NationStates Jolt Archive

I HAVE A PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA
RICHARD D. LAMM

I HAVE A SECRET PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA. IF YOU BELIEVE, AS MANY DO, THAT AMERICA IS TOO SMUG, TOO WHITE BREAD, TOO SELF-SATISFIED, TOO RICH, LETS DESTROY AMERICA. IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO DO. HISTORY SHOWS THAT NATIONS ARE MORE FRAGILE THAN THEIR CITIZENS THINK. NO NATION IN HISTORY HAS SURVIVED THE RAVAGES OF TIME. ARNOLD TOYNBEE OBSERVED THAT ALL GREAT CIVILIZATIONS RISE AND THEY ALL FALL, AND THAT "AN AUTOPSY OF HISTORY WOULD SHOW THAT ALL GREAT NATIONS COMMIT SUICIDE." HERE IS MY PLAN:

I. WE MUST FIRST MAKE AMERICA A BILINGUAL-BICULTURAL COUNTRY. HISTORY SHOWS, IN MY OPINION, THAT NO NATION CAN SURVIVE THE TENSION, CONFLICT, AND ANTAGONISM OF TWO COMPETING LANGUAGES AND CULTURES. IT IS A BLESSING FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO BE BILINGUAL; IT IS A CURSE FOR A SOCIETY TO BE BILINGUAL. ONE SCHOLAR, SEYMOUR MARTIN LIPSET, PUT IT THIS WAY:

THE HISTORIES OF BILINGUAL AND BICULTURAL SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT ASSIMILATE ARE HISTORIES OF TURMOIL, TENSION, AND TRAGEDY. CANADA, BELGIUM, MALAYSIA, LEBANON-ALL FACE CRISES OF NATIONAL EXISTENCE IN WHICH MINORITIES PRESS FOR AUTONOMY, IF NOT INDEPENDENCE. PAKISTAN AND CYPRUS HAVE DIVIDED. NIGERIA SUPPRESSED AN ETHNIC REBELLION. FRANCE FACES DIFFICULTIES WITH ITS BASQUES, BRETONS, AND CORSICANS.
II. I WOULD THEN INVENT "MULTICULTURALISM" AND ENCOURAGE IMMIGRANTS TO MAINTAIN THEIR OWN CULTURE. I WOULD MAKE IT AN ARTICLE OF BELIEF THAT ALL CULTURES ARE EQUAL: THAT THERE ARE NO CULTURAL DIFFERENCES THAT ARE IMPORTANT. I WOULD DECLARE IT AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT THE BLACK AND HISPANIC DROPOUT RATE IS ONLY DUE TO PREJUDICE AND DISCRIMINATION BY THE MAJORITY. EVERY OTHER EXPLANATION IS OUT-OF-BOUNDS.

III. WE CAN MAKE THE UNITED STATES A "HISPANIC QUEBEC" WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT. THE KEY IS TO CELEBRATE DIVERSITY RATHER THAN UNITY. AS BENJAMIN SCHWARZ SAID IN THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY RECENTLY:
...THE APPARENT SUCCESS OF OUR OWN MULTIETHNIC AND MULTICULTURAL EXPERIMENT MIGHT HAVE BEEN ACHIEVED NOT BY TOLERANCE BUT BY HEGEMONY. WITHOUT THE DOMINANCE THAT ONCE DICTATED ETHNOCENTRICALLY, AND WHAT IT MEANT TO BE AN AMERICAN, WE ARE LEFT WITH ONLY TOLERANCE AND PLURALISM TO HOLD US TOGETHER.
I WOULD ENCOURAGE ALL IMMIGRANTS TO KEEP THEIR OWN LANGUAGE AND CULTURE. I WOULD REPLACE THE MELTING POT METAPHOR WITH A SALAD BOWL METAPHOR. IT IS IMPORTANT TO INSURE THAT WE HAVE VARIOUS CULTURAL SUB-GROUPS LIVING IN AMERICA REINFORCING THEIR DIFFERENCES RATHER THAN AMERICANS, EMPHASIZING THEIR SIMILARITIES.

IV. HAVING DONE ALL THIS, I WOULD MAKE OUR FASTEST GROWING DEMOGRAPHIC GROUP THE LEAST EDUCATED - I WOULD ADD A SECOND UNDERCLASS, UNASSIMILATED, UNDEREDUCATED, AND ANTAGONISTIC TO OUR POPULATION. I WOULD HAVE THIS SECOND UNDERCLASS HAVE A 50% DROP OUT RATE FROM SCHOOL.

V. I WOULD THEN GET THE BIG FOUNDATIONS AND BIG BUSINESS TO GIVE THESE EFFORTS LOTS OF MONEY. I WOULD INVEST IN ETHNIC IDENTITY, AND I WOULD ESTABLISH THE CULT OF VICTIMOLOGY. I WOULD GET ALL MINORITIES TO THINK THEIR LACK OF SUCCESS WAS ALL THE FAULT OF THE MAJORITY - I WOULD START A GRIEVANCE INDUSTRY BLAMING ALL MINORITY FAILURE ON THE MAJORITY POPULATION.

VI. I WOULD ESTABLISH DUAL CITIZENSHIP AND PROMOTE DIVIDED LOYALTIES. I WOULD "CELEBRATE DIVERSITY." "DIVERSITY" IS A WONDERFULLY SEDUCTIVE WORD. IT STRESSES DIFFERENCES RATHER THAN COMMONALITIES. DIVERSE PEOPLE WORLDWIDE ARE MOSTLY ENGAGED IN HATING EACH OTHER-THAT IS, WHEN THEY ARE NOT KILLING EACH OTHER. A DIVERSE," PEACEFUL, OR STABLE SOCIETY IS AGAINST MOST HISTORICAL PRECEDENT. PEOPLE UNDERVALUE THE UNITY IT TAKES TO KEEP A NATION TOGETHER, AND WE CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS MYOPIA. LOOK AT THE ANCIENT GREEKS. DORF'S WORLD HISTORY TELLS US:
THE GREEKS BELIEVED THAT THEY BELONGED TO THE SAME RACE; THEY POSSESSED A COMMON LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE; AND THEY WORSHIPED THE SAME GODS. ALL GREECE TOOK PART IN THE OLYMPIC GAMES IN HONOR OF ZEUS AND ALL GREEKS VENERATED THE SHRINE OF APOLLO AT DELPHI. A COMMON ENEMY PERSIA THREATENED THEIR LIBERTY. YET, ALL OF THESE BONDS TOGETHER WERE NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO OVERCOME TWO FACTORS . . . (LOCAL PATRIOTISM AND GEOGRAPHICAL CONDITIONS THAT NURTURED POLITICAL DIVISIONS . . .)
IF WE CAN PUT THE EMPHASIS ON THE "PLURIBUS," INSTEAD OF THE "UNUM," WE CAN BALKANIZE AMERICA AS SURELY AS KOSOVO.

VII. THEN I WOULD PLACE ALL THESE SUBJECTS OFF LIMITS - MAKE IT TABOO TO TALK ABOUT. I WOULD FIND A WORD SIMILAR TO "HERETIC" IN THE 16TH CENTURY - THAT STOPPED DISCUSSION AND PARALYZED THINKING. WORDS LIKE "RACIST", "XENOPHOBE" THAT HALTS ARGUMENT AND CONVERSATION.

HAVING MADE AMERICA A BILINGUAL-BICULTURAL COUNTRY, HAVING ESTABLISHED MULTICULTURALISM, HAVING THE LARGE FOUNDATIONS FUND THE DOCTRINE OF "VICTIMOLOGY", I WOULD NEXT MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO ENFORCE OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS. I WOULD DEVELOP A MANTRA - "THAT BECAUSE IMMIGRATION HAS BEEN GOOD FOR AMERICA, IT MUST ALWAYS BE GOOD." I WOULD MAKE EVERY INDIVIDUAL IMMIGRANT SYMPATRIC AND IGNORE THE CUMULATIVE IMPACT.

VIII. LASTLY, I WOULD CENSOR VICTOR HANSON DAVIS'S BOOK MEXIFORNIA — THIS BOOK IS DANGEROUS — IT EXPOSES MY PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA. SO PLEASE, PLEASE — IF YOU FEEL THAT AMERICA DESERVES TO BE DESTROYED — PLEASE, PLEASE — DON'T BUY THIS BOOK! THIS GUY IS ON TO MY PLAN.
"THE SMART WAY TO KEEP PEOPLE PASSIVE AND OBEDIENT IS TO STRICTLY LIMIT THE SPECTRUM OF ACCEPTABLE OPINION, BUT ALLOW VERY LIVELY DEBATE WITHIN THAT SPECTRUM." — NOAM CHOMSKY, AMERICAN LINGUIST AND US MEDIA AND FOREIGN POLICY CRITIC.

_________________________________________________________

I found this interesting, what do you guys think?

Where did you find that?

I think it's hilarious.:)

What's with the caps? capkey broken?

No, my caps lock key isnt broken lol I found it off a site and it was already in caps.

There is the original version of the speech here I think its better see for yourself.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp

Where did you find that?

I second the request - source please.

btw: There is a great deal of truth in it I do believe.

It is on the site I posted there is both the original and revised speech.

For caps-locking a poor summary of Toynbee's studies of collapse, you do not get a cookie. :mad:

Sorry if I ruined your night. :) Does this make you feel any better?
_______________________________
We all know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Last week there was an immigration-overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor named Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration — both legal and illegal — was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.

Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'"

"Here is how they do it," Lamm said: First to destroy America, "Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar Seymour Lipset put it this way: 'The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy. Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."

Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.

Third, "We could make the United States a 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: 'The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved! Not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.'"

Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America reinforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."

"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."

"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."

"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity! Unity is what it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshiped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic Games.

A common enemy Persia threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to over come two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell.

"E. Pluribus Unum" — From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we can balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."

"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits ~ make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'x! xenophobes' halt discussion and debate."

"Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."

In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia. His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."

There was no applause.

A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Every discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America — take note of California and other states — to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength."

Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy are deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.

So this is some sort of rant in support of racial purity, is it?

Hilarious. Oh, my sides. [/Melkor]

Excellent.

We were just having this same kind of discussion in class, sald bowl compared to a melting pot.

I beleive that we are only as strong as we are united and as weak as we are divided. I beleive that diversity, brings cultures down and that, instead, America should demand unity and assimilation.

Heres the way I look at it, and liberals, PLEASE be offended. A hispanic can easily be an American, but a Mexican can NEVER be anything but a Mexican.

Think about that.

So this is some sort of rant in support of racial purity, is it?

No, just something to talk about, not saying I support it but there is truth behind it so what better place to post it than Nation States.

So this is some sort of rant in support of racial purity, is it?

Come on....atleast throw some real criticism at this conservative paper.

Dont just use the usual, conservatives of any level, shape or form must=Nazis.

Ahhh of course. There's no racism in america anymore. That was all destroyed in WW2. It's just the blacks being lazy and stupid as usual.

No, just something to talk about, not saying I support it but there is truth behind it so what better place to post it than Nation States.

I agree with it and support it.

Excellent.

We were just having this same kind of discussion in class, sald bowl compared to a melting pot.

I beleive that we are only as strong as we are united and as weak as we are divided. I beleive that diversity, brings cultures down and that, instead, America should demand unity and assimilation.

Heres the way I look at it, and liberals, PLEASE be offended. A hispanic can easily be an American, but a Mexican can NEVER be anything but a Mexican.

Think about that.

Tension only exists when people like you say and act on what you are saying right now. Because someone dresses differently and eats a different food America is no less great. As for the language thing if you don't speak english you will not get a good job in America. You will be a gardener or dishwasher so this really doesnt' effect anything. Get over yourself.

Hard to believe the guy who gave the speech is a Democrat.

Hard to believe the guy who gave the speech is a Democrat.

It's really not.

I agree with it and support it.

Its the kind of thing that you know is true but you dont want to believe it.

Tension only exists when people like you say and act on what you are saying right now. Because someone dresses differently and eats a different food America is no less great. As for the language thing if you don't speak english you will not get a good job in America. You will be a gardener or dishwasher so this really doesnt' effect anything. Get over yourself.

It affects alot.

Ever been to Los Angeles? How bout Miami? How bout Broward county? How bout anywhere in Dade county? How bout anywhere in the south west border cities?

Its the kind of thing that you know is true but you dont want to believe it.

I know its true and have always talked about it in class discussions. Theres always the few kids who will shake their heads and say, whatever, racists...but most people understand whats going on now a days.

But I agree, denying it is alot easier than actually confronting it.

Tension only exists when people like you say and act on what you are saying right now. Because someone dresses differently and eats a different food America is no less great. As for the language thing if you don't speak english you will not get a good job in America. You will be a gardener or dishwasher so this really doesnt' effect anything. Get over yourself.


I think the speech is more geared towards that America is promoting how we are supporting being different rather than coming together as a nation. Not who is or isn't a gardener/Janitor/ The old man you see working at McDonalds

Hard to believe the guy who gave the speech is a Democrat.

Look I enjoy cracking on the left as much as the next guy, but if anything is ever going to get done around here, its gonna need support from ALL Americans, sort of a cease fire between us righties and the lefties.

Come on....atleast throw some real criticism at this conservative paper.
It was. Is it, or is it not a central argument of this article that cultural diversity weakens a nation? Is it, or is it not suggested that cultural diversity is created by immigration from Central America, ie non-White people?
And is it not suggested that therefore, to be strong, we have to outlaw immigration from these areas, ie be racially pure?

It affects alot.

Ever been to Los Angeles? How bout Miami? How bout Broward county? How bout anywhere in Dade county? How bout anywhere in the south west border cities?

Yes I've been to LA. Explain an effect that is not the effect of subjugation and poverty resulting largely from discrimination in one form or another.

I think the speech is more geared towards that America is promoting how we are supporting being different rather than coming together as a nation. Not who is or isn't a gardener/Janitor/ The old man you see working at McDonalds

And that is bad how? If you take into consideration what I said before this, how does eating different food or having a different skin color or origin have a negative effect on anything? If you really think the people who have struggled immensly to come to this country don't want to be unified Americans with the rest of us you are fooling yourself. Language is the only real barrier and as I said if you do not learn English you can not progress too far in America. Thus it is not like business deals fall through because someone couldnt' speak English.

It was. Is it, or is it not a central argument of this article that cultural diversity weakens a nation?

Well, thats a given and it does...see the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the effects nationalism had on it.

Is it, or is it not suggested that cultural diversity is created by immigration from Central America, ie non-White people?

No. It can come from Asians, blacks, and hispanics and the hispanics dont even have to be from Central America, they can be from South America.

And is it not suggested that therefore, to be strong, we have to outlaw immigration from these areas, ie be racially pure?

Not at all. The only thing we have to do to immigrants, and I cannot stress this enough, is to promote assimilation and adoption of the American culture.

Yes I've been to LA. Explain an effect that is not the effect of subjugation and poverty resulting largely from discrimination in one form or another.

Oh, your one of those. :rolleyes:

I HAVE A SECRET PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA. IF YOU BELIEVE, AS MANY DO, THAT AMERICA IS TOO SMUG, TOO WHITE BREAD, TOO SELF-SATISFIED, TOO RICH, LETS DESTROY AMERICA.
:D

I actually did laugh in RL.

I found this interesting, what do you guys think?
There's a couple multi-culti countries out there that aren't at eachother's throats...
Switzerland's been doing fine for centuries, in fact, and it's tri- not bilingual.

:D

I actually did laugh in RL.

I have to ask, what does too white bread mean?

Well, thats a given and it does...see the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the effects nationalism had on it.
Is that it? One example of a state with weak leadership and powerful opponents on each border?

The US, Australia, Canada, India, China and so on...all countries with a great history of diversity, and all doing quite well at the moment.

No. It can come from Asians, blacks, and hispanics and the hispanics dont even have to be from Central America, they can be from South America.
:rolleyes:

Not at all. The only thing we have to do to immigrants, and I cannot stress this enough, is to promote assimilation and adoption of the American culture.
American culture is multiculturalism.
All a person has to do to be an American is to own the passport and start consuming. The consumption, TV and music in the US will do the rest.

There is no such thing as an American culture that someone could actively adopt.

There's a couple multi-culti countries out there that aren't at eachother's throats...
Switzerland's been doing fine for centuries, in fact, and it's tri- not bilingual.

But its still homogenous, to an extent. And its also got only a couple few million people. And it doesnt attempt to put African/South American/European Cultures together and just leave them there to sit.

Well, thats a given and it does...see the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the effects nationalism had on it.

...last I checked Germany and much of Europe were destroyed because of nationalism. No actually I mean leveled. Nationalism is the single biggest danger to a country. It breeds war and hate and creates a highly unstable condition that needs an opposite. If you aren't "insert country" than you aren't as good as us great "insert country". This is a natural result that is extremely difficult to avoid and extremely dangerous.


No. It can come from Asians, blacks, and hispanics and the hispanics dont even have to be from Central America, they can be from South America.

His point was "non-white", way to ignore it entirely. Watching you dance around that one was actually laughable.


Not at all. The only thing we have to do to immigrants, and I cannot stress this enough, is to promote assimilation and adoption of the American culture.
Why? I still haven't seen a reason from you. Immigrants are very eager to be American citizens like everyone else. How does giving up wearing certain clothes or eating certain foods endanger anything in America? The danger comes from the "old" americans being predjudiced to people who don't watch TRL and buy clothes from the Gap while eating hamburgers. This creates poverty and discrimination which in turn breed crime, anger, and resentment.

It was. Is it, or is it not a central argument of this article that cultural diversity weakens a nation? Is it, or is it not suggested that cultural diversity is created by immigration from Central America, ie non-White people?
And is it not suggested that therefore, to be strong, we have to outlaw immigration from these areas, ie be racially pure?


Its not that the speech is racist in any way. Its about our government supporting diversity in being different from everyone else. "Having our own cultural identity" where do you think racial discrimination comes from? We are becoming so different than our neighbors its almost as we are two different nations. That isnt what America is all about. I dont know about you but over half my school is hispanic/ black/ indian/ Russian. Each has their own gang there is at least 4 fights in a month. not just any fights I am talking Chuck Norris ownage. If we weren't promoting differences rather than similarities we would have a much better country.

"United we stand, divided we fall"

American culture is multiculturalism.
All a person has to do to be an American is to own the passport and start consuming. The consumption, TV and music in the US will do the rest.

There is no such thing as an American culture that someone could actively adopt.

No, American culture is multiculturalism in the 1800 and 1900's, a melting pot.

Now, America is turning into a salad bowl.

There is such thing as American culture that someone could adopt, obviously your not up on America.


There is no such thing as an American culture that someone could actively adopt.

Also, this coming from someone whos never even VISITED America.

Oh, your one of those. :rolleyes:

You mean someone who can present valid arguments and points without dismissing the issue entirely? Yes I am. Your lack of any substance to in your argument is pathetic. It's important to ignore the issue when you are wrong. Political debate 101.

Also, this coming from someone whos never even VISITED America.
The ugly thing is that you don't have to visit America anymore to know all about it. We're being bombarded with it every day. Take the population of my university, put it into the States, and if it wasn't for their Aussie accent, you couldn't tell the difference.

So this is some sort of rant in support of racial purity, is it?

Yes. Those nazis and their silly theories. Surely he's aware that if the Hispanics outcompete white people, it would only prove that white people are not in fact superior. Evolutionary fitness is based on how well genes are passed on, not who's culture is better according to the criteria of a few skinheads and reactionaries.

You mean someone who can present valid arguments and points without dismissing the issue entirely? Yes I am. Your lack of any substance to in your argument is pathetic. It's important to ignore the issue when you are wrong. Political debate 101.

I'm not wrong, its just I have learned through experience that there are some things you cant argue with liberals about. They tend not to see things your way. Ever.

<snip>
American culture is multiculturalism.
All a person has to do to be an American is to own the passport and start consuming. The consumption, TV and music in the US will do the rest.

There is no such thing as an American culture that someone could actively adopt.
Which is a large part of what's wrong with America.

It was. Is it, or is it not a central argument of this article that cultural diversity weakens a nation? Is it, or is it not suggested that cultural diversity is created by immigration from Central America, ie non-White people?
And is it not suggested that therefore, to be strong, we have to outlaw immigration from these areas, ie be racially pure?
Cultural diversity comes from unassimilated immigrants. No one is suggesting banning immigration, they're merely suggesting requiring assimilation. This is a cultural issue, not a racial one - there is a difference.

Tension only exists when people like you say and act on what you are saying right now. Because someone dresses differently and eats a different food America is no less great.
This isn't about trivia like dress and diet, it's about values, which are the core of a culture. To take an example someone else mentioned, when immigrants from some African countries perform female genital mutiliation in the US, America is less great.

As for the language thing if you don't speak english you will not get a good job in America. You will be a gardener or dishwasher so this really doesnt' effect anything.
Except that having a lot of people who are incapable getting a non-menial job is destructive to a society.

The ugly thing is that you don't have to visit America anymore to know all about it. We're being bombarded with it every day. Take the population of my university, put it into the States, and if it wasn't for their Aussie accent, you couldn't tell the difference.

I beleive that would be the English's fault.

And how is that ugly?

The ugly thing is that you don't have to visit America anymore to know all about it. We're being bombarded with it every day. Take the population of my university, put it into the States, and if it wasn't for their Aussie accent, you couldn't tell the difference.

You have no idea what it is like to be in America. Depending on where you go one minute you will be in China the next Italy then Mexico then your eating burgers at the White Castle.We are so different you could never know what its like to be an American because America is no longer one it is many. Don't know if that makes any sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me.

I'm not wrong, its just I have learned through experience that there are some things you cant argue with liberals about. They tend not to see things your way. Ever.

...Let me lay out your argument.

"You've stated your argument clearly and given the reasons behind it but I'm afraid you wont listen to me so I won't lay out mine at all. Instead I'll call you a liberal and insist that all liberals cannot listen to debate nor partake in it. A key factor in my logic is that I provide absolutely no reasoning for any statements I make ie: If other cultures don't assimilate into one united American culture the country will fail even though this has not been the case since the conception of the country...just because I said so."

Make a point or stop posting, you're boring me.

Let me guess the response: "Oh see you hostile liberals your not listening to me at all. Just because not one post I've made even attempts to address your argument that doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about...I bet you love Hilary Clinton and don't eat meat you dirty liberal"

Once again. Get over yourself and debate logically.

And how is that ugly?
Because I find pop-culture shallow.

I'm not wrong, its just I have learned through experience that there are some things you cant argue with liberals about. They tend not to see things your way. Ever.

It works that way with conservatives, too. You can't simply dismiss his arguments with an eye-roll.

To me, this sounds like the author is attributing the "destruction" of America to multi-culturalism. It's not necessarily wrong, as too many competing cultures within a society will eventually tear it apart. But I'd like to see real, concrete evidence that is actually happening. If you really think that the problem can be solved by teaching "American culture", then tell me how you define American culture and I'll see if I can agree with you on this or not.

But its still homogenous, to an extent. And its also got only a couple few million people. And it doesnt attempt to put African/South American/European Cultures together and just leave them there to sit.It's got three rather distinct languages. What's more, it compares remarkably well to Belgium by size, and Belgium doesn't try to put "African/South American/European Cultures together and just leave them there to sit" either...

Cultural diversity comes from unassimilated immigrants. No one is suggesting banning immigration, they're merely suggesting requiring assimilation. This is a cultural issue, not a racial one - there is a difference.
So tell me what you would teach those immigrants. What is American culture? What should they be assimilated into?

...Let me lay out your argument.

"You've stated your argument clearly and given the reasons behind it but I'm afraid you wont listen to me so I won't lay out mine at all. Instead I'll call you a liberal and insist that all liberals cannot listen to debate nor partake in it. A key factor in my logic is that I provide absolutely no reasoning for any statements I make ie: If other cultures don't assimilate into one united American culture the country will fail even though this has not been the case since the conception of the country...just because I said so."

Make a point or stop posting, you're boring me.

Let me guess the response: "Oh see you hostile liberals your not listening to me at all. Just because not one post I've made even attempts to address your argument that doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about...I bet you love Hilary Clinton and don't eat meat you dirty liberal"

Once again. Get over yourself and debate logically.

Dude, read the previous pages, I have posted on them around. Look at the stuff me and Neu Leonstein have been disagreeing about, but whatever you do, just relax. Its only a forum :rolleyes:

It's got three rather distinct languages. What's more, it compares remarkably well to Belgium by size, and Belgium doesn't try to put "African/South American/European Cultures together and just leave them there to sit" either...

Right, but they are still all Europeans, with the same ways of life, same values, same traditions. Its one thing to have a state with Italians, French and Germans in it. Its another thing to have one with Asians, South Americans, Africans, Arabs and Europeans in it.

If you dont see the difference, well then, I guess our little conversation isnt going to go anywhere.

This isn't about trivia like dress and diet, it's about values, which are the core of a culture. To take an example someone else mentioned, when immigrants from some African countries perform female genital mutiliation in the US, America is less great.
That point I can understand. This is why we enact laws to try to prevent such abuse in America. Issues like that are the absolute extreme and are being addressed.


Except that having a lot of people who are incapable getting a non-menial job is destructive to a society.
No one wants to stay on the bottom rung of society. It is motivation to learn, not to mention their kids then go to American schools and then naturally learn english.

By the way I just scored a date suckas.;)

Dude, read the previous pages, I have posted on them around. Look at the stuff me and Neu Leonstein have been disagreeing about, but whatever you do, just relax. Its only a forum :rolleyes:

I'm always relaxed when typing online. It takes more than that to get the blood flowing.

So tell me what you would teach those immigrants. What is American culture? What should they be assimilated into?
Part of my point is that we don't have a fully established American culture, and this is problematic even apart from issues connected to immigration. Nevertheless, we can start by teaching them basic enlightenment values: The supremacy of the individual, the superiority of reason over superstition, free speech, free press, limits to parental authority, etc.

American culture is multiculturalism.
All a person has to do to be an American is to own the passport and start consuming. The consumption, TV and music in the US will do the rest.

There is no such thing as an American culture that someone could actively adopt.

Thats exactly the problem with America, we need our own distinct culture.

The US, Australia, Canada, India, China and so on...all countries with a great history of diversity, and all doing quite well at the moment.





Actually no I live in the united states and cultural differences are a big problem, everyday peopel of different cultures clash over there differences, america definately isnt going in the right direction. As for Austrailia they are also not doing to well judging by the recent events of the Lebanese rioting caused by cultural differences. India also has many problems, mainly with religious beliefs, everyday there is conflict between the muslims, hindus, and christians. One of my family members recently worked at a christian orphanage and they were continually harrassed by members of the muslim and hindu religion. The hindus who are the majority in the indian government refused to give relief money to the muslims and christians, this proves that the cultural diversity that you speak so highly of is not working at all in those countries. And as for China they are probably some of the most opressed people out there.

Thank you, and goodnight;)

yeah... this is kinda weird.

Yes, we should destroy America.

Yes, emphasizing differences is a problem.

What needs to be done worldwide is recognizing and emphasizing what all people have in common, especially along class lines. Cultural differences don't have to be eradicated, they just have to be sidelined in favor of common ground. Then we can make some real progress.

and when I say progress, I mean revolution.

OK, so you REALLY want to destroy America?

1. Buy oil futures.

2. Threaten to destroy oil distribution facilities.

3. Blow up many refineries, and screw up a few pipelines in the ME.

4. Even better, blow up a few oil rigs as well, and blame America.

5. Stay out of America.

6. Watch the mayhem unfold as oil prices skyrocket to $300/barrel and get a massive return on your investment at 1...

NOTE: I do NOT condone this course of action and would never peform it due to the untold horrors it would deliver to the American people. (food distribution networks would break down etc.). That said, we're probably going to see a problem like this rear its ugly head in the not too distant future due to Peak Oil anyway.

Also, The CIA, NSA and various SAS teams from the Western world would be looking for your rear...

What exactly is American culture?

I HAVE A PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA
RICHARD D. LAMM

I HAVE A SECRET PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA. IF YOU BELIEVE, AS MANY DO, THAT AMERICA IS TOO SMUG, TOO WHITE BREAD, TOO SELF-SATISFIED, TOO RICH, LETS DESTROY AMERICA. IT IS NOT THAT HARD TO DO. HISTORY SHOWS THAT NATIONS ARE MORE FRAGILE THAN THEIR CITIZENS THINK. NO NATION IN HISTORY HAS SURVIVED THE RAVAGES OF TIME. ARNOLD TOYNBEE OBSERVED THAT ALL GREAT CIVILIZATIONS RISE AND THEY ALL FALL, AND THAT "AN AUTOPSY OF HISTORY WOULD SHOW THAT ALL GREAT NATIONS COMMIT SUICIDE." HERE IS MY PLAN:

I. WE MUST FIRST MAKE AMERICA A BILINGUAL-BICULTURAL COUNTRY. HISTORY SHOWS, IN MY OPINION, THAT NO NATION CAN SURVIVE THE TENSION, CONFLICT, AND ANTAGONISM OF TWO COMPETING LANGUAGES AND CULTURES. IT IS A BLESSING FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO BE BILINGUAL; IT IS A CURSE FOR A SOCIETY TO BE BILINGUAL. ONE SCHOLAR, SEYMOUR MARTIN LIPSET, PUT IT THIS WAY:

THE HISTORIES OF BILINGUAL AND BICULTURAL SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT ASSIMILATE ARE HISTORIES OF TURMOIL, TENSION, AND TRAGEDY. CANADA, BELGIUM, MALAYSIA, LEBANON-ALL FACE CRISES OF NATIONAL EXISTENCE IN WHICH MINORITIES PRESS FOR AUTONOMY, IF NOT INDEPENDENCE. PAKISTAN AND CYPRUS HAVE DIVIDED. NIGERIA SUPPRESSED AN ETHNIC REBELLION. FRANCE FACES DIFFICULTIES WITH ITS BASQUES, BRETONS, AND CORSICANS.
II. I WOULD THEN INVENT "MULTICULTURALISM" AND ENCOURAGE IMMIGRANTS TO MAINTAIN THEIR OWN CULTURE. I WOULD MAKE IT AN ARTICLE OF BELIEF THAT ALL CULTURES ARE EQUAL: THAT THERE ARE NO CULTURAL DIFFERENCES THAT ARE IMPORTANT. I WOULD DECLARE IT AN ARTICLE OF FAITH THAT THE BLACK AND HISPANIC DROPOUT RATE IS ONLY DUE TO PREJUDICE AND DISCRIMINATION BY THE MAJORITY. EVERY OTHER EXPLANATION IS OUT-OF-BOUNDS.

III. WE CAN MAKE THE UNITED STATES A "HISPANIC QUEBEC" WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT. THE KEY IS TO CELEBRATE DIVERSITY RATHER THAN UNITY. AS BENJAMIN SCHWARZ SAID IN THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY RECENTLY:
...THE APPARENT SUCCESS OF OUR OWN MULTIETHNIC AND MULTICULTURAL EXPERIMENT MIGHT HAVE BEEN ACHIEVED NOT BY TOLERANCE BUT BY HEGEMONY. WITHOUT THE DOMINANCE THAT ONCE DICTATED ETHNOCENTRICALLY, AND WHAT IT MEANT TO BE AN AMERICAN, WE ARE LEFT WITH ONLY TOLERANCE AND PLURALISM TO HOLD US TOGETHER.
I WOULD ENCOURAGE ALL IMMIGRANTS TO KEEP THEIR OWN LANGUAGE AND CULTURE. I WOULD REPLACE THE MELTING POT METAPHOR WITH A SALAD BOWL METAPHOR. IT IS IMPORTANT TO INSURE THAT WE HAVE VARIOUS CULTURAL SUB-GROUPS LIVING IN AMERICA REINFORCING THEIR DIFFERENCES RATHER THAN AMERICANS, EMPHASIZING THEIR SIMILARITIES.

IV. HAVING DONE ALL THIS, I WOULD MAKE OUR FASTEST GROWING DEMOGRAPHIC GROUP THE LEAST EDUCATED - I WOULD ADD A SECOND UNDERCLASS, UNASSIMILATED, UNDEREDUCATED, AND ANTAGONISTIC TO OUR POPULATION. I WOULD HAVE THIS SECOND UNDERCLASS HAVE A 50% DROP OUT RATE FROM SCHOOL.

V. I WOULD THEN GET THE BIG FOUNDATIONS AND BIG BUSINESS TO GIVE THESE EFFORTS LOTS OF MONEY. I WOULD INVEST IN ETHNIC IDENTITY, AND I WOULD ESTABLISH THE CULT OF VICTIMOLOGY. I WOULD GET ALL MINORITIES TO THINK THEIR LACK OF SUCCESS WAS ALL THE FAULT OF THE MAJORITY - I WOULD START A GRIEVANCE INDUSTRY BLAMING ALL MINORITY FAILURE ON THE MAJORITY POPULATION.

VI. I WOULD ESTABLISH DUAL CITIZENSHIP AND PROMOTE DIVIDED LOYALTIES. I WOULD "CELEBRATE DIVERSITY." "DIVERSITY" IS A WONDERFULLY SEDUCTIVE WORD. IT STRESSES DIFFERENCES RATHER THAN COMMONALITIES. DIVERSE PEOPLE WORLDWIDE ARE MOSTLY ENGAGED IN HATING EACH OTHER-THAT IS, WHEN THEY ARE NOT KILLING EACH OTHER. A DIVERSE," PEACEFUL, OR STABLE SOCIETY IS AGAINST MOST HISTORICAL PRECEDENT. PEOPLE UNDERVALUE THE UNITY IT TAKES TO KEEP A NATION TOGETHER, AND WE CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS MYOPIA. LOOK AT THE ANCIENT GREEKS. DORF'S WORLD HISTORY TELLS US:
THE GREEKS BELIEVED THAT THEY BELONGED TO THE SAME RACE; THEY POSSESSED A COMMON LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE; AND THEY WORSHIPED THE SAME GODS. ALL GREECE TOOK PART IN THE OLYMPIC GAMES IN HONOR OF ZEUS AND ALL GREEKS VENERATED THE SHRINE OF APOLLO AT DELPHI. A COMMON ENEMY PERSIA THREATENED THEIR LIBERTY. YET, ALL OF THESE BONDS TOGETHER WERE NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO OVERCOME TWO FACTORS . . . (LOCAL PATRIOTISM AND GEOGRAPHICAL CONDITIONS THAT NURTURED POLITICAL DIVISIONS . . .)
IF WE CAN PUT THE EMPHASIS ON THE "PLURIBUS," INSTEAD OF THE "UNUM," WE CAN BALKANIZE AMERICA AS SURELY AS KOSOVO.

VII. THEN I WOULD PLACE ALL THESE SUBJECTS OFF LIMITS - MAKE IT TABOO TO TALK ABOUT. I WOULD FIND A WORD SIMILAR TO "HERETIC" IN THE 16TH CENTURY - THAT STOPPED DISCUSSION AND PARALYZED THINKING. WORDS LIKE "RACIST", "XENOPHOBE" THAT HALTS ARGUMENT AND CONVERSATION.

HAVING MADE AMERICA A BILINGUAL-BICULTURAL COUNTRY, HAVING ESTABLISHED MULTICULTURALISM, HAVING THE LARGE FOUNDATIONS FUND THE DOCTRINE OF "VICTIMOLOGY", I WOULD NEXT MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO ENFORCE OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS. I WOULD DEVELOP A MANTRA - "THAT BECAUSE IMMIGRATION HAS BEEN GOOD FOR AMERICA, IT MUST ALWAYS BE GOOD." I WOULD MAKE EVERY INDIVIDUAL IMMIGRANT SYMPATRIC AND IGNORE THE CUMULATIVE IMPACT.

VIII. LASTLY, I WOULD CENSOR VICTOR HANSON DAVIS'S BOOK MEXIFORNIA — THIS BOOK IS DANGEROUS — IT EXPOSES MY PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA. SO PLEASE, PLEASE — IF YOU FEEL THAT AMERICA DESERVES TO BE DESTROYED — PLEASE, PLEASE — DON'T BUY THIS BOOK! THIS GUY IS ON TO MY PLAN.
"THE SMART WAY TO KEEP PEOPLE PASSIVE AND OBEDIENT IS TO STRICTLY LIMIT THE SPECTRUM OF ACCEPTABLE OPINION, BUT ALLOW VERY LIVELY DEBATE WITHIN THAT SPECTRUM." — NOAM CHOMSKY, AMERICAN LINGUIST AND US MEDIA AND FOREIGN POLICY CRITIC.

_________________________________________________________

I found this interesting, what do you guys think?

sounds a tad nazi..i know i said the n word...but what are we to do... what does send me you your weak,wretched and helpless mean to you?

to me..i think it is a fresh start for oppressed people from EVERYWHERE to start their life anew...i dont want enemies of our freedoms here,but it can be dealt with without being xenophobic i think...or are some just too lazy to try and deal with the crimminals and terrorists.
booming biz actually here.:sniper:

Me no Importa!

You want to know why I really hate these attacks on multiculturalism? It's not just that they are narrowminded, xenophobic, and intolerant. It's not that they undeservedly blame all societies problems on minorities. It's because they amount to a personal attack on me!

Well not just me but also any of the growing number of Americans who don't just believe in multiculturalism but are multicultural in heritage. I can trace my family history back to the gold rush in California. I equate my personal heritage with that of the state of California. The original constitution of California (the Bear Flag Republic) was signed by Mexicans, Blacks and Indians along with Whites. My personal heritage contains a similar mix.

It pisses me off that WASP bigots who came to this state later think they have a more legitamate claim to the state than descendants of those who first colonized this region (after the native inhabitants).

You don't like that California is a melting pot, move your ass to South Dakota.

You want to know why I really hate these attacks on multiculturalism? It's not just that they are narrowminded, xenophobic, and intolerant. It's not that they undeservedly blame all societies problems on minorities. It's because they amount to a personal attack on me!

Well not just me but also any of the growing number of Americans who don't just believe in multiculturalism but are multicultural in heritage. I can trace my family history back to the gold rush in California. I equate my personal heritage with that of the state of California. The original constitution of California (the Bear Flag Republic) was signed by Mexicans, Blacks and Indians along with Whites. My personal heritage contains a similar mix.

It pisses me off that WASP bigots who came to this state later think they have a more legitamate claim to the state than descendants of those who first colonized this region (after the native inhabitants).

You don't like that California is a melting pot, move your ass to South Dakota.

damn straight.

yeah... this is kinda weird.

Yes, we should destroy America.

Yes, emphasizing differences is a problem.

What needs to be done worldwide is recognizing and emphasizing what all people have in common, especially along class lines. Cultural differences don't have to be eradicated, they just have to be sidelined in favor of common ground. Then we can make some real progress.

and when I say progress, I mean revolution.

i am a constitutional...libertarian type of person..this country needs a good kick in the ass and a wake up call...

as far as immigrants..read my other post...i am second gen immigrant,and i see the problems,but wtf am i gonna say..ok for my parents to come here...not yours?

dude,dudette...i am all for revolution...gung ho you could say.

but i am not going to hurt 1 innocent person...i will forgo my freedom and my beliefs in the greatness this country, is capable of.to not hurt a innocent soul...ever.and that really hurts me.

it is frustrating....vexing if you will...i love my freedom and want my kids to have the same...yet their are greedy evil fucks...that have hijacked my country(both dem and repub)and the only way to change it is armed and violent rebellion...i see no other way..if you have one..believe me..i am all ears!

i despise violence..yet mortifyingly..i am quite good at it:-(

thats why i would vote..even if i was the only one..for any third party...because the 2 main partys are plain disgusting.

the left is a joke...my more conservative friends laugh about the left..correctly i may add,and the liberal friends of mine..laugh at the cons...rightly i may add.

it leaves me with 1 hope...another party...not some hand wringing,minority pandering liberal,or some bushevite big biz scum...all those need votes and dont do what is right,but what is exspediant and brings in votes/money...fucking disgusting to me..

i will throw my vote away as a protest...or hope their is some upheaval here...or sharpen my knives,and polish my guns.

rant off:mad:

You want to know why I really hate these attacks on multiculturalism? It's not just that they are narrowminded, xenophobic, and intolerant. It's not that they undeservedly blame all societies problems on minorities. It's because they amount to a personal attack on me!

Well not just me but also any of the growing number of Americans who don't just believe in multiculturalism but are multicultural in heritage. I can trace my family history back to the gold rush in California. I equate my personal heritage with that of the state of California. The original constitution of California (the Bear Flag Republic) was signed by Mexicans, Blacks and Indians along with Whites. My personal heritage contains a similar mix.

It pisses me off that WASP bigots who came to this state later think they have a more legitamate claim to the state than descendants of those who first colonized this region (after the native inhabitants).

You don't like that California is a melting pot, move your ass to South Dakota.

Sending all the bigots to South Dakota...I dunno. It might ruin the postcards.

America does have a culture that is such a blend of other cultures that it seems nothing is really American. Americans live in a country where the same group of people can celebrate St. Patrick's Day, Cinco de Mayo, and the 4th of July without anyone so much as batting an eyelash. The same thing goes for food. It would be perfectly reasonable to get a hamburger served on Indian naan with bleu cheese and sriracha, and wash it all down with a Corona.

If anything, I would say that it's the tendency of minorities to stick together that is dragging them all down. If people were to go out into the world and find a white friend, a black friend, an asian friend, and a hispanic friend, what they would wind up with is a bunch of friends. Isn't that worth it?

Sending all the bigots to South Dakota...I dunno. It might ruin the postcards.

I wouldn't do that... there are Indian reservations there. I doubt the Natives would be pleased with an influx of white bigots.

As if immigration is the biggest problem the United States is facing.
The US is falling faster than Rome did. We're either going to enter a totalitarian state of massive government control, or this corrupted country is going to fall apart at its foundations. Either way, it will happen eventually. This endevor simply didn't work out. We should scrap it and start over again.

I wouldn't do that... there are Indian reservations there. I doubt the Natives would be pleased with an influx of white bigots.
Can you honestly think of any place that'd be pleased with an influx of white bigots?

I wouldn't do that... there are Indian reservations there. I doubt the Natives would be pleased with an influx of white bigots.

Bah! They can go back where they came from. ;)

Once upon a time Benjamin Franklin warned that the evil Germans were going to destroy our common English culture. Instead they gave us the Christmas tree and the word "Gesundheit."

The know-nothings once said that drunken-lout Irish were going to destroy our Anglo-Saxon culture. Instead they gave us Guinness and St. Patrick's Day (GREEN CUPCAKES!!!!!!)

Opponents of Chinese Immigration said that their Eastern culture wouldn't respect democracy and sap our nation of our Western values. Instead we got fortune cookies and "Big Trouble in Little China".

The klan said that the dirty Catholics were going to destroy our protestant culture, and that John F. Kennedy would be beholden to the Pope. Instead we were inspired to put a man on the moon and continued on the path to defeat the Soviets without firing a shot.

very ethnic group to immigrate to the US has caused the exact same worries to come into existence, and they have always proved to be baseless fears and little more than silly xenophobia. I speak English instead of German or Polish, I am not beholden to the Pope even though my grandparents were once Catholic, and I consider myself an American. I would imagine that in four generations the children of Hispanic immigrants will be able to say very similar things. Immigration only makes us stronger, more dynamic and vibrant.

You want to know why I really hate these attacks on multiculturalism? It's not just that they are narrowminded, xenophobic, and intolerant. It's not that they undeservedly blame all societies problems on minorities. It's because they amount to a personal attack on me!

Well not just me but also any of the growing number of Americans who don't just believe in multiculturalism but are multicultural in heritage. I can trace my family history back to the gold rush in California. I equate my personal heritage with that of the state of California. The original constitution of California (the Bear Flag Republic) was signed by Mexicans, Blacks and Indians along with Whites. My personal heritage contains a similar mix.

It pisses me off that WASP bigots who came to this state later think they have a more legitamate claim to the state than descendants of those who first colonized this region (after the native inhabitants).

You don't like that California is a melting pot, move your ass to South Dakota.
You misunderstand: A melting pot is good. Many cultures have valuable elements, and the best way to build a superior culture is to take the best elements from many existing cultures. What is problematic is when individuals go beyond retaining the good from their cultures of origin, and, refusing to assimilate, retain the evil as well.

Heres the way I look at it, and liberals, PLEASE be offended. A hispanic can easily be an American, but a Mexican can NEVER be anything but a Mexican.

I did, and I decided that it doesn't make sense. I cannot decide whether you are an idiot, a fool, or a philosopher above my lowly level.

I wish we would destroy America, if only to teach these dipshit assholes a lesson.

They refuse to acknowledge after 200 years that this country was built by immigrants. They cannot grasp that they maintain such a high standard of living as compared to the rest of the world, only because these people they deride work double only to gain a step up.

Let America collapse, when it does these fools will be left behind by those who do embrace multiculturalism. Our overactive government has protected them for far too long.

Once upon a time Benjamin Franklin warned that the evil Germans were going to destroy our common English culture. Instead they gave us the Christmas tree and the word "Gesundheit."

The know-nothings once said that drunken-lout Irish were going to destroy our Anglo-Saxon culture. Instead they gave us Guinness and St. Patrick's Day (GREEN CUPCAKES!!!!!!)

Opponents of Chinese Immigration said that their Eastern culture wouldn't respect democracy and sap our nation of our Western values. Instead we got fortune cookies and "Big Trouble in Little China".

The klan said that the dirty Catholics were going to destroy our protestant culture, and that John F. Kennedy would be beholden to the Pope. Instead we were inspired to put a man on the moon and continued on the path to defeat the Soviets without firing a shot.

very ethnic group to immigrate to the US has caused the exact same worries to come into existence, and they have always proved to be baseless fears and little more than silly xenophobia. I speak English instead of German or Polish, I am not beholden to the Pope even though my grandparents were once Catholic, and I consider myself an American. I would imagine that in four generations the children of Hispanic immigrants will be able to say very similar things. Immigration only makes us stronger, more dynamic and vibrant.

great points..all

i am as well a son of immigrants...thats why i say no to bigots and xenaphobes...this country is great!
and diversity makes it so...i can understand the fears of the xenaphobes,i just dont agree....the benefit far outweighs the bad...and if the cops were spending more time looking for terrs and assholes,instead of looking to pad their muni budget,,,we may not have much to fear...but alas...biz is biz

You misunderstand: A melting pot is good. Many cultures have valuable elements, and the best way to build a superior culture is to take the best elements from many existing cultures. What is problematic is when individuals go beyond retaining the good from their cultures of origin, and, refusing to assimilate, retain the evil as well. Check your zipper, your prejudice is showing.

Steps to destroy America:

1) Whip up fears out of all proportion to the actual threat - terrorism and immigration are two fantastic examples.

2) Present draconian solutions to the problems you just brought up.

3) Convince public these measures aren't just brought in for their benefit - they're their only chance of survival!

4) Make Hitler salute

Steps to destroy America:

1) Whip up fears out of all proportion to the actual threat - terrorism and immigration are two fantastic examples.

2) Present draconian solutions to the problems you just brought up.

3) Convince public these measures aren't just brought in for their benefit - they're their only chance of survival!

4) Make Hitler salute

can i vote for you..i am sooo scared of people different then me...please save me!!!!!

or at least...make me and everyone stay inside our homes,so you guys can get the bad guys,while i watch american idol!

Heres the way I look at it, and liberals, PLEASE be offended. A hispanic can easily be an American, but a Mexican can NEVER be anything but a Mexican.
Yeah, because offense leads to rational discussion and non-draconian solutions. :rolleyes:

Ignoring the childish baiting for a moment: I don't understand why my fellow liberals would be offended by this. Illegal immigration is the main tool used to undercut minimum-wage and labor laws, it's absolutely in our best interest to cut it off. And requiring those entering our country (and corporations already here) to abide by our laws would not kill multiculturalism either -- in fact, having real Americans of a different background instead of illicit wage-slaves hiding from the INS would strengthen multiculturalism, since they'd actually contribute to society.

Limitation of Debate restroys many things.

I don't understand why my fellow liberals would be offended by this. Illegal immigration is the main tool used to undercut minimum-wage and labor laws, it's absolutely in our best interest to cut it off. And requiring those entering our country (and corporations already here) to abide by our laws would not kill multiculturalism either -- in fact, having real Americans of a different background instead of illicit wage-slaves hiding from the INS would strengthen multiculturalism, since they'd actually contribute to society.

hear-hear! It is also used as a means to transport illegal drugs into the U.S. and does represent a security threat as well. So what is wrong with doing all we can to stop illegal entry into the U.S. and punishing employers that hire illegal aliens and instantly deporting those we find to be here illegally?

hear-hear! It is also used as a means to transport illegal drugs into the U.S. and does represent a security threat as well. So what is wrong with doing all we can to stop illegal entry into the U.S. and punishing employers that hire illegal aliens and instantly deporting those we find to be here illegally?
That being on the left actually requires you to be a bit of an internationalist. The idea that "illegal aliens" are a problem is one that first requires a ground-swell of patriotism/nationalism, something that makes you think you have a right to live in the States, but Pablo from Mexico doesn't.

As for the drugs...don't be silly. The security threat, of there was one, comes from those who buy the crap, not those who supply it.

If anything, let them all in. Quit the whole "you need a permit to work in the States". That's put an end to the Coyotes' business in no time flat.

<SNIP>

I found this interesting, what do you guys think?

Better than my plan to destroy America. Which was to wangle my finger at it til it got overcome by guilt and annoyance.

All Caps? Not gonna read it.

That being on the left actually requires you to be a bit of an internationalist. The idea that "illegal aliens" are a problem is one that first requires a ground-swell of patriotism/nationalism, something that makes you think you have a right to live in the States, but Pablo from Mexico doesn't.

As for the drugs...don't be silly. The security threat, of there was one, comes from those who buy the crap, not those who supply it.

If anything, let them all in. Quit the whole "you need a permit to work in the States". That's put an end to the Coyotes' business in no time flat.

But what you dont understand is, people over here dont think like that. Its just insane. How can you rationally say we should just open up Americas borders to whoever the hell wants to get in?!

Thats a very ignorant thing to say, even if you are for some sort of global civilization.

OMG LIEK PROPAGANDA IS SO MUCJ MOR CONVINSIN IN ALL CAPS! :rolleyes:

What a completely stupid topic! I really can't believe that anyone with two braincells could take this seriously.
You want to halt illegal immigration? Hmm. Tough one. How about we enforce the laws that are already on the books?
That means busting the millionaires who hire them! A very small amount of people compared to those wading through the Rio Grande. Of course, that would mean that motel prices would skyrocket, grocery prices would skyrocket, and consequentially, a whole shitload of other prices would skyrocket.
You wipe out the demand, you wipe out the supply. It's called capitalism.
Typical of the modern neocon attitude..."I want my cake, and I want to eat it forever. That's my right as a freedom loving American.
Pardon whilst I wretch.

What a completely stupid topic! I really can't believe that anyone with two braincells could take this seriously.

It's more about the failings of multiculturalism. Which is very important indeed.

Most of the people in this country, once upon a time, spoke German. Look it up. They were immigrants. Granted, most of them made an effort, and succeeded, to speak English. Many didn't, but adapted, and were accepted by most of the locals.
How is that situation, which occurred I believe in the mid 1800s, so different from the influx of Spanish speaking, brown, people doing the same today.
I suspect the idea here is that 1:They're brown and 2: They're here illegally. If number one is the reason for your fear of multiculturalism, that's racism. If number two is the reason, refer to the laws already on the books, and prosecute the people who hire them....and take your medicine with it.

Tension only exists when people like you say and act on what you are saying right now. Because someone dresses differently and eats a different food America is no less great. As for the language thing if you don't speak english you will not get a good job in America. You will be a gardener or dishwasher so this really doesnt' effect anything. Get over yourself.
Our country is doomed. People like you are destroying it. You completely ignored what he said and just threw the word racism out there rather than debate a perfectly reasonable point. History IS clear. Lincoln WAS right. A house divided against itself will not stand. We used to have a clear sense of what it meant to be an American and we used to have a melting pot ideal. People came here not to start their own little countries within a country, but to become part of this country. Not anymore. People like you who are so far left you've ended up right have destroyed legitimate debate within this country. Its gotten to the point now you can't even publish a cartoon without people like you calling for censorship. It was lively, open, free political debate that ended slavery. People were free to publish and speak opinions that were very offensive to people, but they were free to do it. Now, if you disagree with the PC crowd you need to be censored with stupid, one word answers: RACIST! XENOPHOBE! Forget debate, lets just call names rather than deal with an obvious problem taht is right here in front of us.

I grew up in a mostly Hispanic neighborhood and all of my long time friedns are Hispanic. I was one of only two white people in my circle of friends growing up. I have no problem with Hispanics or Mulims, seeing as how I'm about to marry one. Did you know that two thirds of legal hispanic immigrants are in favor of tougher border controls? Did you know that one of the most vocal groups in favor of tougher border controls are inner city African Americans who are losing what used to be really good construction jobs to illegals who will work for illegal wages and illegal hours?

You need to get over yourself. You PC freaks think you have all the answers but all you really have is a group of insulting words to throw at people who differ in their opinions.

I don't know how multiculturalism works in the USA, but here in Canada, it works fine. Many people come here from all parts of the globe, maintain their culture, don't learn english or french, and somehow, our country still doesn't tear itself apart. Quebec and english Canada have been threatening it for over 125 years but it still hasn't happened.

Canadian multiculturaslism believes that all cultures are equal, but this does not mean that we, as Canadians, feel that all cultural practices should be respected. If your culture practices female genital mutilation, only wearing leather, and dancing yourself into a religious fervor, then boogie in your chaps, but don't touch the clitorises. Canadian law protects cultures, but never at the expense of civil rights.

Looking at the OP, I have certain questions:
Why is celebrating diversity a bad thing?
How does support for multiculturalism create a narrower debate in society?
Why isn't Canada torn asunder by all the cultures living in it now?

And lastly, does the OP bring anything factual to the debate, or is it just another rant about current immigrants from the point of view of earlier immigrants?

OMG LIEK PROPAGANDA IS SO MUCJ MOR CONVINSIN IN ALL CAPS! :rolleyes:

This goes to everyone who is complaining about the all caps speech. If you wouldve taken the time to scroll down from the first page there is the same speech without all caps so look at that one and quit complaining.

By the way no one here cares you dont want to read it.

How can you rationally say we should just open up Americas borders to whoever the hell wants to get in?!
What have you done to be on the inside? Nothing. The US is not the achievement of any single person. It's not the achievement of today's population either. You simply have no real claim on anything other than a piece of paper.

All I'm saying is that you don't have any more "right" to live in any given country than anyone else. Indeed, Pablo from Mexico would probably be a harder worker than you would be. He would be doing more to earn his place. Because he appreciates it more (and he puts his labour where his mouth is), he might even have more right to live there than you.

And besides, it's not like the welfare state is particularly generous in the States. He wouldn't be a parasite, he would be a contributor, simply because it's the only thing he can do.

VII. THEN I WOULD PLACE ALL THESE SUBJECTS OFF LIMITS - MAKE IT TABOO TO TALK ABOUT. I WOULD FIND A WORD SIMILAR TO "HERETIC" IN THE 16TH CENTURY - THAT STOPPED DISCUSSION AND PARALYZED THINKING. WORDS LIKE "RACIST", "XENOPHOBE" THAT HALTS ARGUMENT AND CONVERSATION.
Looks like some conservatives have bought into the cult of victimology!

This goes to everyone who is complaining about the all caps speech. If you wouldve taken the time to scroll down from the first page there is the same speech without all caps so look at that one and quit complaining.

By the way no one here cares you dont want to read it.

I don't really care that its in all caps. It's the fact that it's alarmist propaganda nonsense that puts me off.

Come on....atleast throw some real criticism at this conservative paper.

Dont just use the usual, conservatives of any level, shape or form must=Nazis.
Is it really a conservative paper?

"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."
Liberals want more education, not less!

American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America
Yeah, liberals are really supportive of outsourcing. :rolleyes:

What have you done to be on the inside? Nothing. The US is not the achievement of any single person. It's not the achievement of today's population either. You simply have no real claim on anything other than a piece of paper.

All I'm saying is that you don't have any more "right" to live in any given country than anyone else. Indeed, Pablo from Mexico would probably be a harder worker than you would be. He would be doing more to earn his place. Because he appreciates it more (and he puts his labour where his mouth is), he might even have more right to live there than you.

And besides, it's not like the welfare state is particularly generous in the States. He wouldn't be a parasite, he would be a contributor, simply because it's the only thing he can do.

Wow. I just dont understand how someone can really beleive the shit that just flowed out of your fingers. Does this feeling of such hatred for nationality simply come from you being a German who feels sorry for himself over what happend 60 years ago? Nationality is more than a few lines on a map, it a feeling of pride, of belonging somewhere, or being a part of a country, in my case, the best country in the world. I feel terrible that you dont understand this feeling, but you really need to get over the war. People have forgiven Germany, Nationalism DOES NOT equal Nazism.

If you dont get the simple concept of a nationality, then I dont see how this conversation can go anywhere.

Is it really a conservative paper?


Liberals want more education, not less!


Yeah, liberals are really supportive of outsourcing. :rolleyes:

Well, right now its mainly conservatives who are speaking out against the problems of immigrations. American liberals generally view it as taboo, though this is obvioulsly an exception because this guys a democrat.

Though, now that I think about it hes probably not a liberal democrat...just a moderate.

Nationality is more than a few lines on a map, it a feeling of pride, of belonging somewhere, or being a part of a country, in my case, the best country in the world.
No, mate. Just 'no'.

No, mate. Just 'no'.

LOL....but it is. Seriously where does your hatred of nationality come from?

Seriously where does your hatred of nationality come from?
I don't "hate" nationality. I think it's a silly concept, made up for people who would rather spend their days living in an arrogant dream world than look out there and see that people are the same everywhere.

Yes, it is true that in the US kids are probably taught to switch of their brains whenever they see a flag, and that doesn't happen in Germany. But I am grateful for that.

For me, people are the same. All humans are equal. That comes first, and then dividing them by arbitrary lines on a map is simply a violation of that.

And by the way, I don't know my national anthem either. I'd have to look up the lyrics. I have not sung it all my life. It'd feel moronic to try.

*snip*

I find the entire concept of nationalism repulsive on every level, and no, I am not German.

I find the entire concept of nationalism repulsive on every level, and no, I am not German.

But why?

I don't "hate" nationality. I think it's a silly concept, made up for people who would rather spend their days living in an arrogant dream world than look out there and see that people are the same everywhere.

Yes, it is true that in the US kids are probably taught to switch of their brains whenever they see a flag, and that doesn't happen in Germany. But I am grateful for that.

For me, people are the same. All humans are equal. That comes first, and then dividing them by arbitrary lines on a map is simply a violation of that.

And by the way, I don't know my national anthem either. I'd have to look up the lyrics. I have not sung it all my life. It'd feel moronic to try.

I dont really have anything to say to this except that you live your life a different way.

Not much else to say.

But why?
Because it is dumb.

There is no rational reason to be patriotic or nationalistic. It's pure, animalistic gut-feeling. Is it so complicated for you to understand that it disgusts me to do things without knowing the reason, to follow blindly in a herd of cattle?

I'm me. That's all I ever will be. I can be proud of my achievements. But those are the only things I can control.

But why?

Because your opinions of people are changed because of arbitrary lines drawn on a map -- you think of people as English, or American, or Dutch before anything else. Because you think you are better than others because you live in "the best country in the world." Maybe these two don't apply to everybody, but most of all because you are loyal to your country first and foremost.

Yes, it is true that in the US kids are probably taught to switch of their brains whenever they see a flag, and that doesn't happen in Germany. But I am grateful for that.What? The teaching or the switching off the brains on seeing a flag? :p

But why?
Nationalism is a feeling of national superiority. If you feel that your your nation is so superior, then who are you superrior to? In order to support feelings of nationalism, you have to have some other country or ethnicity to point and laugh at, like the Third World.

Historically, nationalism was the cornerstone of facist and Nazi governments. It definitely does not exist in that intensity anymore, but it still can be dangerous when a country begins to believe it is superior to everyone else. On an individual level, nationalism surpresses individuality. You start to think in terms of what is good for the country over what is good for yourself, and with the right propaganda or training, a nationalistic citizen could commit acts on par with religious fanaticist suicide attacks.

Because it is dumb.

There is no rational reason to be patriotic or nationalistic. It's pure, animalistic gut-feeling. Is it so complicated for you to understand that it disgusts me to do things without knowing the reason, to follow blindly in a herd of cattle?

I'm me. That's all I ever will be. I can be proud of my achievements. But those are the only things I can control.
Yet if your contributions to the nation are something to be proud of, can you not be proud of a nation that does well? I am proud of the EU for a number of reasons.

Yet if your contributions to the nation are something to be proud of, can you not be proud of a nation that does well? I am proud of the EU for a number of reasons.

You can be proud of your nation for its policies and such. I'm talking about this definition of nationalism:

the belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

This is what worries me. You can like your nation all you want -- just don't let your pride cloud your judgement.

Because your opinions of people are changed because of arbitrary lines drawn on a map -- you think of people as English, or American, or Dutch before anything else. Because you think you are better than others because you live in "the best country in the world." Maybe these two don't apply to everybody, but most of all because you are loyal to your country first and foremost.

Ok, lets say I shouldnt be loyal to my country first an foremost, where should I be loyal to, in your opinion?

Ok, lets say I shouldnt be loyal to my country first an foremost, where should I be loyal to, in your opinion?

Mankind in general. Loyalty towards a nation breeds war.

Mankind in general. Loyalty towards a nation breeds war.
I am merely loyal to myself. Seeing as the EU supports my continued well-being, my loyalty extends to it.

I've been looking at my screen for a decent amount of time trying to sort out what I want to type, but I realized I'm not going to even know what I think until I get in the mix and make a few points msyelf, so apologies if this becomes a bit of a ramble.

I'll start with the 1800's, since that's about the time immigration started at a large scale. There were tensions between all the different people and lots of nifty new racial slurs were invented, and it was a pretty tough time. But the tough times ended and people came out of it with a sense of unity. None of them ignored their differences or even necessarily respected each other's heritage, but there was a greater sense of what it meant to be American.

Fastforward to slavery. Everyone in America and damn near everyone in other countries knows that's a bit of a crappy time in history, just as clearly as everyone knows about Germans and their nationalist streak. When slavery ended there were some pretty hostile relations that took a long time to resolve, but I think the wounds are starting to heal over.

But no sooner does this happen than we come into contact with a brand new culture that starts entering the borders. Just like every other time in American history, relations start out crappy. But in time, disputes come and go, and America is born again. The state of this country is not about the failings of multiculturalism, it's just a bump in the road. And what we need to resolve it is debate, even heated debate, to make change happen. If you think about it, that's what a melting pot is all about.

And if you think about it, that's kind of what American culture is about too.

I've been looking at my screen for a decent amount of time trying to sort out what I want to type, but I realized I'm not going to even know what I think until I get in the mix and make a few points msyelf, so apologies if this becomes a bit of a ramble.

I'll start with the 1800's, since that's about the time immigration started at a large scale. There were tensions between all the different people and lots of nifty new racial slurs were invented, and it was a pretty tough time. But the tough times ended and people came out of it with a sense of unity. None of them ignored their differences or even necessarily respected each other's heritage, but there was a greater sense of what it meant to be American.

Fastforward to slavery. Everyone in America and damn near everyone in other countries knows that's a bit of a crappy time in history, just as clearly as everyone knows about Germans and their nationalist streak. When slavery ended there were some pretty hostile relations that took a long time to resolve, but I think the wounds are starting to heal over.

But no sooner does this happen than we come into contact with a brand new culture that starts entering the borders. Just like every other time in American history, relations start out crappy. But in time, disputes come and go, and America is born again. The state of this country is not about the failings of multiculturalism, it's just a bump in the road. And what we need to resolve it is debate, even heated debate, to make change happen. If you think about it, that's what a melting pot is all about.

And if you think about it, that's kind of what American culture is about too.
I agree with you, accept that back then there was an onous put on, at the very least, learning the language. They didn't print government records in 50 languages in 1890. They also didn't teach class in three or four. If you wanted to make something of yourself you buckled down and learned the language and the culture and you assimilated. Now we are facing a deluge. Within the next decade English will be a minority language in much of the Southwestern US. How are political candidates going to run for office? How are schools going to integrate, as was the intent of the integration campaign in the 70s and 80s? I fear the Southwest, including California which is singly responsible for much of the economic and military migt of the US, may end up being our Quebec. Again, I have no problem with people immigrating here, I just want them to do it legally, I want the rate slowed and I want them to learn our language and customs just as I would expect to were I to immigrate somewhere else.

Because it is dumb.

There is no rational reason to be patriotic or nationalistic. It's pure, animalistic gut-feeling.
Humans are not entirely rational beings. We have emotions which should be acknowledged. We shouldn't be forced to be rational all the time.

I am not nationalistic, but I am patriotic. I like to support my fellow humans rather than just live an utterly self-serving life.

Humans are not entirely rational beings. We have emotions which should be acknowledged. We shouldn't be forced to be rational all the time.
Probably not. But it is a part of ourselves that we need to be eternally vigilant of. If we let that part take over (and that is what nationalism is, often enough - and I consider it the same as religious fundamentalism), there is bound to be trouble.

I am not nationalistic, but I am patriotic. I like to support my fellow humans rather than just live an utterly self-serving life.
You can help other people. No problem.
The problem comes when you start to differentiate between people from your country and people from other countries.