NationStates Jolt Archive

"Without civility, there is no civilization."

--from "The Opposite of a Great Lie," column by Spider Robinson, reprinted in his book "The Crazy Years: Reflections of a Science Fiction Original."

"Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms...but a dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than a riot. This symptom is especially serious in that an individual displaying it never thinks of it as a sign of ill health, but as proof of his/her strength."

--from "Friday," by Robert Anson Heinlein, quoted in "Phone-y Manners," column by Spider Robinson, reprinted in "The Crazy Years."

"Our society is a huge underdesigned machine composed of over 30 million cranky, creaky gears meshing together. Moving parts in contact require lubrication. The only social lubrication we have is good manners...If we fail to keep the machine oiled, even where it doesn't show, even where no mechanic can be found liable for failing to do so, it will seize up...and we will all die. Badly."

--also from "Phone-y Manners"

[Bibliographical information:
Robinson, Spider. The Crazy Years: Reflections of a Science Fiction Original. Dallas, TX: BenBella Books, 2004.]

The sentiments of the above quotes do not necessarily reflect the views of the poster. I do not vouch for the sociological or anthropological authority of these statements or authors. Quotes are intended to stimulate discussion, debate, and other intellectual discourse. I do assert that no quotes are taken out of context in such a way that they may reflect sentiments other than those originally intended by the authors. Any further posts made by me on this thread reflect my own views, whereas this introductory thread is merely intended to introduce the subject of discussion.

Discuss...

The first recognisable human civilisation was Sumerian, founded in Mesopotamia, with some buildings up to 8,000 years old surviving to this day. The staple diet consisted of a fermented soup of barley. Drunk on a daily basis, the Sumerian Empire lasted for over three thousand years.

Their successors the Babylonians clocked up another millennium with the government, priesthood and civil service enjoying state beer rations of several litres per day.

I wonder what standard of civility was enjoyed by these, the longest-lasting human civilisations, you fucking bastard. :mad: I love you man. :( :fluffle:

Can anyone give a clear definition of a civilization. Do you need ethics, morals, prinicples, religion, beliefs, etc.

Can anyone give a clear definition of a civilization. Do you need ethics, morals, prinicples, religion, beliefs, etc.
No, you need a written tax code and a civil service.

No, you need a written tax code and a civil service.

I was targeting the philosophical side of things. Practicality has an answer to everything but a solution to nothing.

I was targeting the philosophical side of things. Practicality has an answer to everything but a solution to nothing.
Practical considerations, and a system thereof, is one of the hallmarks of civilisation. The Germanic (ish) barbarian tribes of the Roman era no doubt had their own sense of morality and spirituality. But they were not a civilisation as we would recognise the construct today. And that's what civilisation is - however much it hurts your philosophical idealism, it is a bureaucratic construct.

Practical considerations, and a system thereof, is one of the hallmarks of civilisation. The Germanic (ish) barbarian tribes of the Roman era no doubt had their own sense of morality and spirituality. But they were not a civilisation as we would recognise the construct today. And that's what civilisation is - however much it hurts your philosophical idealism, it is a bureaucratic construct.

But do we really need a bureacracy? Wouldn't a code of laws be better?

But do we really need a bureacracy? Wouldn't a code of laws be better?
Chicken and egg, my friend. Chicken and egg. ;)

Load of bollocks as far as I can tell...........

But do we really need a bureacracy? Wouldn't a code of laws be better?

What?...How would you create and enforce a "code of laws" for 100s of millions of people without creating bureacracy? The short answer is yes it is unavoidable.

No, you need a written tax code and a civil service.

and big government buildings.

or was that on v.gordon childe's list secondary characteristics?

To be civilized means that you think that your society is better than the others. :)