NationStates Jolt Archive

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Having followed the story since before the Mirage deal was even off the table, it seems in my mind that the Rafale has the best change of being chosen, especially if the acquisition wish increases.

If the Indians want a carrier aircraft, The rafale is the best option for filling both IAF and the Indian Navy's wishes. The IAF will probably ask for the whole 180+ Rafales for about 10b, Dassault will happily agree, and in a good few years, we will start to see Rafale's flying alongside 2000's and SU-30MK's....

Either that, or they stick with their cooperation with the Russians and get Su-33s. Cheaper too...

if india really wants to play with the big boys it needs to build its own major weapons system even if they are knock offs of someone else's at first. this includes the stuff people are willing to sell them as well as what they are not. if you buy a weapons system from another nation you are always beholden to them for spare parts and replacements as well as technical support. if india really intends to be a world power in the next generation it needs to get out of this still quasi patron/client relationship with the so called advanced industrial nations.

Either that, or they stick with their cooperation with the Russians and get Su-33s. Cheaper too...

They have already been cooperating with both nations, and France is playing a continually growing role in Indian growth. India knows that if it bought Dassault planes, that the French would be quite happy to play even more ball.

Besides, another Suhkoi? The 30's are pretty good, but if they bought 33's, they would need to get something else for the IAF, while the Rafale would do well for both.

Its a bad idea to invest in russian equipment, as its R&D will not grow as fast in the future, and you want to get in with those headed to the future.

if india really intends to be a world power in the next generation it needs to get out of this still quasi patron/client relationship with the so called advanced industrial nations.
That's what they're doing though. They are designing two new fighters (LCA and MCA), with some ambitious technology particularly for the latter, and they are Russia's major partner in their development of new Sukhois and Migs.

Not to forget the Su-30MKI, which is one of the best jets in service right now, and an Indian-produced upgrade to the Flanker.

if you buy a weapons system from another nation you are always beholden to them for spare parts and replacements as well as technical support.
Then they should buy from the US - everything will be outsourced to India.

oh right then, my bad... carry on.

India knows that if it bought Dassault planes, that the French would be quite happy to play even more ball.
Well, true. Afterall, it's not like the Rafale has been making Dassault a lot of money on the export market. But when I'm sitting in glass houses...:p

Its a bad idea to invest in russian equipment, as its R&D will not grow as fast in the future, and you want to get in with those headed to the future.
I don't know about that. They have some pretty neat projects going (like that "plasma stealth" thing), and Putin is not one to turn down funding for an ambitious military project.

That's what they're doing though. They are designing two new fighters (LCA and MCA), with some ambitious technology particularly for the latter, and they are Russia's major partner in their development of new Sukhois and Migs.

Not to forget the Su-30MKI, which is one of the best jets in service right now, and an Indian-produced upgrade to the Flanker.

Yah, see I have to agree with that totally. They are looking to develop their own domestic aerospace industry - which you and I have discussed before NL - and the french deal doesn't seemingly offer that.

(BTW NL I just found out that I will be in deutschland briefly in the next 2 mos. I'll wave hello for you.)

Well, true. Afterall, it's not like the Rafale has been making Dassault a lot of money on the export market. But when I'm sitting in glass houses...:p


I don't know about that. They have some pretty neat projects going (like that "plasma stealth" thing), and Putin is not one to turn down funding for an ambitious military project.

All this russian tech is nice and dandy, except we won't see it in planes anytime soon. I don't see any in-service planes with forward swept wings, vector-controlled thrust(or does the F-22 have those?), etc. I don't see any signifigant russian tech since the collapse of the USSR in modern planes.

Now, if you were looking at missile technology, that might be a different story.

and the french deal doesn't seemingly offer that.

Not directly...

Scenma has already been helping India develop engines, and is looking into working with it on engines that could be put in the Rafale. Dassault already lets india build jaguars under license, and is offering india some high-tech equipment, which it could easily reverse engineer. France is also just a good partner with the Indians, and French money + engineers in the future are a possibility for indo-french cooperation in Indian homegrown aircraft.

Then they should buy from the US - everything will be outsourced to India.

Would not be smart. "Hey, the pakistani's use F-16's, lets get some, even if the US ones couldn't beat our Su-30's". They will go with planes that are either proven with them, or likely to be(Su-30's obvious, Mirage-2000's were used with the Indians in very successful CAS, and the Rafale looks to just be better than the 2000).

vector-controlled thrust(or does the F-22 have those)
I'm pretty sure the F-22 has 2D vector-thrust, ie up and down. As does the Su-30MKI, incidentally.

Now, if you were looking at missile technology, that might be a different story.
True, although particularly European firms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T) are quickly catching up (probably because they're developing from scratch, while the US bureaucracy/corruption sorta requires them to stick with missiles that are no longer all that up-to-date). But if I "had to" buy an ICBM, it would probably be a Russian one. :D

Not directly...

Scenma has already been helping India develop engines, and is looking into working with it on engines that could be put in the Rafale. Dassault already lets india build jaguars under license, and is offering india some high-tech equipment, which it could easily reverse engineer. France is also just a good partner with the Indians, and French money + engineers in the future are a possibility for indo-french cooperation in Indian homegrown aircraft.

I also know a lot of french that are opposed to the airbus deal with china. It's not certain at all that the french will be willing to trade so much technology with another state. Or at least not as much as Russia is.

Though I agree that nothing is set in stone.

I'm pretty sure the F-22 has 2D vector-thrust, ie up and down. As does the Su-30MKI, incidentally.


True, although particularly European firms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS-T) are quickly catching up (probably because they're developing from scratch, while the US bureaucracy/corruption sorta requires them to stick with missiles that are no longer all that up-to-date). But if I "had to" buy an ICBM, it would probably be a Russian one. :D

Yes, I have generally seen Russia and France as the premier missile makers... RPG-7/Milan and HOT, R-73 and Mica, Exocet and... that one cool russian one, etc...

Apparently, the russians are also looking at a supersonic ICBM capable of changing target mid-flight... crazy, especially since putin apparently let chirac in on the secret.

Apart from military considerations, there are some political considerations too (and monetary considerations, if you know what I mean). All these have muddled the Indian quest for a multi role combat aircraft very much.

I am so confused that I do not even have a favorite and I wish they would make a decision and get it over with especially since US is going to deliver some 80 (?) F-16s to Pakistan which would erode the complete air superiority which we enjoy now.