NationStates Jolt Archive


It's not religion. It's not science. So what IS it???

Eutrusca
26-02-2006, 19:46
COMMENTARY: So what is psychotherapy? It's not religion, it's not really science in the true sense of the term. I have seen people show radical improvement from psychotherapy, but I've also seen them throw thousands of dollars away for no improvement whatsoever. I've also seen people improve to the same degree by talking with life coaches, most of whom are definitly NOT psychotherapists. I rather suspect that a sympathetic ear from someone with experience in listening and perhaps some experience with Socratic dialogue, can result in considerable improvement. Your thoughts on this?


A Mind Is a Terrible Thing to Measure (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/26/opinion/26phillips.html?th&emc=th)


By ADAM PHILLIPS
Published: February 26, 2006
London

PSYCHOTHERAPY is having yet another identity crisis. It has manifested itself in two recent trends in the profession in America: the first involves trying to make therapy into more of a "hard science" by putting a new emphasis on measurable factors; the other is a growing belief among therapists that the standard practice of using talk therapy to discover traumas in a patient's past is not only unnecessary but can be injurious.

That psychotherapists of various orientations find themselves under pressure to prove to themselves and to society that they are doing a hard-core science — which was a leading theme of the landmark Evolution of Psychotherapy Conference in California in December — is not really surprising. Given the prestige and trust the modern world gives to scientific standards, psychotherapists, who always have to measure themselves against the medical profession, are going to want to demonstrate that they, too, deal in the predictable; that they, too, can provide evidence for the value of what they do.

And, obviously, if psychotherapy is going to attain scientific credibility, it won't do to involve such wishy-washy practices as "going back to childhood" or "reconstructing the past" — terms that when used with appropriate scorn can sound as though a person's past was akin to the past lives New Agers like to talk about.

Since at least the middle of the 19th century, Western societies have been divided between religious truth and scientific truth, but none of the new psychotherapies are trying to prove they are genuine religions. Nor is there much talk, outside of university literature departments, of psychotherapy trying to inhabit the middle ground of arts, in which truth and usefulness have traditionally been allowed a certain latitude (nobody measures Shakespeare or tries to prove his value).

It is, so to speak, symptomatic that psychotherapists are so keen to legitimize themselves as scientists: they want to fit in rather than create the taste by which they might be judged. One of the good things psychotherapy can do, like the arts, is show us the limits of what science can do for our welfare. The scientific method alone is never going to be enough, especially when we are working out how to live and who we can be.

In the so-called arts it has always been acknowledged that many of the things we value most — the gods and God, love and sexuality, mourning and amusement, character and inspiration, the past and the future — are neither measurable or predictable. Indeed, this may be one of the reasons they are so abidingly important to us. The things we value most, just like the things we most fear, tend to be those we have least control over.

This is not a reason to stop trying to control things — we should, for example, be doing everything we can to control pain — but it is a reason to work out in which areas of our lives control is both possible and beneficial. Trying to predict the unpredictable, like trying to will what cannot be willed, drives people crazy.

Just as we cannot know beforehand the effect on us of reading a book or of listening to music, every psychotherapy treatment, indeed every session, is unpredictable. Indeed, if it is not, it is a form of bullying, it is indoctrination. It is not news that most symptoms of so-called mental illness are efforts to control the environment, just like the science that claims to study them.

It would clearly be naïve for psychotherapists to turn a blind eye to science, or to be "against" scientific methodology. But the attempt to present psychotherapy as a hard science is merely an attempt to make it a convincing competitor in the marketplace. It is a sign, in other words, of a misguided wish to make psychotherapy both respectable and servile to the very consumerism it is supposed to help people deal with. (Psychotherapy turns up historically at the point at which traditional societies begin to break down and consumer capitalism begins to take hold.)

If psychotherapy has anything to offer — and this should always be in question — it should be something aside from the dominant trends in the culture. And this means now that its practitioners should not be committed either to making money or to trivializing the past or to finding a science of the soul.

If you have an eye test, if you buy a car, there are certain things you are entitled to expect. Your money buys you some minimal guarantees, some reliable results. The honest psychotherapist can provide no comparable assurances. She can promise only an informed willingness to listen, and the possibility of helpful comment.

By inviting the patient to talk, at length — and especially to talk about what really troubles him — something is opened up, but neither patient nor therapist can know beforehand what will be said by either of them, nor can they know the consequences of what they will say. Just creating a situation that has the potential to evoke previously repressed memories and thoughts and feelings and desires is an opportunity of immeasurable consequence, both good and bad. No amount of training and research, of statistics-gathering and empathy, can offset that unique uncertainty of the encounter.

As a treatment, psychotherapy is a risk, just as what actually happens in anyone's childhood is always going to be obscure and indefinite, but no less significant for being so. Psychotherapists are people whose experience tells them that certain risks are often worth taking, but more than this they cannot rightly say. There are always going to be casualties of therapy.

Psychotherapy makes use of a traditional wisdom holding that the past matters and that, surprisingly, talking can make people feel better — even if at first, for good reasons, they resist it. There is an appetite to talk and to be listened to, and an appetite to make time for doing those things.

Religion has historically been the language for people to talk about the things that mattered most to them, aided and abetted by the arts. Science has become the language that has helped people to know what they wanted to know, and get what they wanted to get. Psychotherapy has to occupy the difficult middle ground between them, but without taking sides. Since it is narrow-mindedness that we most often suffer from, we need our therapists to resist the allure of the fashionable certainties.


Adam Phillips is a psychoanalyst and the author, most recently, of "Going Sane: Maps of Happiness."
The Nazz
26-02-2006, 19:53
I've read another of Phillip's essays, titled "Houdini's Box." He's a fascinating writer and I highly recommend that essay.

As to this article, I would venture to say that what psychotherapy offers, at its best, is a non-judgmental listening ear for those people who don't have another source for such a thing, or who are afraid that their traditional sources are too close to the situation to be non-judgmental. There's something distancing about paying a person to listen to you that might make it easier to open up to him or her.
Eutrusca
26-02-2006, 19:55
I've read another of Phillip's essays, titled "Houdini's Box." He's a fascinating writer and I highly recommend that essay.

As to this article, I would venture to say that what psychotherapy offers, at its best, is a non-judgmental listening ear for those people who don't have another source for such a thing, or who are afraid that their traditional sources are too close to the situation to be non-judgmental. There's something distancing about paying a person to listen to you that might make it easier to open up to him or her.
I tend to agree, but that's certainly an expensive way to hire a sympathetic ear! :eek:
The Nazz
26-02-2006, 20:03
I tend to agree, but that's certainly an expensive way to hire a sympathetic ear! :eek:
Yeah, I imagine it is. But if your issues are serious enough to you, then maybe it's worth it. I've never had cause to go to a therapist, but I have friends who swear by them, and who spend significant money on them. Me, I tend to self-medicate. :D
The Half-Hidden
26-02-2006, 20:07
It's not religion. It's not science. So what IS it???
Maybe it's art?
Free Soviets
26-02-2006, 20:09
Maybe it's art?

or, failing that, pornography
Moto the Wise
26-02-2006, 20:10
There is a lot of evidence that there is more to it than just a sypathetic ear. There are a number of psycological methods that can help an individual to gain control in their life, a psychotherapist is usually simply someone who is well versed in these methods, and is also a good listener. (and before someone asks I know about the psycological methods due to having an interest in psycology and the mind; and I have myself used a couple to help a friend when he was having a confidence problem).
Revasser
26-02-2006, 20:16
Yeah, I imagine it is. But if your issues are serious enough to you, then maybe it's worth it. I've never had cause to go to a therapist, but I have friends who swear by them, and who spend significant money on them. Me, I tend to self-medicate. :D

Mmmm, self-medication.

Edit:

or, failing that, pornography

Mmmm, pornography.
Eutrusca
26-02-2006, 20:21
Maybe it's art?
I suspect you may be correct. It's for sure listening is an art. Survival is an art too, and IMHO those who have survived and come out relatively whole and sane, are often those in the best position to advise others.
Eutrusca
26-02-2006, 20:22
Mmmm, self-medication.

Mmmm, pornography.
Both of which are temporary palliatives. :p
Revasser
26-02-2006, 20:29
Both of which are temporary palliatives. :p

Sure, but if you combine them often enough and in great enough amounts, you can solve just about any problem!
Lunatic Goofballs
26-02-2006, 20:29
Art is a petty good dscription for it.

If it's a science, it's like the old story of four blind men feeling an elephant and trying to figure out what it is; each of them think it's something else until they get together and discuss it.

It's a science of trial and error, case studies and professional opinion being bound together into relatively loose theories that are almost as malleable as the minds they claim to label.
The Half-Hidden
26-02-2006, 20:30
or, failing that, pornography
Hey, pornography is art! At least, that's what the totally reliable and unbiased businessmen of the pornography industry say.
Dark Shadowy Nexus
26-02-2006, 23:12
Unlike religion at least Psycholoy evolves.
Undelia
26-02-2006, 23:16
The vast majority of today’s therapists are no better than chiropractors. They are simply trying to get people to keep coming back to them over and over again. Very few are actually interested in their clients’ well being.
Ifreann
26-02-2006, 23:19
or, failing that, pornography

Well, you win this thread, no other discussion is necessary.[/serious]
iLock.
Oh wait, I'm not a mod.
oops
Kzord
26-02-2006, 23:19
Not everything non-scientific is religion... it's just an irrational method.
Saint Curie
26-02-2006, 23:29
Unlike religion at least Psycholoy evolves.

I've seen a few religions adapt their ideologies to increase membership (or satisfy prevailing social norms), but I suppose its not really "evolution".

In an imperfect sense, though, it could be observed that relgions undergo a sort of "natural selection" as adherents vote with their feet. Although doctrinal changes are usually deliberate (and not mutative), new "traits" of belief could be said to endure or evaporate based on their viability (or theological usefulness).

But I think psychology, if it can be viewed as a unified practice, perhaps changes in the same way...
Randomlittleisland
26-02-2006, 23:38
I've seen a few religions adapt their ideologies to increase membership (or satisfy prevailing social norms), but I suppose its not really "evolution".

In an imperfect sense, though, it could be observed that relgions undergo a sort of "natural selection" as adherents vote with their feet. Although doctrinal changes are usually deliberate (and not mutative), new "traits" of belief could be said to endure or evaporate based on their viability (or theological usefulness).

But I think psychology, if it can be viewed as a unified practice, perhaps changes in the same way...

I prefer to think of religions as snowballs rolling down a hill. They pick up the snow that they pass over and it becomes part of the snowball. Eventually there isn't much of the original snowball left.
Eutrusca
26-02-2006, 23:43
Not everything non-scientific is religion... it's just an irrational method.
non-scientific =/= irrationality

There is such a thing as emotional intelligence/intuition. Granted, it's not valid for most things, but there are times when intuition will carry you further than rationality can.
Straughn
26-02-2006, 23:47
Mmmm, self-medication.

Edit:



Mmmm, pornography.
Are you insinuating something?
Saint Curie
26-02-2006, 23:49
I prefer to think of religions as snowballs rolling down a hill. They pick up the snow that they pass over and it becomes part of the snowball. Eventually there isn't much of the original snowball left.

Puts a new spin on the phrase "a snowball's chance in hell"...
Kzord
26-02-2006, 23:53
non-scientific =/= irrationality

There is such a thing as emotional intelligence/intuition. Granted, it's not valid for most things, but there are times when intuition will carry you further than rationality can.

So, its not irrational because it's intuitive, and intuition isn't rational. So, it's rational because it isn't rational. Right...
Saint Curie
27-02-2006, 00:02
non-scientific =/= irrationality

There is such a thing as emotional intelligence/intuition. Granted, it's not valid for most things, but there are times when intuition will carry you further than rationality can.

The risk with this idea is that intuition, because it is unbounded by rational thought, is free to carry us to things we merely want or need to believe.

And since the unscientific is unfalsifiable, there's no way to mitigate that risk.

In those instances when "intuition" has merit, it comes not from need, but is rather the expression of ambient and continuous analysis.

So, ultimately, there is "intuition" born from what we want to believe, and "intuition" that is just subconscious rational thought. This nebulous dichotomy makes it easy to assign the value of one to the other.
The Archregimancy
27-02-2006, 00:20
I have seen people show radical improvement from psychotherapy, but I've also seen them throw thousands of dollars away for no improvement whatsoever. I've also seen people improve to the same degree by talking with life coaches, most of whom are definitly NOT psychotherapists. I rather suspect that a sympathetic ear from someone with experience in listening and perhaps some experience with Socratic dialogue, can result in considerable improvement. Your thoughts on this?

I spent some two years in therapy 7-8 years ago. Despite this, I have no judgement on the mechanics or theory of psychotherapy, but I do tend to agree with the statement that "a sympathetic ear from someone with experience in listening and perhaps some experience with Socratic dialogue, can result in considerable improvement" largely because it did result in considerable improvement.

Now, the obvious question is whether I had to pay someone for that sympathetic Socratic ear. In my case, I think I did. For a variety of reasons the problems I was dealing with at the time were best addressed through a professional capacity rather than through the help of friends of family. But that won't be the case for everyone.

I'll also note that felt no pressure to stay in therapy when my 2 years had run its course, and was free to move on with my life, and was able to pay a concession fee of GBP 10 a week (I was a postgrad student at the time). So in my case cost and pressure to continue weren't issues - but I have no idea as to how typical I am/was.

So my ultimate judgement is that it was helpful and appropriate for me, but I recognise that it won't always be helpful and appropriate for everyone.
Dark Shadowy Nexus
27-02-2006, 01:47
I've seen a few religions adapt their ideologies to increase membership (or satisfy prevailing social norms), but I suppose its not really "evolution".

In an imperfect sense, though, it could be observed that relgions undergo a sort of "natural selection" as adherents vote with their feet. Although doctrinal changes are usually deliberate (and not mutative), new "traits" of belief could be said to endure or evaporate based on their viability (or theological usefulness).

But I think psychology, if it can be viewed as a unified practice, perhaps changes in the same way...

Nah

I think when it comes to psychology the the psychologists whant to get be better to do better so they look at at what they've done and try to improve on it.

Religion is based on the conscept that at it's start the said religion is all right all the time. If religion adapted it would show itself to have been flawed and flaws can not be admitted to when it comes to religious doctrine. Also much of religion is a "sin" to change. You can't recognise and accept that sex is OK when it's a "sin" to be OK with sex.
Utracia
27-02-2006, 01:54
It is just another profession that you have to spend years in school to acheive the rights to. Then if lucky you get to charge a few hundred bucks an hour.

Hey, just like a lawyer! Probably the morals of a lawyer also. ;)
Saint Curie
27-02-2006, 02:30
Nah

I think when it comes to psychology the the psychologists whant to get be better to do better so they look at at what they've done and try to improve on it.

Religion is based on the conscept that at it's start the said religion is all right all the time. If religion adapted it would show itself to have been flawed and flaws can not be admitted to when it comes to religious doctrine. Also much of religion is a "sin" to change. You can't recognise and accept that sex is OK when it's a "sin" to be OK with sex.

Not all religion holds itself to a standard of immutability. Look at Mormons. They've reversed several main doctrines (not that they don't retain several others) ranging from who is eligible for the priesthood to the dietary restrictions (instituted by a successive leader, and not part of the original founder's doctrine).

The fact is, while religions like to posture themselves as holders of the definitive truth, the specific orthodoxies are not always enduring.

As to psychologists adjusting their methods in light of new research (a good habit, in my view, so long as the research is examined rigorously), psychology is an industry that needs to keep customers, and they change accordingly. I believe this parallels religion.