NationStates Jolt Archive

I got interested after playing W40k: Dawn of War. What's the tabletop like?

A bit pricey to collect, takes a long time to run through any sizeable battle, and the rules can be analyzed and exploited fairly easily.

That said, the pieces are cool, and I've seen some great battles go down at gaming conventions.

The lead... the lead... ;)

That being said, a friend of mine has loads of fun with it. He also has loads of fun saving every scrap item he can find to make a 3D battle field as well.

What he said, plus they tend to change the rules and the like on a rather too-regular basis. When I first played it (about 16 or 17 years ago, I think). It was 10-20 men each side. With each subsequent rule change its been simplified to appeal to a younger and younger market, and use more and more models (from which GW make the bulk of their profit, as far as I know).

Tyranids rule! Rawr!

Get Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

Far more fun and far FAR more big swords and axes.

And halberds...plus flame cannons are fun, and gyrocopters...:D

What he said, plus they tend to change the rules and the like on a rather too-regular basis. When I first played it (about 16 or 17 years ago, I think). It was 10-20 men each side. With each subsequent rule change its been simplified to appeal to a younger and younger market, and use more and more models (from which GW make the bulk of their profit, as far as I know).

The rules changes aren't really that drastic anymore. Also, they're only on the 4th edition, so it's not like they change every six months or so.

GW got burned by a lot of players leaving when they made the huge change from 2nd to 3rd edition, so they're making sure that the things you have will still be useable with every rules change.

The problem with GW's systems are that you have to pay multiple times more for a single figure of 'high importance' as you do for a 'basic unit' of several figures. 'Just because' it's a higher points value.

And the fact that when there was a near-global price rise of lead figures a short time back, due to rising costs of the metal, GW increased their prices proportionally. Even for the plastic figures.

And several other problems, but if you're not planning on attending the hyper-restrictive 'official' tourneys, you'll probably be Ok jumping into the wargaming scene, but woe betide you turn up at an official one and get told half your figures can't be used as you think they can because you haven't attached the holsters to the figures correctly (or something equally petty) thus meaning you can't provide small-arms support with them (even though all players know from the begining that your otherwise perfectly cosntructed and painted figures are representative of a unit capable of such actions).

Sorry. I'm channelling frustration from people I know, here.

it got an 8.25 in GameInformer

I used to play in middle school and the first couple years of hs- but like was posted earlier- I dropped when they switched to 3rd ed. I just didn't have to money to have that big of an army... my Dark Angels are still in a box in my closet tho...

It was fun to play, altho I do remember a LOT of rules exploiting... I had one of the assassin dudes- believe me, I did everything I could to "cheat" without actually cheating... good times, and I do have Dawn of War (purchased for nostalgia reasons) and enjoy it

Flames of War (http://www.flamesofwar.com/) is better. That's what I know. :p

It seems like fun, but I prefer Arcana Evolved (the D&D variant) myself.

The problem with GW's systems are that you have to pay multiple times more for a single figure of 'high importance' as you do for a 'basic unit' of several figures. 'Just because' it's a higher points value.

And the fact that when there was a near-global price rise of lead figures a short time back, due to rising costs of the metal, GW increased their prices proportionally. Even for the plastic figures.

And several other problems, but if you're not planning on attending the hyper-restrictive 'official' tourneys, you'll probably be Ok jumping into the wargaming scene, but woe betide you turn up at an official one and get told half your figures can't be used as you think they can because you haven't attached the holsters to the figures correctly (or something equally petty) thus meaning you can't provide small-arms support with them (even though all players know from the begining that your otherwise perfectly cosntructed and painted figures are representative of a unit capable of such actions).

Sorry. I'm channelling frustration from people I know, here.


Yeah, I quit WH:FB because of the rules change a few years ago, made my army (that I had spent years perfecting on the little money I had) obsolete, so I just gave up and played the 'old' rules with my mates. My army (all 5k points of it) is just sitting in a glass cabinet, caus after spending that much effort on collecting and painting it, you don't want to throw it all away.

That said I got more in RPG's after that (D20 systems and the Warhammer RPG)

It great get the expansion winter assault and makes it more fun.

And the fact that when there was a near-global price rise of lead figures a short time back, due to rising costs of the metal, GW increased their prices proportionally. Even for the plastic figures.

That's why I very very rarely buy from GW. Ebay is the way to go these days.

One advantage of WFB over W40K is the fact that there are a huge number of companies making equally good or better, but much cheaper miniatures that are suitable for WFB - but not for 40k.

It great get the expansion winter assault and makes it more fun.

I'm talking about the tabletop.

Anybody know anything about Warhammer 40000?
It's set in a distant future. In a galaxy far far away.

The Imperium (Humans) are one of the major factions. They have bio-engineered Space Marines, comparatively cannon-fodder Imperial Guards, and also include a few Tech Priests and Psykers amonst an assortment of special units they bring to bear. Their tactics run a vast spectrum from brutal melee pileons to superior firepower from a distance.

Tyrannids make up the Generic Insectoid Aliens group of WH4K. While they have a few ranged units, most of them are about drooling, slavering up close and personal combat and the means to survive punishment in return.

Eldars are the obligatory elf species. Fair deal of technology but also more penchance towards psionics and other mystical units.

Orks are the obligatory orc species. Sovietesque craptech and mass swarm tactics with the occasional shamanic magic.

Necrons. A race of Terminators with the habit of Being Back all too often.

Tau. An alien species divided into five elemental castes, each specializing in a particular essential field, including fighting. Emphasis on high tech firepower and related tactics. Closest thing to squeaky-clean good guys in the WH4K Universe. A good choice for Japanimation fans.

I'm currently obsessed with Techpriest Enginseers. They project an aura of coolness that's usually reserved for the best fighters.

Tyrannids make up the Generic Insectoid Aliens group of WH4K. While they have a few ranged units, most of them are about drooling, slavering up close and personal combat and the means to survive punishment in return.And is it true that (under latest rules) Genestealers are just a marginal subset of the Tyrranids?

To be honest, I've never played a 'vanilla' game of 40K in my life (indeed, of any wargaming/releplaying system), thanks to a GM who knows just how to blend different systems together just right to cover any failings/gaps in the gameplay...

I'm currently obsessed with Techpriest Enginseers. They project an aura of coolness that's usually reserved for the best fighters.
From what I've seen, I'd like the Eldar most. I'm not sure if they're in WH40K though.

From what I've seen, I'd like the Eldar most. I'm not sure if they're in WH40K though.

Yup.

But why play WH40k when you can play FoW? It sense not make to me does.

I got interested after playing W40k: Dawn of War. What's the tabletop like?
Not nearly as good as any other games workshops games
Im disappointed in 40k

Yup.

But why play WH40k when you can play FoW? It sense not make to me does.
What is FoW?

FoW=Flames of War.

It's a WWII-based wargame by a company based out of New Zealand called "BattleFront". The game is company level command (batallion for the Soviets), in 15mm (1/100) scale, and it has rules that are suprising easy to learn and intuitive, especially for WH40k players. Your average army will need around four-six platoons (including support, and excluding the Soviets). And with full platoons running around US$18 a blister and tanks and other support options usually running at US$9 or US$11, it's a very cheap game to get into (especially if you go with Germans).

Right now they have Germans, Soviets, Americans, British and British Commonwealth with lists for each allowing you to run an armored company, mechanized infantry, motorized infantry, infantry, light infantry, or paratroopers (or cavalry for the Soviets). They also have some lists for Free French, Hungarians, Finns, Romanians, and Slovakians, list variations for things like mountain troops, Waffen-SS, the Nisei, and so forth. And no one is missing anything in miniature, except for the Hungarians, Finns, and Romanians (although that will be fixed this summer).

For a simple introduction to WH40K, pick up a "boxed set" on ebay. For a fun wargame, get the RT or 2nd ed rules.

I still play, but not the 2 latest editions. WH40K these days, is pretty much a table top version of any generic RTS game. Not the sort of thing I fancy spending half a weekend doing.

The old versions, however, are brilliant. The rules are pretty unbalanced, asd others have pointed out. Fielding an imperial army against anything but Eldar, and getting the first turn, for example, can end a game instantly, if you're equipped with a virus bomb. Thankfully players come equipped with things like common sense, imagination & an urge to have fun, which means they'll make house rules about the more insane bits.

Both RT & 2nd ed 40K are quirky games, to say the least. There's something very gratifying about having your insane, drunk Ork Mek open up a hole in the fabric of reality & kick a herd of minute, drooling Snotlings through it, right into the the fine mechanics of a big fucking tank or slavering Dreadnought.

Likewise, doing a suicide run with your bike riding space marine hero, right up to the biggest Tyranid monster on the board & shooting it with a gravition gun, is hillarious.

Obviously, the game is meant to be played when you're properly shitfaced, and fully able to appreciate the pure insanity of it all. And while the old versions are tactical games, there's a large element of luck involved as well. Strange shit happens all the time, and usually not in a beneficial way. Having your Shaman's head explode, killing half a unit of your drunken ork scum, for example, can only be properly appreciated when you're unable to put together a sentence.

Balance issues. Something that afflicts FoW not. ;)

I have played WFB and WH40K . Now I play Lord of the Rings. I think GW has the best quality of tin miniatures and their rules are very good

Balance issues. Something that afflicts FoW not. ;)Balance issues aren't all they're cracked up to be, and they're probably impossible to completely avoid in a fantasy setting with highly diverse factions.

FoW & WH40K are completely different things, appealing to different personalities. There's no reason to try to compare them. Unlike FoW, which tries to represent relality, WH40K pitches science-fantasy creatures & weaponry against eachother, in a highly satirical manner.

FoW is a sort of chess-player's table top game, while WH40K is the game of choice for the drunk, deranged & silly. And that's why there's balance issues in WH40K. A coat of red paint for a wartruck, makes it go faster in-game. A red-painted tank in FoW would be completely non-sensical. Equipping a squad with chainsaws in FoW isn't only impossible, it would probably also weight them down & be useless in melee, if it was translated into game mechanics. In WH40K, chainsaws looks nicely menacing & therefore, they're the choice weapon of a whole lot of different combatants.

Realism is fairly easy to represent as game mechanics. Hillarious & grotesque violence is a bit more tricky, because most of the things involved couldn't possibly work in the real world. Cool gadgets, like a virus bomb, sometimes mess up certain game mechanics. The virus bomb, for example, transmits a devastatingly lethal disease over a short range. In this respect, it's perfectly well-balanced. But when a "horde" army is set up on the table, it's usually densely packed because of limited table space. Thus the virus bomb might suddenly be able to instantly wipe out an army, instead of a single unit.

On the other hand, mishaps in WH40K are easy to remedy. All it takes, is a reasonable compromise & good humour. In FoW, broken game mechanics might be somewhat harder to work out, because of the competitive & realistic nature of the game.

Games like FoW doesn't appeal to me at all. They're just stone-age versions of computer games, so not only are players stuck with constrictive rules & limitations, they also have to do all the tedious bits, like dice rolling & such.

WH40K, on the other hand, is a riot. If I wish to field something completely unconventional, like an army composed solely of suicidal Orks on bikes, armed with nothing but steel cap's & molo's, it takes all of ten minutes to work out the details of it with my opponent. The game isn't very well suited for hihly competitive opponents, but it is brilliant for the people who like to mess with outlandish mini's & have fun with odd monsters.

Yup.

But why play WH40k when you can play FoW? It sense not make to me does.

People play 40k largely for the background and atmosphere of the universe. The rules certainly have some serious issues (see Necromunda or Battlefleet Gothic for far better rules) but it's the background that makes me stay.

Anyway, for people who are wondering what 40k is all about

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/gettingstarted/intro.htm

I love the background of WH40k and play Dawn of War. But why I'd go to the 'stone-aged version' of WH40k, as The Similized world so eloquantly put it, is beyond me.

Well, I like the whole modelling and painting parts of it too. I'm not particularly good at either, but I do enjoy them.

I played WH40K and Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine until a little while before the Necron force was added.

As someone has already said - it's the atmosphere you play for (at least, in the early editions)... there is something intrinsically appealing (if you like that kind of thing) about fielding Space Marines, when there are less than 1000 'chapters' remaining, and each has less than 1000 soldiers (theoretically). Similarly, fielding Eldar Aspect warriors from one of the dying craftworlds, and backing your force with Harlequin Deathjesters...

Some people complain about the lack of balance, but that is something you can argue out between your players. In our game group, we stopped using Imperial Assassins, for example, because they were WAY too powerful, even though they were 'points' expensive. Similarly, in our group, we chose to reduce the 'point cost' of Imperial Robots, because they were drastically underpowered for their 'game value'.

If you are going to play these games regularly, the WH40K rules (the earlier versions, I'm out of touch now) were really pretty good, and easily adaptable... and playing against the same people a lot helps you work out your own collective 'balance'.

My favourite was Adeptus Titanicus, which was kind of like Battletech, but more fun and easier to play.

I got interested after playing W40k: Dawn of War. What's the tabletop like?

Not terribly good. I've played for a while and eventually I found it unsatisfying. Games Workshop are a pretty lousy company too.

The game is pretty good. Fairly solid rules and all but the level of tactical detail is lacking, it tends to be more about the dice and the army selection than about your own tactics.

Try and find people who play Starship Troopers (www.mongoosepublishing.com) or Warmachine (www.privateerpress.com) near you. Both are cheaper and far superior games. Got into Warmachine last year and never looked back.

Warmachine is a skirmish level game featuring Dreadnought-type robots powered by steam and magic. Put it this way, a Dreadnought can only punch an opponent. A Warjack (Warmachine equivalent) can headbutt, throw, barge or even grapple an opponent down. Very satisfying. Plus you can get the rules for free and a starter set costs £25/$40 for over half a standard army as opposed to £40 for the Battle For Macragge set.

Troopers is based more off the book than the movie so you get your power armoured MI jumping about, shooting anything from assault rifles through napalm and plasma warheads right up to tactical nuclear weapons. And the bugs get to tunnel under the MI positions, collapse the ground or burst out in a slavering horde bent on killing everything with less than 6 limbs.

And you get the Skinnies as a playable race. Oh yes... (I play tham and they farkin' ROCK!)

EDIT- In all fairness. I love the 40k background. I remain a fan to this day, I just really don't like the game or the company. I do occasionally think of playing an Inquisition army using Viridian Stormtroopers from Urban War (crummy game but some sweet-ass models) but I'm saving for HORDES (new game from privateer Press, world release on April 22) and the next round of Skinnie releases in March/April.

Dark Eldar are so nerfed it isn't funny. Oh well I play Dark Elves in every game that Games Workshop makes and most of them suck. But I like the pain.

Ehh. There was a very brief period when a few of my friends and I thought it would be fun to collect our own armies and play each other. Then everyone just sort of lost interest, probably because the figurines are so damn expensive and tedious to put together and paint. That's why I gave it up, anyway - and also because if my friends weren't doing it, what was the point? Luckily I didn't end up wasting too much money on it.