NationStates Jolt Archive

In light of the responses on my thread, "Bible Questions,"

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=470388&highlight=Bible+Questions

I have decided to start a poll on people's attitudes towards religion. Just answer the poll and explain why you answered.

Can't wait to read your responses!

If they don't bother me, I don't bother them. If they try to push their beliefs, I'll push right back with my infuriating logic. I have no need or desire for confrontation, but I will go on the offensive if challenged.

Er.. Where is this poll of which you speak?

I believe that religion is both a positive and a negative. First the negative. Religion is a man made creation. As a result, any infrastructure that man tries to build will be falliable. It will fall to corruption, faults, and greed. That because it was built and run by man. Now the positive. Religion tend to bring people together that has a common intrest, and they usually encourage people to help out in the community, and to help thy fellow neighbors. Thats my view on it.

In general, I'm indifferent. I have my way and other people have theirs.

Although, on a very interesting note, I was told by one of the elder brothers at the mosque that my take on Islam seems a very Buddhist/Muslim hybrid. Guess those years from 15-27 following the Buddha have shaped my entire spiritual journey.

Fun.

Er.. Where is this poll of which you speak?

Just finished making it. I will not participate in the discussions since this can get very heated.

PLEASE no bashing of other viewpoints, I want this to be a harmless discussion just to see what NSers think about a particular subject.

Thank you.

It can be a rock of certainty, in an uncertain world, where people can gather their strength to do great things. Or, more likely than not, it's an opiate of the masses that fascilitates the abdication of responsibility, the perpetuation of ignorance for the sake of ignorance, and leads people to seek dominion over their fellow man.

To that end, I generally delineate the question in to two catagories. One's own practice of their faith, which is what they make of it. And the practice of religion which is rarely worth anything to anyone. Even when the two are coincident the latter is without value in my mind.

Religion as an expression of love, peace and tolerance is good... no matter what 'flavour'.

Religion as a mechanism of fear, violence and control is bad... no matter what 'flavour'.

Religion can be a very good thing or a very bad thing.

In general, I'm indifferent. I have my way and other people have theirs.

Although, on a very interesting note, I was told by one of the elder brothers at the mosque that my take on Islam seems a very Buddhist/Muslim hybrid. Guess those years from 15-27 following the Buddha have shaped my entire spiritual journey.

Fun.

I always knew that Dune was true. :eek:

I always knew that Dune was true. :eek:

Crap ... do I have to go beat up Sting now?

I chose other, because while religion has no significance FOR me, I can certainly see where it is significant for others, so it has significance TO me in it's effects.

Personally, I am not at all religious. I (like all people whether they admit it or not) do not know whether or not there are supernatural beings that could be called "gods." But I can say with complete certainty that all religions are created by man. This does not in any way make them useless and I believe that as a whole they are not harmful. Religion can help someones individual life by giving them a feeling of purpose, hope, reduction of the fear of death, and a variety of other positive emotions (I can't be certain of what they are since I am not religious). Also religion serves society by bringing a sense of unity, what appears to be an objective morality, and can sometimes justify why some people have more power than others. And religion can answer the question of "why" (the real "why" not "how), which is a completely answerless question which for whatever reason won't go away. The explainatory role of religion (explaining "how") is no longer necessary so many people are moving away from it; those who don't sometimes cause problems (like attempting to block the teaching of evolution) but religion as a whole cannot be condemned for this.

religion is extremely important to me, and not just in a metyphorical, emotioal, or that other thing you said way. I am a VERY strongly believing Christian, and religion almost defines me, haha!

Crap ... do I have to go beat up Sting now?

Well, I believe there is some wandering involved first. And you may, or may not, have to ride a big worm. But I would say yes.

I am a VERY strongly believing Christian, and religion almost defines me, haha!

Now, see ... here is an interesting duality.

Religion does not define me. I define religion.

Well, I believe there is some wandering involved first. And you may, or may not, have to ride a big worm. But I would say yes.

Well, ok ... but only if I get to have quality naked time with Sean Young.

Well, I can't really speak of its metaphysical significance, since I don't really focus on the metaphysical side of religion beyond the general: "God exists, and is all-good."

I can say, however, that religion is a vital institution in the democratic age, purely because whether or not its true, is has the effect of tearing people away from their own lonely existence and brings men into association with each other. In other words, it helps remind people that there are other people in society, that they need other people in society, and that society only works when all people work toward the common good. No other social and civic institution is as good at combatting public indifference and isolation as religion in this respect.

In light of the responses on my thread, "Bible Questions,"

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=470388&highlight=Bible+Questions

I have decided to start a poll on people's attitudes towards religion. Just answer the poll and explain why you answered.

Can't wait to read your responses!
Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they like, whether rational, reasonable, or totally off the wall. At a personal level, I don't like organized religion and will probably never be involved in it again, God willing. :D

Well, ok ... but only if I get to have quality naked time with Sean Young.
"Sean Young?" :eek:

We need to talk about your taste in women, young dweeb! :D

I don't mind religion, as long as they keep their dirty beliefs off of me. Then there's a problem

"Sean Young?" :eek:

We need to talk about your taste in women, young dweeb! :D

What's wrong with Sean Young?

http://www.born-today.com/Today/pix/young_sean.jpg

Hot!

"Sean Young?" :eek:

We need to talk about your taste in women, young dweeb! :D

Maybe he's just a fan of "Stripes" or "Blade Runner". . .

I'll agree that I can think of prettier women now, though.

What's wrong with Sean Young?

http://www.born-today.com/Today/pix/young_sean.jpg

Hot!
Emaciated!

I picked "other" because although religion has significance both for me (my religion) and to me (other people's religions), I have problems with the way the options are worded. How much is "a lot" of significance? "Significant" to whom -- the individual believer or society? By "religion" do you mean spiritual beliefs/philosophies or rules and rituals promulgated by and practiced within groups/churches?

I am a religious person, but I despise organized religion as a plague on society [edit] the sole purpose of which is to sell membership in exclusive/exclusionary clubs. In my opinion, religious belief can benefit individuals, but organized religion has no practical effect other than dividing people against each other.

I am a rationalist and realist. I reject all "just because" arguments and when I have to work without proven facts, I prefer probabilities to faith.

But, personally, I feel a strong instinct towards belief in a spiritual aspect to life. I believe in souls and spirits. My belief is purely intuitive, and I isolated and identified this feeling within myself long before I took up any actual religion. I spent most of my teens and 20s shopping for a religion that would match both my intuitive beliefs and my preference for rationalism. That religion ended up being animism -- you know, souls and spirits, that kind of thing. (The bonus for me on animism is that it is the least organized of all widespread religions.)

My spiritual beliefs are based on intuition, not empirical proofs. I believe them to be true, but I do not know that they are. I must acknowledge that, no matter how strongly I may believe, I do not have and probably never will have a single shred of evidence to back me up or prove even a part of what I believe to anyone else. Therefore, I never, never, NEVER cite my religion as a reason for anyone other than me to do anything or think anything under any circumstances.

My religious beliefs are irrelevant to other people. And other people's religious beliefs are irrelevant to me.

So although I do think religious belief can be significant to people, I resist the efforts of organized religion to make itself significant to me. This means all religions, even my own -- to the extent it is organized, that's the extent to which I'm non-observant.

Other--while I don't have a religion, I'm still an agnostic. I don't KNOW if there is anything or not out there. Science can't prove one way or another (then again science has it's own breakdowns and can be used to invalidate itself).

Also, religion does affect me because it affects the world around me. Religion is used as a reason for many good and bad acts in the world--definitely has an effect.

I picked "other" because although religion has significance both for me (my religion) and to me (other people's religions), I have problems with the way the options are worded. How much is "a lot" of significance? "Significant" to whom -- the individual believer or society? By "religion" do you mean spiritual beliefs/philosophies or rules and rituals promulgated by and practiced within groups/churches?

I meant either or both, so as to give respondents room to specify.

My faith is the central point of my life.

I love God dearly. Other Christians sometimes annoy me, bless their hearts. When will they get it through their heads that God does not want people coming to Him at gunpoint? :rolleyes:

It doesn't have the least significance for me.
Actually, I think it does much more harm than good, so we would probably be much better off without religion.

I'm not entirely sure I understood the poll - but that has never kept me from voting before, so why start now? :D

I voted for "has much siginificance in an anthropological sense", seeing as how much cultures and human behaviour are to a large part controlled by what I personally think is a construct we have come up with to make sense of the world(s) we live in.

Personally, I'd say I'm an agnostic, so I'd have to vote for "doesn't have any significance to me."

I very quickly get uncomfortable with people who are "too" religious. I can't stand any proselytizing, and I'm generally kind of squeamish around people who are really religious. With fanatics, that's pretty self-explanatory, but even with people who simply have a very strong faith yet keep quiet about it, I'm kind of left speechless. I can't help but always be a bit worried about their mental health - which is an awful thing to say, I know, and which is why I usually never say it. Apologies all around, just in case.

I meant either or both, so as to give respondents room to specify.
Cool. I wonder how many posters will be clear about how they mean it, though. I mean, I wonder how many will get the difference. I find that a lot of [religious text of choice]-thumpers see no separation between what they believe and what others believe. Those who seek to convert others seem to think they have some stake in what's going on inside my head. I would be interested (obviously) to know how many religious people are like that and how many really can live and let live. I suspect the aggressive proselytizing types are a smaller minority than it seems nowadays.

Religion has inspired some great artwork and such, but it has also done a lot of bad. The pointless and devastating wars, the self-destructive values, and the mind control have all done great damage.

I'm not entirely sure I understood the poll - but that has never kept me from voting before, so why start now? :D

I voted for "has much siginificance in an anthropological sense", seeing as how much cultures and human behaviour are to a large part controlled by what I personally think is a construct we have come up with to make sense of the world(s) we live in.

Personally, I'd say I'm an agnostic, so I'd have to vote for "doesn't have any significance to me."

I very quickly get uncomfortable with people who are "too" religious. I can't stand any proselytizing, and I'm generally kind of squeamish around people who are really religious. With fanatics, that's pretty self-explanatory, but even with people who simply have a very strong faith yet keep quiet about it, I'm kind of left speechless. I can't help but always be a bit worried about their mental health - which is an awful thing to say, I know, and which is why I usually never say it. Apologies all around, just in case.
I tend to think of religion as being like sex. I assume that the people I'm talking to have sex lives, but that would only make me uncomfortable if they took it on themselves to tell me all about their personal fetishes and how they go about it. I'm not their lover, so I really don't need to know that stuff. Same if I'm not a member of their church. I just so don't care.

I tend to think of religion as being like sex. I assume that the people I'm talking to have sex lives, but that would only make me uncomfortable if they took it on themselves to tell me all about their personal fetishes and how they go about it. I'm not their lover, so I really don't need to know that stuff. Same if I'm not a member of their church. I just so don't care.
You know, that's actually a pretty good analogy. It really grasps the kind of acute embarrassment I feel when somebody makes me see what I feel should be their entirely private matter - all I can think is "Um, oh-kay?". That's what I meant by "it leaves me speechless" in my post above.

I very quickly get uncomfortable with people who are "too" religious. I can't stand any proselytizing, and I'm generally kind of squeamish around people who are really religious. With fanatics, that's pretty self-explanatory, but even with people who simply have a very strong faith yet keep quiet about it, I'm kind of left speechless. I can't help but always be a bit worried about their mental health - which is an awful thing to say, I know, and which is why I usually never say it. Apologies all around, just in case.

LOL! Well, I'm one of those people who tend to keep quiet about it unless asked (like in this thread). Because I have strong feelings about my faith, I assume others have equally strong feelings about something in their lives. I would not want them pressuring me to live my life in a different way. I try to extend the same courtesy.

My mental health is just fine. Thanks. :D

Religion is the destructive power of ignorance held by large groups.

You know, that's actually a pretty good analogy. It really grasps the kind of acute embarrassment I feel when somebody makes me see what I feel should be their entirely private matter - all I can think is "Um, oh-kay?". That's what I meant by "it leaves me speechless" in my post above.
There are some people who you just can't avoid that information with. We know all about the religious practices of the Pope and Dalai Lama, possibly for the exact same reason we know all about the sex life of Heidi Fleiss. Doing that in public is pretty much their job, so if they're in the news, that's going to be there with them. But I don't spend time visiting their websites. Likewise, this thread requires people to talk about a private matter, so if we're participating, we're just going to have to deal with the embarrassment.

But on the other hand, I don't hang out with monks and nuns, pretty much for the same reason I don't hang out with prostitutes. And before the religious moralists in the crowd get upset, *my* religion places no moral judgments on consensual sex. A whore is just as good a person as a nun, imo. (Hope that's not too personal a revelation. ;) ) But I think being open about that kind of thing needs to be reciprocal and if it's not, then everyone should just keep it to themselves.

For instance, I have these Wiccan friends. I'm not a Wiccan, and I don't care about it, although I do know about it. But if I talk to them around any Wiccan holiday, I'm going to hear a mini-lecture on what their rituals are (mostly because they never clean up their house and feel they have to explain all the paraphernalia lying about, even if I didn't ask). But the first time they came to my house, knowing that I'm an animist because someone told them once, and saw the spirit shrine in my entranceway, they never even mentioned it. I was half relieved because I didn't want to give an animism lecture and half offended because they assumed I would want to know all about their beliefs but didn't feel the need to return the compliment.

In the end, I settled on just being relieved because my beliefs are none of their business. But I couldn't help being bothered by the implied dis.

Ban all religons!


Burn all non-heretics. It would be payback for all the crimes they commited in the past.



Against All Gods

religion is the most powerful cultural force in human history. it has influenced our morals, our politics and more recently our entertainment (censorship) and other things besides. having said that, i'm an atheist and i wish it hadn't :p. these things may have been the same now without religion but as it is they have all developed in the framework of religion so they have inevitably been influenced by it.

ALL organized religions are false.

False Gods.

Now, see ... here is an interesting duality.

Religion does not define me. I define religion.
To an extent, I agree. You can define your beliefs in such a way as they can be whatever you want them to be, and in that respect you can name them as you please. What everyone else says, thinks or does doesn't necessarily result in a change of your ideas, thoughts or feelings. This is how most people see religion; as an idea within each individual.

However, that being the case, why do you then choose to give it a name based on a particular social construct? Is there any particular reason you call yourself a Muslim? Or, for that matter, is there any particular reason someone who doesn't believe in God calls himself an Agnostic or Atheist?

Such labels; aren't they just social identification?

Ban all religons!

Burn all non-heretics. It would be payback for all the crimes they commited in the past.


Against All Gods
So, in other words, your attitude towards religion, per the OP, is to meet all crime with an equal or greater amount of crime?

Benign indifference generally.

Voted "Other". Answers 2, 3, and 4 are all correct.

Not religious at all, but I'm more than happy to live and let live.

Contempt, disdain and the occasional moment of real fury (this bullshit in Dakota has conjured one up) tend to be my attitudes towards Religion.

Arrogant disdain, intellectual disdain and contemptuous disdain will suffice. I elect to use one as appropriate.

Religion is mans attempt to contemplate the untenable. Why and how? Infinity is quite beyond us as a graspable concept, so instead of being frightened or depressed we choose define our finite lives in an infinite setting. We die here, but some undefinable core of ourselves will go on to meet the ultimate being or join the universal singularity. This is mainly the draw of religion...the rules are the bitch of the matter. Religion's chief folly, i.m.o, (even Buddhism with it's medium path is guilty of this) is it's attempt to govern moral truth in an infinite setting. Take the Christians, (they tend to be the guys that show up on my doorstep on Saturdays, so they're getting the brunt of it) their ten commandments are essentially your contract to get into eternal paradise. Do this and you will be rewarded. The text they refer to for spiritual guidance is a conglomeration of folk lore and very oblique history written in an era where women were still stoned to death. If there is one everchanging concept it's that of good and bad and to put such a price on good and bad as eternal bliss or eternal suffering and not open the text to change as it travels through time is the worst sort of irresponsible behavior imaginable. For the most part these obscure local oriented ethics are ignored in the more Judeo/Christian 1st world cultures (leaving considerable debate open for just what is the purpose of those religious texts if the people of the era pick and choose what to adhere to and what to ignore) but as you head into the third world were the women must still cover their faces and their clitoris are removed, vaginal openings sewed shut and you have religious and cultural practices that go against everything the world has learned but are still in use because of some misguided loyalty to an outdated prospect of eternal paradise. Ethical judgement is ever changing from situation to situation. It's was morally acceptable for the Eskimo peoples to commit infantcide when left with too many female mouths to feed so they would leave the newborn to the snow and move on. This is obviously distasteful in our paradigm, but to them it was a matter of survival. Either they have an acceptable hunter to female ratio or they all starved to death. To take morality from a text, accept it at face value without some sort of contemplation and reflection and base your life and actions on it makes you no better and no worse than your average Nazi following orders to gas the Jews.
Religion is also the singlemost evil fulcrum on which wars hinge. When atrocity after atrocity is heaped on an opposing group the morality of the action is thrown completely out of the window through the mob mentality and cultural conditioning. They're not people, they're Muslims. Lets invade and recapture Jerusalem. The Holy Crusades (capped by Christians killing Christians when refused food and shelter by Constantinople), Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch Burnings, WWII, ethnic cleansings in Africa and Southwest Asia all stem from the singular evil of religion. And why shouldn't it when you place eternal life or death on a belief and someone comes along and pisses in your Wheaties with their belief?
For arguments sake lets say there is a single pervading force in the Universe that happened to make man in a dingy corner of some Galaxy in the great black, he gave you brains for a reason. Figure out EVERYTHING on your own. Don't base any metaphisical or moral choice on something you learned from another (baring children who must borrow ethics to survive until adulthood) but instead put those little powers of observation to work, be brave and step out on your own and say "It might be fucked up, but thats what I came up with." If every white man you ever met was a bigot and tried to beat you with a maple stick then I couldn't fault you for a racist perspective but don't set it in stone...like all tall buildings, belief's gotta bend and flex and parts are gonna wear out and need replacing or it's gonna topple. All great men rejected or changed some societal norm or another.
For the ignorant and lazy religion is a quick fix to coming to a moral solution to any dilema. For the most part priests and rabbi's aren't going to say "Well...shoot the fucker and burn the body" it will be a sensible solution with a religious overtone (though the whole confession thing is a complete atrocity...free absolution for wrongs from people you didn't wrong against...removes guilt). That's not to say that all people who embrace religion are ignorant and lazy...so don't flame me...but thats the raw truth of the matter and the only point I'll give it on the good side. It keeps morons relatively good.
So...be forcefed possible wrong, or learn right on your own.
My soapbox broke...be back after I fix it.

Having grown up in the Bible Belt in an atheist household, religion has fairly negative connotations for me. I've had it shoved down my throat by intolerant bigots my whole life. Only as an have I met Christians who are open minded and tolerant.
I wish I had a nickel for every time I've been told I'm going to hell. I'd be set for life.

Religion has no significance to me. I'm an Agnostic, and even back when i wasn't, i never believed in organized religion. I don't appreciate being told that my life is empty and meaningless or that i have no morals because i don't believe. I do think though that people have the right to believe in whatever they want as long as they aren't hurting other people. All i ask is that you respect my right not to believe the way i respect your right to believe.

Crap ... do I have to go beat up Sting now?

Nah, but you can come with me and shoot down a few Harkonnen on wormback. :mp5:

Crap ... do I have to go beat up Sting now?
"You WILL kill him!" *you shout, looking wild-eyed at your spectators and family*