NationStates Jolt Archive

Today ther were Riots in Dublin, Ireland. A loyalist parade was supose to march in Dublin and the rioters stoped it! :)

Im happy they stoped it. Loyalists have no right being and spreading there word in the capitol of THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND!

Little known fact: You can't just have a spontaneous parade through the streets of a large city like Dublin. Some level of government authorization was needed for that parade. Now, if you are so outraged with Loyalists marching in Dublin, ask yourself: Which one of my elected officials allowed this parade?

Today ther were Riots in Dublin, Ireland. A loyalist parade was supose to march in Dublin and the rioters stoped it! :)

Im happy they stoped it. Loyalists have no right being and spreading there word in the capitol of THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND!I say Loyalists have the rigth to express themselves. and so do the others.

At least thats how it should be in a free society.

Which one of my elected officials allowed this parade?Whoever it was.. his political career is over.

Little known fact: You can't just have a spontaneous parade through the streets of a large city like Dublin. Some level of government authorization was needed for that parade. Now, if you are so outraged with Loyalists marching in Dublin, ask yourself: Which one of my elected officials allowed this parade?

It was our stupit P.M. Bertie Ahern who is afraid of London

Freedom of expression - such an evil concept.

Yes. Actually It can be

Yes. Actually It can be

So what other political positions do you think should be prohibited from being expressed?

What about yours?

It was our stupit P.M. Bertie Ahern who is afraid of Londonwell.. kiss the Bertie good-bye. :D :D :cool: :D

So what other political positions do you think should be prohibited from being expressed?
I think all and everyone should be allowed to express their mind.

So what other political positions do you think should be prohibited from being expressed?

What about yours?

Those loyalists walked into dublin wanting a riot. They know they couldent go to dublin with out at least a protest. So, They wanted the violence! That can not be tolorated.

I think all and everyone should be allowed to express their mind.

So do I. "Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters."

A fierce and diverse internal debate is essential to the health of any democratic society.

Those loyalists walked into dublin wanting a riot. They know they couldent go to dublin with out at least a protest. So, They wanted the violence! That can not be tolorated.

The fact remains that they were engaging in a peaceful expression of their political viewpoints, and that should not be prohibited.

Lots of movements have protested, knowing they were going to be attacked. The US Civil Rights Movement, for example.

It was our stupit P.M. Bertie Ahern who is afraid of London

Then express your displeasure with him at the polls. Don't burn down sections of your own capital city.

Then express your displeasure with him at the polls. Don't burn down sections of your own capital city.

If I remember correctly than they kind of can't. They elect a President who then in turn picks the Taoiseach, or Prime Minister. I believe that this is how it is done over there, am I correct?

NOTE: I got that information from Wikipedia.

So do I. "Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters."

A fierce and diverse internal debate is essential to the health of any democratic society.

well yeah even in the most repressive nations you have the right to express the party line and show your support for the government. if you don't have the freedom to say the unpopular you don't really have freedom. that's why i oppose the nazis, but also hate speech legislation.

If I remember correctly than they kind of can't. They elect a President who then in turn picks the Taoiseach, or Prime Minister. I believe that this is how it is done over there, am I correct?

NOTE: I got that information from Wikipedia.

The point is, as long as Ireland has a system of government that resembles a democracy, there is someone they can vote out of office or similarly pressure.

If I remember correctly than they kind of can't. They elect a President who then in turn picks the Taoiseach, or Prime Minister. I believe that this is how it is done over there, am I correct?

NOTE: I got that information from Wikipedia.

No, we vote for our Taoiseach. The Pres just inaugrates him in

No, we vote for our Taoiseach. If I was you I would put up some banners calling him "Orangist Dog/traitor".. and/or "Queens's Lap Dog".. and picket in front of his house..

express yourself.

Those loyalists walked into dublin wanting a riot. They know they couldent go to dublin with out at least a protest. So, They wanted the violence! That can not be tolorated.

While I agree that it may not really have been the smartest decision to allow them a demonstration on O'Connell Street on a Saturday, I'm honestly ashamed by the reaction of the rioters. And I'm not even Irish myself!
If anything, those rioters made a case for the Loyalists by resorting to aggression and violence, and even continueing on long after the Loaylists had all left Dublin again. Their behaviour was inexcusable and disgraceful.

I crossed Parnell Square at around 11 am yesterday without knowing there would be a demonstration, and thus had a look at the group of Loyalists shortly before the demonstration was to go ahead. There were about 30-40 people there, with about double the number of police around. Even if they had come looking for trouble, there's no way they could have caused any if it hadn't been for those harebrained rioters!
No, there's one side to lay the blame on for this, and it's not that handful of Loyalists.

It was a provocative act. The people who rioted were as bad.

That said, Dublin has every right to riot, it is a great place if you are rich, but otherwise you are screwed.

It was a provocative act. The people who rioted were as bad.

That said, Dublin has every right to riot, it is a great place if you are rich, but otherwise you are screwed.

I'm far from rich, and I find it a great place... I'm not quite sure what you mean.
Yes, it was provocative. And so are those silly pics of aborted babies that are on display every Saturady on that booth of those campaingers to ensure that abortion remains illegal, right next to the GPO. And you don't see people throwing stones at them, do you?

I'm far from rich, and I find it a great place... I'm not quite sure what you mean.
Yes, it was provocative. And so are those silly pics of aborted babies that are on display every Saturady on that booth of those campaingers to ensure that abortion remains illegal, right next to the GPO. And you don't see people throwing stones at them, do you?

True enough.

I would Dublin was not a fine example of social cohesion and there are a reasonable amount of discontent youths. It does mean that it might be easier to start a riot there than it would otherwise be.

This is written by a man from north west England, so writing of riots is not a case of one-upmanship.

True enough.

I would Dublin was not a fine example of social cohesion and there are a reasonable amount of discontent youths. It does mean that it might be easier to start a riot there than it would otherwise be.

This is written by a man from north west England, so writing of riots is not a case of one-upmanship.

Discontent, yes. A good number, I'd say. But not any more or less than in most other European or American cities. And that is neither reason nor excuse for behaviour like this.
Now, if they had been demonstrating about their economic situation and the demonstration had gotten out of hand, that would be a different matter. As it stands, they injured 6 gardai and made real fools out of themselves.

Im happy they stoped it. Loyalists have no right being and spreading there word in the capitol of THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND!


Pity about that whole right to "express freely their convictions and opinions" in the constitution, eh?

Discontent, yes. A good number, I'd say. But not any more or less than in most other European or American cities. And that is neither reason nor excuse for behaviour like this.
Now, if they had been demonstrating about their economic situation and the demonstration had gotten out of hand, that would be a different matter. As it stands, they injured 6 gardai and made real fools out of themselves.


"demonstrating about their economic situation" Riots happen in other European or American cities, and I cannot think of any where the main bone of contention has been fiscal policy alterations in the present period of Parliament. I realise that will seem facitious, but I am unsure how to express myself more clearly.

People riot because they are young, angry and feel shafted. It is interesting that it happened in winter rather than summer, but I am not sure I would see this riot has particuarly different to those of other places in Europe.

That they injured six gardai in the process rather adds to the impression of disaffected, angry youth. I do not live in Dublin, and I have my impressions from riots in Northern England and occasional trips to Dubiln. If I am missing things I would be pleased to learn.

Pity about that whole right to "express freely their convictions and opinions" in the constitution, eh?

It is a right, but it is not compulsary.

People riot because they are young, angry and feel shafted. It is interesting that it happened in winter rather than summer, but I am not sure I would see this riot has particuarly different to those of other places in Europe.

That they injured six gardai in the process rather adds to the impression of disaffected, angry youth. I do not live in Dublin, and I have my impressions from riots in Northern England and occasional trips to Dubiln. If I am missing things I would be pleased to learn.


Would the Reclaim The Streets protests of 2002 fall under the category of 'demonstrating about their economic situation'? - although it should bve noted that the Guards are widely seen to have been the ones responsible for escalating the events into the status of riots due to their heavy-handedness.

It is a right, but it is not compulsary.

Huh? Do you think I am suggesting that people must express their opinions? No, rather I am saying that those Irish citizens who believe in Loyalism have a constitutional right to express their opinions.

Huh? Do you think I am suggesting that people must express their opinions? No, rather I am saying that those Irish citizens who believe in Loyalism have a constitutional right to express their opinions.

"Do you think I am suggesting that people must express their opinions?"

No, but it seems that a march, rather than a stationary ceremony is going to be provocative. Whilst they are able to do it, it seems disingenuous to complain that it then provokes a reaction.

I hope I do not give the impression of trying to justify the rioting.

I already started a thread about this (and on the right day too).
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=470690

Today ther were Riots in Dublin, Ireland. A loyalist parade was supose to march in Dublin and the rioters stoped it! :)

Im happy they stoped it. Loyalists have no right being and spreading there word in the capitol of THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND!
You're happy that a bunch of scumbags attacked a peaceful demonstration and hospitalised six of the Garda Síochána? Thanks for showing your true colours, traitor.

I really disagree with Loyalist politics, but they have a right to march here, and we shoud act like adults. Thanks to people like you they have been handed a great propaganda victory, they're probably telling everyone what a bunch of sectarian assholes Dublin people are.

Pity about that whole right to "express freely their convictions and opinions" in the constitution, eh?

Good point. That provision only causes major problems. I say we just be honest and castrate anyone who disagrees with my views. Who needs free speech, a free press, or a free people anyway? Especially when I know I'm right? Perhaps the Nazi's had the right idea, eh, but just didn't have the right beliefs, huh?

well.. kiss the Bertie good-bye. :D
No, not really. You're misinterpreting Thomish's position as being a popular one. He's in a minority of backward, hate-filled people.

Those loyalists walked into dublin wanting a riot. They know they couldent go to dublin with out at least a protest. So, They wanted the violence! That can not be tolorated.
They probably expected to provoke a protest, and I would have joined a peaceful protest against them, but I totally condemn any violent protest. The unionists were peaceful in this case. The responsibility for the violence is all on those who were violent.

If I remember correctly than they kind of can't. They elect a President who then in turn picks the Taoiseach, or Prime Minister. I believe that this is how it is done over there, am I correct?

Technically, yes, but not in practical terms. In reality, the leader of the political party that gets the most votes gets to be Taoiseach. So if people want to get rid of Bertie, they either vote Fianna Fáil out of office, or join the party and mount a leadership challenge!

Lots of movements have protested, knowing they were going to be attacked. The US Civil Rights Movement, for example.
Or the Catholic civil rights movement.


No, there's one side to lay the blame on for this, and it's not that handful of Loyalists.
You're damn right.

That said, Dublin has every right to riot, it is a great place if you are rich, but otherwise you are screwed.
Actually, you don't have a right to riot. You have a right to protest peacefully. There are a lot of things I would do to improve Dublin for the poor (I agree that it's way unequal, but hey, we're not as bad as America!), but that's a different discussion.

Actually, you don't have a right to riot. You have a right to protest peacefully. There are a lot of things I would do to improve Dublin for the poor (I agree that it's way unequal, but hey, we're not as bad as America!), but that's a different discussion.

Yes, fair enough, 'right' was the wrong word. I meant that this situation is more mlikely to lead to a riot.

"Originally Posted by Bodies Without Organs
Pity about that whole right to "express freely their convictions and opinions" in the constitution, eh?"

I am reluctant to agree, but OK; I too vote for abolishing any freedon of expression.

I would just like to point out that these orangemen are out and out biggotts and racists, im glad they wernt allowed march. I agree with freedom of speech but Orangemen just spread hate and antagonise people, they knew well that a riot would happen, they wanted something to use against republicans because since the IRA disbanded and all they have nothing. And a large section of people rioting were not republicans, they were jus thieves taking advantage of the protest so they could loot and rob.

I would just like to point out that these orangemen are out and out biggotts and racists, im glad they wernt allowed march. I agree with freedom of speech but Orangemen just spread hate and antagonise people, they knew well that a riot would happen, they wanted something to use against republicans
Legally, they were allowed to march. Those rioters gave them something to use against Republicans and probably Irish people and Catholics in general too.

I was there and took these pictures of the violence

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/Irishteen/82a08bcc.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/Irishteen/ab7c31c8.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/Irishteen/b2ee02a3.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/Irishteen/a301f51c.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/Irishteen/409c034f.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/Irishteen/0b57acfc.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/Irishteen/5443ae06.jpg

Legally, they were allowed to march. Those rioters gave them something to use against Republicans and probably Irish people and Catholics in general too.
I know, but they had deffinatly expected ,if not wanted, to be attacked for political advantage. And even if Republican Sinn Fein (NOT sinn fein) hadn't organised the protest, there still would have been violence

I was there and took these pictures of the violence
Thanks for the photos. Brings it home to us on the other side of the pond. My wife's grandparents hailed from County Cork. We been there 4 times. Love the country, and the people (whether in the Republic or "6 Counties") are by far the nicest, friendliest you'll meet anywhere. Hate to see O'Connell Street in that setting.

Those loyalists walked into dublin wanting a riot. They know they couldent go to dublin with out at least a protest. So, They wanted the violence! That can not be tolorated.

This isn't serious, right?

You are seriously arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to do something because someone ELSE might protest it?

I wonder if you honestly apply that logic across the board.

Interesting to see how thin the layer of supposed liberalism is in Ireland. Protestants, loyalists or anyone else has a right to protest or demonstrate in a free country. Ireland needs to wake up and join the 21st century. It wasn't so long ago that civil rights demonstrators in the North were being treated in the same way as the loyalists were yesterday. Hypocrisy needs to be exposed whereever it surfaces.

PS: I am Irish and shocked at the intolerance that lurks underneath our country's pretensions.

...
The offical position was the march could go ahead and indeed any real republican would allow it to do so especially given SFs statements.

The rioters where mostly ignorant yobs, they beat up RTE's Charely Bird, a prominent correspondent calling him an "orange bastard" who in the troubles was the IRA's contact with the press and deliberately targeted other reporters, there were anarchist flags within the riot who aparently took the oppurtunity to set a great number of cars on fire includeing my cousins. This "counter march" / riot was nothing more than an excuse for random violence and looting organised specificaly for the purpose.

I ask one thing. Could in the USA a white pride march happen in a black area without response? Would the US goverment have the onions to allow the real meaning of democracy and freedom?

This riot shamed any real republican.

There are Republican marches in the North, therefore there must be loyalist marches in Dublin. The fact this was organised by a group with dubious motives is neither here nor there, as Unionists/Loyalists could say the same on other occassions. It undermines the republican movement as a whole.

If theres going to be bomb-scares and mass protests, save it for when they ask the Queen over.

The KKK marched through Toledo recently, and in video footage, it looked like the bloods sparked a street riot.... I don't know how synonomis the Oranges and Klan are; but I personally don't see the need to wait to be struck, if person already threatens to "beat your ass"....

Today ther were Riots in Dublin, Ireland. A loyalist parade was supose to march in Dublin and the rioters stoped it! :)

Im happy they stoped it. Loyalists have no right being and spreading there word in the capitol of THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND!
I am glad it was stopped.
I agree the entire thing was just charade to incite free men to violence.
However, remember since the very idea of the Republic is freedom, I support that they should be given permission to parade--if they happen to get scared off....next time come with bigger balls.

I am glad it was stopped.
I agree the entire thing was just charade to incite free men to violence.
However, remember since the very idea of the Republic is freedom, I support that they should be given permission to parade--if they happen to get scared off....next time come with bigger balls.

Personally, I think it should have gone ahead.
Yes, they were loyalists. So? Having and expressing a political view - no matter what view - is no reason to have stone thrown at oneself.
From what I read and heard, it was no pride parade, and had no intention to incite anything. Their objective was to draw attention to loyalist and protestant families in the North who had suffered from IRA violence.
Yes, it is onesided... it's their side, after all. And yes, there would have been more than enough ground and reason for a counter-demonstration. Throwing stones and setting cars on fire, however, only serves to show that the other side does in fact have a point.

So what if they wanted to provoke? Is that any excuse to let yourself be provoked??? Should everybody with the intetion to provoke somebody else be locked up straight away, because it's obviously his fault if some f***ing eejits feel they are forced to become violent....

If it had been to remember thier dead, i dont think there would have been any objections, but to remember thier dead did they realy need union jacks, portraits of king billy and Oliver cromwell. All of which does nothing but infuriates republicans and most irish people alike.

And also there were serveral orangemen wearing thier sashes and all, which i think was promised wouldn't happen, as again many people find offensive. And we should also remember many Orangemen were/are behind the killings of nationalists and republicans and also orchastrated ANTI-CIVILRIGHTS protests in the past. Who in thier right mind believes in Anti-civillrights???

If it had been to remember thier dead, i dont think there would have been any objections, but to remember thier dead did they realy need union jacks, portraits of king billy and Oliver cromwell. All of which does nothing but infuriates republicans and most irish people alike.

And also there were serveral orangemen wearing thier sashes and all, which i think was promised wouldn't happen, as again many people find offensive. And we should also remember many Orangemen were/are behind the killings of nationalists and republicans and also orchastrated ANTI-CIVILRIGHTS protests in the past. Who in thier right mind believes in Anti-civillrights???

It was to remember their dead, and there were no official complaints. Well maybe there were but in any case the parade was officailly allowed to go ahead. The 'rioters' had every right to peacefully protest the march. They did not have the right to attach the gardai or people marching, or Charlie Bird, or anybody else for that matter.

If it had been to remember thier dead, i dont think there would have been any objections, but to remember thier dead did they realy need union jacks, portraits of king billy and Oliver cromwell. All of which does nothing but infuriates republicans and most irish people alike.

And also there were serveral orangemen wearing thier sashes and all, which i think was promised wouldn't happen, as again many people find offensive. And we should also remember many Orangemen were/are behind the killings of nationalists and republicans and also orchastrated ANTI-CIVILRIGHTS protests in the past. Who in thier right mind believes in Anti-civillrights???


Does any of that justify violence in your opinion?
And I have neither seen nor heard anything about portraits of Oliver Cromwell nor king William.

Their demonstration was one-sided, and as any other demonstration, it was inteded to provoke. Otherwise no demonstration would make the least bit of sense.
But to react to a peaceful demonstration with rioting and violence is not only inadequate, it's a sign of immaturity without understanding or respect for democracy. There simply is no ecxcuse for that.

haha, yeh poor Charlie. that was totaly unnessacary. Most rioters wern't even republicans just scags lootin burberry caps. Ive heard that some of the arrested were Lituanians, and i doubt that they are majorly into ithe republican cause for some reason.

Im not trying to defend the violence but they should have realised that there would be trouble.

and if you didn see the portraits or banners, you either wernt there or didn see the pics of them and never seen a loyalist march before. They had to beg them not to use UDA or LVF flags!

haha, yeh poor Charlie. that was totaly unnessacary. Most rioters wern't even republicans just scags lootin burberry caps. Ive heard that some of the arrested were Lituanians, and i doubt that they are majorly into ithe republican cause for some reason.

Im not trying to defend the violence but they should have realised that there would be trouble.

and if you didn see the portraits or banners, you either wernt there or didn see the pics of them and never seen a loyalist march before. They had to beg them not to use UDA or LVF flags!

Actually, I was there. Just before that march was scheduled to go ahead. I opened a thread about it on Saturday afternoon....

haha, yeh poor Charlie. that was totaly unnessacary. Most rioters wern't even republicans just scags lootin burberry caps. Ive heard that some of the arrested were Lituanians, and i doubt that they are majorly into ithe republican cause for some reason.

Im not trying to defend the violence but they should have realised that there would be trouble.

and if you didn see the portraits or banners, you either wernt there or didn see the pics of them and never seen a loyalist march before. They had to beg them not to use UDA or LVF flags!

I'm sure they were expecting trouble, as evidenced by the garda prescence. They just probably weren't expecting to get rioted. Or at least hoping the skangers would be elsewhere when they were.

Its a known fact that William of orange and Cromwell dominate most the banners they fly

and good luck, like the scangers would miss a good oul fashioned riot.

Today ther were Riots in Dublin, Ireland. A loyalist parade was supose to march in Dublin and the rioters stoped it! :)

Im happy they stoped it. Loyalists have no right being and spreading there word in the capitol of THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND!

And why are you happy? Only uniting our people under one banner will bring true peace. Although we want Cameron instead.

And why are you happy? Only uniting our people under one banner will bring true peace. Although we want Cameron instead.

(opinions on violence aside) because some people rightly find it offensive that people would march for loyalty to the United Kingdom that Ireland fought for its own freedom from to form their own republic. It's one thing in the North (not that I'm a fan), but it is completely different to do it in the capital of the Republic.

They had a right to protest, everyone does within limits. What pisses me off are the thugs and scumbags who get teary eyed about "mother Ireland" and beat the hell out of anyone they see as being different to them etc. Im Irish and while I disagree with the politics of loyalists they can still march down dublin for all I care. Hell I live in dublin. To prevent them from doing so is giving into the will of those who seek to impose their own beliefs on others, to curtail the right to legitimate free speech. Assholes, they had no right to start throwing bricks petrol bombs and setting cars on fire. How dare they. All of them should be punished severely. All political groups are entitled to protest within reason. Its part of democracy and anyone who disagrees with this can basically suck my dick cause I really dont give a fuck about that shit! (YUH!)

If it had been to remember thier dead, i dont think there would have been any objections, but to remember thier dead did they realy need union jacks, portraits of king billy and Oliver cromwell. All of which does nothing but infuriates republicans and most irish people alike.

And also there were serveral orangemen wearing thier sashes and all, which i think was promised wouldn't happen, as again many people find offensive. And we should also remember many Orangemen were/are behind the killings of nationalists and republicans and also orchastrated ANTI-CIVILRIGHTS protests in the past. Who in thier right mind believes in Anti-civillrights???


its under the constitution that views can be expressed no matter how absurd or offensive.

And why are you happy? Only uniting our people under one banner will bring true peace. Although we want Cameron instead.
"our people?" The British people are not the same as the Irish people.

(opinions on violence aside) because some people rightly find it offensive that people would march for loyalty to the United Kingdom that Ireland fought for its own freedom from to form their own republic. It's one thing in the North (not that I'm a fan), but it is completely different to do it in the capital of the Republic.
They wheren't marching for loyalty to the United Kingdom. They marched to comemerate those who died at the hands of the IRA and republican terrorist organisations. The organisers wanted to provoke and get into the news sure.

But rioting injuring 14 people and costing the bussiness' and government €10million as it said in one of the freesheets(including "lost trade" plus it probably exagerated but still) this morning isn't exactly on the same scale as wearing some orange sashes and possibly having some offensive portraits or banners and marching down a street

They wheren't marching for loyalty to the United Kingdom. They marched to comemerate those who died at the hands of the IRA and republican terrorist organisations. The organisers wanted to provoke and get into the news sure.

But rioting injuring 14 people and costing the bussiness' and government €10million as it said in one of the freesheets(including "lost trade" plus it probably exagerated but still) this morning isn't exactly on the same scale as wearing some orange sashes and possibly having some offensive portraits or banners and marching down a street

I might have the right to insult people and deliberately provoke people, however I am not sure if I have any credibility if I were to then complain about what I had deliberately provoked.

Two wrongs....

They wheren't marching for loyalty to the United Kingdom. They marched to comemerate those who died at the hands of the IRA and republican terrorist organisations. The organisers wanted to provoke and get into the news sure.

But rioting injuring 14 people and costing the bussiness' and government €10million as it said in one of the freesheets(including "lost trade" plus it probably exagerated but still) this morning isn't exactly on the same scale as wearing some orange sashes and possibly having some offensive portraits or banners and marching down a street
All that said, I still feel that the very base of the march was all for propaganda. They knew what would happen. When have the Orangemen marched and there hasn't been violence of some sort? If they wanted sympathy, they should have marched in England. Hell, the majority of the casualies in the North are suffered by Catholics civilians.

All that said, I still feel that the very base of the march was all for propaganda. They knew what would happen. When have the Orangemen marched and there hasn't been violence of some sort? If they wanted sympathy, they should have marched in England. Hell, the majority of the casualies in the North are suffered by Catholics civilians.

There were Orange marches in Liverpool, the only predominantly Catholic city in England. It is odd isn't it, you would think if they did not want trouble they would stick to a Protestant place.

Fortunantly, there isn't really any sectarianism around there anymore, so they just catch the train and have a nice meal.

All that said, I still feel that the very base of the march was all for propaganda. They knew what would happen. When have the Orangemen marched and there hasn't been violence of some sort? If they wanted sympathy, they should have marched in England. Hell, the majority of the casualies in the North are suffered by Catholics civilians.

Well obviously they were trying to get in the news. I think if they had marched anywhere in Ireland there would have been protests, there always is when orange men go anywhere. Clearly they were going for maximum effect.

Oh and I have it from a friend that there were buckets of things like snooker balls hidden on side streets all along the parade route. Dont know if this was in the news, so I just thought I should drop it in.

I might have the right to insult people and deliberately provoke people, however I am not sure if I have any credibility if I were to then complain about what I had deliberately provoked.

Two wrongs....
the reaction was out of proportion though.

Well obviously they were trying to get in the news. I think if they had marched anywhere in Ireland there would have been protests, there always is when orange men go anywhere. Clearly they were going for maximum effect.

Actually the Orange Order frequently march in parts of Donegal with no fuss.

There is an awful lot of nonsense coming from so called republicans about how the northerners shouldn't have been allowed to march in Dublin. How do said republicans expect a 32 country republic to come about if they cannot bear to tolerate freedom of expression from the Protestant community in the North?

I am a 26 county republican, I don't think the north and south should ever unite, I think the poverty of Northern Ireland would bankrupt the boyant Southern economy and I think the ordeal of coming to terms with a Protestant minority in the North would rip apart the fabric of the whole island's society.

They wheren't marching for loyalty to the United Kingdom. They marched to comemerate those who died at the hands of the IRA and republican terrorist organisations.
And it's wrong to do this how?

After all, the IRA carries out demonstrations in the north commemorating their dead.

When have the Orangemen marched and there hasn't been violence of some sort?

All the time.

There was an Orange march on Sunday in Belfast, for example, and there was no trouble. Very few marches end up with any trouble.

And they march in the Republic all the time with nobody batting an eyelid. I'd love to see Sinn Fein accept that in a united Ireland.

Ugh. It's all so pointless. A loyalist march in Dublin? What on earth do they hope to accomplish with this. It's not like anyone in England even wants the Republic back (under any terms). (A lot of people would like to see shot of the north for that matter).

Ugh. It's all so pointless. A loyalist march in Dublin? What on earth do they hope to accomplish with this. It's not like anyone in England even wants the Republic back (under any terms). (A lot of people would like to see shot of the north for that matter).

Ugh - its not like they were marching in Dublin to try and coax southern Ireland back into the UK!

They were marching to draw attetnion to the fact that the Unionist community have suffered deeply at the hands of Republican violence, something which people in the south all too often forget.

Ugh. It's all so pointless. A loyalist march in Dublin? What on earth do they hope to accomplish with this. It's not like anyone in England even wants the Republic back (under any terms). (A lot of people would like to see shot of the north for that matter).
It wasn't a loyalist march in the sense that it was calling for bringing back the union, it was a march made up of loyalists who wanted to bring attention to the suffering of some at the hands of republicans.

The riots only served to reinforce their point...

Sica']Ugh - its not like they were marching in Dublin to try and coax southern Ireland back into the UK!

They were marching to draw attetnion to the fact that the Unionist community have suffered deeply at the hands of Republican violence, something which people in the south all too often forget.

Well then they probably shouldn't call themselves loyalists, or unionists. That has certain overtones.

In any case, their time would be better spent doing this sort of thing in South Boston. It's not like anything can ever be achieved by this.

It wasn't a loyalist march in the sense that it was calling for bringing back the union, it was a march made up of loyalists who wanted to bring attention to the suffering of some at the hands of republicans.

The riots only served to reinforce their point...

As if the UDA and UVF and the now defunct RUC and the British Army didn't inflict suffering on the Catholic communities.

Not saying Loyalists don't have a right to commemorate their dead, but don't ignore the fact that their side has blood on its hands as well.

It wasn't a loyalist march in the sense that it was calling for bringing back the union, it was a march made up of loyalists who wanted to bring attention to the suffering of some at the hands of republicans.

The riots only served to reinforce their point...

But I never thought dublin was a hotbed of republican violence, well not since the 20s anyway. It just seems so pointless.

I'm not against them doing it per se. I just don't see what anyone hopes to accomplish. Especially since there is that whole EU dealy. It's just so backward looking.

As if the UDA and UVF and the now defunct RUC and the British Army didn't inflict suffering on the Catholic communities.

Which is brought up regularly enough by similar republican marches in the north.

Not saying Loyalists don't have a right to commemorate their dead, but don't ignore the fact that their side has blood on its hands as well.
Who was?

I certainly wasn't.


It seems that in this world you can't bring up the legitimate grievances of the Unionist population without being countered by "ah, but your side did it too, so what are you complaining about?"

Sad, really.

They wheren't marching for loyalty to the United Kingdom. They marched to comemerate those who died at the hands of the IRA and republican terrorist organisations. The organisers wanted to provoke and get into the news sure.

But rioting injuring 14 people and costing the bussiness' and government €10million as it said in one of the freesheets(including "lost trade" plus it probably exagerated but still) this morning isn't exactly on the same scale as wearing some orange sashes and possibly having some offensive portraits or banners and marching down a street


What the Orange Order stands for could be considered extremely offensive. I'm not Irish, but having spent time there (including on July 12th when I was living with a family in Monaghan), I can say that I regularly heard the Orangemen compared to the KKK in America. Now, the KKK could march in memory of dead confederate soldiers, or even dead troops in Iraq, but it wouldn't make it any less offensive because they still stand for the same old shit no matter what the theme of that particular march is.

But I never thought dublin was a hotbed of republican violence, well not since the 20s anyway. It just seems so pointless.

It's not, but I suppose they could have been trying to emphasise the issue in light of growing support for Sinn Fein in the south.

The fact remains that they were engaging in a peaceful expression of their political viewpoints, and that should not be prohibited.

Lots of movements have protested, knowing they were going to be attacked. The US Civil Rights Movement, for example.


You can hardly compare the US Civil Rights movement to a Loyalist march through the REPUBLIC of Ireland

It's not, but I suppose they could have been trying to emphasise the issue in light of growing support for Sinn Fein in the south.

I can't imagine what the attraction of Sinn Fein would be in the Republic. Are they going to withdraw the Republic from the EU? Like it or not, these issues are really a facet of the twentieth century. Everyone is under brussels more or less now.

It's not, but I suppose they could have been trying to emphasise the issue in light of growing support for Sinn Fein in the south.

I can't imagine what the attraction of Sinn Fein would be in the Republic. Are they going to withdraw the Republic from the EU? Like it or not, these issues are really a facet of the twentieth century. Everyone is under brussels more or less now.

It's not, but I suppose they could have been trying to emphasise the issue in light of growing support for Sinn Fein in the south.

I can't imagine what the attraction of Sinn Fein would be in the Republic. Are they going to withdraw the Republic from the EU? Like it or not, these issues are really a facet of the twentieth century. Everyone is under brussels more or less now.

I can't imagine what the attraction of Sinn Fein would be in the Republic. Are they going to withdraw the Republic from the EU? Like it or not, these issues are really a facet of the twentieth century. Everyone is under brussels more or less now.
I don't particularly understand it either, but Sinn Fein increased its standing in the Dáil from 1 TD to 5 in 2002, so with the prospect of another election this year (or maybe next), their aim could have been to try and stop another increase.

As if the UDA and UVF and the now defunct RUC and the British Army didn't inflict suffering on the Catholic communities.

Not saying Loyalists don't have a right to commemorate their dead, but don't ignore the fact that their side has blood on its hands as well.

Nobody in the south ignores the suffering of Catholics. Indeed, most people in the south have a stupidly skewed view of history and completely ignore the fact that IRA/Sinn Fein killed hundreds of innocent civilians.

The question of Northern Ireland is far more complicated than most people in the south are willing to admit. There were deaths on both sides, atrocities committed on both sides, neither side is innocent and both sides are victims.

I can't imagine what the attraction of Sinn Fein would be in the Republic. Are they going to withdraw the Republic from the EU? Like it or not, these issues are really a facet of the twentieth century. Everyone is under brussels more or less now.

Sinn Fein are communists who appeal to the very poor and very marginalised in society. Ireland is an incredibly unequal society with a growing discontented working class disillusioned with the other political parties. Sinn Fein also has a mystique in the form of its nationalist ideology - a simple idea that inspires the uneducated. No other political party in Ireland really has an ideology, certainly not one that is as inspirational.

Sica']Nobody in the south ignores the suffering of Catholics. Indeed, most people in the south have a stupidly skewed view of history and completely ignore the fact that IRA/Sinn Fein killed hundreds of innocent civilians.

I wasn't suggesting people in the south ignore the suffering of Catholics. I was suggesting that the Orangemen shouldn't act all innocent, because, as an organization, they and their community aren't.

I don't know about these riots, but often anarchists (especially in the form of "black blocs") are involved. They don't instigate chaos for the sake of chaos, but to attack the state's forces of social control and the large corporations that perpetrate globalization. I doubt that was the case in this event, but don't assume all rioters are assholes looking for a fight.

I was suggesting that the Orangemen shouldn't act all innocent, because, as an organization, they and their community aren't.
These weren't Orangemen. Officially, anyway. It wasn't an Orange march, it was a march by an organisation called Love Ulster.

I doubt that was the case in this event, but don't assume all rioters are assholes looking for a fight.

In this case, thats all they were.

I wish the CRS could have been hired in for that day. I really wish those idiots had their skulls cracked open. They fucked up my city and I ain't happy bout that.

Sica']Sinn Fein are communists...

Nope.

Whoever it was.. his political career is over.No, not really. ???

You are going to vote him back into office?
If i was Irish.. I would kiss him good-bye.

???

You are going to vote him back into office?
If i was Irish.. I would kiss him good-bye.

Why? He didn't do anything particularly wrong.

???

You are going to vote him back into office?
If i was Irish.. I would kiss him good-bye.
What did he do wrong?

Why? He didn't do anything particularly wrong.then keep him..
after all.. you get the Gov you deserve. (or so thay say)

then keep him..
after all.. you get the Gov you deserve. (or so thay say)

Em... ok? :confused:

Its not about the government's response, its about 300 people giving
4 million people a bad name.

The Taoiseach will probably stay in power due to the good economic situation in recent years. That and the lack of a decent opposition.

These riots are more of a blemish on our society rather then on the government.

I wasn't suggesting people in the south ignore the suffering of Catholics. I was suggesting that the Orangemen shouldn't act all innocent, because, as an organization, they and their community aren't.

I don't know about these riots, but often anarchists (especially in the form of "black blocs") are involved. They don't instigate chaos for the sake of chaos, but to attack the state's forces of social control and the large corporations that perpetrate globalization. I doubt that was the case in this event, but don't assume all rioters are assholes looking for a fight.

As has been pointed out, these weren't Orangemen, and their objective was not to promote union with Britain but simply to draw attention to the people who suffered from IRA violence and attacks in Ulster. Nothing more.

I sincerely doubt that many anarchists were involved in this riot, or that globalisation played any role at all.
And a rioter, by definition, is an asshole looking for a fight.

Oh, the irony.

All month I've been hearing "what a culture clash, Muslims will never be integrated into wastern society, they counter free speech with riots".

Oh, and I doubt that their aim was to "draw attention to the people who suffered from IRA violence and attacks in Ulster. Nothing more. "

According to wikipedia:

"Love Ulster is a Unionist organisation dedicated to commemorating the Unionist victims of The Troubles in Northern Ireland. This was organised in part by Willie Frazer of Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR). This is a group established to voice outrage at the killings by the Republican paramilitary organisations, but it has been criticised for not doing the same for victims of loyalist paramilitary organisations. Indeed, in the past, Frazer had said of loyalist paramilitary prisoners that "They should never have been locked up in the first place," and that he had "a lot of time for Billy Wright."[1] An example of this attitude is the previous displaying of the picture of Robert McConnell, an Ulster Volunteer Force member who was involved, among others, in the murder of 26 people in Dublin in the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan Bombings, and who was himself murdered by the Provisional IRA in 1976. His picture had appeared at FAIR rallies and an organiser of the Love Ulster demonstration previously told a republican newspaper that he would not guarantee that images of McConnell would not be displayed during the demonstration."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Dublin_riots

Oh, the irony.

All month I've been hearing "what a culture clash, Muslims will never be integrated into wastern society, they counter free speech with riots".

Oh, and I doubt that their aim was to "draw attention to the people who suffered from IRA violence and attacks in Ulster. Nothing more. "

According to wikipedia:

"Love Ulster is a Unionist organisation dedicated to commemorating the Unionist victims of The Troubles in Northern Ireland. This was organised in part by Willie Frazer of Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR). This is a group established to voice outrage at the killings by the Republican paramilitary organisations, but it has been criticised for not doing the same for victims of loyalist paramilitary organisations. Indeed, in the past, Frazer had said of loyalist paramilitary prisoners that "They should never have been locked up in the first place," and that he had "a lot of time for Billy Wright."[1] An example of this attitude is the previous displaying of the picture of Robert McConnell, an Ulster Volunteer Force member who was involved, among others, in the murder of 26 people in Dublin in the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan Bombings, and who was himself murdered by the Provisional IRA in 1976. His picture had appeared at FAIR rallies and an organiser of the Love Ulster demonstration previously told a republican newspaper that he would not guarantee that images of McConnell would not be displayed during the demonstration."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Dublin_riots

And in what way does that justify throwing bricks at them?

And a rioter, by definition, is an asshole looking for a fight.

Not all of them.

Not all of them.

Show me one person starting a riot who doesn't look for a fight.... :rolleyes:

I found the whole thing quite embarrassing really. Although I probably shouldn't be surprised. Fecking scumbags. :headbang:

Oh, and I doubt that their aim was to "draw attention to the people who suffered from IRA violence and attacks in Ulster. Nothing more. "

According to wikipedia:

"Love Ulster is a Unionist organisation dedicated to commemorating the Unionist victims of The Troubles in Northern Ireland. This was organised in part by Willie Frazer of Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR). This is a group established to voice outrage at the killings by the Republican paramilitary organisations, but it has been criticised for not doing the same for victims of loyalist paramilitary organisations. Indeed, in the past, Frazer had said of loyalist paramilitary prisoners that "They should never have been locked up in the first place," and that he had "a lot of time for Billy Wright."[1] An example of this attitude is the previous displaying of the picture of Robert McConnell, an Ulster Volunteer Force member who was involved, among others, in the murder of 26 people in Dublin in the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan Bombings, and who was himself murdered by the Provisional IRA in 1976. His picture had appeared at FAIR rallies and an organiser of the Love Ulster demonstration previously told a republican newspaper that he would not guarantee that images of McConnell would not be displayed during the demonstration."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Dublin_riots

And how does that counter the view that the parade on Sunday was primarily intended to draw attention to victims of IRA violance?

Not all of them.

Rioting for the sake of rioting.


And how does that counter the view that the parade on Sunday was primarily intended to draw attention to victims of IRA violance?

I don't think it does.

'Love Ulster' claimed to be representing all sides of the conflict, but in reality very few Northern Nationalists or Catholics would have walked under banners of suspected bombers and to the tune of anti-Catholic songs, if it was in aid of peace and reconciliation.

Stupidity begets stupidity.

I actually just came back down from a weekend in Belfast the weekend before (I stayed around QUB) and the taxi drivers all warned me to "Stay away from with your Free State accent...."

I mean come on! That made me feel like times [i]haven't changed. And then then I come home to more of the same bullshit!? I'm emigrating.

I don't think it does.

'Love Ulster' claimed to be representing all sides of the conflict,
Nah they don't, they're solely interested in the loyalist community, and they don't hide that fact.


I actually just came back down from a weekend in Belfast the weekend before (I stayed around QUB) and the taxi drivers all warned me to "Stay away from [insert pub here] with your Free State accent...."
Unless he was telling you to keep away from pubs on the Shankill road then I wouldn't have taken him seriously...sure QUB is heavily Catholic anyway.

Driver sounds like he was just being melodramatic, or was a bigot himself. It's safe for anybody, with any accent, to go to pretty much any pub or club in the city centre.

Sica']Nobody in the south ignores the suffering of Catholics. Indeed, most people in the south have a stupidly skewed view of history and completely ignore the fact that IRA/Sinn Fein killed hundreds of innocent civilians.

The question of Northern Ireland is far more complicated than most people in the south are willing to admit. There were deaths on both sides, atrocities committed on both sides, neither side is innocent and both sides are victims.
Wow you know most people's view!? Did you go around asking them or did you just send them a survey? :rolleyes:

If that's most people's view in the south, how come Sinn Fein isn't in government?

Noone I know thinks the IRA didn't kill people or that they're the good guys.