NationStates Jolt Archive

Firstly, let me make one thing clear: Although I know that some define Patriotism differently from Nationalism, in the overwhelming number of those people, in practice they have been the same.

And now to the argument: It seems to me to work in a similar way. Both are irrational convictions of something that cannot be objectively proven (that your nation is "better" than another). Neither tolerates dissent very well. Both use symbols to give people something to identify with. And usually, both patriots and religious people have only the interest of their friends, family and other fellow humans at heart.

No, patriotism and nationalism are not generally "belief in and reverence for a supreme being or beings regarded as creator and governor of the universe, a system grounded in such belief" or adherance to a "spiritual leader."

No, patriotism and nationalism are not generally "belief in and reverence for a supreme being or beings regarded as creator and governor of the universe, a system grounded in such belief" or adherance to a "spiritual leader."

Nationalists do rever their country as surpreme, and that their country is the reason they are alive.

Spiritual leader = whoever was in control of the country aka top politician.

Apples and oranges are also similar because they are fruits, round, high in vitamin C, and taste good.

Patriotism is the opinion that your nation is better, or fact that it does better in certain areas (GDP per person, for example, or low crime rate) than other nations. Patriotism is based on observable factors, while religion is based on, well, nothing. They do have some similarities, though.

Nationalism is a religion.

Patriotism is not.

Insofar in that it can be blindly dogmatic and move man to do inconceivable things "in name of his/her country," yes it is. A person may have severe reluctance in murdering someone, yet tell them it's for their nation and they might be the first to open fire.

No, patriotism and nationalism are not generally "belief in and reverence for a supreme being or beings regarded as creator and governor of the universe, a system grounded in such belief" or adherance to a "spiritual leader."
Well, obviously if you define it that strictly, no, it isn't a religion.

But couldn't one rewrite patriotism as "belief in and reverance for a supreme object, regarded as standing for a superior set of beliefs/ethnic groups, a system grounded in such belief"?

My point is that they have a very similar effect on the people who believe in it, and as a result, on the world.

Nationalism is a religion.

Patriotism is not.
Well, let me point this out. If it makes you a patriot to believe that your country is better because of a low crime rate etc, you still have the option of moving to a country where it is even lower. Assuming that most patriots do not want that, "patriotism" and "nationalism" serve the same purpose in all cases concerned.
Nationalism, in fact, arose solely as a justifing for creating a homeland were one was not available, and according to an ethnical crtierion. Just ask Mr. Herder. The practice of it was the rejection of old identities, and the maintainence of new ones.

Well, obviously if you define it that strictly, no, it isn't a religion.
Well, since that is the definition . . . .
And under your wider definition (one that I prefer to use in my personal writings, simply as an easy way to categorize the "bad guys"), socialism and communism are also religions.

And under your wider definition (one that I prefer to use in my personal writings, simply as an easy way to categorize the "bad guys"), socialism and communism are also religions.
That depends on how you see it. There are some who just adhere tho their principles out of gut-feeling. For those, yes, it is like a religion.

But for some, socialism and communism are scientific, as they were originally devised. They are logical conclusions of an analytical thought process at the end of which stands the end of capitalism and its replacement with socialism. So for those people, it's an intellectual thing, open to discussion, and potentially open to be refuted. I don't think you can say the same thing of patriots.

But for some, socialism and communism are scientific, as they were originally devised. They are logical conclusions of an analytical thought process at the end of which stands the end of capitalism and its replacement with socialism. So for those people, it's an intellectual thing, open to discussion, and potentially open to be refuted. I don't think you can say the same thing of patriots.
As well as Capitalism.

As well as Capitalism.
Obviously. It's the same with any intellectual pursuit.

But let's get back on topic, shall we?

Is this (http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2004/11/03/bushsupporters5.jpg) the same, or very similar to this (http://i.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/columbia/praying.jpg).

Obviously. It's the same with any intellectual pursuit.

But let's get back on topic, shall we?

Is this (http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2004/11/03/bushsupporters5.jpg) the same, or very similar to this (http://i.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/columbia/praying.jpg).
One and the same, save that they adhere to different Dogmas and different powers.

But for some, socialism and communism are scientific, as they were originally devised. They are logical conclusions of an analytical thought process at the end of which stands the end of capitalism and its replacement with socialism. So for those people, it's an intellectual thing, open to discussion, and potentially open to be refuted. I don't think you can say the same thing of patriots.
For a number of people, their belief in dieties is the result of an intellectual search that came up with an answer just as scientific as Communism, and they're even more likely to realize their error than a Communist.

Nationalism is a religion.

Patriotism is not.

Patriotism is the blind following of an ideal.

Nationalism is when that ideal is your mother country.

They're both inherently "religious".

No, as neither Patriotism nor Nationalism is tax exempt.



BTW: Any religion that isn't 2000 years old is a cult!! :D

Well, obviously if you define it that strictly, no, it isn't a religion.

But couldn't one rewrite patriotism as "belief in and reverance for a supreme object, regarded as standing for a superior set of beliefs/ethnic groups, a system grounded in such belief"?

My point is that they have a very similar effect on the people who believe in it, and as a result, on the world.

No because that is an incorrect definition of Patriotism as someone who is patriotic doesnt have to believe that their country is infallible, all-powerful and is not a supernatural being.
Patriotism=To show love, support, and sacrifice for one's country

Your definition would only fit into the definition of religion if a religion doesnt require some spiritual or supernatural aspect in order to be actually considered a religion.

Nationalism is more like some religions
Nationalism is defined as loyalty and devotion to a nation or ethnic group that places emphasis on promoting the interests, cultural and social values, or religion of one group above all others. A true nationalist has internalized these beliefs.Yet even a nationalism isn't a real religion as it only relates to the devotion to a man-made construct such a government or a nation.

Nationalism is more like some religions
Nationalism is defined as loyalty and devotion to a nation or ethnic group that places emphasis on promoting the interests, cultural and social values, or religion of one group above all others. A true nationalist has internalized these beliefs.Yet even a nationalism isn't a real religion as it only relates to the devotion to a man-made construct such a government or a nation.
Who is to say religion, or verily the power it glorifies, isn't a man-made construct itself?

No, as neither Patriotism nor Nationalism is tax exempt.



BTW: Any religion that isn't 2000 years old is a cult!! :D
I would put it closer to 200 years. Just enough to include Islam and Christianity, while excluding Scientology and Mormonism.

It could be classified as one. Otto von Bismarck made Catholics put the State above Church.

Who is to say religion, or verily the power it glorifies, isn't a man-made construct itself?
Because the people who actually believe in their faith don't believe that their Gods are man-made(even if you may believe the concept to be), while even nationalists acknowledge that the country they are devoted to didn't magically appear from thin air. Rather nationalists celebrate their nation as an achievment that their own people created.

Because the people who actually believe in their faith don't believe that their Gods are man-made(even if you may believe the concept to be), while even nationalists acknowledge that the country they are devoted to didn't magically appear from thin air. Rather nationalists celebrate their nation as an achievment that their own people created.
Even if it is a nation under God?

It could be classified as one. Otto von Bismarck made Catholics put the State above Church.

Just because someone can be nationalist and religous doesnt mean the two are the same.

Even if it is a nation under God?
Keyword is under. Not Nation Over God or the Nation is a God.

I would put it closer to 200 years. Just enough to include Islam and Christianity, while excluding Scientology and Mormonism.

Nah. I gotta be more than 200 years. I simply can't respect any religion that isn't older than firearms. Certainly at least older than Brazil.

I'll maintain the 2000 year metric. :D

Firstly, let me make one thing clear: Although I know that some define Patriotism differently from Nationalism, in the overwhelming number of those people, in practice they have been the same.

And now to the argument: It seems to me to work in a similar way. Both are irrational convictions of something that cannot be objectively proven (that your nation is "better" than another). Neither tolerates dissent very well. Both use symbols to give people something to identify with. And usually, both patriots and religious people have only the interest of their friends, family and other fellow humans at heart.
No. It's not.

Nah. I gotta be more than 200 years. I simply can't respect any religion that isn't older than firearms. Certainly at least older than Brazil.

I'll maintain the 2000 year metric. :D

Then Christianity and Islam must be two gigantic cults. :eek:

Then Christianity and Islam must be two gigantic cults. :eek:
By those standards Xtianity passed the requirements a few years ago. Where Islam still has a little over 500 years to go.

Nationalism might be a passionate philosophy, but it is far from religion.

No god/mysitcal/spiritual involved => no religion.

Nationalism might be a passionate philosophy, but it is far from religion.

No god/mysitcal/spiritual involved => no religion.
The concept of Nation above man and all the entailing romantic notions of nationhood are not mystical?

By those standards Xtianity passed the requirements a few years ago. Where Islam still has a little over 500 years to go.
Not necessarily as the death of Christ isn't considered the creation of Christianity. It's followers were probably still very much a part of Judaism.