NationStates Jolt Archive


And so it begins again: protest as hate crime

Eutrusca
03-03-2006, 16:11
COMMENTARY: This is where it always leads. This is where it lead during the "protests" during the Vietnam war. Neither I nor thousands of other veterans will tolerate this. If you know any "protestors," you can do them a great favor by telling them in no uncertain terms that this sort of behavior could easily result in a considerably shortened life-span.


Police to protect vandalized home of fallen soldier


Associated Press
KOKOMO, Ind. — Police posted an around-the-clock security watch at the home of an Indiana soldier killed last week in Iraq after it was vandalized and his family received disturbing phone calls.

The home of Sgt. Rickey Jones was egged Saturday, three days after Jones’ family learned the 21-year-old and three other soldiers had been killed by a roadside bomb north of Baghdad. His family also received phone calls in which the caller said: “I’m glad your son is dead.”

The actions drew the attention of an Indiana congressman, Rep. Steve Buyer, a Republican who also chairs the House Veterans’ Affairs Committee.

“It is outrageous, appalling and indecent for an American citizen to commit crimes and perversions against a family grieving at the loss of their son,” Buyer said.

On Thursday, he spoke on the House floor asking his fellow lawmakers to stand and observe a moment of silence “to condemn these despicable acts.”

“A great virtue of the American character is our compassion. It is how we care for each other in good times and in difficult times,” he said. “It is our compassion and human decency that represents the very best of our nation.”
Sinuhue
03-03-2006, 16:14
You know I don't support your stance on war, or on glorifying soldiers...but no one who has lost a relative deserves having someone call and say, "yeah, I'm glad so and so is dead". It makes me cringe.
Argesia
03-03-2006, 16:14
What is the point? That some protesters are idiots? And what is the connection with Vietnam?
This is just you saying "two wrongs make a right".
Drunk commies deleted
03-03-2006, 16:16
That's fucking disgusting. I hope "counter-protesters" get together and start handing out beat downs to these cowardly punks. Oh, and this is coming from someone who was totally dead set against the Iraq war.
Gift-of-god
03-03-2006, 16:17
Well, whoever did these acts is a disgusting and horrible person with no compassion whatsoever. However, there seems to be no indication that the person or people who did this have anything to do with people who are protesting the war. It could just as easily be some sick, twisted fuck who had a personal grudge against the fallen soldier or his family.

Eutrusca, your condemnation of all protestors due to the acts of one person who may not even be a protestor is a generalisation. When you add that to the veiled threat in your OP, I am reminded of the police who use violence against peoplewho are merely exercising their legal rights. It is wrong, and you should know better.
Drunk commies deleted
03-03-2006, 16:17
What is the point? That some protesters are idiots? And what is the connection with Vietnam?
This is just you saying "two wrongs make a right".
The connection to Vietnam is that the same stuff was being done to the families of fallen soldiers in that war. Imagine what kind of self-righteous shithead it takes to call up a grieving family and gloat over their child's death. Imagine it happening to your family. It's simply unacceptable behavior.
Luporum
03-03-2006, 16:17
That's fucking disgusting. I hope "counter-protesters" get together and start handing out beat downs to these cowardly punks. Oh, and this is coming from someone who was totally dead set against the Iraq war.

Where are those bikers when ya need em?
Skinny87
03-03-2006, 16:18
I have no particular love for the Iraq War or those who served there - but this is disgusting and immoral. I don't advocate violence, but I can easily understand where Eutrusca is coming from. It wouldn't be right, but more than understandable. Oh, I believe this sort of thing happened to Vietnam veterans as well - I read up a little on the subject a while ago.
Teh_pantless_hero
03-03-2006, 16:18
What is the point? That some protesters are idiots? And what is the connection with Vietnam?
This is just you saying "two wrongs make a right".
I think Eutrusca had his wires crossed in Vietnam, so let's just ignore all of his posts that deal with "logical" conclusions.
Argesia
03-03-2006, 16:21
The connection to Vietnam is that the same stuff was being done to the families of fallen soldiers in that war. Imagine what kind of self-righteous shithead it takes to call up a grieving family and gloat over their child's death. Imagine it happening to your family. It's simply unacceptable behavior.
I don't encorage that behaviour, but it doesn't really count as a "hate crime". I would classify it as insensitivity.
About the melodrama of the subject, I got it from the beginning. You needen't illustrate it further. What I was in fact asking was how could anyone establish a general context or a programme to "explain" such occurencies? It would either be sophistry or insanity.
Von Witzleben
03-03-2006, 16:22
Wheres the hatecrime?
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 16:23
The home of Sgt. Rickey Jones was egged Saturday

*shrug* No reason to get all riled up. After all, it's only eggs.

Can't get all riled up over "just a cartoon", but ...


I hope "counter-protesters" get together and start handing out beat downs to these cowardly punks.

Someone should get a beat down over eggs?

Hrmmm.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 16:24
Wheres the hatecrime?

Man on House crime. Houses are a minority that should be protected.
Drunk commies deleted
03-03-2006, 16:27
*shrug* No reason to get all riled up. After all, it's only eggs.

Can't get all riled up over "just a cartoon", but ...




Someone should get a beat down over eggs?

Hrmmm.
Yeah, someone should get a beat down over eggs. As if a family in mourning has nothing better to do than clean the eggs off of their house. What if a woman's husband was just killed overseas. She's busy taking care of their kids, making funeral arrangements, dealing with her grief, and now some punk's splattering her house with eggs to give her one more thing to worry about.

Violence is too underutilized in our society.
Really Nice Hats
03-03-2006, 16:30
Forget counter-protestors; I'd much rather see vicious dogs and tigers go after these losers.
Argesia
03-03-2006, 16:31
Yeah, someone should get a beat down over eggs. As if a family in mourning has nothing better to do than clean the eggs off of their house. What if a woman's husband was just killed overseas. She's busy taking care of their kids, making funeral arrangements, dealing with her grief, and now some punk's splattering her house with eggs to give her one more thing to worry about.

Violence is too underutilized in our society.
Well, since we pulled out the sophistry gun, lemme ask: wouldn't that family rather be cleaning egg off their house than burying their son?
Anybody can sketch a soap opera, but not all do it because "Violence is too underutilized in our society". Your point is lacking.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 16:37
Violence is too underutilized in our society.

I see. But weren't you against embassy burnings and whatnot?

Myself, I say ignore it. Be the better person. If someone egged my house for that reason, I'd shrug and say, "Well ... that's what they died to protect."

Not like anyone got hurt.
Drunk commies deleted
03-03-2006, 16:39
I see. But weren't you against embassy burnings and whatnot?

Myself, I say ignore it. Be the better person. If someone egged my house for that reason, I'd shrug and say, "Well ... that's what they died to protect."

Not like anyone got hurt.
Egging someone else's property isn't freedom of speech.
Earabia
03-03-2006, 16:39
The sad fact is that it is sick and disgusting that it even happened, no matter how much you disagree witht he politics of this war, it is still sickening...:sniper:
Drunk commies deleted
03-03-2006, 16:41
Well, since we pulled out the sophistry gun, lemme ask: wouldn't that family rather be cleaning egg off their house than burying their son?
Anybody can sketch a soap opera, but not all do it because "Violence is too underutilized in our society". Your point is lacking.
Sorry, I'm not following you. What's that about a soap opera?
Argesia
03-03-2006, 16:42
Sorry, I'm not following you. What's that about a soap opera?
All of this is sheer sentimentalism, that was my point.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 16:42
Egging someone else's property isn't freedom of speech.

No, but it could be argued that since a soldier is government property and, therefore, a public figure, then such an act could be protected under freedom of expression.

Also, drawing a cartoon intentionally to incite a riot is not protected free speech either.
Nyuujaku
03-03-2006, 16:43
Egging someone else's property isn't freedom of speech.
Neither is beating them down for it.
Von Witzleben
03-03-2006, 16:45
Man on House crime. Houses are a minority that should be protected.
:D Of course. Why didn't I think of that.:D
Shlarg
03-03-2006, 16:45
Some people will use the anti-war stance as an excuse for vandalism when in reality they're as politically unaware as they are insensitive to the family of this soldier.
Luporum
03-03-2006, 16:45
No, but it could be argued that since a soldier is government property and, therefore, a public figure, then such an act could be protected under freedom of expression.

Also, drawing a cartoon intentionally to incite a riot is not protected free speech either.

The first case is destruction of public property.

The second case is what's known as "Violence Speech" which isn't protecting under the first amendment.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 16:46
The first case is destruction of public property.


What got destroyed?
Teh_pantless_hero
03-03-2006, 16:48
What got destroyed?
Alot of potential baby chickens?
Luporum
03-03-2006, 16:48
What got destroyed?

Defacing falls under destruction of public property. Hence egging a government owned building is not protected under the freedom of expression.
Drunk commies deleted
03-03-2006, 16:49
All of this is sheer sentimentalism, that was my point.
Well, I'm just a sweet, sentimental guy. Sorry, but I won't appologize.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 16:49
Defacing falls under destruction of public property. Hence egging a government owned building is not protected under the freedom of expression.

It was a privately owned home, not a government building.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 16:50
Alot of potential baby chickens?

Well I am pro-choice. :D
Drunk commies deleted
03-03-2006, 16:51
No, but it could be argued that since a soldier is government property and, therefore, a public figure, then such an act could be protected under freedom of expression.

Also, drawing a cartoon intentionally to incite a riot is not protected free speech either.
Damaging someone else's property is never covered under freedom of speech. Don't believe me? Go egg the local police station, or the Donut shop, whichever has more cops in it at the time.

The cartoons weren't drawn to incite a riot. They were drawn to explore the issue of self-censorship due to fear of Muslim retaliation.
Argesia
03-03-2006, 16:51
Well, I'm just a sweet, sentimental guy. Sorry, but I won't appologize.
Fine, be tacky.
Megaloria
03-03-2006, 16:53
They should be egged right back. And then jailed.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 16:54
Damaging someone else's property is never covered under freedom of speech. Don't believe me? Go egg the local police station, or the Donut shop, whichever has more cops in it at the time.

Nothing got damaged. Property damage is assessed in dollar amounts. How much does it cost to run a garden hose for 2 minutes?

The cartoons weren't drawn to incite a riot. They were drawn to explore the issue of self-censorship due to fear of Muslim retaliation.

Actually, in one of the published apologies, it was admitted that the cartoons were drawn specifically to get a reaction.
Skinny87
03-03-2006, 16:54
Fine, be tacky.

Whilst I agree that violence is not the answer, do you not find this to be somewhat awful? Not just the egging but the phonecalls stating that the caller is glad the bereaved family's son is dead? Even regardless of the son's status as a soldier, is this not going against decent human compassion and humanity?
Refused Party Program
03-03-2006, 16:54
The cartoons weren't drawn to incite a riot. They were drawn to explore the issue of self-censorship due to fear of Muslim retaliation.

Exactly. They were re-printed to incite riots.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 16:54
They should be egged right back. And then jailed.

Throwing eggs at a person is battery and could be a felony.
Luporum
03-03-2006, 16:55
It was a privately owned home, not a government building.

Then it's destruction of private property, still illegal.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 16:57
Whilst I agree that violence is not the answer, do you not find this to be somewhat awful? Not just the egging but the phonecalls stating that the caller is glad the bereaved family's son is dead? Even regardless of the son's status as a soldier, is this not going against decent human compassion and humanity?

Meh ... people have the right to protest war and they have the right to not support the troops who actively participate. Just because someone passed their MEPS and spent 8 weeks standing at attention and polishing shoes doesn't mean they should be placed on a pedestal.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 16:58
Then it's destruction of private property, still illegal.

Nothing got destroyed.
Sinuhue
03-03-2006, 16:59
Violence is too underutilized in our society.
*takes a step back and examines that statement*

Hmm.
Teh_pantless_hero
03-03-2006, 16:59
Throwing eggs at a person is battery and could be a felony.
Those shells are sharp.
Skinny87
03-03-2006, 16:59
Meh ... people have the right to protest war and they have the right to not support the troops who actively participate. Just because someone passed their MEPS and spent 8 weeks standing at attention and polishing shoes doesn't mean they should be placed on a pedestal.

You'll notice I never said such a thing. I asked that, regardless of the son's status as a soldier, is this not going beyond human decency and basic morals? The son could be a doctor, lawyer or any such profession, it doesn't matter.
Luporum
03-03-2006, 17:00
Nothing got destroyed.

Their home was defaced and devalued, they can press charges if they please and be reinbursed for any damages. Petty but still illegal.

I'm not arguing against protesting the war by any means, but there are more peaceful legal means of doing so. Like flag burning. (depending on the county you live in and the local fire safety laws and as long as it is your flag.)
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 17:00
Those shells are sharp.

I suppose it could be Assault With a Tastey Weapon.
Argesia
03-03-2006, 17:00
Whilst I agree that violence is not the answer, do you not find this to be somewhat awful? Not just the egging but the phonecalls stating that the caller is glad the bereaved family's son is dead? Even regardless of the son's status as a soldier, is this not going against decent human compassion and humanity?
Haven't I already posted that I did think it did just that?
If this thread aims to be a way for people to pay their respects or whatever, then let me point out that the message had bias added to it from the very beginning. We wouldn't even be taliking about this if not to deplore the "follies of peace activism". And the tone of it was pure melodrama.
Drunk commies deleted
03-03-2006, 17:01
Nothing got damaged. Property damage is assessed in dollar amounts. How much does it cost to run a garden hose for 2 minutes?



Actually, in one of the published apologies, it was admitted that the cartoons were drawn specifically to get a reaction.
1) It's considered vandalism. Once again, if you dont' believe me do it and see if you win the resulting court case.

2) I'd agree that it was wrong if they were drawn on the walls of a mosque. As it was they were drawn in a newspaper.

I don't go around picking fights with Nation of Islam members because some of their publications depict white people as devils. Actual Muslims shouldn't go around starting shit because a Danish publication insults them.
Sdaeriji
03-03-2006, 17:02
Defacing falls under destruction of public property. Hence egging a government owned building is not protected under the freedom of expression.

Egging a house falls under vandalism, which is a crime.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 17:02
You'll notice I never said such a thing. I asked that, regardless of the son's status as a soldier, is this not going beyond human decency and basic morals? The son could be a doctor, lawyer or any such profession, it doesn't matter.

Oh I dunno ... depends, doesn't it?

Doctors who abort fetuses get egged all the time. Lawyers who defend serial child rapists get egged. Politicians get pied. The prom queen gets her house tp'd.

I'd say it's harmless.
Drunk commies deleted
03-03-2006, 17:02
Throwing eggs at a person is battery and could be a felony.
Why? How much medical attention does some egg white and yolk require? It only takes a couple of minutes in the shower to wash it off?
Luporum
03-03-2006, 17:03
Egging a house falls under vandalism, which is a crime.

I am ashamed of my ignorance.

*goes to commit Seppeku*
Sdaeriji
03-03-2006, 17:04
Oh I dunno ... depends, doesn't it?

Doctors who abort fetuses get egged all the time. Lawyers who defend serial child rapists get egged. Politicians get pied. The prom queen gets her house tp'd.

I'd say it's harmless.

It's still a crime and prosecutable if desired.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 17:05
1) It's considered vandalism. Once again, if you dont' believe me do it and see if you win the resulting court case.


Oh feh ... I couldn't tell you the number of houses I've egged, tp'd, or boot-blacked the windows. Been caught a couple of times, but never arrested. Just made to clean it up.

As I said. Defacement of property, vandalism, and other similar crimes are placed in dollar value. Two minutes with a garden hose takes care of some eggs. No value loss, no crime.
Megaloria
03-03-2006, 17:06
I suppose it could be Assault With a Tastey Weapon.

No, no. Eggravated Assault.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 17:07
Why? How much medical attention does some egg white and yolk require? It only takes a couple of minutes in the shower to wash it off?

Depends on how hard the eggs are thrown and if they're hard-boiled or not.

We're talking about a house, not a person.
Sdaeriji
03-03-2006, 17:07
Oh feh ... I couldn't tell you the number of houses I've egged, tp'd, or boot-blacked the windows. Been caught a couple of times, but never arrested. Just made to clean it up.

As I said. Defacement of property, vandalism, and other similar crimes are placed in dollar value. Two minutes with a garden hose takes care of some eggs. No value loss, no crime.

That's just not true. It's still a crime whether or not there's a value loss, and just because you've gotten away with it in the past doesn't make it not a crime.
Keruvalia
03-03-2006, 17:08
No, no. Eggravated Assault.

I just spit coffee on my monitor. Thanks.

Damn that's funny. I'm gonna giggle over that one for a while.
Boobeeland
03-03-2006, 17:08
*shrug* No reason to get all riled up. After all, it's only eggs.

Can't get all riled up over "just a cartoon", but ...




Someone should get a beat down over eggs?

Hrmmm.

Eggs, if left unattended, can cause property damage. I speak from experience, having egged some farm equipment. It can eat the paint right off of things. So 'just eggs' is vandalism and illegal.
Drunk commies deleted
03-03-2006, 17:09
*takes a step back and examines that statement*

Hmm.
Aren't there are situations when someone's lack of driving skills or petty crime make you want to hurt him just a little. I'm not talking about hospitalizing someone, but just a quick little beating to make you feel better.;)
Sdaeriji
03-03-2006, 17:10
Depends on how hard the eggs are thrown and if they're hard-boiled or not.

We're talking about a house, not a person.

No, it doesn't matter. Egging someone with soft-boiled, hard-boiled, scrambled, over-easy, or raw eggs are all just as much against the law as one another.
Non Aligned States
03-03-2006, 17:12
Why? How much medical attention does some egg white and yolk require? It only takes a couple of minutes in the shower to wash it off?

Well, you never know. It might end up putting out an eye or something. Beside, in most cases, its intent that makes the difference between an accident and battery doesn't it? I mean, if a guy tried to punch you but could only muster a hit that wouldn't even knock down a fly, it would still count as assault if the intent was there.
Sinuhue
03-03-2006, 17:13
No, it doesn't matter. Egging someone with soft-boiled, hard-boiled, scrambled, over-easy, or raw eggs are all just as much against the law as one another.
Don’t forget folks…assault can be defined as loosely as someone feeling threatened by violence. So if you slam a pile of books onto the desk of a fellow co-worker and make a mean face, and he really believes you are about to do him violence, that can be considered assault.
Gift-of-god
03-03-2006, 17:15
So, I tried to find the article on the internet, but couldn't find the exact one that Eutrusca quoted.

However, I did find this:
http://www.perutribune.com/articles/2006/03/02/state_news/1state.txt

KOKOMO, Ind. (AP) - Police posted an around-the-clock security watch at the home of an Indiana soldier killed last week in Iraq after it was vandalized and his family received disturbing phone calls.

The home of Sgt. Rickey Jones was egged Saturday, three days after Jones' family learned the 21-year-old and three other soldiers had been killed by a roadside bomb north of Baghdad. His family also received phone calls in which the caller said: ‘‘I'm glad your son is dead.''

Now, Jones' relatives and police are bracing for the possibility that a Topeka, Kan.-based group will protest at his funeral Monday.

Members of the Westboro Baptist Church have protested at military funerals across the nation, including shouting insults at soldiers' surviving relatives and holding signs that read ‘‘God Made IEDs'' - a reference to roadside bombs.

The group claims American soldiers are dying in Iraq due to divine intervention because the United States harbors homosexuals.

It would appear that these actions have more to do with Phelps than with any real protest movement.
Teh_pantless_hero
03-03-2006, 17:20
Why? How much medical attention does some egg white and yolk require? It only takes a couple of minutes in the shower to wash it off?
Eggshells are sharp. Shows what you know.

Now, if it was hardboiled eggs, that would be awesome. You could replace waterballoon fights with that shit.
Drunk commies deleted
03-03-2006, 17:41
Eggshells are sharp. Shows what you know.

Now, if it was hardboiled eggs, that would be awesome. You could replace waterballoon fights with that shit.
I've never managed to cut myself on an egg shell.
Eutrusca
03-03-2006, 17:47
So, I tried to find the article on the internet, but couldn't find the exact one that Eutrusca quoted.

However, I did find this:
http://www.perutribune.com/articles/2006/03/02/state_news/1state.txt

It would appear that these actions have more to do with Phelps than with any real protest movement.
No. They just mentioned Phelps because he and his idiot church are in the news. Pure hypothesizing on the part of the reporter. Possibly wishful thinking as well.
Gift-of-god
03-03-2006, 17:52
No. They just mentioned Phelps because he and his idiot church are in the news. Pure hypothesizing on the part of the reporter. Possibly wishful thinking as well.

Yes. When I read the article that I linked to, there seemed to be no connection between the Westboro Baptist Church and the vandalism. However, these despicable actions seem, to me, more of a product of Phelpslike hate than anti-war sentiment.

I would also like to point out that your article (where did you find that anyway?) does not relate the vandalism and phone call to the anti-war movement either.
Eutrusca
03-03-2006, 18:06
Yes. When I read the article that I linked to, there seemed to be no connection between the Westboro Baptist Church and the vandalism. However, these despicable actions seem, to me, more of a product of Phelpslike hate than anti-war sentiment.

I would also like to point out that your article (where did you find that anyway?) does not relate the vandalism and phone call to the anti-war movement either.
The full article is here: http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1571393.php

Note that it's the Army Times quoting The Associated Press.

This is the sort of incident we use to hear about on an almost daily basis during Vietnam, in addition to soldiers being spat upon and called "baby-killers," both of which happened to me personally.
PsychoticDan
03-03-2006, 18:33
Well, whoever did these acts is a disgusting and horrible person with no compassion whatsoever. However, there seems to be no indication that the person or people who did this have anything to do with people who are protesting the war. It could just as easily be some sick, twisted fuck who had a personal grudge against the fallen soldier or his family.

Eutrusca, your condemnation of all protestors due to the acts of one person who may not even be a protestor is a generalisation. When you add that to the veiled threat in your OP, I am reminded of the police who use violence against peoplewho are merely exercising their legal rights. It is wrong, and you should know better.
If you re-read his post you'll notice he said "this sort of behavior." He is not talking about protesting teh war. He is talking specifically about vandalizing the homes of soldiers and making harrasing phone calls to the families of fallen soldiers. I'm against the war, but I'd like to kick the shit out of any pussy that would do something like this.
Bobs Own Pipe
03-03-2006, 19:14
Neither I nor thousands of other veterans will tolerate this. If you know any "protestors," you can do them a great favor by telling them in no uncertain terms that this sort of behavior could easily result in a considerably shortened life-span.
Who gives a damn what you and thousands of other willful dupes won't tolerate?

And if you happen to know anybody else who routinely soft-pedals war to impressionable young people, do them a great favour by telling them to shut the Hell up before I plant my foot up their lower intestines.
Santa Barbara
03-03-2006, 19:17
No, no. Eggravated Assault.

you win the thread.
Magdha
03-03-2006, 19:24
Violence is too underutilized in our society.

*adds to sig*
Gift-of-god
03-03-2006, 19:35
If you re-read his post you'll notice he said "this sort of behavior." He is not talking about protesting teh war. He is talking specifically about vandalizing the homes of soldiers and making harrasing phone calls to the families of fallen soldiers. I'm against the war, but I'd like to kick the shit out of any pussy that would do something like this.

If Eutrusca feels that I am putting words in his mouth, I am sure he is capable of telling me himself.
Heikoku
04-03-2006, 19:36
While I don't think egging the FAMILY'S house is right, I have to ask what's worse: Invading a country to kill people and blow up houses or invading a lawn to insult people and egg houses...
Peechland
04-03-2006, 19:45
While I don't think egging the FAMILY'S house is right, I have to ask what's worse: Invading a country to kill people and blow up houses or invading a lawn to insult people and egg houses...

You sound like you feel they deserve this just because they had a family member in the military. If you want to hate, hate Bush, not the soldiers. They sign up and sometimes they save lives and sometimes they take lives. If it were you a soldier was carrying to safety from a hostile zone, saving your life, you might be a little less judgemental.
Heikoku
04-03-2006, 19:49
You sound like you feel they deserve this just because they had a family member in the military. If you want to hate, hate Bush, not the soldiers. They sign up and sometimes they save lives and sometimes they take lives. If it were you a soldier was carrying to safety from a hostile zone, saving your life, you might be a little less judgemental.

Read the very beginning of my sentence. And if a soldier carried me out of a war zone from a war that HIS SIDE started, I'd laugh at the irony of the situation and file a complaint for their government to pay me back for all my stuff that they destroyed. There would be no war if they didn't show up for it.
Peechland
04-03-2006, 19:54
Read the very beginning of my sentence. And if a soldier carried me out of a war zone from a war that HIS SIDE started, I'd laugh at the irony of the situation and file a complaint for their government to pay me back for all my stuff that they destroyed. There would be no war if they didn't show up for it.


You wouldnt laugh, youd be shitting your pants as each bullet whizzed by your head. You wouldnt care if it was a soldier or the tooth fairy, as long as you got out alive, youd be grateful.
The Half-Hidden
04-03-2006, 20:04
COMMENTARY: This is where it always leads. This is where it lead during the "protests" during the Vietnam war. Neither I nor thousands of other veterans will tolerate this. If you know any "protestors," you can do them a great favor by telling them in no uncertain terms that this sort of behavior could easily result in a considerably shortened life-span.

I'm sure that about 99.7% of anti-war activists are as disgusted by this as you are.
Achtung 45
04-03-2006, 20:21
I'm sure that about 99.7% of anti-war activists are as disgusted by this as you are.
Yeah, I know I am. But the solution is not to kill them as Eutrusca so delicately advocates. And who says Iraq isn't becoming like Vietnam? This is just another sick example.
Heikoku
04-03-2006, 20:21
I'm sure that about 99.7% of anti-war activists are as disgusted by this as you are.

Yeah, but he doesn't care. Straw-manning caused by (supposed) trauma, you know. I'm sure he'd be just as "but I didn't do this" if confronted by someone from My Lai...
Heikoku
04-03-2006, 20:23
You wouldnt laugh, youd be shitting your pants as each bullet whizzed by your head. You wouldnt care if it was a soldier or the tooth fairy, as long as you got out alive, youd be grateful.

I'm not sure I'd be thankful for someone saving me from something they caused...
Peechland
04-03-2006, 20:30
I'm not sure I'd be thankful for someone saving me from something they caused...


So a bank robber and his bandits come in to rob a bank while youre in line to cash your check. Things go wrong and bullets start flying. Are you saying youd be mad if one of the bank robbers pulled you down to the ground and shielded you from the bullet? I mean, they started it.
Heikoku
04-03-2006, 20:36
So a bank robber and his bandits come in to rob a bank while youre in line to cash your check. Things go wrong and bullets start flying. Are you saying youd be mad if one of the bank robbers pulled you down to the ground and shielded you from the bullet? I mean, they started it.

I'd be mad at him for staging the bank robbery that created the need for him to save me in the first place. Then I'd get a good look at his face and describe him to the police to get a nice reward. It'd teach them not to rob banks.
Peechland
04-03-2006, 20:38
I'd be mad at him for staging the bank robbery that created the need for him to save me in the first place. Then I'd get a good look at his face and describe him to the police to get a nice reward. It'd teach them not to rob banks.

Thats not what I asked. I asked would you be happy that someone saved you from a bullet that could have ended your life in 2 seconds flat....despite who they were.
Heikoku
04-03-2006, 20:40
Thats not what I asked. I asked would you be happy that someone saved you from a bullet that could have ended your life in 2 seconds flat....despite who they were.

I'd be HAPPY, yes. Wether or not I'd be THANKFUL TOWARDS THEM would depend on what they did to cause the bullet.
Peechland
04-03-2006, 20:42
I'd be HAPPY, yes. Wether or not I'd be THANKFUL TOWARDS THEM would depend on what they did to cause the bullet.

Thats all I was looking for. I'll leave you be now.
Dakini
04-03-2006, 20:43
I'm going to guess that it's not the anti-war protestors doing that one. I'm guessing it's the god hates fags people who did that. Remember, the ones who are protesting the funerals of soliders too?
Celtlund
04-03-2006, 20:50
Oh, I believe this sort of thing happened to Vietnam veterans as well - I read up a little on the subject a while ago.

I lived it. We were also called "baby killers" and were spit on. No American soldier, sailor, marine, or airman deserves that king of treatment. No family deserves the treatment that family is getting.

Perhaps what we need to do is get a group, a large group of vets to go to Kansas and raise hell in front of that church when they are having services. Maybe those very patriotic bikers will join us and rev those engines up to the maximum. I have my Culpepper flag and am ready to go as soon as I get this cast off my leg Monday.
Celtlund
04-03-2006, 20:53
I think Eutrusca had his wires crossed in Vietnam, so let's just ignore all of his posts that deal with "logical" conclusions.

Eut isn't not the only one, I'm in that group to and damn proud of it.
Celtlund
04-03-2006, 20:59
*shrug* No reason to get all riled up. After all, it's only eggs.

Can't get all riled up over "just a cartoon", but ...




Someone should get a beat down over eggs?

Hrmmm.

Publishing a cartoon, no matter how offensive or insensitive it may be, in a newspaper is freedom of the press and freedom of speech. Throwing eggs on someone’s house is vandalism. One hell of a big difference.
Native Quiggles II
04-03-2006, 20:59
I don't mind the egging so much - on the grounds that their son was murdering Iraqis; but, the "I'm glad that your son is dead" phone call was crossing the line.
Achtung 45
04-03-2006, 21:00
I lived it. We were also called "baby killers" and were spit on. No American soldier, sailor, marine, or airman deserves that king of treatment. No family deserves the treatment that family is getting.

Perhaps what we need to do is get a group, a large group of vets to go to Kansas and raise hell in front of that church when they are having services. Maybe those very patriotic bikers will join us and rev those engines up to the maximum. I have my Culpepper flag and am ready to go as soon as I get this cast off my leg Monday.
You know what, some people hate communism. Some people hate communism and communists. Some people hate the Bush Administration, and some people hate all Republicans because of the Bush Administration. Some people hate homosexuality, and some people hate homosexuals. Some people hate the military, and some people hate military personnel. However screwed up it is, that's how it'll be. There will always be those extremes.
Celtlund
04-03-2006, 21:01
Well, since we pulled out the sophistry gun, lemme ask: wouldn't that family rather be cleaning egg off their house than burying their son? SNIP

This family must now do both. :(
Celtlund
04-03-2006, 21:03
I see. But weren't you against embassy burnings and whatnot?

Myself, I say ignore it. Be the better person. If someone egged my house for that reason, I'd shrug and say, "Well ... that's what they died to protect."

Not like anyone got hurt.

They died to protect freedom of speech, not the freedom to vandalize a person's property.
Celtlund
04-03-2006, 21:08
Also, drawing a cartoon intentionally to incite a riot is not protected free speech either.

First, there is no evidence those cartoons were drawn for that purpose. In fact when those cartoons were published there was no outcry in the country they were published in. The outcry came several months later after a few people raised the issue at a religous conference in another country. So, who had the agenda? :(
Cannot think of a name
04-03-2006, 21:11
No. They just mentioned Phelps because he and his idiot church are in the news. Pure hypothesizing on the part of the reporter. Possibly wishful thinking as well.
You know why they did that? Because they are the ones currently engaging in that tactic, it is a current and more likely connection than the one from forty years ago. Sorry Bob, it's the Westboro Babtists, not the peace movement. Nice attempt conflate the two, I'll try and remember that when seperating christians from the Westboro Bunch....
Celtlund
04-03-2006, 21:13
Just because someone passed their MEPS and spent 8 weeks standing at attention and polishing shoes doesn't mean they should be placed on a pedestal.

For that no. For putting their life on the line so that people can be free, yes. You can't build a pedestal tall enough for that.
Achtung 45
04-03-2006, 21:16
For that no. For putting their life on the line so that people can be free, yes. You can't build a pedestal tall enough for that.
I agree completely with that...as long as you take out "so that people can be free." The righteousness of the war should have no justification as to how soldiers of the war should be treated.
Celtlund
04-03-2006, 21:16
As I said. Defacement of property, vandalism, and other similar crimes are placed in dollar value. Two minutes with a garden hose takes care of some eggs. No value loss, no crime.

WRONG! Maybe in your eyes, but not in the eye of the law. Vandalism is a crime and value of loss has nothing to do with it.
The Half-Hidden
04-03-2006, 21:19
They died to protect freedom of speech, not the freedom to vandalize a person's property.
Yeah, I wonder where Keruvalia got the idea that people have a legal right to vandalise stuff that isn't theirs?
Celtlund
04-03-2006, 21:34
You know why they did that? Because they are the ones currently engaging in that tactic, it is a current and more likely connection than the one from forty years ago. Sorry Bob, it's the Westboro Babtists, not the peace movement. Nice attempt conflate the two, I'll try and remember that when seperating christians from the Westboro Bunch....

Are you trying to tell me Westboro Baptists are not a part of the "peace movement"?
Cannot think of a name
04-03-2006, 21:42
Are you trying to tell me Westboro Baptists are not a part of the "peace movement"?
Are you trying to tell me they don't represent chritians?
Refused Party Program
04-03-2006, 21:53
Are you trying to tell me they don't represent chritians?

Zing.
Celtlund
04-03-2006, 22:15
Are you trying to tell me they don't represent chritians?

No.
CanuckHeaven
05-03-2006, 03:04
COMMENTARY: This is where it always leads. This is where it lead during the "protests" during the Vietnam war. Neither I nor thousands of other veterans will tolerate this. If you know any "protestors," you can do them a great favor by telling them in no uncertain terms that this sort of behavior could easily result in a considerably shortened life-span.
You are not going to tolerate this kind of action? What are YOU going to do about it? The other day, you were going on about "freedom of speech", and about "sensitivities" in regards to some Muslim cartoons, and about the Muslims over reacting. Here you are suggesting bodily harm up to and including "a considerably shortened life-span" because some protestors targeted a dead soldier's house and an inappropriate phone call.

It would appear that as much as you want to be the defender of "freedom of speech" and "freedom of expression", you keep tripping over your "sensitivities"?

I think your "sensitivity" is showing right alongside your hypocrisy.
CanuckHeaven
05-03-2006, 08:00
They died to protect freedom of speech, not the freedom to vandalize a person's property.
A very interesting quote:

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
- 19th-century Danish Christian philosopher Soren Kierkegaard

An even more interesting story that pulls no punches, and dispels the myths that abound in these threads!!

The misplaced defense of free speech (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HB07Ak03.html)

With all due respect, I don't see how soldiers dying in Iraq are doing so to "protect freedom of speech", however, I do see how they (the soldiers) have the "freedom" to vandalize Iraqi property, and to execute those that stand in the way of their pursuits.

Here in this thread, the OP talks about the egging of a dead soldiers house as the beginning of the "hate crime". Perhaps we all need to think about that as soldiers in Iraq break down doors and we all need to think about cities such as Fallujah as they are reduced to rubble.
Czar Natovski Romanov
05-03-2006, 08:18
A very interesting quote:

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
- 19th-century Danish Christian philosopher Soren Kierkegaard

An even more interesting story that pulls no punches, and dispels the myths that abound in these threads!!

The misplaced defense of free speech (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HB07Ak03.html)

With all due respect, I don't see how soldiers dying in Iraq are doing so to "protect freedom of speech", however, I do see how they (the soldiers) have the "freedom" to vandalize Iraqi property, and to execute those that stand in the way of their pursuits.

Here in this thread, the OP talks about the egging of a dead soldiers house as the beginning of the "hate crime". Perhaps we all need to think about that as soldiers in Iraq break down doors and cities such as Fallujah are reduced to rubble.

What I dont understand is why people have so much compasion for people in other nations... THEY DONT MATTER!!! They dont have the same rights as Americans and dont deserve to be protected by us or our millitary or our constitution. I think we should simply continue to subjugate them and profit from thier existence as we always have, its worked well so far.
RetroLuddite Saboteurs
05-03-2006, 08:27
what kind of real protesters egg people's houses in kinbuggery indiana, this isn't about antiwar protests, its either about teenage delinquents or crazies... who were probably responsible for the same urban legend spawning stupidity during the vietnam war.
CanuckHeaven
05-03-2006, 08:27
What I dont understand is why people have so much compasion for people in other nations... THEY DONT MATTER!!! They dont have the same rights as Americans and dont deserve to be protected by us or our millitary or our constitution. I think we should simply continue to subjugate them and profit from thier existence as we always have, its worked well so far.
Well, I guess nothing is stopping you from signing up and going over there to "subjugate them", or are you going to leave the dirty work for others?
Hard work and freedom
05-03-2006, 08:51
I'd be mad at him for staging the bank robbery that created the need for him to save me in the first place. Then I'd get a good look at his face and describe him to the police to get a nice reward. It'd teach them not to rob banks.


Woww, man of the day
Heikoku
05-03-2006, 13:44
What I dont understand is why people have so much compasion for people in other nations... THEY DONT MATTER!!! They dont have the same rights as Americans and dont deserve to be protected by us or our millitary or our constitution. I think we should simply continue to subjugate them and profit from thier existence as we always have, its worked well so far.

Come and get me, in case you don't value your life and limbs. You're no better than anyone else, and, if you ever tried to attack random foreigners, you'd be dead before leaving your town, punk.
BackwoodsSquatches
05-03-2006, 13:48
Come and get me, in case you don't value your life and limbs. You're no better than anyone else, and, if you ever tried to attack random foreigners, you'd be dead before leaving your town, punk.


You really shouldnt feed the trolls.
It only encourages them to come back.
Heikoku
05-03-2006, 13:53
You really shouldnt feed the trolls.
It only encourages them to come back.

I am, as he put it, a foreigner, and I had two bad days lately, which make me want to humiliate him... I know one shouldn't feed trolls, but I'm in a bad mood, I could use some sadism...
BackwoodsSquatches
05-03-2006, 13:55
I am, as he put it, a foreigner, and I had two bad days lately, which make me want to humiliate him... I know one shouldn't feed trolls, but I'm in a bad mood, I could use some sadism...


In that case, I say offer a homeless man a dollar for everytime he lets you kick him.


Hmm....no...maybe thats a bad idea.
Heikoku
05-03-2006, 13:57
In that case, I say offer a homeless man a dollar for everytime he lets you kick him.


Hmm....no...maybe thats a bad idea.

Meh. My sadism is oral, not physical. And, I'm broke, anyways...
-Somewhere-
05-03-2006, 14:05
What they need is veterans associations to secretly stand guard at the house. If somebody eggs the house, chase after them and when they're caught you put them in hospital. Problem sovled.
Heikoku
05-03-2006, 14:22
What they need is veterans associations to secretly stand guard at the house. If somebody eggs the house, chase after them and when they're caught you put them in hospital. Problem sovled.

I see. That nice idea fails to account for the fact that they, too, can get organized and turn the thing into a gang war. Here was I thinking the Military supported people's right for a trial, due process and so on. Silly me.
Fass
05-03-2006, 14:36
Here was I thinking the Military supported people's right for a trial, due process and so on. Silly me.

No they don't. Eutrusca proves that with this thread. And look at Gitmo and Abu Graib - where are the due process and the fair trials there? The US military couldn't give a rat's ass about freedom, rule of law and democratic principles.
Heikoku
05-03-2006, 14:53
No they don't. Eutrusca proves that with this thread. And look at Gitmo and Abu Graib - where are the due process and the fair trials there? The US military couldn't give a rat's ass about freedom, rule of law and democratic principles.

Hey! Grand Theft Point! You're driving MY point home!

(Jk, here are some cookies) ;)
-Somewhere-
05-03-2006, 14:56
I see. That nice idea fails to account for the fact that they, too, can get organized and turn the thing into a gang war.
Which is why there needs to be sympathetic people in organisations like the government and police. People who are willing to overlook the actions of the veterans associations while crushing the anti-military degenerates.
Vittos Ordination2
05-03-2006, 14:56
Wheres the hatecrime?

Vandalism is a crime, and if we know the entire story, we can assume it was carried out only because the person was a soldier.

Eutrusca is stretching the definition, but I see where he was coming from.
Fass
05-03-2006, 14:57
Which is why there needs to be sympathetic people in organisations like the government and police. People who are willing to overlook the actions of the veterans associations while crushing the anti-military degenerates.

Ah, fascism.
The Half-Hidden
05-03-2006, 15:26
Isn't a hate crime any crime which is committed with hate as the motivating factor?
Refused Party Program
05-03-2006, 15:40
Isn't a hate crime any crime which is committed with hate as the motivating factor?

Not in the legal sense. I could steal your camera for no other reason than hate (assuming that I did not covet the camera) but the crime would be theft.
CanuckHeaven
05-03-2006, 15:42
Isn't a hate crime any crime which is committed with hate as the motivating factor?
We have hate propaganda laws in Canada and when that was pointed out to Eutrusca in another thread, his reply was "sad". However, that was in a topic about Danish cartoons, but it appears that if it is the US military as the target, then the perpetrators should expect that "this sort of behavior could easily result in a considerably shortened life-span."

How melodramatic can one be?
Bobs Own Pipe
05-03-2006, 16:09
Eutrusca is stretching the definition, but I see where he was coming from.
Sorry, but the man is so far out in left field, I'd need proper binoculars to see where he's coming from.
Bobs Own Pipe
05-03-2006, 16:23
We have hate propaganda laws in Canada and when that was pointed out to Eutrusca in another thread, his reply was "sad". However, that was in a topic about Danish cartoons, but it appears that if it is the US military as the target, then the perpetrators should expect that "this sort of behavior could easily result in a considerably shortened life-span."

How melodramatic can one be?
Melodramatic enough that his head might explode?
http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW02-15-06.jpg
Refused Party Program
05-03-2006, 16:29
Melodramatic enough that his head might explode?
http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW02-15-06.jpg


I am a space-penguin and I find this cartoon offensive.
Fass
05-03-2006, 16:32
I am a space-penguin and I find this cartoon offensive.

I am offended by your mocking of the easily offended.
Bobs Own Pipe
05-03-2006, 16:37
I am offended by your mocking of the easily offended.
I am easily mocked by the offensiveness of insensitive space-penguins.
Fass
05-03-2006, 16:45
I am easily mocked by the offensiveness of insensitive space-penguins.

How dare you imply that space-penguins are insensitive? I'll have you know they were born that way!
Refused Party Program
05-03-2006, 16:51
How dare you imply that space-penguins are insensitive? I'll have you know they were born that way!

It's sad that in the year 2006 we still have to campaign for the rights of the insensitive. One day we shall be free!
Heikoku
05-03-2006, 16:57
I am easily mocked by the offensiveness of insensitive space-penguins.

I'm offended by you being easily mocked by the offensiveness of insensitive space-penguins.
Refused Party Program
05-03-2006, 16:58
I'm offended by you being easily mocked by the offensiveness of insensitive space-penguins.

I am offended by the length of this running gag.
Heikoku
05-03-2006, 17:01
I am offended by the length of this running gag.

Me too. It should be longer.
The Nazz
05-03-2006, 17:06
Me too. It should be longer.
I'm offended by your bias against short-running gags.
Heikoku
05-03-2006, 17:07
I'm offended by your bias against short-running gags.

I'm offended...

By something. I'll get back to you on that.
CanuckHeaven
05-03-2006, 17:11
I'm offended by your bias against short-running gags.
The title of this thread makes me want to gag.
Heikoku
05-03-2006, 17:14
The title of this thread makes me want to gag.

Thank you!

That's it, exactly! I'm offended by the title of this thread!

Thanks, Canuck!
Bobs Own Pipe
05-03-2006, 20:49
I find it offensive when OPs create a thorough bombshell of a thread, then bugger off when the heat is on.
The Nazz
05-03-2006, 20:54
I find it offensive when OPs create a thorough bombshell of a thread, then bugger off when the heat is on.
This is just par for the course, though, considering the OP'er.
Refused Party Program
05-03-2006, 20:56
I find it offensive when OPs create a thorough bombshell of a thread, then bugger off when the heat is on.

I find the word "bombshell" offensive. My mother exploded to death after eating shellfish.
Bobs Own Pipe
05-03-2006, 20:59
This is just par for the course, though, considering the OP'er.
Duly noted. This is just par for the course, though, considering the ludicrous amount of leeway & deference offered the OP on these forums, due apparently to his choice of vocation and advanced age.
Bobs Own Pipe
05-03-2006, 21:00
I find the word "bombshell" offensive. My mother exploded to death after eating shellfish.

*slaps your momma's corpse*
Refused Party Program
05-03-2006, 21:02
*slaps your momma's corpse*

Now that's just good-natured fun.
Ytrewqstan
05-03-2006, 21:04
I am offended by your ugly faces! Mwuhahahahaha
Bobs Own Pipe
05-03-2006, 21:09
I know, I know... I run the risk of seeming repetitive, and of overplaying the 'inserted Tom Tomorrow card'... Hell, this doesn't even have anything to do with the thread - well, not directly, anyway - but it's just so much damn fun (and it'd kill me to have to wait for a truly opportune moment to use it), so...

http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW03-01-06.jpg

Wow! Now I'm beginning to understand the Bizarro Conservative world that exists alongside our own...
Fass
05-03-2006, 21:10
Duly noted. This is just par for the course, though, considering the ludicrous amount of leeway & deference offered the OP on these forums, due apparently to his choice of vocation and advanced age.

Once you get to know Eut in more direct venues, you start to pay less attention to his persona here.
Bobs Own Pipe
05-03-2006, 21:11
Once you get to know Eut in more direct venues, you start to pay less attention to his persona here.
What, did he show up at your place of work?
Fass
05-03-2006, 21:17
What, did he show up at your place of work?

I hope not, as I don't wish illness upon him. We've talked over Skype, and it's always different when you can talk talk with someone. The two of us used to be down each other's throats before that, our animosity spanning threads, but after our chats, it got hard to dehumanise enough to be able to keep up a disliking.
Bobs Own Pipe
05-03-2006, 21:40
Well, sorry Fass, but I'm not dissuaded by your Skype rapprochement with old Truss.
Fass
06-03-2006, 00:56
Well, sorry Fass, but I'm not dissuaded by your Skype rapprochement with old Truss.

You needn't be. I just know what people show here is not what people are.