in Jersey get the vote?

With in New Jersey, there's a city across the river from NYC called Jersey City. It is possibly THE MOST CORRUPT city in the whole Union. Everyone burried in this city tends to vote. Politicians "buy" the person's vote. They just add their name to all those who voted for them. In fact, Former Gov. Robert Meyner said "When I die, I want to be buried in Jersey City so I can continue in politics."

Here's the link (http://www.ocnjmuseum.org/ochm_06_pages/community_pages/quiz_answers.html) if you'd like to see for yourself

I believe that if someone can take the time to cross the border illegally, they have time to go back to Mexico and try again. I know it is hard to legally become a citizen of the US, but they can join our Military and get citizenship that way. Or they can marry an American and come to the US that way. America has many freedoms, but we are still a struggling country trying to decide whether it is constitutional or not to place the commandments in front of a courthouse.
I mean they want a better life? Then come across legally and get one. If not, they get stuck with the worst jobs and are often paid under Min. Wage. I really don't mind they work they offer, because the do a better job than many other lazy Americans in contruction. I've seen it first hand. It took Mexicans 1.3 days to reroof our house. It took the average white Americans 2+ days sometimes even weeks to do something of less quality. The Mexicans will do anything to be here. If they come across legally, I don't mind them here, but if they do not, they are to be fined.
But the terrorists crossing the Canadian border need to be stopped all together. Terrorists were getting into America through Canada. They were coming from all over the Middle East and such. That is probably how Bin-Ladden's people got into America. It's so terrifying to think that one of America's allies (Canada) is actually hurting us by letting Terrorists go unchecked through their system. Sheesh. You know what I mean?

I say we reach a general consensus that Mexicans, legally here or not, do amazingly good work quickly and get screwed interms of their pay. All in agreement please reply to this with a quote saying "Yes". All in disagreement please replay with "Nay".

That whole business with the Ten Commandments is tricky considering our country was founded by very religious men with the exception of Thomas Jefferson.

Also the terrorists didn't just come from Canada. They also came through the UAE. But Bush "sealed" our borders with Canada one way in case of a draft, so we can't leave. There are certain people in this country (those with families who depend on them) who can't afford to be drafted and if they need to they should be able to emmigrate to Canada.

And yes there are many ways to become a citizen other than the hardest of all. But even marrying an American is tricky. They just want a better life and I can't blame them for that. They're just hurting our country's economy to a certain extent and that pisses me off. I may not like the current administration but I love the country and everything it stand for.

Maybe our government should make it a bit easier for them to gain legal citizenship. Have you any idea the hoops they make them jump through and then jump through again after setting it on fire and then another hoop thats about the size of a cheerio? Its unbelievable what they put them through. It shouldnt be like that. They want a better life for their families.....who can blame them?? How about we ship the worthless, unappreciative,racist, biggoted Americans over there and send the Mexicans over here? I'd say we'd be getting an excellent deal.

Yeah. Especially our biggoted, racist, hypocritical, worthless politicians.

It's hard to understand how difficult it is to even get a visa to come visit the US or Canada for the majority of people on this earth. We, as citizens of these nations, are denied nowhere. Most people, being seen as 'possible immigrants' will never be allowed to step foot here legally. Ever.

That's why the United Nations (legitimate not NS) should impose upon all members a designated time for waiting for citizenship. And delegates from each country should put together the "test" for those applying and have the United Nations check it for fairness.

That's why the United Nations (legitimate not NS) should impose upon all members a designated time for waiting for citizenship. And delegates from each country should put together the "test" for those applying and have the United Nations check it for fairness.
Umm..... the US would not listen to the UN. In fact, we might even give the UN the peace sign as displayed by this smiley right here-->:upyours:

Ok, I don't like using that smiley but it is fitting. The US feels that it has the right to make laws based on the judgement of its own citizens and should not be bound to laws by foreigners. If the UN attempts to pass such a law then we would ignore it and the UN would have no power to enforce their law anyway.

Umm..... the US would not listen to the UN. In fact, we might even give the UN the peace sign as displayed by this smiley right here-->:upyours:

Ok, I don't like using that smiley but it is fitting. The US feels that it has the right to make laws based on the judgement of its own citizens and should not be bound to laws by foreigners. If the UN attempts to pass such a law then we would ignore it and the UN would have no power to enforce their law anyway.

In which case I would start a hearty petition on this and other political forums. As well as in my workplace and have it sent to others to spread across the country. Once it has reached its ends, submit it to the President himself or other means, which would still probably not work well.

They should be deported. There is a legal way to immigrate here. They chose not to use it.

Plus, we have too many people already.

In which case I would start a hearty petition on this and other political forums. As well as in my workplace and have it sent to others to spread across the country. Once it has reached its ends, submit it to the President himself or other means, which would still probably not work well.
Yeah, I don't think the petition idea would work well. Americans in general like their independence and the tendency would probably be towards defiance towards international institutions or withdrawal, we probably wouldn't acquiesce. I don't think that the American people have a duty to follow the dictate of other countries, we should try to maintain good relations but we should never obey their commands.

That's why the United Nations (legitimate not NS) should impose upon all members a designated time for waiting for citizenship. And delegates from each country should put together the "test" for those applying and have the United Nations check it for fairness.
Actually, now that I think about it, the UN would probably never support lax immigration policies anyway because Europe is having problems adjusting to immigrants. Europe and the US have influential voices in that international body.

Actually, now that I think about it, the UN would probably never support lax immigration policies anyway because Europe is having problems adjusting to immigrants. Europe and the US have influential voices in that international body.

Yes, well the US haas influential voices everywhere if you really think about it. For example, Halliburton already has a subcompany branch (based in a foreign country) in Iraq that's mining oil to sell to Halliburton for Halliburton to sell everywhere else! I'd say thats an influential voice in that economy.

Yeah, I don't think the petition idea would work well. Americans in general like their independence and the tendency would probably be towards defiance towards international institutions or withdrawal, we probably wouldn't acquiesce. I don't think that the American people have a duty to follow the dictate of other countries, we should try to maintain good relations but we should never obey their commands.

The petition idea might work. There are just too many idiots out in the US to realize the good it would do. Besides, how about the Geneva Convention? We do listen to that don't we?

There's a command of a group of foreign countries. Besides is the UN really a country?

The petition idea might work. There are just too many idiots out in the US to realize the good it would do. Besides, how about the Geneva Convention? We do listen to that don't we?

There's a command of a group of foreign countries. Besides is the UN really a country?
Well, making immigration easier might very well help the economy by providing labor. Also, we are actually claiming to not break the Geneva Convention by claiming the people we capture are unlawful combatants and not subject to that treaty. If the people we are currently torturing were to be considered combatants under the Geneva Convention then we would be breaking it.

The UN is a body made up of foreign countries. It is not a country in itself but any rules created by the UN are rules created by a foreign body made up of many foreign people. The UN's laws were not created by our legislative branch.

Well, making immigration easier might very well help the economy by providing labor. Also, we are actually claiming to not break the Geneva Convention by claiming the people we capture are unlawful combatants and not subject to that treaty. If the people we are currently torturing were to be considered combatants under the Geneva Convention then we would be breaking it.

The UN is a body made up of foreign countries. It is not a country in itself but any rules created by the UN are rules created by a foreign body made up of many foreign people. The UN's laws were not created by our legislative branch.

AHA! But we as a nation are part of that foreign body. So obviously if it's something the country doesn't want to do then its our delegate's fault or whoever allowed him to make the decision for it.

AHA! But we as a nation are part of that foreign body. So obviously if it's something the country doesn't want to do then its our delegate's fault or whoever allowed him to make the decision for it.
That is sort of true because we do have Veto power. However, still making laws and enforcing them is a job for the government of our nation, we can still defy anything the UN does if we so desire. We would, however, probably veto any idea that is unpopular in our nation.

That is sort of true because we do have Veto power. However, still making laws and enforcing them is a job for the government of our nation, we can still defy anything the UN does if we so desire. We would, however, probably veto any idea that is unpopular in our nation.

One can never be so sure.

One can never be so sure.
What? You think that we would act against our perceived best interests? That is unlikely, the UN is unlikely to make an immigration law and we are unlikely to follow it. We have turned down UN conventions and the like before.

What? You think that we would act against our perceived best interests? That is unlikely, the UN is unlikely to make an immigration law and we are unlikely to follow it. We have turned down UN conventions and the like before.

Anything can happen in this day and age. I'm not one to predict it or argue over it. I'm just saying.

Shall I label this thread closed now?

They are illegal so they have no rights in america and should be deported.

Anything can happen in this day and age. I'm not one to predict it or argue over it. I'm just saying.
Anything can happen but you are right we should not try to predict it or argue over it. It is just I think that it would be easier to get the US to alter its policy on its own without UN involvement.(I am not saying that would be an easy task though)

The amount of illegal immigrants in the United States of America is and has been rising for a while now. The definition of "Illegal Immigrants" in this forum will be:
Those who have taken up residence in the United States of America without proper citizenship or Green Card.

The question is:
If an Illegal Immigrant takes up residence without proper citizenship in the United States, should the United States be obligated to provide protection under its laws to these Immigrants? For example, if an immigrant were to move to the United States in their 20's and in their 60's or 70's apply for medicare without ever having paid taxes or becoming a citizen, should the government grant them medicare?

______________________________________________________________________________________

My own opinion is that if the government comes across a situation similar to this, they reap the unpayed taxes over the course of the 40 years, and make the immigrant wait the designated amount of time to become a citizen in which case they may leave due to the fact they never payed the taxes to support the country and therefore their recieving medicare would be unfair to those who did pay taxes during that period of time. In which case, their application for medicare would be rejected.

What are your views?I picked option 2. I'm not a racist, but illegals come here, steal our jobs, don't pay taxes, and expect that they should be allowed to stay.

They are illegal so they have no rights in america and should be deported.
What do you think we're doing here at the border? The Border Patrol and Minutemen can catch only so many, therefore it's hardly worth it at all. With both forces patrolling the border, Arizona's immigrants are still over 50% illegal. So then we should think of an alternative solution instead of just deporting them. It's not quite that simple. Rep Kolbe (R-AZ) and his congressional posse went to a couple border towns and talked to Mexican officials about the problem. They both agreed that it should be a bilateral effort to curb illegal immigration.

I picked option 2. I'm not a racist, but illegals come here, steal our jobs, don't pay taxes, and expect that they should be allowed to stay.
I believe this will be the third time I've said it. The majority of illegals here take menial work that hardly anyone else is willing to do. I thank them for that. Besides, they risked their lives to be here, the least we can do is show them an ounce of compassion. And before you nail illegals for not paying taxes, you should nail the government for corporate subsidies. The latter is a much larger concern.

I picked option 2. I'm not a racist, but illegals come here, steal our jobs, don't pay taxes, and expect that they should be allowed to stay.

You know a lot of Americans that are hard up for strawberry picking jobs?

Ranging from none to owing the government rights.

Incidentally, why no option in the poll for deporting them, and all other non-contributing third generation or less immigrants?

Ranging from none to owing the government rights.

Incidentally, why no option in the poll for deporting them, and all other non-contributing third generation or less immigrants?

My brother has a great deal of compassion for the illegal immigrants because he has a great love for foreign culture. He realizes how good we all have it here in the USA and doesn't think deporting is the right choice. We both agree that they'd only try to get back in after they were deported. It'd be the same as :headbang: but with a lot more cost for the US Gov't. Deporting would cost us money. But the other problem is that holding them in jail would cost us money because we need to clothe them, give them water to wash themselves, and food and that's all tax payers money but my brother tends to disagree. He believes that if we do it for POWs we should do it for them too. I can't make up my mind, I guess you could call me apathetic.

Immediate deportation on first offense.
Nothing quite as nice for later offenses.


Illegal immigration is a crime.
It should be persecuted with the utmost rigor.
To aid and abet illegal immigration is a criminal conspiracy.


You may be compassionate with your own goods.
To do so with public goods is, to put it kindly, misuse of public property, and to put it harshly, larceny!

Thing is my brother knows its true but hates it. He started this thread for the single reason of finding what the right choice would be. We don't know any Illegal Immigrants personally but if you walk through the center of our town you see a heck of a lot non-English speaking immigrants who are just day laborers. It's a shame.

Immediate deportation on first offense.
Nothing quite as nice for later offenses.


Illegal immigration is a crime.
It should be persecuted with the utmost rigor.
To aid and abet illegal immigration is a criminal conspiracy.


You may be compassionate with your own goods.
To do so with public goods is, to put it kindly, misuse of public property, and to put it harshly, larceny!
Indeed. All involved in the crime should be persecuted in fact.

Immediate deportation on first offense.
What the hell do you think the border patrol does all day? They arrest on average at least 20 people/day and that's just in the Pima county area.
Nothing quite as nice for later offenses.
Assuming they survive for later offences, and how the hell do you expect to know whether or not they've tried to come here berfore? I'll bet they all look the same to you.

Illegal immigration is a crime.
It should be persecuted with the utmost rigor.
To aid and abet illegal immigration is a criminal conspiracy.
And that's exactly what we're trying to do here. The problem is that without building a moat guarded by the army, there are going to be people illegally entering the U.S. The best remedy is find a solution for those who have successfully made it instead of naively saying we should deport all of them.

Being a non-American i don't really care but i wanted to add this: Immigrants do pay taxes whenever they pay an indirect charge eg: sales tax. Also because of how the American social welfare system is operated immigrants like every other poor person must work at least on a subsistence level and becuase they have not grown up in the USA nor are they able to access its benefits scheme they produce a net economic affect on the economy.

Likewise they accept lower wages and worse condtions inflating the profitis of American operated businesses as well as increasing total productivity which flows back into the economy. So immigrants do provide ecnomic stimulation and it is unfair to describe them as hostile parasites draining the economy becuase in truth the underclass of low-waged immigrants is one of the pillars of American ecnomic strength.

Finally if you really wanted to stop illegal immigration the first place would be to crack down on those who employee them/ force employees to pay equal wages regardless of where the worker ceoms from. If there is no comparative economic incentive less immigrants will come. Exactly the same applies to business which will be less enthusiastic about employing immigrants for equal american wages with the threat of tough legal action included.

1. What the hell do you think the border patrol does all day? They arrest on average at least 20 people/day and that's just in the Pima county area.

2. Assuming they survive for later offences, and how the hell do you expect to know whether or not they've tried to come here berfore? I'll bet they all look the same to you.

3. And that's exactly what we're trying to do here. The problem is that without building a moat guarded by the army, there are going to be people illegally entering the U.S. The best remedy is find a solution for those who have successfully made it instead of naively saying we should deport all of them.

1. Are there other agencies that could be brought to play INSIDE the US?
Doesn't seem too hard to me.
Example.. all health facilities could be forced to carry out checks on the legality of a client's residence inside the US. Ditto for schools.

2. DNA records...

3.That's a slacker solution. Act vigorously, and employ zero-tolerance.