NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4765058.stm

Video shows Bush Katrina warning

Video has been obtained by a US news agency showing President George W Bush being briefed by officials on the eve of the Hurricane Katrina disaster.
The confidential video obtained by the Associated Press shows very strong warnings being given to Mr Bush about the potential strength of the storm.
It appears to contradict subsequent suggestions by the Bush administration that the threat had been unclear.
Critics say more could have been done sooner to evacuate the city.
Speaking by video link from a room in his Texan holiday ranch on 28 August last year, Mr Bush is shown telling officials: "We are fully prepared."
He does not ask any questions as the situation is outlined to him.
Along with the video, AP obtained transcripts of seven days of briefings relating to Katrina.

Clear warning
The footage does the president no favours, the BBC's Justin Webb reports from Washington.
It shows plainly worried officials telling Mr Bush very clearly before the storm hit that it could breach New Orleans' flood barriers.
In the past, the president has said nobody anticipated a breach but the video shows Michael Brown, the top emergency response official who has since resigned, saying the storm would be "a bad one, a big one".
"We're going to need everything that we can possibly muster, not only in this state and in the region, but the nation, to respond to this event," Mr Brown says.
He also gives a strong, clear warning that evacuees in the Superdome in New Orleans could not be given proper assistance.

'Very, very grave'
Another official, Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center, tells the final briefing that storm models predict minimal flooding inside New Orleans during the hurricane.
But he adds that the possibility of anticlockwise winds and storm surges could cause the levees at Lake Pontchartrain to be overrun afterwards is "obviously a very, very grave concern".
His concern was borne out by events when levees collapsed, letting in the floodwater disastrously.
The president, however, said four days after the storm: "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees."
Mr Bush later accepted he shared some of the responsibility for the flawed response to Katrina and the White House talked of the "fog of war" rendering decision-making difficult.
Michael Brown told AP this week that he did not "buy the 'fog of war' defence".
"It was a fog of bureaucracy," he said.
So, once again, Bush manages to weasel his way out by having a subordinate take the blame. Certainly appears that way. Brown was made a scapegoat.
Let's just wait for the beafening silence on US media's part over this. No doubt the first excuse to be trotted out will be 'That was 4 months ago! It's old news. Time to move on'.

so you're telling us that bush is even more of an asshat than we thought? i should've realised :p

Bush is a very fool.

Of course he fucking knew. It was on the weather about a week before it happened. It's the old question of how he managed to spot weapons of mass destruction halfway round the world where there weren't any, but failed to spot weather of mass destruction when it was forecast, broadcast and happening at home.

Errr... Yes. Anyone who had any access to any news at all knew. Now don't get me wrong, I think all government levels dropped the ball on this. But what exactly is he supposed to do the eve before the storm hits?

As for the rest of it, lying is nothing new.:p

Errr... Yes. Anyone who had any access to any news at all knew. Now don't get me wrong, I think all government levels dropped the ball on this. But what exactly is he supposed to do the eve before the storm hits?

Well, he could have mobilized the national guard on the eve of the storm and issue an alert rather than oh, I don't know, play on a banjo waiting to be briefed?

You win with National Guard. But what kind of alert? Evacuation was already "mandatory". I'm not sure what else there is after that...

You win with National Guard. But what kind of alert? Evacuation was already "mandatory". I'm not sure what else there is after that...
being forcibly removed? that normally does the job :D

I think he was having a delusion God would suddenly smite Hurrican Katrina and she would just dissipate because he was GW Shrub.

While Bush bashing is good fun... why not ask Mayor Nagin why it is that 40 school buses that could have be used to evac people with were left sitting idle before the storm and then trashed by the floods.... or perhaps the Army corps of engineers on why the concrete canal walls only went 6 feet down, instead of all the way past the bottom of the canal. or why the Louisiana state government blocked aid efforts

The whole thing was 1 big f*** up from beginning to end

I was in New Orleans in 2004 for hurricane Ivan and we knew THEN what could happen if it hit the city.........

Wow. The 2 Minutes Hate started early today.

so you're telling us that bush is even more of an asshat than we thought? i should've realised :p
Still, the degree to which he exceeded the bleakness of my pessimism is an achivement in it's own right. The scale, quantity, and *variety* of his collosal failures are incredible. Awesome even. If anyone had predicted such a string of unmittigated failures before hand I would have laughed at them. As I might with any ludicrious, perhaps even impossible, musing thrown my way. There have been few men with a talent for being so bitterly, brutally wrong, who've yet managed to extort others in to following their course of action. And even with all of this, he still enjoys considerable support. Amazing.

Well, he could have mobilized the national guard on the eve of the storm and issue an alert rather than oh, I don't know, play on a banjo waiting to be briefed?
Wrong. The National Gaurd is the responsibility of the states. He could have mobilized them by going over the Governers heads, but then everyone would have bitched about how he was abusing his power.

There are just some people here who will never give Bush a break, and jump at any chance to bash him. Incidentally, that's why he won the election. You loonies made the good Lefties look bad.

Thanks, by the way! ;)

While Bush bashing is good fun...

Not bashing. This is a valid critique. He was told beforehand and sat on his ass as if it didn't matter. Throwing out other people's failure in an attempt to somehow compensate for the failure of Bush is nothing more than just plain pathetic and a distraction.


The whole thing was 1 big f*** up from beginning to end


And now we know that it was an even bigger one thanks to Bush. The kind of person who would act only after the fact when he knows about it beforehand is not someone I would look for for foresight and planning. And he's in a position of responsibility that makes that a mandatory requirement if you want to guide your nation somewhere other than a rubbish heap.

Forgive me if my understanding of American politics means I'm missing something obvious, but if Bush has repeatedly said "No one knew the levies would break," "we couldn't predict the scale of the disaster" etc, and now there is video evidence to prove the exact opposite, are these not grounds for impeachment?

If Clinton can be impeached over the definition of sex, why not Bush over a disaster that killed hundreds?

Wrong. The National Gaurd is the responsibility of the states. He could have mobilized them by going over the Governers heads, but then everyone would have bitched about how he was abusing his power.
Hey, our of curiosity, where is the National Guard anyway. I've looked all around the United States, and I've found a few, but for the most part there seems not to be as many as there was a while ago. Where do you suppose they got off too?

Wrong. The National Gaurd is the responsibility of the states. He could have mobilized them by going over the Governers heads, but then everyone would have bitched about how he was abusing his power.

There are just some people here who will never give Bush a break, and jump at any chance to bash him. Incidentally, that's why he won the election. You loonies made the good Lefties look bad.

Thanks, by the way! ;)

Uh huh. So he gets away with just sitting on his ass eh? I suppose that if South Dakota disappeared under a mushroom cloud and Bush knew it would happen 5 months before it did and did nothing, you'd excuse him for that too.

Incidently, why would the national guard be a state governor thing if I don't know, the national guard is actually in a foreign nation? Was that on orders of the state governor? I didn't know state governors could move armed forces into other nations.

And no. He won the election because he appealed to the religious loonies, hawks and "OMG Brownies! Kill em all" cowards. Not to mention the corporate elite.

Why blame Bush?

I blame the people who voted for him the second time around.

Wrong. The National Gaurd is the responsibility of the states. He could have mobilized them by going over the Governers heads, but then everyone would have bitched about how he was abusing his power.

So, he didn't go over their heads because he didn't want people to bitch about how he abused his power? So, instead, he sat on his ass and did nothing so people could bitch about how he didn't do anything to help? Are you saying that Bush puts his own political welfare above the lives of his fellow Americans? Heavens no!

If you turned on the weather channel or even any local news channel you knew about the hurricane coming. Of course he knew, the video is the briefing he had, which he has before every major natural disaster is about to hit. It's nothing new. I still want to know why the mayor and the state officials ignored their SOP evacuation plans and expected the federal gov't to suddenly know everything that was going wrong. The federal gov't can't intervene unless a state asks or cannot fulfill its obligation to its people, hence why they eventually intervened. Let's put all the blame on Bush and absolve the people at the most visible level of all guilt and screw up. What a great idea. Sure FEMA messed up, sure the federal gov't messed up, they could have reacted about 24 hours quicker, that's about it.

Wrong. The National Gaurd is the responsibility of the states. He could have mobilized them by going over the Governers heads, but then everyone would have bitched about how he was abusing his power.

There are just some people here who will never give Bush a break, and jump at any chance to bash him. Incidentally, that's why he won the election. You loonies made the good Lefties look bad.

Thanks, by the way! ;)


I recall President Bush on television a day or even two days before the storm hit, urging people to prepare for an extremely devastating storm in some areas and to evacuate other areas. People forget this and act like it never happened.

An enforced evacuation for their own good? yeah-sure. Please-then the President would be accused of being heavy handed or whatever clever terms his detractors could think of.
People forget-his detractors did absolutely nothing but scramble to blame the President for their own failures. The leaders that live right there where the storm hit are the ones to blame.

I love how the rightys on this board twist this round to imply that Bush is accused of being responsible for every fuck-up, and since that's absurd therefore any and every example of his incompetence can thereby be ignored.
They've obviously been following FOX's pattern of damage control very closely.

Read it again.

The tape shows that Bush was told before Katrina hit that the levees would break. He was told that the Superdome wouldn't suffice. He was told that a nation-wide response was needed. And he said and did nothing. And then when it all went pear-shaped, he lied through his teeth about not knowing.

Eg.
August 28: National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield told Bush that he was worried Katrina might push water over the levees.
"I don't think anyone can tell you with confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not, but that's obviously a very, very great concern,"

Several days after the storm, Bush said, "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees,". Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, who was also part of the pre-Katrina video conference backed Bush up.

The transcript can be read here:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/02/fema.tapes/index.html
Here's part of it:
Bush, who participated in the FEMA briefing on August 28, assured other officials that everything was under control.

"I want to assure the folks at the state level that we are fully prepared to not only help you during the storm, but we will move in whatever resources and assets we have at our disposal after the storm to help you deal with the loss of property. And we pray for no loss of life, of course," he said.
Now one might make the supposition that when the President of the United States tells you that everything is well under control and not to worry, you probably will follow what he says.
You also have to wonder why he said those things when he had the Head of FEMA and the National Hurricane Center director telling him that serious problems were likely.

Forgive me if my understanding of American politics means I'm missing something obvious, but if Bush has repeatedly said "No one knew the levies would break," "we couldn't predict the scale of the disaster" etc, and now there is video evidence to prove the exact opposite, are these not grounds for impeachment?

If Clinton can be impeached over the definition of sex, why not Bush over a disaster that killed hundreds?
Well, if you're looking for grounds for impeachment, you've got a list half a mile long, dating back to the whole "lying us into war in Iraq" bit.

But you hit the nail on the head with the first part of your comment. The issue is that the Bush administration has spent the last six months playing the "no one could have known" card, and now there's proof positive that not only could they have known, but that they definitively did know, and that makes the shitty response after the hurricane that much more reprehensible. This takes Bush from incompetent to apathetic.

There were National Guard people in the area. Many were overseas, but a large group are always at home for just such an occasion.

Now one might make the supposition that when the President of the United States tells you that everything is well under control and not to worry, you probably will follow what he says.

The President was probably assuming the local leaders would do their jobs and request federal assistance in a timely fashion. I know, thats just plain silly.

It has nothing to do with how he would be percieved. He could not legally order troops in without the request. You think the wiretaps are bad? Now imagine him just deploying armed soldiers into American cities. Are comfortable with that?

Did the federal government fuck up? Yes. In the aftermath of the hurricane and in the several decades of planning before it. However, this particular discussion is rather moot when you realize that the local officials didn't ask for help.

Well, he could have mobilized the national guard on the eve of the storm and issue an alert rather than oh, I don't know, play on a banjo waiting to be briefed?

National Guard is controled by the state and not the federal government. Why didn't the Governor call them up?

Forgive me if my understanding of American politics means I'm missing something obvious, but if Bush has repeatedly said "No one knew the levies would break," "we couldn't predict the scale of the disaster" etc, and now there is video evidence to prove the exact opposite, are these not grounds for impeachment?

No it isn't grounds for impeachment.

If Clinton can be impeached over the definition of sex, why not Bush over a disaster that killed hundreds?

Because this here isn't an impeachable offense. Clinton lying under oath now is an impeachable offense.

Hey, our of curiosity, where is the National Guard anyway. I've looked all around the United States, and I've found a few, but for the most part there seems not to be as many as there was a while ago. Where do you suppose they got off too?

They're civilians!!!!

And for your information, less than HALF of any state guard forces were shipped off to Iraq just incase something like this happened.

Uh huh. So he gets away with just sitting on his ass eh? I suppose that if South Dakota disappeared under a mushroom cloud and Bush knew it would happen 5 months before it did and did nothing, you'd excuse him for that too.

*buzzer for wrong answer*

He all but ordered the evacuation of N.O.

Incidently, why would the national guard be a state governor thing if I don't know, the national guard is actually in a foreign nation?

Why is it that less than half of LA guard forces were in the state of LA?

Was that on orders of the state governor? I didn't know state governors could move armed forces into other nations.

THey can't. The federal government can though in a time of war. Which is what we are in now wether liberals want to believe it or not. WHy is it that most of LA guard forces were actually home?

And no. He won the election because he appealed to the religious loonies, hawks and "OMG Brownies! Kill em all" cowards. Not to mention the corporate elite.

Oh Bull crap here.

Why blame Bush?

I blame the people who voted for him the second time around.

:rolleyes:

So, he didn't go over their heads because he didn't want people to bitch about how he abused his power? So, instead, he sat on his ass and did nothing so people could bitch about how he didn't do anything to help? Are you saying that Bush puts his own political welfare above the lives of his fellow Americans? Heavens no!

Go back and learn the facts. He basically ordered the evac of New Orleans because Mayor Nagin didn't do so.

Go back and learn the facts. He basically ordered the evac of New Orleans because Mayor Nagin didn't do so.
You're the one who needs to go back and look at the goddamn facts Corny. Nagin ordered the evacuation, and what's more, New Orleans managed to do about an 80% evacuation, despite all the studies that said the best they could hope for was about a 50% evacuation. Furthermore, Nagin and Blanco both asked for help days before the fucking storm hit, and were assured that the federal government would be there after the storm passed. The tape shows that they were at least talking about it before the storm hit.

Now if you go back through the archives here, you'll see that no one was screaming for Mike Brown's head more than I was when this was going on, but now I'm starting to think his head wasn't so far up his ass as we were led to believe. He could have done better, but it looks like his bosses, Chertoff and Bush, were doing a lot fucking worse and left him to swing.

The President was probably assuming the local leaders would do their jobs and request federal assistance in a timely fashion. I know, thats just plain silly.

It has nothing to do with how he would be percieved. He could not legally order troops in without the request. You think the wiretaps are bad? Now imagine him just deploying armed soldiers into American cities. Are comfortable with that?
And what of his lying? You ok with that?

You're the one who needs to go back and look at the goddamn facts Corny. Nagin ordered the evacuation, and what's more, New Orleans managed to do about an 80% evacuation, despite all the studies that said the best they could hope for was about a 50% evacuation.

Then I guess the press was wrong in the regards that they have reported that Bush told Nagin to order the evacuation and it was then that Nagin ordered the evacation. What say you?

Furthermore, Nagin and Blanco both asked for help days before the fucking storm hit, and were assured that the federal government would be there after the storm passed. The tape shows that they were at least talking about it before the storm hit.

No they didn't. Sorry my friend but if they did ask for help before the storm hit, the government would've been in there alot sooner. Also, if they have asked for help, FEMA would've gone in after the storm hit however the Governor didn't give them permission TO ENTER until a few days later. They were ready to go in.

Also, if they have asked for help, the Red Cross would've been at the Superdome. Guess what? They were forbidden to go there by the Governor.

Now if you go back through the archives here, you'll see that no one was screaming for Mike Brown's head more than I was when this was going on, but now I'm starting to think his head wasn't so far up his ass as we were led to believe. He could have done better, but it looks like his bosses, Chertoff and Bush, were doing a lot fucking worse and left him to swing.

The state has more authority in this case. Not Bush or Chertoff.

The President was probably assuming the local leaders would do their jobs and request federal assistance in a timely fashion. I know, thats just plain silly.

It has nothing to do with how he would be percieved. He could not legally order troops in without the request. You think the wiretaps are bad? Now imagine him just deploying armed soldiers into American cities. Are comfortable with that?

Did the federal government fuck up? Yes. In the aftermath of the hurricane and in the several decades of planning before it. However, this particular discussion is rather moot when you realize that the local officials didn't ask for help.
Hey--you might want to something like actually knowing the facts (http://www.gov.state.la.us/index.cfm?md=newsroom&tmp=detail&catID=1&articleID=776&navID=3) before you go making an ass of yourself like that. That link is the declaration of the state of emergency from the state on August 26.

This one (http://www.gov.state.la.us/index.cfm?md=newsroom&tmp=detail&catID=1&articleID=778&navID=3) is the request to the federal fucking government.

BATON ROUGE-Today Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco forwarded a letter to President Bush requesting that he declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina. The full text of the letter follows:

August 27, 2005

The President The White House Washington, D. C.

Through: Regional Director FEMA Region VI 800 North Loop 288 Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. �� 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR � 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina. In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

So what was that about them not asking for help in time? Huh?

while on the topic of hurricanes... this reminds me of the counties in florida that ruined the 2000 election, http://vowe.net/archives/004989.html they just had it coming..

No they didn't. Sorry my friend but if they did ask for help before the storm hit, the government would've been in there alot sooner. Also, if they have asked for help, FEMA would've gone in after the storm hit however the Governor didn't give them permission TO ENTER until a few days later. They were ready to go in.
I direct you to post #34, Corny. Then I expect you to admit that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

I direct you to post #34, Corny. Then I expect you to admit that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Why did Governor prohibit the Red Cross from going to the Superdome? Why did she prevent FEMA from immediate access? Why didn't Nagin use those busses to evac those that couldn't leave?

Why did Governor prohibit the Red Cross from going to the Superdome? Why did she prevent FEMA from immediate access? Why didn't Nagin use those busses to evac those that couldn't leave?
Okay--FEMA was never prevented access, and if you can prove that, then I'd like to see you try it--with a reputable source. None of this Newsmax shit.

As to the Red Cross, they were prevented under advisement from authorities who wanted to get people out of the area, and they were afraid that the aid would cause them to try to stay.

As to the busses, well, there were two major logistical problems. One is that there weren't many busses to begin with, and that there were few drivers for them. The second had to do with putting them on the road without a destination, and without any ability to keep them fueled or the people on them fed and sanitary. Yeah, that should have been handled better by local authorities, but remember, we're talking about a couple of hundred busses at best, with room for what, 60 people on each at most? Not going to do a lot of evacuating on those.

No one is here saying that the locals were blameless. What I'm mad about is that Bush is again playing the "no one could have anticipated" game, when in fact they had anticipated and then fucked it up anyway. I don't expect you to get that nuance, Corny. In fact, I imagine this entire post will go whizzing over your head like a Bonds homer into the Bay.

1. Someone look up when Bush declared a state of emergency, if memory serves, it was at least 2 days BEFORE Kat.

2. All the levee predictions BEFORE were warning that the water would wash OVER the levee, not that the levees would actually collapse.

Bush took the apporpriate actions that any president would.
The process broke down though, blame him as the senior, buck stops here person, not for his personal actions.

Go back and learn the facts. He basically ordered the evac of New Orleans because Mayor Nagin didn't do so.

You are wrong.

(waits to see if Corny will admit being wrong.)

(doesn't hold breath.)

You are wrong.

Actually no I'm not.

Actually no I'm not.
Actually, you are (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/). Not that that's anything new.
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared a state of emergency Sunday and ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city. (Watch video of mayor's announcement)

"This is a threat that we've never faced before," Nagin said. "If we galvanize and gather around each other, I'm sure we will get through this."

He exempted essential federal, state, and local personnel; emergency and utility workers; transit workers; media; hotel workers; and patrons from the evacuation order.
There's even video of the order if you go follow the link.

Had enough yet, Corny? Because I can keep the assbeating going if you insist.

Actually no I'm not.

Even though all of the evidence suggests that you are?

No it isn't grounds for impeachment.... Clinton lying under oath now is an impeachable offense.

Huh. So, telling us that we needed to invade Iraq because big, bad Suddam Hussein was going to blow the bejeezus out of us with the imaginary WMDs doesn't count as lying under oath? Where did my parents go wrong, when they taught me about the difference between the truth and a lie?! :headbang:

So here's an idea. Rather than you telling us about how it's all New Orlean's fault that their city was destroyed (and really, it's not, look up the history of the MRGO if you're interested in learning how the federal government pretty much invited the storm surge in for a cup of tea and cookies), why don't you volunteer with a group to go, oh, I don't know- help?

Huh. So, telling us that we needed to invade Iraq because big, bad Suddam Hussein was going to blow the bejeezus out of us with the imaginary WMDs doesn't count as lying under oath?

When all of your intelligence is pointing to it, no it isn't lying.

Where did my parents go wrong, when they taught me about the difference between the truth and a lie?! :headbang:

They didn't go wrong.

So here's an idea. Rather than you telling us about how it's all New Orlean's fault that their city was destroyed (and really, it's not, look up the history of the MRGO if you're interested in learning how the federal government pretty much invited the storm surge in for a cup of tea and cookies), why don't you volunteer with a group to go, oh, I don't know- help?

Because I gave money to the Red Cross because I couldn't afford to go down to N.O. and assist them. I would've loved to go down south to assist them. In truth, my family did help with the recovery effort in N.O. Bolixi was harder hit than N.O. was but I do not see any mention of Bolixi or other towns that were literally wiped off the map.

Quit dodging, Corny. Admit you were wrong about Nagin and the evacuation order and that FEMA was denied access.

When all of your intelligence is pointing to it, no it isn't lying. Again, where are the WMDs? Obviously the intelligence was wrong, then, or we severely underestimated the Iraqis. And please, show me a news source where someone says that we have intelligence stating that Iraq is a threat.

Because I gave money to the Red Cross because I couldn't afford to go down to N.O. and assist them. I would've loved to go down south to assist them. In truth, my family did help with the recovery effort in N.O. Bolixi was harder hit than N.O. was but I do not see any mention of Bolixi or other towns that were literally wiped off the map. Yes, it's true that other cities have been hit harder, but where was all the media based when the storm hit? New Orleans. That's partially why everyone automatically thinks of New Orleans when they think of Katrina. It's the same mentality as 9-11: We all remember the planes hitting the Towers because most of the media is based out of New York City.

As for why people are freaking out about New Orleans being ruined by Katrina, you should also keep in mind it's also one of America's oldest cities, and a historical and cultural center. If the state of Pennsylvania were to explode tomorrow, people would be more concerned with the loss of Philadelphia before even thinking about Pittsburgh for the same reasons.

A timeline:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/katrina/katrina_timeline.html

If I am reading the OP correctly, the meeting took place on August 28th. This would be the same day that Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation.

Aug. 28, 2005
Katrina grows into a Category 5 storm with 260 km/h winds, and heads for the northern Gulf coast. Mayor Nagin orders a mandatory evacuation for New Orleans, but 10 shelters are also set up, including the Superdome, for those unable to leave. Evacuation orders are posted all along the Mississippi coast. Alabama Governor Bob Riley declares a state of emergency.

Hey--you might want to something like actually knowing the facts (http://www.gov.state.la.us/index.cfm?md=newsroom&tmp=detail&catID=1&articleID=776&navID=3) before you go making an ass of yourself like that. That link is the declaration of the state of emergency from the state on August 26.

This one (http://www.gov.state.la.us/index.cfm?md=newsroom&tmp=detail&catID=1&articleID=778&navID=3) is the request to the federal fucking government.



So what was that about them not asking for help in time? Huh?

A few hours before it hits isn't exactly in time. How long does it take to mobilize a few thousand people?

And I don't supposed you read the second half of that CNN article, did you?

A few hours before it hits isn't exactly in time. How long does it take to mobilize a few thousand people?

And I don't supposed you read the second half of that CNN article, did you?
Katrina hit on the 29th. Blanco declared the state of emergency on the 26th. The feds declared it on the 27th. And what's more, the city managed to evacuate 80% of the population, as opposed to the 50% they expected to be able to get out of the city. 80% of 500,000 people got out of the city. You still want to bitch about local ineffectiveness?

Tell you what--compare that evacuation to the parking lot that Houston became for Hurricane Rita, and then we'll fucking talk. Or even better, come down to this part of the country and go through it for yourself instead of talking a lot of shit that you obviously know nothing about.

Oh, by the way, there were a few mudslides over here in California a few months back...injured and killed some people, ruined a bunch of homes. Where was Bush? The scoundrel!

[/sarcasm]

Why the heck should it be President Bush's problem to do something about the state? And why all of a sudden is it his problem if the state or the people in the state don't do anything about it? Is Bush in charge of levee control? Is he in charge of weather control? This was a state issue, and should have been resolved on a state level, not a federal level.

No they didn't. Sorry my friend but if they did ask for help before the storm hit, the government would've been in there alot sooner. Also, if they have asked for help, FEMA would've gone in after the storm hit however the Governor didn't give them permission TO ENTER until a few days later. They were ready to go in.
Sorry my Corny friend but wrong answer. Still defending Bush at all costs huh?

Blame Blanco (http://www.snopes.com/katrina/politics/blanco.asp)

Governor Blanco asks President to Declare an Emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina (http://www.gov.state.la.us/index.cfm?md=newsroom&tmp=detail&catID=1&articleID=778&navID=3)

Actually no I'm not.

Actually, you are. The evidence abounds in this thread that you are, in fact, wrong. So now I can expect an apology for your assertion that I "go back and learn the facts"?

He all but ordered the evacuation of N.O.

Not until after the fact he did.


Oh Bull crap here.

If you paid attention to the demographics of the people who voted for him, you wouldn't say that. Bush all but rode to re-election on the votes of the people I've listed. Especially the fundies.

Actually, you are. The evidence abounds in this thread that you are, in fact, wrong. So now I can expect an apology for your assertion that I "go back and learn the facts"?
You really don't expect an apology from Corny do ya?

You really don't expect an apology from Corny do ya?
Why would anyone expect anything from Corneliu after pages of him arguing Bush's innocence vs fucking video tape evidence.

You really don't expect an apology from Corny do ya?

No. I expect him to plug his fingers into his ears while singing "La la la la la" or something similar.

I've got some money on that bet so either way, I win.

You really don't expect an apology from Corny do ya?

No, but his response to my post, whatever it may be, will be used against him later on.

No. I expect him to plug his fingers into his ears while singing "La la la la la" or something similar.

I've got some money on that bet so either way, I win.

(while laughing the first half of the post) Yes, yes you do.

No, but his response to my post, whatever it may be, will be used against him later on.
We're not going to get one anyways- he's logged off. :( Dammit all, I was having fun, too.

Assuming President Bush knew that it could be a major disaster...

What could he have done? Put up a giant shield around the city?

Some of those people would not leave.

And Nagin decided to forego the use of Nawlins school and city buses to help get the people out who wanted to get out.

But if you want to heap all of the responsibility on one man over a thousand miles away, go ahead.

FEMA has a job to do in cases like this. The state has a job to do in cases like this. The city has a job to do in cases like this.

Is the president supposed to be an expert on disaster relief and prevention? No. That's FEMA's job.

Is the president supposed to get state resources moving? No, that's the governor's job.

Is the president supposed to start up the buses to get people out? No, that's the mayor's job.

IMo, the major clusterfuck in all of this was the total lack of a recognized chain of command... that would be the president's ball to hit.

I think its completley obvious that Bush DESIGNED hurricane Katrina, he had it constructed out in the ocean under secrecy so it would attack the lower united states to kill thousands of people to prevent them from seceeding into another confederacy again. The evil bastard! just like he desinged the 9/11 attacks so he could expand his executive power, and just like how back in the 70's he, all on his own, invented the AIDS virus and sent it around the world.

He's the worlds greatest villian.....a million times worse than a million Hitlers.

Assuming President Bush knew that it could be a major disaster...

What could he have done? Put up a giant shield around the city?

Perhaps he could have cut short his vacation, or ordered a state of emergency prior to Ktrina's landfall.

Some of those people would not leave.

This has nothing to do with the debate.

And Nagin decided to forego the use of Nawlins school and city buses to help get the people out who wanted to get out.

This issue has already been dealt with in this thread, and does not excuse Bush's behaviour.

But if you want to heap all of the responsibility on one man over a thousand miles away, go ahead.

No one is placing all the responsibility on Bush. They are merely debating why he lied about being prepared.

FEMA has a job to do in cases like this. The state has a job to do in cases like this. The city has a job to do in cases like this.

Is the president supposed to be an expert on disaster relief and prevention? No. That's FEMA's job.

Is the president supposed to get state resources moving? No, that's the governor's job.

Is the president supposed to start up the buses to get people out? No, that's the mayor's job.

IMo, the major clusterfuck in all of this was the total lack of a recognized chain of command... that would be the president's ball to hit.

The President's job is to provide leadership and mobilise the resources that only he is capable of mobilising. He did not do that. His excuse was that he could not have known the severity of the storm. He apparently lied.

It's the federal -ing government. It can be -ing defined by it's -ing inefficiency. Expecting for the federal government to -ing do something right that -ing quickly is like expecting a -ing tribe of schizophrenic chimpanzees to start belting out -ing showtunes.

If anyone in America with their wits about them had any hope left in America, it should be gone now. When you can excuse Bush's response to Katrina and defend him in the face of video evidence, you are truly a hopelessly brainwashed and hopeless individual.

As I posted earlier, I was in New Orlenas for Ivan in 2004, also a strong 3-4 hurricane.

The local news service in its warning said
"The levee system could be overtopped by the storm surge"


In 2005 the levees along the lake front were overtopped by the surge which was expected, what no one really expected was the complete failure of the canal walls which is what led to the large amount of flooding as even at a normal time the level of the water in the canals is still above the ground level in large sections of NO, with wall failure the water poured in.

As for the people who were killed, a fair percentage still had their cars PARKED outside their houses when the flooding started

Katrina was a f*** up by the mayor:mad: , by the state governor:mad: and by the federal agencies:mad:

Dont let your hate of Bush blind you to what else went wrong and who was responsible:headbang:

Dont let your hate of Bush blind you to what else went wrong and who was responsible:headbang:
I don't hate Bush. Why do you support his obvious lie?

Wrong. The National Gaurd is the responsibility of the states. He could have mobilized them by going over the Governers heads, but then everyone would have bitched about how he was abusing his power.

There are just some people here who will never give Bush a break, and jump at any chance to bash him. Incidentally, that's why he won the election. You loonies made the good Lefties look bad.

Thanks, by the way! ;)

Your response makes you look downright ignorant. 36 hours before Hurricane Katrina hit Landfall the Governor's of Lousiana and Mississippi declared a State of Emergency and requested troops from the national guard. This letter is available in pdf form. It clearly states that there is a state of emergency and makes request for funds and equptment to start flowing immediately. And yes, it is right to bash someone when they completely screw the pooch on most everything I do. You want me to stop bashing, tell him to get more God damned competent at his job.

Assuming President Bush knew that it could be a major disaster...

What could he have done? Put up a giant shield around the city?

Some of those people would not leave.

And Nagin decided to forego the use of Nawlins school and city buses to help get the people out who wanted to get out.

But if you want to heap all of the responsibility on one man over a thousand miles away, go ahead.

FEMA has a job to do in cases like this. The state has a job to do in cases like this. The city has a job to do in cases like this.

Is the president supposed to be an expert on disaster relief and prevention? No. That's FEMA's job.

Is the president supposed to get state resources moving? No, that's the governor's job.

Is the president supposed to start up the buses to get people out? No, that's the mayor's job.

IMo, the major clusterfuck in all of this was the total lack of a recognized chain of command... that would be the president's ball to hit.

He said no one could have known, when report after report, as well as the video conference shown on Fox 5, said exactly that. So for him to say "I couldn't have known" after he was told is a big, steaming LIE!

He said no one could have known, when report after report, as well as the video conference shown on Fox 5, said exactly that. So for him to say "I couldn't have known" after he was told is a big, steaming LIE!
Give it up.

If Bush went on live tv and bit the head off of the cutest puppy that ever lived then went back on tv a week later and said it never happened, we would be here arguing with these same people about how some other person in the administration/liberals/Democrats did this or that and how they are trying to slander Bush and pawn off responsiblity on him when x or y person should've done blah blah blah and 3 to 1 odds that John Kerry and his Vietnam service would be brought up as a "defense."

It's the federal -ing government. It can be -ing defined by it's -ing inefficiency. Expecting for the federal government to -ing do something right that -ing quickly is like expecting a -ing tribe of schizophrenic chimpanzees to start belting out -ing showtunes.
Oh, I don't know. FEMA worked pretty well when James Lee Witt was in charge of it. You know--during the Clinton administration. At least when Clinton appointed his buddies, they knew their effing jobs.

Well, if you're looking for grounds for impeachment, you've got a list half a mile long, dating back to the whole "lying us into war in Iraq" bit.

But you hit the nail on the head with the first part of your comment. The issue is that the Bush administration has spent the last six months playing the "no one could have known" card, and now there's proof positive that not only could they have known, but that they definitively did know, and that makes the shitty response after the hurricane that much more reprehensible. This takes Bush from incompetent to apathetic.


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A newly released transcript from a video conference the day Hurricane Katrina struck seems to reinforce arguments that governments at all levels identified the potential dangers from the storm but were under-prepared for the devastation.

In the transcript released Wednesday, Michael Brown, then-director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, seems confident the emergency response is well in hand as he leads the August 29 briefing.

Brown praises Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco and others for "doing a good job" and assures officials that President Bush, who was vacationing at his Crawford, Texas, ranch, is in close touch. (Watch for Brown's warning and Bush's assurances -- 2:10)

Hurricane Katrina, which had been a Category 5 storm a day before, hit the Gulf Coast near the Louisiana-Mississippi border early August 29, a Monday.

Bush has been accused of showing poor leadership after the disaster, and for indicating, along with Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, that no one could have anticipated that the flood protection system for New Orleans, Louisiana, would be breached.

However, transcripts from video conferences on August 28 and 29 show that National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield expressed concern that Katrina might push its storm surge over the city's levees and flood walls.

"I don't think anyone can tell you with confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not, but that's obviously a very, very great concern," Mayfield says in one.

In a September 1 television interview, Bush said, "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees," a statement Chertoff agreed with three days later.

In an apparent effort to deflect criticism from the administration, Department of Homeland Security officials highlighted transcript parts that showed any weakness by local officials.

For instance, although some levees and flood walls failed early August 29, Blanco is unaware of this development during the midday briefing.

"We keep getting reports in some places that maybe water is coming over the levees. We heard a report unconfirmed. I think we have not breached the levee," Blanco tells the group.

Brown stresses that Bush is heavily involved.

"I talked to the president twice today, once in Crawford and then again on Air Force One," Brown tells those at the briefing. "He remains very, very interested in this situation.

"He's obviously watching the television a lot, and he had some questions about the Dome [Louisiana Superdome in New Orleans]. He's asking questions about reports of breaches. He's asking about hospitals. He's very engaged, and he's asking a lot of really good questions I would expect him to ask," Brown adds.

Bush, who participated in the August 28 FEMA briefing, reassures officials that everything is under control.

"I want to assure the folks at the state level that we are fully prepared to not only help you during the storm, but we will move in whatever resources and assets we have at our disposal after the storm to help you deal with the loss of property. And we pray for no loss of life, of course," he says.

Bush did not participate in the next day's briefing. By that time, 11 inches of rain had fallen in New Orleans, the massive storm surge had damaged the flood protection system and about 15,000 people were in the Superdome. That figure eventually doubled, leading to days of intolerable conditions before residents could be bused elsewhere.

The Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs requested the video from the August 29 briefing in its investigation of the federal government's response.

Brown resigned September 12 after being recalled to Washington under a barrage of criticism over his job qualifications and FEMA's response to the disaster. Recently, he has accused the administration of using him as a scapegoat.

In response to the August 28-29 videotapes, the White House said Wednesday the briefings represented only a snapshot of what went on behind the scenes. Bush was fully engaged in emergency preparations, the White House said.

At the August 28 briefing, Brown tells Bush he is concerned that the roof of the Superdome -- the shelter of last resort for New Orleans -- would be unable to withstand a Category 5 hurricane.

Katrina weakened slightly as it approached the coast and was a strong Category 3 when the center of the storm made landfall southeast of New Orleans near Grand Isle, Louisiana.

Brown voices concern about the ability of national response teams "to respond to a catastrophe within a catastrophe." He says he had heard that there had been no mandatory evacuations of patients from hospitals and inmates from prisons.

On Wednesday, Brown's attorney, Andy Lester, said the most recently released tape "shows that Michael Brown was sounding the alarm" with the White House and the Department of Homeland Security.

"He was repeatedly saying move things forward, push the envelope, jump over the envelope," Lester said in a written statement.

"Michael Brown was on the job, was doing his job and was making sure people above him at the White House and DHS were fully aware of everything that was going on in an extremely timely and urgent manner," Lester said. "It paints a different picture than what we have seen painted thus far."

Sen. Joseph Lieberman, the ranking Democrat on the Senate committee, said the tape "demonstrates for all to see what our committee discovered during its investigation of the preparations for and response to Hurricane Katrina."

"Government at all levels was forewarned of the catastrophic nature of the approaching storm and did painfully little to be ready to evacuate, search, rescue and relieve," said the Connecticut lawmaker, who had accused the White House of stonewalling the committee.

More than 1,300 people were killed by Katrina in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida -- where the storm first hit August 25 as a Category 1 hurricane.

A special House committee concluded last month that the response to Katrina at all levels of government was dismal, poorly planned and badly coordinated, showing that "America is still not ready for prime time" more than four years after the September 11, 2001, attacks.

Then I guess the press was wrong in the regards that they have reported that Bush told Nagin to order the evacuation and it was then that Nagin ordered the evacation. What say you?



No they didn't. Sorry my friend but if they did ask for help before the storm hit, the government would've been in there alot sooner. Also, if they have asked for help, FEMA would've gone in after the storm hit however the Governor didn't give them permission TO ENTER until a few days later. They were ready to go in.

Also, if they have asked for help, the Red Cross would've been at the Superdome. Guess what? They were forbidden to go there by the Governor.



The state has more authority in this case. Not Bush or Chertoff.

Are you lying or just flat out wrong? Here's the letter writtern to Bush on 8/27 you bushtard.

Issued by Louisiana Governor's Office
"Press Release
Date: 8/27/2005 [Saturday]
Contact:Denise Bottcher or Roderick Hawkins at 225-342-9037

Governor Blanco asks President to Declare an Emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina

BATON ROUGE—Today Governor Kathleen Babineaux Blanco forwarded a letter to President Bush requesting that he declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina. The full text of the letter follows:

August 27, 2005
The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR § 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan.

Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.

Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in Enclosure A.

The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the conditions of this emergency:

• Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby.

• Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby.

• Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters.

• Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation of the coastal areas.

• Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and Rescue Missions.

• Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Coordinating traffic flow and management of the evacuations routes with local officials and the State of Mississippi.

The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this incident:

• FEMA ERT-A Team en-route.

I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford Act.

I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and protect property.

(a) List any reasons State and local government cannot perform or contract for performance, (if applicable).

(b) Specify the type of assistance requested.

In accordance with 44 CFR § 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance:

1. Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work.

2. Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising from such work;

3. Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and

4. Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local jurisdictional matters.

In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety.

Pursuant to Sections 502 and 407 of the Stafford Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5192 & 5173, the State agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the United States of America for any claims arising from the removal of debris or wreckage for this disaster. The State agrees that debris removal from public and private property will not occur until the landowner signs an unconditional authorization for the removal of debris.

I have designated Mr. Art Jones as the State Coordinating Officer for this request. He will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency in damage assessments and may provide further information or justification on my behalf.

Sincerely,
Kathleen Babineaux Blanco
Governor
Enclosure

ENCLOSURE A TO EMERGENCY REQUEST

Estimated requirements for other Federal agency programs:

• Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters (SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.

• Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and establishing (3) on Standby. Costs estimated at $500,000 per week for each in operation.

• Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters. Costs estimated to range from $250,000-$500,000 to support (6) Shelter generator operations.

• Louisiana State Police (LSP): Costs to support evacuations - $300,000 for a non-direct landfall.

• Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Costs to support evacuations - $200,000 for a non-direct landfall.

• Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD): Costs to support evacuations - $2,000,000 for a non-direct landfall.

Totals: $ 9,000,000

Estimated Requirements for assistance under the Stafford Act:

Coordination: $0
Technical and advisory assistance: $0
Debris removal: $0
Emergency protective measures: $ 9,000,000
Individuals and Households Program (IHP): $0
Distribution of emergency supplies: $0
Other (specify): $0

Totals: $ 9,000,000
Grand Total: $ 9,000,000"

http://www.gov.state.la.us/
Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976

Ah Liuzzo, you must be new. Welcome to the world of the Corneliu.

Go back and learn the facts. He basically ordered the evac of New Orleans because Mayor Nagin didn't do so.
Please do try to stay on topic young Corny. This topic is about Bush lying and denying, and the evidence is certainly overwhelming.

Sdaeriji has requested an apology and you will be supplying that when?

Or will this be yet another example of you getting caught with your pants down and you disappearing for awhile?

I'd like to agree with CanuckHeaven that some of the arguments in this thread have moved away from the central point of the initial post.

The central point of the video evidence isn't over whether the President could have done more to help New Orleans, or over whether the Federal, State, or local authorities were more responsible for the subsequent disaster. Here we could argue over the specifics for a very long time, and the very nature of the US federal system means that the question of responsibility remains hard to pin down.

The central point here is that the President of the United States lied. He stated on several occasions that no one could anticipate that the levees would break, and that no one could anticipate the scale of the disaster. This has quite conclusively been proven to be a lie.

This is quite a different point from arguing whether, having been forewarned, the President should have done more.

The real debate here, then, should be over how significant you think that lie is.

I think that most sensible people figured that Bush knew what was going on. I don’t think that most people thought that Bush was stupid enough to have people video tape him saying that he knew what was going on and be recorded telling all the top disaster officials that everything was taken care of. But then every time you think it couldn’t be this presidency doesn’t disappoint:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...ush-060301.html

I hope that this got the attention it deserved in the US media, but I'm not very hopeful.

I think that most sensible people figured that Bush knew what was going on. I don’t think that most people thought that Bush was stupid enough to have people video tape him saying that he knew what was going on and be recorded telling all the top disaster officials that everything was taken care of. But then every time you think it couldn’t be this presidency doesn’t disappoint:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...ush-060301.html

I hope that this got the attention it deserved in the US media, but I'm not very hopeful.
Your link is not working. Perhaps this link is better?

Bush was warned about threat of Katrina, video shows (http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/03/01/katrina-bush-060301.html)

Bush is not seen asking any questions during the briefing, but is heard telling state officials, "We are fully prepared."

On Wednesday, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin had blunt words about the tape, which is part of six days of tapes and briefings obtained by the Associated Press.

"You know, from this tape it looks like everybody was fully aware," Nagin said. "I have kind a sinking feeling in my gut right now."

The White House, however, was downplaying the signficance of the video.

"I hope people don't draw conclusions from the president getting a single briefing," presidential spokesman Trent Duffy said. "He received multiple briefings from multiple officials, and he was completely engaged at all times."

How nice of the White House to downplay "the signficance of the video"!!!

Want to get sick to your stomach? Check out the response from Freeperland (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1588067/posts). Classy bunch of folks there.

Want to get sick to your stomach? Check out the response from Freeperland (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1588067/posts). Classy bunch of folks there.
Kinda sad commentary to say the least. I suppose some of these people actually delude themselves into thinking that they are patriotic Americans, and believe in truth and justice? It is that kind of thinking that destroys a country.

Kinda sad commentary to say the least. I suppose some of these people actually delude themselves into thinking that they are patriotic Americans, and believe in truth and justice? It is that kind of thinking that destroys a country.
That's certainly the case--they consider themselves to be uber-patriots, as a matter of fact. They're really a bunch of sad, pathetic people who are so scared of their own shadows that they believe someone as incompetent as Goerge W. Bush can actually protect them.

That's certainly the case--they consider themselves to be uber-patriots, as a matter of fact. They're really a bunch of sad, pathetic people who are so scared of their own shadows that they believe someone as incompetent as Goerge W. Bush can actually protect them.
If they really think that, then perhaps they should think about the anchor that Bush threw to Brownie as he was going down?

Question? Why haven't the major news outlets in the US run with this story?

If they really think that, then perhaps they should think about the anchor that Bush threw to Brownie as he was going down?

Question? Why haven't the major news outlets in the US run with this story?
I've seen it in the papers, but I don't watch television, so I don't know how, if at all, it's been covered there. And in the newspapers, I've seen the problem of missing the point, as have many in this thread. The assumption seems to be that Democrats and Katrina victims are blaming Bush for something he had no control over--the storm. That's not the case--the outrage comes from the disconnect between what they said right after the storm--that no one could have anticipated the problems--and the fact that they anticipated those very problems and still managed to bungle the job so badly.

I've seen it in the papers, but I don't watch television, so I don't know how, if at all, it's been covered there. And in the newspapers, I've seen the problem of missing the point, as have many in this thread. The assumption seems to be that Democrats and Katrina victims are blaming Bush for something he had no control over--the storm. That's not the case--the outrage comes from the disconnect between what they said right after the storm--that no one could have anticipated the problems--and the fact that they anticipated those very problems and still managed to bungle the job so badly.

Funny isn't it? If lying under court oath is grounds for removal from office, what do you get when you lie directly about not knowing about a disaster of citywide proportions?

Apparently nothing by the Cornster type masses.

Think he'll show his face on this thread again?

Funny isn't it? If lying under court oath is grounds for removal from office, what do you get when you lie directly about not knowing about a disaster of citywide proportions?

Apparently nothing by the Cornster type masses.

Think he'll show his face on this thread again?

Oh so we can blame a administration for nothing but let the Mayor and governor(democrats mind you ;) ) gewt away with what they didnt do to get the rescue and clean up going? Phht hypocrits i say....

Oh so we can blame a administration for nothing but let the Mayor and governor(democrats mind you ;) ) gewt away with what they didnt do to get the rescue and clean up going? Phht hypocrits i say....

No. I get strawmen from desperately stubborn people who don't want to admit that Bush got caught lying big time and demonstratably being apathetic at the least regarding impending disasters.

Like you.

"Bush knew about Katrina"

No shit. As if even Bush isn't going to notice a freaking hurricane speeding towards the gulf coast on a radar.

This is just another reason to bash Bush and flame anyone who doesn't. You think he doesn't get a hundred thread assessments every single day? He HAS to delegate things. Even were he Stephen Hawking (which we all know he is not) he could not singlehandedly run the U.S.

If I was president, and a hurricane was barreling down someplace, I would be like "somebody in the field- take care of this, I have terrorism and the economy and fifty other things to worry about."

All of you people are idiots. No shit Bush knew about Katrina! Everyone knew about Katrina. Bush recomended that the city evacuate. If you want to blame people for everyone who got killed, Blame either the governor of Louisiana or the Mayor of New Orleans.

Why are people such fucking morons!

:upyours:
:headbang:

"Bush knew about Katrina"

No shit. As if even Bush isn't going to notice a freaking hurricane speeding towards the gulf coast on a radar.

This is just another reason to bash Bush and flame anyone who doesn't. You think he doesn't get a hundred thread assessments every single day? He HAS to delegate things. Even were he Stephen Hawking (which we all know he is not) he could not singlehandedly run the U.S.

If I was president, and a hurricane was barreling down someplace, I would be like "somebody in the field- take care of this, I have terrorism and the economy and fifty other things to worry about." All of you people are idiots. No shit Bush knew about Katrina! Everyone knew about Katrina. Bush recomended that the city evacuate. If you want to blame people for everyone who got killed, Blame either the governor of Louisiana or the Mayor of New Orleans.

Why are people such fucking morons!

:upyours:
:headbang:
"Why are people such fucking morons?"
Why indeed. Why don't you take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror one day before answering. Both of you. Then read the article again. It's not about Bush not doing anything. It's not about Bush not knowing. It's about Bush being told directly to his face by at least two people in important disaster prevention/recovery postions that Katrina was going to be a major problem and was going to breach the levees and then days after it did just that, stating publicly that 'No-one could have foreseen the levees would be breached'.

In other words: He LIED.

He blantantly lied to the public and all you ppl are doing are desperately scrabbling about erecting strawmen so as to not have to deal with this unpalatable fact.



Kinda sad really. So desperate are some ppl in their denial that they blind themselves completely to the truth.

Kinda sad really. So desperate are some ppl in their denial that they blind themselves completely to the truth.

Maybe they're trying the "If I can't see the bus, it won't hit me." approach.

I'd like to agree with CanuckHeaven that some of the arguments in this thread have moved away from the central point of the initial post.

Of course. See this is what they do when they've run out of cards in an arguement, they pull out random talking points from a hat an hope it flies.

You see this a LOT with Righties on Air America Radio, no matter WHOs show its on, weither it be Al-Franken's show or Randi Rhodes show or the majorty report or Mike Malloy show (they do it a LOT on that show.) even the two Jones Radio Networks shows: Edd shultz and Stephine miller show you see them do it alot.

Why? Because, if they stick to the topic, they get anihalated in the debate. So they try to go the guilt-trip fox news route to turn it back in thier favor

LISTEN TO ME RIGHTIES

IT DOESNT WORK!

SO STOP TRYING IT!

It only works on right-wing spawns places, like Rush limboughs show, or Fox news. IT DOES NOT WORK ON LEFT WING RADIO, OR EVEN NEUTRAL GROUND!

In other words: He LIED.

He blantantly lied to the public and all you ppl are doing are desperately scrabbling about erecting strawmen so as to not have to deal with this unpalatable fact.

He lied. NO SHIT. He's a politician. He delegated, they screwed up. Then he tried to cover his tracks by denying knowledge. This is news? Name one politician who hasn't lied to the public and I will name another liar- YOU.

I am far from a Bush supporter, but you people (your words, I just don't use aimspeak) seem to want to hold him under a microscope. Many Democrats in this country agree with you, while it was ok with them for Clinton to lie, under oath.

And you obviously do not understand the term straw man. You are misusing it and it makes you seem ignorant. So please, work on that before you imply that others are stupid.

He lied. NO SHIT. He's a politician. He delegated, they screwed up. Then he tried to cover his tracks by denying knowledge. This is news? Name one politician who hasn't lied to the public and I will name another liar- YOU.

I am far from a Bush supporter, but you people (your words, I just don't use aimspeak) seem to want to hold him under a microscope. Many Democrats in this country agree with you, while it was ok with them for Clinton to lie, under oath.

And you obviously do not understand the term straw man. You are misusing it and it makes you seem ignorant. So please, work on that before you imply that others are stupid.
Oh gee. Cause someone else lied that means it's ok for Bush to have done so. Wow. How silly of me not to realise that. I imagine you were vocal in your condemnation of Clinton's impeachment, because you know he just lied. And hey, all politicians lie. So what's the prob?

Oh, and fyi:
Description of Straw Man
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Now, let's see, what did you do?
I posted an article that showed Bush lied.
Here's your post:

"Bush knew about Katrina"

No shit. As if even Bush isn't going to notice a freaking hurricane speeding towards the gulf coast on a radar.

This is just another reason to bash Bush and flame anyone who doesn't. You think he doesn't get a hundred thread assessments every single day? He HAS to delegate things. Even were he Stephen Hawking (which we all know he is not) he could not singlehandedly run the U.S.

If I was president, and a hurricane was barreling down someplace, I would be like "somebody in the field- take care of this, I have terrorism and the economy and fifty other things to worry about."
Gosh, seems to me like someone simply ignored my actual post and just substitutesd a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.
But then again, someone who posts strawmen would hardly admit it, would they?

"Bush knew about Katrina" wow, isn't that just amazing. The whole country knew about katrina. It called, "the weather"
The real question is, have we sunk so low as individuals that we need the president to tell us what to do and when to do it for everything? You live in a coastal city that is below the water level, you know there is a hurricane coming, so, of course you wait for the president, who is thousands of miles away, to tell you to maybe go somewhere else for a few days, instead of thinking for yourselves. seriously, take some responsibility.

"Bush knew about Katrina" wow, isn't that just amazing. The whole country knew about katrina. It called, "the weather"
The real question is, have we sunk so low as individuals that we need the president to tell us what to do and when to do it for everything? You live in a coastal city that is below the water level, you know there is a hurricane coming, so, of course you wait for the president, who is thousands of miles away, to tell you to maybe go somewhere else for a few days, instead of thinking for yourselves. seriously, take some responsibility.

You're new, I'll, give you the benefit of a doubt providing you're not a puppet. The point isn't that Bush didn't know about the weather. It was that he was told quite specifically that the levees were in danger of being broken. Then he went on TV after the fact and said nobody could have predicted it.

Or do I have to use the Cluehammer 40,000 to make some people get it?

Wow. The 2 Minutes Hate started early today.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. Its sooooooooooo true.

Christ... I read this earlier. This is going to cause a ruckus once it gets into the papers and such.

I voted for Bush both times, but to be perfectly honest, I'm tired of the idiot. The term "Republican" will be synonomous with "Bush" which is itself synonomous with "fucking dipshit" for the next few years at this rate.

Can't he just resign? And take Dick with him? Honestly, the Speaker of the House would make such a better president...

Of course, at this rate, by the time the year's out, an ashtray would make a better president.

It's times like this that I really have to take a step back and ask, "How?" How can one man possibly be so dense? How is it physically possible? Bush has been practically handed on a goddamn silver platter countless opportunities to humiliate and incapacitate his liberal opposition, and he just passes them off like passing gnat.

Remember the old SNL skits about how Dubya was sitting on his dad's lap? God, I wish that were true... compared to what his dingbat son has done, Bush Sr. could have really done some worthwhile stuff over the past five years.

Oh gee. Cause someone else lied that means it's ok for Bush to have done so. Wow. How silly of me not to realise that. I imagine you were vocal in your condemnation of Clinton's impeachment, because you know he just lied. And hey, all politicians lie. So what's the prob?

*Sigh* All politicians DO lie. He got caught at it because this tape was released. An error, true, but not enough to get your panties all in a twist like they have done. You and the media are blowing this out of proportion because you already dislike the man. And FYI, I was against Clinton's impeachment because it was just politicians being politicians and playing politics. After all, if the president of the U.S. can't get a hummer from an intern, then why take the job? And what's he going to do, admitt it with his wife standing there?

Gosh, seems to me like someone simply ignored my actual post and just substitutesd a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.
But then again, someone who posts strawmen would hardly admit it, would they?

I was commenting on your thread title as you obviously know. As has everyone else who has written "Bush knew about Katrina, NO SHIT! It's hard to miss a hurricane." Your thread title is misleading and is in itself asking to be made fun of. I did not mention your position because I had no comment on it. Anyone who believes that politicians do not lie or should be crucified for lying isn't facing reality. So by your textbook definition, I did not commit a straw man because I did not substitute ANY version of your position. I merely made the correct assessment that you are a Bush-basher.

...compared to what his dingbat son has done, Bush Sr. could have really done some worthwhile stuff over the past five years.
Just wait til Jeb has a crack at being Pres. Then you'll be talking about the good ol' days of GWB.

Just wait til Neb has a crack at being Pres. Then you'll be talking about the good ol' days of GWB.

You're right on that one, if it's Jeb you mean. I live in Florida and he is such a fuckup he makes GW seem like a Rhodes scholar.

Just wait til Neb has a crack at being Pres. Then you'll be talking about the good ol' days of GWB.

Who? o_O

I did mean Jeb. Curse these fat fingers of mine!

Ah. Well, Jeb, like Cheney, says he won't run and won't serve if they elect him anyway. Probably for the better.

Here's what boggles my mind. I spent a year in Texas while Bushie was the governor. He didn't strike me as being a dipshit in any capacity. I had some respect for the man, even.

Then, he becomes president on the narrowest of margins, some important buildings get blown up, he makes some ballsy speeches, and we knock over a dictaorship in Afghanistan. Okay, good stuff so far.

Next, we go off to Iraq, which seemed like a good idea at the time, and it just falls apart from here. Bush's administration can't properly invade a country, and thus we have the shitstorm there now. Meanwhile, it seems as though the man's ability to get his point across, and whatever political saviness he had as Governor and Post 9-11 President seems to evaporate like a tablespoon of water on a hot skillet.

I'm still irritated that the Democrats couldn't find someone who was less of a pinhead than him to win the 2004 election. Bush practically -gave- it to them, and they couldn't win it.

Honestly, how can you not beat Bush, especially at that point in time? Mind boggling...

(for the record, I was really hoping Senator Lieberman would have made the Dem ticket. I trust him.)

Given that this news was broken by MSNBC, I think that we can greet this bit of news with only slightly more credence than we would give the latest sighting of "batboy" in the National Enquirer. Until I see the entire clip, including a time stamp, so we can be sure it is not more misdirection, I am going to assume it is total B.S., as I read nothing in the article that I had not already known. The Army Corps of Engineers gave the levees in New Orleans a failing grade agaisnt a Catagory 4 hurricane some 2 years back, before it struck. And no-one knew precisely where Katrina would make landfall until a matter of hours before it hit. No-one ever does. Hurricanes are by their very nature, unpredictable. A swing of 20 miles or so east or west either way would have made this whole situation a moot point. Knowing exactly when the video was shot, and seeing it unedited would give the clip the true light it needs for interpretation. All this just smells like more liberal trashmongering, at this point.

You're right on that one, if it's Jeb you mean. I live in Florida and he is such a fuckup he makes GW seem like a Rhodes scholar.
The Bush family: Proving Darwin wrong, one generation at a time.

http://orlyowl.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/orly_bush.jpg.w300h290.jpg

Given that this news was broken by MSNBC, I think that we can greet this bit of news with only slightly more credence than we would give the latest sighting of "batboy" in the National Enquirer. Until I see the entire clip, including a time stamp, so we can be sure it is not more misdirection, I am going to assume it is total B.S.,

Ah yes. As we all know, giant corporations are leftist propaganda pits. Seriously, do you hear how silly you sound? If anything, the main-stream, fast food, mile-wide and inch deep press has been PROTECTING Bush by not doing it's job.

Don't you realize that the reason that the freedom of the press is guaranteed in the Constitution is because it's supposed to give us information the government doesn't want us to have? It's a buffer against tyranny. The goddam press is supposed to be anti-establishment and cynical. Not liberal. Not conservative. Not even unbiased (which is impossible.) What it's supposed to be is hyper-critical of anyone in power. It limits the power of the government by shining a light on it. Unfortunately, in this day and age of cash trails, mega-corporate ownership and political partisanship, the press' job has been badly diluted.

As I read nothing in the article that I had not already known. The Army Corps of Engineers gave the levees in New Orleans a failing grade agaisnt a Catagory 4 hurricane some 2 years back, before it struck.

And yet President Bush publicly stated that no one could have anticipated that the levees could be breached. That's the one and only real point of this thread, after all, and you've managed to neatly avoid it.

And no-one knew precisely where Katrina would make landfall until a matter of hours before it hit. No-one ever does. Hurricanes are by their very nature, unpredictable. A swing of 20 miles or so east or west either way would have made this whole situation a moot point.

Is your memory that short? First of all, a lot of people thought New Orleans had dodged a bullet because the hurricane DID swing away from slamming directly into the city. So, the worst case scenario, in fact, did not happen. But see, in disaster planning YOU HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR THE WORST CASE SCENARIO, and they didn't. You have something unpredictable going on? You ASSUME THE WORST. Even a child should know this. Why are you bending over backwards to justify incompetence? Incompetence at all levels, I might add.

Knowing exactly when the video was shot, and seeing it unedited would give the clip the true light it needs for interpretation.

Blame fat lazy slobs who want their news in 15 second bites for that. The great majority of people, when confronted with in-depth reporting and unedited recordings, tend to change the channel to "When Animals Attack Old People." Yeah, the liberal media my ass. My god, a liberal media would be an intellectual PARADISE compared to the drivel one gets on network and cable news. What you see on TV is NOT liberal. What you see on TV is precisely and ruthlessly designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator and sell useless crap you really don't need anyway. It's the opposite of liberal, even more so than conservative is.

All this just smells like more liberal trashmongering, at this point.

No, it sounds like more right-wing denial to me. Turn a critical eye on this administration. Does anyone really need to make up or exaggerate things to make them look bad? If your answer is yes, then you simply have not been paying attention. I bet when you got a question wrong on a test in school, you accused the teacher of not covering the subject.

All this just smells like more liberal trashmongering, at this point.
Hmmmm Bush gets caught in a huge lie and that makes the resulting fallout "liberal trashmongering"? Are you suggesting that Bush should not be held accountable for his irresponible actions? Are you suggesting that only conservatives have the right to hold Bush accountable?

I'm not sure what's worse--the fact of the matter, or the fact that I'm not even remotely surprised.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4765058.stm

So, once again, Bush manages to weasel his way out by having a subordinate take the blame. Certainly appears that way. Brown was made a scapegoat.
Let's just wait for the beafening silence on US media's part over this. No doubt the first excuse to be trotted out will be 'That was 4 months ago! It's old news. Time to move on'.
It was clear right from the start that Bush already knew about it before... he didn't do anything about it because the storm was too convenient, taking out a lot of people who are against him. He couldn't pass up that opportunity. :mad:

All this just smells like more liberal trashmongering, at this point.

So the Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2067125,00.html) is a 'liberal trashmonger'? Better get on the line to Murdoch, y'know, the guy who owns the Times, Fox, Sky, all that lot...

I think it's time to break out a Potaria classic

Any biased information is unsound and can be ignored
Evidence is mounting that Bush is an incompetent
Therefore reality is biased and can safely be ignored.

No. I get strawmen from desperately stubborn people who don't want to admit that Bush got caught lying big time and demonstratably being apathetic at the least regarding impending disasters.

Like you.

No no no, like you. Because EVEN the Governor and Mayor thought the levees would hold, real cute buddy. ;)

Ah yes. As we all know, giant corporations are leftist propaganda pits. Seriously, do you hear how silly you sound? If anything, the main-stream, fast food, mile-wide and inch deep press has been PROTECTING Bush by not doing it's job.

Don't you realize that the reason that the freedom of the press is guaranteed in the Constitution is because it's supposed to give us information the government doesn't want us to have? It's a buffer against tyranny. The goddam press is supposed to be anti-establishment and cynical. Not liberal. Not conservative. Not even unbiased (which is impossible.) What it's supposed to be is hyper-critical of anyone in power. It limits the power of the government by shining a light on it. Unfortunately, in this day and age of cash trails, mega-corporate ownership and political partisanship, the press' job has been badly diluted.



And yet President Bush publicly stated that no one could have anticipated that the levees could be breached. That's the one and only real point of this thread, after all, and you've managed to neatly avoid it.



Is your memory that short? First of all, a lot of people thought New Orleans had dodged a bullet because the hurricane DID swing away from slamming directly into the city. So, the worst case scenario, in fact, did not happen. But see, in disaster planning YOU HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR THE WORST CASE SCENARIO, and they didn't. You have something unpredictable going on? You ASSUME THE WORST. Even a child should know this. Why are you bending over backwards to justify incompetence? Incompetence at all levels, I might add.



Blame fat lazy slobs who want their news in 15 second bites for that. The great majority of people, when confronted with in-depth reporting and unedited recordings, tend to change the channel to "When Animals Attack Old People." Yeah, the liberal media my ass. My god, a liberal media would be an intellectual PARADISE compared to the drivel one gets on network and cable news. What you see on TV is NOT liberal. What you see on TV is precisely and ruthlessly designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator and sell useless crap you really don't need anyway. It's the opposite of liberal, even more so than conservative is.



No, it sounds like more right-wing denial to me. Turn a critical eye on this administration. Does anyone really need to make up or exaggerate things to make them look bad? If your answer is yes, then you simply have not been paying attention. I bet when you got a question wrong on a test in school, you accused the teacher of not covering the subject.

Ah a finely tuned left-0wing nut, just lovely. Didnt you notice that the ones in charge of the state were Liberal and democrat? Oh yes you forgot that didnt you, "oh so intellectual one". :rolleyes:
You do realize that its the STATE leaders that are ultimately are the ones in charge of the situation down there with disasters right? Didnt think you would be smart enough for that, so i told ya. And if anyone likes to think that just because Bush was supposely suprised that the levees didnt hold, well so was everyone else. ;) :rolleyes:

:upyours: bush is a idoit wow he knew but he didn't react thats so stupid

Bumper Sticker:

Katrina Survivor
"Atleast it wasn't Abu Ghraib"

Vote Jeb Bush 08'
American's need more gun's, "especially in the State of Iran."

US president on Katrina

53 states served and counting.

Katrina Survior letter to OBL
I couldn't see any tall buildings to crash my overflight into they seemed well defended all boarded up, so I had to return home, sorry bin laden.

Ps. I've killed more Americans than you luser. Outdo your neightbour the American way since sex.

Sinceryly
Mr. President, former cokehead service dodger nomentcalture former cult mass murderer turned middle east and sheikman of the few years since I graduated kindergarten on sept 11 2001. We need more kids in the whitehouse,... no one will ever geuss whenever i need to make a descision since 911 I just ask the kids in that class. Sadly when I send my 100 page breifs to them, they don't always understand the words so it takes them extra long to reply. Sorry Katrina victims I'm a survivor too. Atleast this time I flew, damn VC no where to be seen in Lousiana.


(the dumbest post ever, what fed me this one...)

3 pages.. ah it's all BS anyway.. am I getting a foot massage right now..
what do you expect. Do you have any idea how much disproportion of services there is in the US. I sure as hell don't but when watching the stuff it is clear to see some people do not live in total luxury.. there are appartments nad less out there while other people own whole islands and apartment buildings.

Donate money to the BUY ME AN ISLAND FUND. serving AMERICANS LIKE YOU EVERY DAY (i feel like it)

choi chow.

Stuff happens but being critical of your president cause he puts old people on the roof or a vice president cause he shoots a party member is no reason to be a dissentor, the only good reason is cuase your a nice person, other wise its hypocracy when you eat ice cream and claim to be a vegan.

this post did make sense. that is all.
this post did make sense. that is all.
this post did make sense. that is all.
this post did make sense. that is all.
this post did make sense. that is all.
this post did make sense. that is all.
this post did make sense. that is all.

:upyours: bush is a idoit wow he knew but he didn't react thats so stupid

Begone silly left wing nut. :D

Now back to topic.

Ah a finely tuned left-0wing nut, just lovely. Didnt you notice that the ones in charge of the state were Liberal and democrat? Oh yes you forgot that didnt you, "oh so intellectual one". :rolleyes:
You do realize that its the STATE leaders that are ultimately are the ones in charge of the situation down there with disasters right? Didnt think you would be smart enough for that, so i told ya. And if anyone likes to think that just because Bush was supposely suprised that the levees didnt hold, well so was everyone else. ;) :rolleyes:
This has nothing to do with who is in charge of Louisiana. This has everything to do with your President lying to the people. The buck stops where?

This has nothing to do with who is in charge of Louisiana. This has everything to do with your President lying to the people. The buck stops where?
The buck stops at clearly defined buck stopping stations. None of which is anywhere near the president.

Bush is quite a good president
he wouldnt do anything that wasnt going to make america stronger
I mean look at Iraq
Mission accomplished

greatest president ever

No no no, like you. Because EVEN the Governor and Mayor thought the levees would hold, real cute buddy. ;)

And guess what? Apparently someone told Bush that they wouldn't. And the engineering corps as someone listed earlier, gave it a failing grade. So why did Bush go on TV and say "No one could have predicted them failing"?

Maybe all those people who told him happened to have been named Mr No One?

You sir, deserve the cluehammer 40,000 to the upside.

Or perhaps you should go into the agricultural industry for your ability to manufacture straw from nothing.

Instead of answering points, you dodge them with all the finesse of a drunk driver. Perhaps you are cornster in disguise?

Ah a finely tuned left-0wing nut, just lovely. Didnt you notice that the ones in charge of the state were Liberal and democrat? Oh yes you forgot that didnt you, "oh so intellectual one". :rolleyes:
I love it when people act as though Louisiana Democrats are liberal. It just proves how retarded our political system has become. Take it from a liberal who grew up in Louisiana--it's ain't so. Compare the voting records of LA Dems with those of moderate Republicans and you'll find some eerie similarities.

President bush is the most Corrupt president in history
That tape shows he is a racist fool

And the fact that Governor Blanco told the media that the levees were not breached 3hrs after they were breached has no bearing or the fact that their were hundreds of school buses which the mayor could have used to get people out of New Orleans has no bearing on who is to blame. Gotch ya:D

And the fact that Governor Blanco told the media that the levees were not breached 3hrs after they were breached has no bearing or the fact that their were hundreds of school buses which the mayor could have used to get people out of New Orleans has no bearing on who is to blame. Gotch ya:D
This topic is not about Governor Blanco, nor the use of school buses. This is about President Bush lying to Americans. Why do you absolve Bush of his irresponsibility in this matter by attacking others?

BTW, in regards to your 3 hour delay story:

Row rages over Katrina response (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4702090.stm)

Former Fema chief Michael Brown said officials knew levees were breached in New Orleans much earlier than admitted but did not act swiftly enough.

Mr Brown criticised the Department of Homeland Security, which controls the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

He said DHS policies had put Fema on "a path to failure".

More than 1,300 people across five states were killed by the storm last August. Hundreds of thousands of people were displaced in its aftermath.

"There was a cultural clash which didn't recognise the absolute inherent science of preparing for disaster, responding to it, mitigating against future disasters and recovering from disaster"

Michael Brown

Mr Brown resigned as Fema chief in mid-September amid mounting criticism of the sluggishness of the disaster response.

His testimony came as a report in the New York Times, citing details of a Congressional investigation, said that an eyewitness account of the flooding from a federal emergency official reached the DHS headquarters at 9.27pm on 29 August, and the White House by midnight.

Again, a federal miscue.

This topic is not about Governor Blanco, nor the use of school buses. This is about President Bush lying to Americans. Why do you absolve Bush of his irresponsibility in this matter by attacking others?

BTW, in regards to your 3 hour delay story:

Row rages over Katrina response (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4702090.stm)

Former Fema chief Michael Brown said officials knew levees were breached in New Orleans much earlier than admitted but did not act swiftly enough.

Mr Brown criticised the Department of Homeland Security, which controls the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

He said DHS policies had put Fema on "a path to failure".

More than 1,300 people across five states were killed by the storm last August. Hundreds of thousands of people were displaced in its aftermath.

"There was a cultural clash which didn't recognise the absolute inherent science of preparing for disaster, responding to it, mitigating against future disasters and recovering from disaster"

Michael Brown

Mr Brown resigned as Fema chief in mid-September amid mounting criticism of the sluggishness of the disaster response.

His testimony came as a report in the New York Times, citing details of a Congressional investigation, said that an eyewitness account of the flooding from a federal emergency official reached the DHS headquarters at 9.27pm on 29 August, and the White House by midnight.

Again, a federal miscue.

Because liberals like you just hate Bush and blame him for everthing and anything. Yeah the national goverment was sluggish but the state and local goverment Louisiana example did little or nothing to assist. After all has the city of New Orleans been warned for 30 years to strengthen the levees and they did nothing. The state and local goverment has just as much if not more responsibility as the national goverment. We in Florida got slammed with 4 hurricanes and we handled it pretty well it must say something about competent leadership in this state.
Bush was told that the possibility of the levees over flowing not breaching.Those are two distinct and very different things. And the fact that Bush told people to get to better ground and the local and state goverment did nothing to help those who could not get out is another reason.

Because liberals like you just hate Bush and blame him for everthing and anything.
Me being a liberal has nothing to do with the failure of your President to tell the truth. BTW, I do not hate Bush. The word is much too strong. Dislike yes.

Yeah the national goverment was sluggish but the state and local goverment Louisiana example did little or nothing to assist.
That is not true. The Governor declared a state of emergency two days before Katrina's landfall and the city was in the process of evacuating.

After all has the city of New Orleans been warned for 30 years to strengthen the levees and they did nothing.
You do realize that Bush slashed federal funding for the levees?

Bush Cut Funding (http://www.factcheck.org/article344.html)

The state and local goverment has just as much if not more responsibility as the national goverment. We in Florida got slammed with 4 hurricanes and we handled it pretty well it must say something about competent leadership in this state.
Florida = / = Louisiana

Bush was told that the possibility of the levees over flowing not breaching.Those are two distinct and very different things. And the fact that Bush told people to get to better ground and the local and state goverment did nothing to help those who could not get out is another reason.
You are fabricating the "facts" that you would like to believe are true but your "facts" don't jive with the video.

The state and local goverment has just as much if not more responsibility as the national goverment. We in Florida got slammed with 4 hurricanes and we handled it pretty well it must say something ...
Yeah, that Florida gets hit with alot of hurricanes and isn't below sea level.

It might snow on one day in Alabama once a year but it snows alot in Minnesota, and when it snows there, it fucking snows. Alabama people freak the hell out and try to buy out Wal-mart; Minnesota people go driving just for the hell of it. You know what that says? Alabama isn't used to snow.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4765058.stm


So, once again, Bush manages to weasel his way out by having a subordinate take the blame. Certainly appears that way. Brown was made a scapegoat.
Let's just wait for the beafening silence on US media's part over this. No doubt the first excuse to be trotted out will be 'That was 4 months ago! It's old news. Time to move on'.

There is this thing called "weather forecasting". It's this wonderful thing on the télé that allows one to "see into the future". Most people knew about the hurricane because it got relentless coverage. Of course, Bush doesn't watch the news...

EDIT: I agree with you, by the way. Bush is a corrupt, not to mention obscenely inept, sad excuse for a person.

Ah a finely tuned left-0wing nut, just lovely. Didnt you notice that the ones in charge of the state were Liberal and democrat? Oh yes you forgot that didnt you, "oh so intellectual one". :rolleyes:

No, I said right in my post that you quoted that there was enough blame to go around for ALL LEVELS of government. Didn't you see it? Did you ignore it? WTF is wrong with you? Also, explain to me how Nagin, a lifelong Republican until he switched right before his mayoral campaign, is a Liberal Democrat? Are you even able to grasp the concept that liberal and Democrat are NOT synonymous? Probably not.

You do realize that its the STATE leaders that are ultimately are the ones in charge of the situation down there with disasters right?

They're ultimately in charge and responsible until the scope of the diaster overwhelms them...which is exactly why FEMA was formed.

Didnt think you would be smart enough for that, so i told ya. And if anyone likes to think that just because Bush was supposely suprised that the levees didnt hold, well so was everyone else. ;) :rolleyes:

God, how do you ignore plain facts that show that you are completely full of it. THERE'S VIDEOTAPE OF BUSH BEING WARNED BEFORE THE FACT.

Fuck.

You win with National Guard. But what kind of alert? Evacuation was already "mandatory". I'm not sure what else there is after that...
This may have been stated already (i haven't read the whole thread) but please get a clue instead of getting an idea of how things work through the movies. The president is not in charge of the national guard - the national guard is a STATE military and must be activated by the state's governor or the governor must allow the the state's national guard to be federalized (each state has it's own national guard which the governor of the state controls). The only way Bush could have told the national guard to do anything is by first asking the Louisiana governor to put them under federal control. Blanco, when requested to federalize the national guard, refused that request. Bush had no authority to do anything with the louisiana national guard.

I really wish people would learn how the seperation of state and federal powers works in the us. :roll:

Here is information on the NJ Army National Guard (http://www.state.nj.us/military/army/who.html) along with the Adjutant General (http://www.state.nj.us/military/admin/tag.html)

This may have been stated already (i haven't read the whole thread) but please get a clue instead of getting an idea of how things work through the movies. The president is not in charge of the national guard - the national guard is a STATE military and must be activated by the state's governor or the governor must allow the the state's national guard to be federalized (each state has it's own national guard which the governor of the state controls). The only way Bush could have told the national guard to do anything is by first asking the Louisiana governor to put them under federal control. Blanco, when requested to federalize the national guard, refused that request. Bush had no authority to do anything with the louisiana national guard.

I really wish people would learn how the seperation of state and federal powers works in the us. :roll:


Here is information on the NJ Army National Guard (http://www.state.nj.us/military/army/who.html) along with the Adjutant General (http://www.state.nj.us/military/admin/tag.html)


Wonderful point. You deserve a cookie. This should end the argument, though I'm not holding my breath either. Most libs are not interested in hearing anything but a recognition that their mud-slinging antics are anything but justified, no matter how groundless the accusations may be.

Wonderful point. You deserve a cookie. This should end the argument, though I'm not holding my breath either. Most libs are not interested in hearing anything but a recognition that their mud-slinging antics are anything but justified, no matter how groundless the accusations may be.

This would end the argument...If the Argument had anything to do with who controls the national guard members who are still in the country.

But it's not. It's about Bush being a liar about what he had just been briefed on. End of story.

All the subject changing in the world wen't change that fact.

Bush is a retard, actually a retard could do a better job running the nation.

He is warned that the hurricane might breach the levees, and later states that 'No one could have anticipated that'.

This would end the argument...If the Argument had anything to do with who controls the national guard members who are still in the country.

But it's not. It's about Bush being a liar about what he had just been briefed on. End of story.

All the subject changing in the world wen't change that fact.
26th day of August, 2005

SECTION 1: Pursuant to the Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act, R.S. 29:721, et seq., a state of emergency is declared to exist in the state of Louisiana as Hurricane Katrina poses an imminent threat, carrying severe storms, high winds, and torrential rain that may cause flooding and damage to private property and public facilities, and threaten the safety and security of the citizens of the state of Louisiana;

SECTION 2: The state of Louisiana's emergency response and recovery program is activated under the command of the director of the state office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness to prepare for and provide emergency support services and/or to minimize the effects of the storm=s damage.

Sunday, August 28

AFTERNOON — BUSH, BROWN, CHERTOFF WARNED OF LEVEE FAILURE BY NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER DIRECTOR: Dr. Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center: “‘We were briefing them way before landfall. … It’s not like this was a surprise. We had in the advisories that the levee could be topped.’”

Monday, August 29

MORNING – BUSH SHARES BIRTHDAY CAKE PHOTO-OP WITH SEN. JOHN MCCAIN

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-images/upload/thumb-cakeb.jpg

Let them eat cake?

Again, where are the WMDs? Obviously the intelligence was wrong, then, or we severely underestimated the Iraqis. And please, show me a news source where someone says that we have intelligence stating that Iraq is a threat.

I guess someone didn't listen to President Bill Clinton throughout the '90s nor remembers Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

Yes, it's true that other cities have been hit harder, but where was all the media based when the storm hit? New Orleans.

Yes they did. Guess what? It made alot of people very upset that they were only focused on one city. Hence why I watched the Weather Channel because they broadcasted from the entire disaster zone from N.O. all the way to Florida.

That's partially why everyone automatically thinks of New Orleans when they think of Katrina. It's the same mentality as 9-11: We all remember the planes hitting the Towers because most of the media is based out of New York City.

Well that was where most of the people were killed so that isn't a big surprise.

As for why people are freaking out about New Orleans being ruined by Katrina, you should also keep in mind it's also one of America's oldest cities, and a historical and cultural center. If the state of Pennsylvania were to explode tomorrow, people would be more concerned with the loss of Philadelphia before even thinking about Pittsburgh for the same reasons.

Actually, Pittsburgh would also be remembered too because of its historical significants. As well as Lancaster and Erie for that matter.

Sorry my Corny friend but wrong answer. Still defending Bush at all costs huh?

Blame Blanco (http://www.snopes.com/katrina/politics/blanco.asp)

Governor Blanco asks President to Declare an Emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina (http://www.gov.state.la.us/index.cfm?md=newsroom&tmp=detail&catID=1&articleID=778&navID=3)

Why did she then decide not to allow them in immediately after the storm? WHy did she prevent the Red Cross from going to the Superdome? Why didn't she call up the National Guard before the storm hit?

Why would anyone expect anything from Corneliu after pages of him arguing Bush's innocence vs fucking video tape evidence.

:rolleyes:

Why isn't anyone hammering at the Govenor or at the Mayor when they are more responsible than the President who already stated that what the feds can control screwed up?

I think its completley obvious that Bush DESIGNED hurricane Katrina, he had it constructed out in the ocean under secrecy so it would attack the lower united states to kill thousands of people to prevent them from seceeding into another confederacy again. The evil bastard! just like he desinged the 9/11 attacks so he could expand his executive power, and just like how back in the 70's he, all on his own, invented the AIDS virus and sent it around the world.

He's the worlds greatest villian.....a million times worse than a million Hitlers.

Do you firmly believe this or was this sarcasm?

If anyone in America with their wits about them had any hope left in America, it should be gone now. When you can excuse Bush's response to Katrina and defend him in the face of video evidence, you are truly a hopelessly brainwashed and hopeless individual.

Bush already said that the federal government screwed up. We have a new head of FEMA now because of it.

I still haven't heard much about it at the state and Local level were most of the responsiblity resides.

As I posted earlier, I was in New Orlenas for Ivan in 2004, also a strong 3-4 hurricane.

The local news service in its warning said
"The levee system could be overtopped by the storm surge"


In 2005 the levees along the lake front were overtopped by the surge which was expected, what no one really expected was the complete failure of the canal walls which is what led to the large amount of flooding as even at a normal time the level of the water in the canals is still above the ground level in large sections of NO, with wall failure the water poured in.

As for the people who were killed, a fair percentage still had their cars PARKED outside their houses when the flooding started

Katrina was a f*** up by the mayor:mad: , by the state governor:mad: and by the federal agencies:mad:

Dont let your hate of Bush blind you to what else went wrong and who was responsible:headbang:

Well said. Well said indeed. Everyone is at fault here.

I don't hate Bush. Why do you support his obvious lie?

I'll call ya a liar. You do hate Bush.

Your response makes you look downright ignorant. 36 hours before Hurricane Katrina hit Landfall the Governor's of Lousiana and Mississippi declared a State of Emergency and requested troops from the national guard. This letter is available in pdf form. It clearly states that there is a state of emergency and makes request for funds and equptment to start flowing immediately. And yes, it is right to bash someone when they completely screw the pooch on most everything I do. You want me to stop bashing, tell him to get more God damned competent at his job.

Request Troops? They can order troops. State Governors do not have to reguest troops from the National Guard since they are already under State Control.

As to completely screwing the pooch, why isn't anyone going after the friggin mayor and governor? All I'm seeing is attacks on Bush and Mr. Brown. Where are the attacks on Nagin and the LA governor?

Oh, I don't know. FEMA worked pretty well when James Lee Witt was in charge of it. You know--during the Clinton administration. At least when Clinton appointed his buddies, they knew their effing jobs.

For once, I'll agree with you.

*snip*

I already know about the state of emergency. However what you seem to keep forgetting is that the Federal Government can't do much till after the disaster hits. They can prepare all they like but until it actually hits, the federal government is powerless.

That is where the State, County, and Local governments come in. They are the ones that issue the evac orders and makes sure they are followed. They shouldn't wait till the last minute, as was the case in N.O., to issue it.

Mississippi had the evac orders out long before the storm hit. For some reason, there was no breakdown in Mississippi. Or in Alabama for that matter. Why is it that it was only Louisiana that had a break down?

The National Guard is also state controled. The Governor can call them out whenever a disaster strikes. They had the troops to assist in the evacuation but they weren't used. NO had the busses to evac the entire city but they were not used. Why is it that N.O. did not follow their own Evac procedures?

Did the Federal Government screw up? yes they did. They even admitted they did screw up. Yes they should've moved faster. Its nice that we can look back on it in 20/20 hindsight.

What I have to ask though is why Louisiana had as much troubles that they did when no other state in the affected area had the same trouble.

The Federal Government just cannot go into a state and take over. If they did, we all be screaming that they are overstepping their bounds. The states are responsible for disaster preparedness and the Federal Government is there to assist after the disaster hit. That is how things work.

In short, ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT SCREWED UP!!!!

If they really think that, then perhaps they should think about the anchor that Bush threw to Brownie as he was going down?

Question? Why haven't the major news outlets in the US run with this story?

Because it really is a non-issue and we have more important issues to deal with.

"Bush knew about Katrina" wow, isn't that just amazing. The whole country knew about katrina. It called, "the weather"
The real question is, have we sunk so low as individuals that we need the president to tell us what to do and when to do it for everything? You live in a coastal city that is below the water level, you know there is a hurricane coming, so, of course you wait for the president, who is thousands of miles away, to tell you to maybe go somewhere else for a few days, instead of thinking for yourselves. seriously, take some responsibility.

Not me! If I lived in a Hurricane prone area and a storm is heading my way, I'd run for the hills instead of riding it out.

greatest president ever

I wouldn't go that far.

President bush is the most Corrupt president in history
That tape shows he is a racist fool

Actually, it was President Wilson who was the racist fool. As far as I can see, I haven't seen anything from Bush for him to be called a racist.

As to being corrupt, name me a politician who isnt?

:rolleyes:

Why isn't anyone hammering at the Govenor or at the Mayor when they are more responsible than the President who already stated that what the feds can control screwed up?

Because they aren't MY Governor nor MY Mayor, but Bush is MY President. Also the failings of the Mayor or the Governor do not excuse the incompetence and mendacity of the President.

Why did she then decide not to allow them in immediately after the storm? WHy did she prevent the Red Cross from going to the Superdome? Why didn't she call up the National Guard before the storm hit?

It's already been covered in the thread. Try...I don't know...actually reading people's responses.

Not me! If I lived in a Hurricane prone area and a storm is heading my way, I'd run for the hills instead of riding it out.

No, knowing you Corny, you'd say "But we don't know enough about the weather to predict it! Screw what those scientists say. What do they know?"

No, knowing you Corny, you'd say "But we don't know enough about the weather to predict it! Screw what those scientists say. What do they know?"

:rolleyes:

I'll call ya a liar. You do hate Bush.
You are calling me a liar? I have never once stated that I hate Bush. I have stated on many occaisions that I dislike the man, but hate is too strong of a word. You cannot point to one quote of mine that states that I hate Bush and I think you are a twit for making that suggestion and calling me a liar to boot.

I dislike his policies. I dislike his principles. I dislike his politics.

I dislike the fact that his policies have resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people.

I have been reading your responses in this thread and you want to keep making apologies for your beloved Bush, by blaming others but the fact remains that in regards to this thread and the subject of Katrina, he has been caught in yet another lie.

You are calling me a liar? I have never once stated that I hate Bush. I have stated on many occaisions that I dislike the man, but hate is too strong of a word. You cannot point to one quote of mine that states that I hate Bush and I think you are a twit for making that suggestion and calling me a liar to boot.

I dislike his policies. I dislike his principles. I dislike his politics.

I dislike the fact that his policies have resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people.

I have been reading your responses in this thread and you want to keep making apologies for your beloved Bush, by blaming others but the fact remains that in regards to this thread and the subject of Katrina, he has been caught in yet another lie.

I make no apologies about Bush's policies. SOme of them I do agree with and others I don't.

As to the levees themselves, it was said they COULD.. Repeat COULD break. However no one thought that they would break.

As stated previously in this thread I believe, everyone expected the water to go over the levees, which is exactly what happened.

As to cutting the budget for the levees, this has been going on for quite sometime. I have to wonder why the LA Senators managed to get 14 Million for some unnecessary research instead of the money going to the levees in the first place.

Also, why didn't the state of Louisiana do anything about shoring up the levees?

No one expected them to actually break. Everyone thought that the water would go over the levees. It could yes that was what this was saying that the levees COULD BREAK!!!

As to the levees themselves, it was said they COULD.. Repeat COULD break. However no one thought that they would break.

And it's that attitude that would probably have caused you to stay if YOU lived in New Orleans.

As stated previously in this thread I believe, everyone expected the water to go over the levees, which is exactly what happened.

As to cutting the budget for the levees, this has been going on for quite sometime. I have to wonder why the LA Senators managed to get 14 Million for some unnecessary research instead of the money going to the levees in the first place.

Also, why didn't the state of Louisiana do anything about shoring up the levees?

No one expected them to actually break. Everyone thought that the water would go over the levees. It could yes that was what this was saying that the levees COULD BREAK!!!

B.S. The Army Corps of Engineers had, FOR YEARS, predicted that the levees could break if a big enough storm hit. Hell, and read this very carefully Corny, They were only built to withstand a category 3 hurricane. Therefore, it doesn't take a scientist or even a terribly smart person to recognize that A Category 4 hurricane could smash them.

Right? I mean, there's really no other information needed. Built for Cat 3. Degrades over time. Warned that a strong Cat 3 could now topple them. Katrina was either a strong cat 3 (at landfall,) or a 4, depending on the report. But the storm swell accompanying it was still at strengths that a Cat 5 could muster.

So, even when The goddam levees were made, people knew that a Cat 4 could breach them. People knew from the very moment that they were made that a hurricane exactly like Katrina could screw the levees up.

Not only did Bush lie, he made a feeble and stupid lie...the kind of lie one only makes if one never expects to get called on it.

And it's that attitude that would probably have caused you to stay if YOU lived in New Orleans.

I know the power of a hurricane. Never experienced one myself but my mother has. Not just hurricanes but Typhoons too. I would flee from a hurricane even if it was a category 1.

B.S. The Army Corps of Engineers had, FOR YEARS, predicted that the levees could break if a big enough storm hit.

Yes they did. Long before Bush took office but nothing was ever done.

Hell, and read this very carefully Corny, They were only built to withstand a category 3 hurricane. Therefore, it doesn't take a scientist or even a terribly smart person to recognize that A Category 4 hurricane could smash them.

Now that I can actually read it....

Yes you are right in what you said however, it doesn't detract from the fact that everyone said that they could break. You see, we are all jumping on things here without actually listening. No one said that they would break if a massive hurricane hit N.O. only that they could. Yes they were built to withstand a Category 3 storm. They didn't know if it could withstand a Category 4 hurricane. Considering that only 2 of the levees broke shows that yes they could withstand a Category 4 Hurricane. Most of the water flowed over the other levees but it was just those 2 levees that caused most of the devestation.

Right? I mean, there's really no other information needed. Built for Cat 3. Degrades over time. Warned that a strong Cat 3 could now topple them. Katrina was either a strong cat 3 (at landfall,) or a 4, depending on the report. But the storm swell accompanying it was still at strengths that a Cat 5 could muster.

Category 3 winds but Category 4 pressure. So officially, it was a Category 3 hurricane but thanks to the Pressure, it made it worse.

So, even when The goddam levees were made, people knew that a Cat 4 could breach them. People knew from the very moment that they were made that a hurricane exactly like Katrina could screw the levees up.

Which is why over the course of the years, efforts were made to made them stronger as well as put in flood gates. The flood gates mind you, that could've helped in saving the city from the damage it suffered from Katrina but were not built because they were stopped by the environmentalists. Now there are flood gates being installed.

Yes they did. Long before Bush took office but nothing was ever done.
Class A point/fact deflection skills.

Which is why over the course of the years, efforts were made to made them stronger as well as put in flood gates. The flood gates mind you, that could've helped in saving the city from the damage it suffered from Katrina but were not built because they were stopped by the environmentalists. Now there are flood gates being installed.

Environmentalists also suggested restoring the wetlands, which would have majorly dampened the force of the swell.

See, the problem is when people only listen to half of what the "environmentalists," say nothing gets done. People, because of lawsuits, political pressure or whatnot, stop what they're doing because of the environmentalists...but then they don't take the environmentalists up on their alternate plans...and then finally they blame the environmentalists for nothing getting done.

Deflection and dereliction of duty. Thanks for continuing it. :rolleyes:

Environmentalists also suggested restoring the wetlands, which would have majorly dampened the force of the swell.

That would've helped too to tell the truth.

See, the problem is when people only listen to half of what the "environmentalists," say nothing gets done.

Again, I'll agree with you here.

People, because of lawsuits, political pressure or whatnot, stop what they're doing because of the environmentalists...but then they don't take the environmentalists up on their alternate plans...and then finally they blame the environmentalists for nothing getting done.

I'll agree with you for a third time.

Deflection and dereliction of duty. Thanks for continuing it. :rolleyes:

Here, I'll disagree with you.

That would've helped too to tell the truth.



Again, I'll agree with you here.



I'll agree with you for a third time.



Here, I'll disagree with you.

That might be your most fair post ever, Corny, and I can't blame you one bit for disagreeing with my caustic comment.

Yes they did. Long before Bush took office but nothing was ever done.

Then why do your fellow liberal radicals keep saying he is at the center of the problem? If it predates him? :confused:

Then why do your fellow liberal radicals keep saying he is at the center of the problem? If it predates him? :confused:

I'm a liberal radical? OMG!!! You really are new here aren't you?

*Dies of laughter*

That might be your most fair post ever, Corny, and I can't blame you one bit for disagreeing with my caustic comment.

The truth is the truth. Problem is, there so much half truths out there that debates such as this rage on.

Why blame Bush?

I blame the people who voted for him the second time around.

Did most people REALLY vote for him?:sniper:

Did most people REALLY vote for him?:sniper:

Yes they did and got over 50% of the national vote too. The last president to do that was George Bush Sr in 1988.

B.S. The Army Corps of Engineers had, FOR YEARS, predicted that the levees could break if a big enough storm hit.

Yes they did. Long before Bush took office but nothing was ever done.
There ya go again, making apologies for Bush and trying to blame the previous administrations. Not only making apologies but misrepresenting the facts. Bush actually did do something.....he slashed funding for the levees.

I posted this before, but obviously you didn't bother to read it or you wouldn't have made the above comment.

Bush Cut Funding (http://www.factcheck.org/article344.html)

A small sample for you:

By 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year…forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze.

I guess dropping bombs on innocent people in Iraq was more important that protecting innocent people in New Orleans? :rolleyes:

There ya go again, making apologies for Bush and trying to blame the previous administrations. Not only making apologies but misrepresenting the facts. Bush actually did do something.....he slashed funding for the levees.

*sighs*

I AM NOT APOLOGIZING FOR THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION! Yes his administration screwed up and by golly he even stated he did. For God's sake actually comprehend what I'm saying.

*sighs*

I AM NOT APOLOGIZING FOR THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION! Yes his administration screwed up and by golly he even stated he did.
The part of this story that you are missing is the fact that he lied!!

For God's sake actually comprehend what I'm saying.
You don't even remember what you typed, which leads me to believe that you don't even comprehend what you are saying:

B.S. The Army Corps of Engineers had, FOR YEARS, predicted that the levees could break if a big enough storm hit.

Yes they did. Long before Bush took office but nothing was ever done.
IF that isn't making excuses for the Bush-ke-bob then I don't know what is.

The part of this story that you are missing is the fact that he lied!![/uote]

About? There is a difference between Could break and would break. he was told they could break but that it wasn't known if they would or not.

[quote]You don't even remember what you typed, which leads me to believe that you don't even comprehend what you are saying:

Don't tell me what I comprehend or don't. I comprehend just fine. I guess it is you that cannot comprehend.

IF that isn't making excuses for the Bush-ke-bob then I don't know what is.

They known about this for DECADES!!!! Everyone is at fault here for what happened. How is that being a Bush apologist?

[QUOTE=CanuckHeaven]The part of this story that you are missing is the fact that he lied!![/uote]

About? There is a difference between Could break and would break. he was told they could break but that it wasn't known if they would or not.



Don't tell me what I comprehend or don't. I comprehend just fine. I guess it is you that cannot comprehend.



They known about this for DECADES!!!! Everyone is at fault here for what happened. How is that being a Bush apologist?

Doesn't change the fact that he lied. So still a Bush apologist.

They known about this for DECADES!!!! Everyone is at fault here for what happened. How is that being a Bush apologist?

You know why everyone before was at fault? Because someone at the time THEY were in charge said, "yeah, but their predecessor didn't do anything."

Since those who came before are no longer in charge, the only people whose toes one can hold to the fire are those currently in charge.

Therefore, it doesn't matter who fucked up in the past. It matters who fucked up at the time everything went down.

Otherwise the person who comes after Bush (and the Mayor and the Governor,) will have no reason to do anything either.

Doesn't change the fact that he lied. So still a Bush apologist.

They said it COULD BREAK!! They DID NOT SAY THAT IT WOULD! For heaven's sake, I would be agreeing with you if they said they would break and he did nothing.

You know why everyone before was at fault? Because someone at the time THEY were in charge said, "yeah, but their predecessor didn't do anything."

Since those who came before are no longer in charge, the only people whose toes one can hold to the fire are those currently in charge.

Therefore, it doesn't matter who fucked up in the past. It matters who fucked up at the time everything went down.

Otherwise the person who comes after Bush (and the Mayor and the Governor,) will have no reason to do anything either.

Precisely however, in order to put everything into perspective, you have to put the whole history into it. That means going back to when they were first built and going forward since. That is the only way to make sure something like this doesn't happen again.

I wonder what they are going to do about NYC. Its almost the time for them to get hit by a hurricane if history is any indication.

Yes they did and got over 50% of the national vote too. The last president to do that was George Bush Sr in 1988.
Bush's wins in 2000 and 2004 were the lowest and third lowest respectively in US history when considering the Electoral College votes. Oh, and the second lowest was Wilson in 1916.

Just thought I would throw that out for you. :D

Even your friend Jimmy Carter fared better.

Bush's wins in 2000 and 2004 were the lowest and third lowest respectively in US history when considering the Electoral College votes. Oh, and the second lowest was Wilson in 1916.

Just thought I would throw that out for you. :D

Even your friend Jimmy Carter fared better.

Clinton, who had a higher rating only got 49% of the general vote. Noticed that I said nothing about the electoral college. As for Carter, he got destroyed in 1980. I wouldn't be using him as an example.

Doesn't change the fact that he lied. So still a Bush apologist.
Yes indeed!! Corny should be able to put B.A. after his name. :)

Yes indeed!! Corny should be able to put B.A. after his name. :)

Nope. I'm going for a Bachelor of Science Degree and not a Bachelor of Arts :D

Nope. I'm going for a Bachelor of Science Degree and not a Bachelor of Arts :D

We always knew you were B.S..

We always knew you were B.S..
pwned!:p

An apropos clip from Keith Olbermann from before the videoed briefings came out.

http://media.putfile.com/OlbermannSwings

An apropos clip from Keith Olbermann from before the videoed briefings came out.

http://media.putfile.com/OlbermannSwings
It is interesting that Olbermann referred to Bush as a 21st century Marie Antoinette, since I used a similar analogy in a previous post:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10524788&postcount=135

Yeah, "let them eat cake".

We always knew you were B.S..

hehe

I'll give you a cookie for that comeback line :D