NationStates Jolt Archive

Violence Erupts at Neo-Nazi Rally in Florida
Saturday, February 25, 2006

ORLANDO, Fla. — Violence broke out and police made a handful of arrests at a neo-Nazi rally Saturday before a planned march through a predominantly black neighborhood.

Police hauled away at least five people in handcuffs after a fistfight broke out between supporters of the National Socialist Movement and counter-demonstrators who were voicing their displeasure with the group's anti-minority message.

It was not immediately clear to which groups those arrested belonged.

More than 300 law enforcement officers were on the scene. Some officers patrolled with K-9 units and on horses, while police helicopters circled above the march route.

In October, the same neo-Nazi group gathered in Toledo, Ohio, for a march they said was intended to protest gangs and rising crime. The situation turned into a riot in which businesses were burned and looted and bricks were thrown at police.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186055,00.html

:rolleyes: I don't know who's worse. The Nazis or the counter-demonstrators.

I'm sorry, but neo-Nazis are just sooo nineties. :rolleyes:

I don't know who's worse. The Nazis or the counter-demonstrators.
Hint: it's the Nazis.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186055,00.html

:rolleyes: I don't know who's worse. The Nazis or the counter-demonstrators.

Neither is worse than the other but both are not good.

Hint: it's the Nazis.
Not necessarily, in Russia the Liberal Democrat Party is worse.

Hint: it's the Nazis.
Obviously, but still

"Illinois Nazi's I hate Illinois Nazi's"

Blues's Brothers

Hay i may hate what they say But i will defend there right to the death to say it.

As long as the don't get violent its there right to there opinion.

Not necessarily, in Russia the Liberal Democrat Party is worse.
I think in Russia they're basically the same. "Liberal Democrat Party" is, of course, a misnomer.
News points out to me that the two (or three, cause there's two different Russian Nazisms) and the Communist Party, plus the cretinous Romanoff-nostalgy Imperialists, are basically together in making life crap for democracy. By democracy, I don't mean Putin. In fact, what I hear is the Putin is countering the Nazi appeal by creating a violent youth squad inspied by theirs.

I'm sorry, but neo-Nazis are just sooo nineties. :rolleyes:

in the states, they're actually on the upswing. especially since the mainstream psuedo-fascists have taken up a few of their projects and positions.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186055,00.html

:rolleyes: I don't know who's worse. The Nazis or the counter-demonstrators.

There's no real comparison. Which was worse, the Nazi forces occupying France or the partisans? There's precious little point arguing with these nasty idiots, the only language they understand is strength, and if the force with the monopoly of the means of coercion (the state) is unwilling to confront hate-mongers, I'd say it's people's duty to make sure someone does. Just because they're a small bunch now doesn't mean that one day if left unchecked they won't get some real power and make real people pay for that.

Free speech =/= right to shout fire in crowded cinema

Hay i may hate what they say But i will defend there right to the death to say it.
Nice phrase on paper, but think for one second, would you actually fight to the death to let some skinhead scumbags incite violence and promote hatred? If so I think your priorities are somewhat skewed.

I don't agree with the Neo-Nazis but the way they do their rallying is clever. Their whole spew is that people who are not white, especially black people, are animals. So, they march through ethnic neighborhoods and the black people do exactly what they want them to do and attack the Nazi's like animals. The Nazis get arrested again, but they also have proof of black people acting like animals.

I don't agree with them, but it's a clever strategy.

I don't agree with the Neo-Nazis but the way they do their rallying is clever. Their whole spew is that people who are not white, especially black people, are animals. So, they march through ethnic neighborhoods and the black people do exactly what they want them to do and attack the Nazi's like animals. The Nazis get arrested again, but they also have proof of black people acting like animals.

I don't agree with them, but it's a clever strategy.
Exactly what I was trying to get at with the OP. The counter-demonstrators play right ino the Nazis hands.

Fox?? Thats not very reliable. unless there is something like this on an unbiased site like BBC, I will not believe this stuff.

Fox?? Thats not very reliable. unless there is something like this on an unbiased site like BBC, I will not believe this stuff.
Do you find local news less biased?
http://www.local6.com/news/7441725/detail.html

The counter-demonstrators play right ino the Nazis hands.

only if "play right into the nazis hands" = occassionally send a couple of them to the hospital and chase them back under their rocks where they belong.

and what are they to make of all them white kids that unite with black kids to tell the nazis to fuck off?

the only way to play into the nazis' hands is to let them get away with meeting in public without being mocked, shouted down, and attacked. they need to look strong to gain followers. making it so that they can't show up in public at all without police protection does more to undermine them than pretty much anything else we can do. it's hard to respect a nazi cowering in terror behind a line of black cops, even if you were irrational enough to respect one in the first place.

"Illinois Nazi's I hate Illinois Nazi's"

Blues's Brothers

Hay i may hate what they say But i will defend there right to the death to say it.

As long as the don't get violent its there right to there opinion.
So what's wrong with going to them and telling them to head back to the forties, as long as you're nonviolent about it?

only if "play right into the nazis hands" = occassionally send a couple of them to the hospital and chase them back under their rocks where they belong.

and what are they to make of all them white kids that unite with black kids to tell the nazis to fuck off?

the only way to play into the nazis' hands is to let them get away with meeting in public without being mocked, shouted down, and attacked. they need to look strong to gain followers. making it so that they can't show up in public at all without police protection does more to undermine them than pretty much anything else we can do. it's hard to respect a nazi cowering in terror behind a line of black cops, even if you were irrational enough to respect one in the first place.


Because... You know... You're so much better than them when you attack them and abridge their free speech. Those damn Nazi's and their anti-freedom policies!

Oh... Wait...

:rolleyes:

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Because... You know... You're so much better than them when you attack them and abridge their free speech. Those damn Nazi's and their anti-freedom policies!

Oh... Wait...

:rolleyes:

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Are the actions and rhetoric of neo-nazis justifiable in any manor?

Why protect opinions that are obviously demonstrably wrong and evil?

Because... You know... You're so much better than them when you attack them and abridge their free speech. Those damn Nazi's and their anti-freedom policies!

Oh... Wait...

:rolleyes:

Two wrongs don't make a right.First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.


by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

No Platform. They can print their books, run their radios, make their movies & gather in the streets. But they can never, ever be tolerated.

People who wish to kill should not just be left alone.

And for fuck's sake, stop equating Skinheads with neo-Nazi's. There are far, far more neo-Nazi yuppi cunts. If you must do baseless generalisations, aim for them.

Because... You know... You're so much better than them when you attack them and abridge their free speech. Those damn Nazi's and their anti-freedom policies!

Oh... Wait...

:rolleyes:

Two wrongs don't make a right.

it is not wrong to prevent the rise to power of people who openly proclaim that they seek to have me killed. especially since they are already killing people while they are this weak and disorganized. they can say anything they please, and the state should not outlaw their speech. shit, them protecting the nazis is actually a good thing from an objective perspective. but anybody who will "defend to the death" the ability of nazis to freely organize missed out on one of the key historical lessons of the last century.

Are the actions and rhetoric of neo-nazis justifiable in any manor?

Why protect opinions that are obviously demonstrably wrong and evil?
By acting to suppress them, you are lowering yourself to their level.

By acting to suppress them, you are lowering yourself to their level.

So by imprisoning kidnappers, we are sinking to their level?

So by imprisoning kidnappers, we are sinking to their level?Nope, that's just justice. However, if you kick someone who's trying to take your head off with a sawn-off, you're a monster.

So by imprisoning kidnappers, we are sinking to their level?
No, the difference being that the Nazis are not actually harming anyone.

There is a difference between expressing your opinion and beating someone. Both the Neo-Nazis and the protesters have every right in the world to say what it is they feel and believe, but neither group has the right to use violence to get their points across. I'm all for telling the Neo-Nazis you think their views are deplorable, i think they are too, but i will never support someoene who thinks it's okay to physically harm someone because they disagree with them. Nazi or no. Arresting someone is different too, if people break the law they should be punished, that is not the same as hurting someone because you don't like what they say. I don't think anyone here is saying that we shouldn't disagree with Nazis and that we shouldn't express that disagreement, just that we shouldn't beat them.

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

That's a good example of why Nazi's are horribly wrong and indecent human beings. That doesn't, however, justify allowing it to become this:

First they came for the Nazis,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Nazi.
Then they came for the Agnostics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Agnostics.
Then they came for the Atheists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Humanist.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.




No Platform. They can print their books, run their radios, make their movies & gather in the streets. But they can never, ever be tolerated.

People who wish to kill should not just be left alone.

Indeed. I encourage every human being with an ounce of care in them to protest these monsters peracfully. Every time one of the fuckers murders someone, I want him put in jail. If there was a conspiracy involved, I want the entire conspiring body put in jail.

I will never, however, condone censorship or violence, no matter how horrific their message, because it is the first step towards Nazism of our own.

And for fuck's sake, stop equating Skinheads with neo-Nazi's. There are far, far more neo-Nazi yuppi cunts. If you must do baseless generalisations, aim for them.

People to this day fail to realize what Skinheads really are, and assume just because someone is a Skin, their a racist Skin. Perhaps it's because other skinheads have done little to rectify this image?

Are the actions and rhetoric of neo-nazis justifiable in any manor?

Why protect opinions that are obviously demonstrably wrong and evil?
So you put down their opinion by calling yours fact? The majority is never a basis for moral judgement. For example, slavery.

I don't agree with them in any way, but I don't agree with you putting them down on the basis that your opinion is "better" than theirs.

Nope. Violence against Neonazis of any kind is perfectly acceptable to me. Call it healthy exercise.

Nope. Violence against Neonazis of any kind is perfectly acceptable to me. Call it healthy exercise.

So you condemn them for their ideology of hate and violence and yet want to visit hate and violence upon them? Well... Everyone's a hypocrite in their own way, I suppose.

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from dissention. I strongly disagree with everything the Nazis stand for, however if we make an exception by saying "Hey they promote something I dont like lets ban their free speech" then we will be on a slope to do that to EVERYONE we disagree with. We may not agree, but we must tollerate their rights. Instead of removing their rights people should make their own ralleys to block the Nazis, or march with them and act gay, hold some gay pride/jewish signs. That way if the nazis attack their protests can be LEGALY stopped next time.

So you condemn them for their ideology of hate and violence and yet want to visit hate and violence upon them? Well... Everyone's a hypocrite in their own way, I suppose.
Everytime you kick a Nazi in the teeth, you're protecting someone. And besides, where I grew up, people bashed Nazis in self-defence. They were the ones walking around and bashing up immigrants, or people who looked like they couldn't defend themselves. And because the police was never there, people took to handing out justice themselves.
So then we got contacts with various people who called themselves AntiFa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa), and we rolled with it. I regret nothing.

And you're right, that is a bit hypocritical of me, but ultimately, you'd probably have to have been there.

can we just say it was stupid

Everytime you kick a Nazi in the teeth, you're protecting someone. And besides, where I grew up, people bashed Nazis in self-defence. They were the ones walking around and bashing up immigrants, or people who looked like they couldn't defend themselves. And because the police was never there, people took to handing out justice themselves.
So then we got contacts with various people who called themselves AntiFa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa), and we rolled with it. I regret nothing.

And you're right, that is a bit hypocritical of me, but ultimately, you'd probably have to have been there.
That's a different circumstance completely than Nazis just going on a march.

That's a different circumstance completely than Nazis just going on a march.
I don't actually see what the problem is. You see, various Neonazis go on marches all the time in Germany. As long as they don't run around proclaiming the Holocaust is fiction, that is perfectly legal.
But I'm pretty sure that for decades there has not been a single protest of theirs where there wasn't a big counter-protest on at the same time. It's normal in Germany, and by now, the police is pretty good at keeping the two at shouting distance. And usually, these counter-protests are organised simply by the citizens who live there themselves. They're housewives, fathers and their kids who all together protest against hate and violence. And a few more radical leftists who also wouldn't mind getting physical, but they are in the minority most of the time.

So I'm actually surprised that this would even make the news. It seems such an everyday occurance.

I don't actually see what the problem is. You see, various Neonazis go on marches all the time in Germany. As long as they don't run around proclaiming the Holocaust is fiction, that is perfectly legal.
But I'm pretty sure that for decades there has not been a single protest of theirs where there wasn't a big counter-protest on at the same time. It's normal in Germany, and by now, the police is pretty good at keeping the two at shouting distance. And usually, these counter-protests are organised simply by the citizens who live there themselves. They're housewives, fathers and their kids who all together protest against hate and violence. And a few more radical leftists who also wouldn't mind getting physical, but they are in the minority most of the time.

So I'm actually surprised that this would even make the news. It seems such an everyday occurance.
Everyday news in one place is a major event in another.

It happened in Florida, and we don't normally get Nazi related violence in the states.

Everytime you kick a Nazi in the teeth, you're protecting someone. And besides, where I grew up, people bashed Nazis in self-defence. They were the ones walking around and bashing up immigrants, or people who looked like they couldn't defend themselves. And because the police was never there, people took to handing out justice themselves.
So then we got contacts with various people who called themselves AntiFa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa), and we rolled with it. I regret nothing.

And you're right, that is a bit hypocritical of me, but ultimately, you'd probably have to have been there.I could tell a similar story. A couple actually. It all gets down to a very simple question of whether you enjoy being in harms way, or will do what is needed to keep safe.

Nazis are a plage, and the only cure is kicking them out of your towns. Expect resistance though, they're often armed & out to kill or maim.

No, the difference being that the Nazis are not actually harming anyone.

yes, they are.

nazis and their allies are the most significant domestic terrorist threat in the states. they fairly regularly go off and kill somebody. even more regularly they attack people. shit, one of their big 'legitimate' organizers recently went to prison for soliciting the assassination of a federal judge. a couple others have gone down for various other crimes in the past year or two.

and if we let them come out from under their rocks and not cower in fear in the daylight, they will grow and become more dangerous.

yes, they are.

nazis and their allies are the most significant domestic terrorist threat in the states. they fairly regularly go off and kill somebody. even more regularly they attack people. shit, one of their big 'legitimate' organizers recently went to prison for soliciting the assassination of a federal judge. a couple others have gone down for various other crimes in the past year or two.

and if we let them come out from under their rocks and not cower in fear in the daylight, they will grow and become more dangerous.
They weren;t doing anything during the march.

I just so clicked on the FoxNews link, and the word "National Socialist Movement" was hyperlinked. So I thought "WTF?! Is that a definition, just in case Fox-followers don't know what that is?"
Well, it wasn't, it was a search with that term. And what do I get as results?

Three mentions of socialist groups, in Nepal, in Venezuela, and in Bolivia. Somehow I am not even surprised anymore. :rolleyes:

They weren;t doing anything during the march.
Somehow I doubt you've ever been present at a nazi march. You're talking about people marching around with wooden shields & clubs, screaming at the top of their lungs about how they want to murder you.

Get some perspective...

Somehow I doubt you've ever been present at a nazi march. You're talking about people marching around with wooden shields & clubs, screaming at the top of their lungs about how they want to murder you.

Get some perspective...
They still didn't hurt anyone.

I just so clicked on the FoxNews link, and the word "National Socialist Movement" was hyperlinked. So I thought "WTF?! Is that a definition, just in case Fox-followers don't know what that is?"
Well, it wasn't, it was a search with that term. And what do I get as results?

Three mentions of socialist groups, in Nepal, in Venezuela, and in Bolivia. Somehow I am not even surprised anymore. :rolleyes:
OH NOES!!! TEH COMMUNAZIS!!! RUN 4 TEH HILLZ!!!11!

They still didn't hurt anyone.Not for lack of trying. If you honestly believe they didn't try their utmost to hurt everyone in the vicinity, I should very much like some of the shit you're on.

Not for lack of trying. If you honestly believe they didn't try their utmost to hurt everyone in the vicinity, I should very much like some of the shit you're on.

You'd think that they'd be closely enough monitered by the police that if they actually hurt anyone they'd be sent to jail asap.

On the other hand, maybe some of our cops get along just fine with the nazis...

You'd think that they'd be closely enough monitered by the police that if they actually hurt anyone they'd be sent to jail asap.

On the other hand, maybe some of our cops get along just fine with the nazis...I don't know how things are in America, but I have a pretty good idea how things work in most of Europe.

It's perfectly normal for cops to be nazis. It's perfectly normal for them to distribute nazi propaganda at police stations. It's perfectly normal for coppers to hire nazis to start shit.

I don't get the idea of free speech and liberty when it is hijacked by racist folks who scapegoat all their problems on innocent minorities, which is baseless. It's like pedophiles complaining against police getting in the way of their targets. I don't get the folks that say "Although these people are wrong, we should let them express themselves peacefully", obviously these people have never experienced what it is to be a victim and are ignorant. If you accept neo-nazis to gather and protest in your streets then I don't understand why you don't allow Al-qaeda to do the same thing, cause I can't distinguish either groups.

I don't get the idea of free speech and liberty when it is hijacked by racist folks who scapegoat all their problems on innocent minorities, which is baseless. It's like pedophiles complaining against police getting in the way of their targets. I don't get the folks that say "Although these people a wrong, we should let them express themselves peacefully", obviously these people have never experienced what it is to be a victim and are ignorant. If you accept neo-nazis to gather and protest in your streets then I don't understand why you don't allow Al-qaeda to do the same thing, cause I can't distinguish either groups.

If they don't have the right to say what they think, why should you?

If they don't have the right to say what they think, why should you?

I'm not saying we should shut people up, I'm saying we already know what neo-nazis stand for and we all know it doesn't benefit us all. We should make it a taboo for what they stand for, because right now, they seem to be proud of themselves and that's disgusting.

I'm not saying we should shut people up, I'm saying we already know what neo-nazis stand for and we all know it doesn't benefit us all. We should make it a taboo for what they stand for, because right now, they seem to be proud of themselves and that's disgusting.


"I'm not saying we should shut people up, I'm saying we already know what Liberals stand for and we all know it doesn't benefit us all. We should make it a taboo for what they stand for, because right now, they seem to be proud of themselves and that's disgusting."

Forgive the alteration of your statement, but maybe it'll make my point better.

Forgive the alteration of your statement, but maybe it'll make my point better.
Liberalism is one thing. It doesn't actually conflict with any of the fundamental values of a democratic system. Nazism does.

And he's got a point. What if Al-Qaeda supporters were doing that march, celebrating 9/11 and so on?

Liberalism is one thing. It doesn't actually conflict with any of the fundamental values of a democratic system. Nazism does.

And he's got a point. What if Al-Qaeda supporters were doing that march, celebrating 9/11 and so on?

Well, if they were members of Al-Qaeda and had commited criminal acts, I would hope they were in jail for them.

If they were just supporters, I would consider them disgusting, organize a counter-protest, and thank my founding fathers that we both had a right to protest.

If they were just supporters, I would consider them disgusting, organize a counter-protest, and thank my founding fathers that we both had a right to protest.
Yeah right. Except that the police would lock them all up, founding fathers or not.

Yeah right. Except that the police would lock them all up, founding fathers or not.

Meh. Like I said. Everyone's a hypocrite.

Well, if they were members of Al-Qaeda and had commited criminal acts, I would hope they were in jail for them.

how much of a criminal act do you need?

I think in Russia they're basically the same. "Liberal Democrat Party" is, of course, a misnomer.
News points out to me that the two (or three, cause there's two different Russian Nazisms) and the Communist Party, plus the cretinous Romanoff-nostalgy Imperialists, are basically together in making life crap for democracy. By democracy, I don't mean Putin. In fact, what I hear is the Putin is countering the Nazi appeal by creating a violent youth squad inspied by theirs.
i like the nazbols/ national bolsheviks: a wacky blending of nazis and communists with a keen nack for street theater and a rather fierce willingness to annoy putin when few else will.

i like the nazbols/ national bolsheviks: a wacky blending of nazis and communists with a keen nack for street theater and a rather fierce willingness to annoy putin when few else will.

and a webpage devoted to their "combat girlfriends". can't forget about that.

I don't know how things are in America, but I have a pretty good idea how things work in most of Europe.

It's perfectly normal for cops to be nazis. It's perfectly normal for them to distribute nazi propaganda at police stations. It's perfectly normal for coppers to hire nazis to start shit.
yeah same here at least in predominately white police forces especially suburban and rural ones. big cities probably have too racially diverse forces for that to play to well. the thin blue line mentality is pretty strong. in almost all white forces that will tend to support racism, in very diverse ones it will either discourage it, or create a mental double standard where fellow officers are all "us", but other races in the general population remain "them".

and a webpage devoted to their "combat girlfriends". can't forget about that.definitely not...

I've seen a few people express these sentiments, but it can't hurt to reinforce them.

What you have to understand about neo-Nazis is that they bring in kids who feel alienated by giving them someone else to blame for their problems (which can often be rightfully blamed on the fact that the government does not have the interests of the poor at hear). When Nazis march, they intend to look strong and proud, something that poor, marginalized white kids see and identify with. Kids join because they want to be a part of something that will make them feel strong.

By fighting the Nazis (vocally and through physical self defense), it makes them look weak, which makes kids less likely to join, and it exposes the injustice and wrong inherent in their views. Allowing them to go unconfronted ensures that they will grow in numbers. When a counter-protest appears stronger than the Nazis, maybe those kids will identify with the anti-racists (and if we're really lucky, they'll become leftists or anarchists ;) )

Nazis have to be confronted, and often yelling at them and waving picket signs just isn't enough.

I've seen a few people express these sentiments, but it can't hurt to reinforce them.

What you have to understand about neo-Nazis is that they bring in kids who feel alienated by giving them someone else to blame for their problems (which can often be rightfully blamed on the fact that the government does not have the interests of the poor at hear). When Nazis march, they intend to look strong and proud, something that poor, marginalized white kids see and identify with. Kids join because they want to be a part of something that will make them feel strong.

By fighting the Nazis (vocally and through physical self defense), it makes them look weak, which makes kids less likely to join, and it exposes the injustice and wrong inherent in their views. Allowing them to go unconfronted ensures that they will grow in numbers. When a counter-protest appears stronger than the Nazis, maybe those kids will identify with the anti-racists (and if we're really lucky, they'll become leftists or anarchists ;) )

Nazis have to be confronted, and often yelling at them and waving picket signs just isn't enough.

precisely. this isn't an issue that can be dealt with by rational discussion - they're nazis, reliance on rationality is one of the 'weaknesses' of liberalism that they oppose. the only way to fight the fascist mindset is to make the fascists look weak and pathetic. keep them scared, keep them in hiding, or else they can and will come to power.

I've seen a few people express these sentiments, but it can't hurt to reinforce them.

What you have to understand about neo-Nazis is that they bring in kids who feel alienated by giving them someone else to blame for their problems (which can often be rightfully blamed on the fact that the government does not have the interests of the poor at hear). When Nazis march, they intend to look strong and proud, something that poor, marginalized white kids see and identify with. Kids join because they want to be a part of something that will make them feel strong.

By fighting the Nazis (vocally and through physical self defense), it makes them look weak, which makes kids less likely to join, and it exposes the injustice and wrong inherent in their views. Allowing them to go unconfronted ensures that they will grow in numbers. When a counter-protest appears stronger than the Nazis, maybe those kids will identify with the anti-racists (and if we're really lucky, they'll become leftists or anarchists ;) )

Nazis have to be confronted, and often yelling at them and waving picket signs just isn't enough.
i use to agree with your position and i don't condemn it now. freedom of speech means from government intervention, not necesssarily from the consequences that it brings from other private citizens. on the other hand i think the nazis really see their rallies as more of a bonding ritual amoungst themselves and a chance to get wider media attention than actually a way to recruit people from the audience. i'm not sure even a victory for the antiracists in a street brawl really thwarts those goals.

also alot of the groups that organize to fight them have their own agenda. a victory for them against the nazis is also a chance for them to spread their marginalized political lines. you may find neomaoists or old school trotskyists or ultrapatriotic "antiracist" skinheads preferable to the nazis but do you really want to help them appear tough and popular by letting them march at the front of your angry mob when it beats down a dozen crazy rednecks in bedsheets and holloween costume ss uniforms?

precisely. this isn't an issue that can be dealt with by rational discussion - they're nazis, reliance on rationality is one of the 'weaknesses' of liberalism that they oppose. the only way to fight the fascist mindset is to make the fascists look weak and pathetic. keep them scared, keep them in hiding, or else they can and will come to power.but is trying to out thug the thugs really effective. you are playing into their mythology, their mindset. they dream of crushing the reds on the street or dying in valiant combat against the mongrel hordes, are your dreams really just the reverse or something else entirely.

how much of a criminal act do you need?

Conspiring to carry out, being an accomplice in, or carrying out a terrorist attack, or funding an organization in knowledge that they were intending to carry out terrorrist acts.

That would be 99% of the members of Al Quaeda, unsuprisingly, but the point was that from the perspective of the law, if someone is not in jail having been found guilty, they are presumed innocent. :rolleyes:

Conspiring to carry out, being an accomplice in, or carrying out a terrorist attack, or funding an organization in knowledge that they were intending to carry out terrorrist acts.

That would be 99% of the members of Al Quaeda, unsuprisingly, but the point was that from the perspective of the law, if someone is not in jail having been found guilty, they are presumed innocent. :rolleyes:It would also be 100% of the members of neo-Nazi organisations. And arguably, AQ doesn't cause nearly as much harm as Nazis do.

Are the actions and rhetoric of neo-nazis justifiable in any manor?

Why protect opinions that are obviously demonstrably wrong and evil?

Because the idea of Freedom of Speech is specifically designed to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech requires no protection.

Because the idea of Freedom of Speech is specifically designed to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech requires no protection.The concept of rights is to ensure all people can live their lives in safety & prosperity.

I don't want to take away the neo-Nazis' right to express themselves, and I don't want governments to interfere. But I do consider it both self defence & a civil duty to beat the boneheads until they go away.

Not running them out of your town, is failing to protect your peers, and likely yourself, from people who are hell-bend on oppression, violence & death.

Hint: it's the Nazis.exactly

Really, those Neo-Nazis are just a bunch of wacko "add gas to fire" trouble making minorities (ooh, did I just say that?) who labelled themselves socialists. Freedom of speech little nazis? It's not a licence kiddo.

exactly

Really, those Neo-Nazis are just a bunch of wacko "add gas to fire" trouble making minorities (ooh, did I just say that?) who labelled themselves socialists. Freedom of speech little nazis? It's not a licence kiddo.


the neo-nazis are as u wouldsay a form of people who are abusing the "free speech conduct" many of the places to-day have brought this on themselfs because they have gotten to confotable with peace so people like the neo-nazi groups take advantage of this situation also if a neo-nazi riot breaks out the swat teams can do 1 of 2 things and both have bad concequences

1) they can fight the neo-nazi riot but then they have a problem with the nazi's saying the were just expresing our selfs in "speech" so u cant do anything and then the nazi's sue the asses off the swat teams

2)they can not fight the nazi's and let them thro but then they have a problem with the nomal people living in that particular area, they normal pl can say "u didnt stop them i want conpensation for this!!"

There seems to be great faith in free speech to undermine Nazis. I am not sure I share this faith.

It seems to based on the Liberal conceit that other people would agree with us, if only they were as intellegent/well informed. I am not sure I can agree with this. This incarnation of Nazis do not strike me as a great threat, as they are overtly backward looking and going out of their way to stick out and make it clear they are a minirity grouping.

If a credible Nazi force arrive, they will do so with a reasonable, sympathetic persona and friendly smile. Perhaps.

Im from Denmark (its us with the Muhammed drawings) ani in Denmark there is a parti called Danish folk parti. It is not a nazi parti but a racist parti and i has been growing bigger and bigger since the Muhammed incident. (now i am getting to the point) I think that the nazis are the worst. They are asking for a fight when they go round saying stuff like that. And that is what they want.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186055,00.html

:rolleyes: I don't know who's worse. The Nazis or the counter-demonstrators.
They should lock up all of these braindead Nazis for a *long* time :mad:

Im from Denmark...
Welcome. :)

They should lock up all of these braindead Nazis for a *long* time :mad:


Whos the more fascist, the Nazi who leads, or the Nazi who follows?

I'm not a believer in free speech, let that be clear right away. A tolerant society cannot tolerate people who are not tolerant. Or to put it in a plainer way, a hospitalized nazi is a good nazi - It's not out spreading hate or murdering minorities.

This Is America. As Long As Everything Is Planned, And Permitted. We The People Have The Right To Assembly, And Speech.. If The Zogs Take Over, Than Whats So Good About Free Speech?????

As far as I'm concerned, theres right and wrong. People in America have the right to free speech but I think everyone can agree rights can and will be abused. Most people will agree that abuse is also wrong. Therefore when the neo-nazis abuse rights it is wrong ,and abusing them for abusing their, and our, rights is no longer abuse. It's punishment. Just like anything else that is wrong is punished in one way or another, by law of the goverment, or civilians or otherwise. So since the vast majority of the goverment and people think this is wrong, it is whether it's illegal or not. As long as right and wrong will be determined on what the majority of people think thats how it will be. Also they have the intent on overthrowing the goverment that is giving them the rights to do it and kill minorities. Thats like the US letting the nazis rip its arm off and be beat to death with it. It's obvious we would be protecting more people if we killed every nazi who dared to oppress the very people who are allowing him to live on our land. We've seen what happens when nazis come to power, and they won't stop with just one country.

*We won the war our beliefs stay theirs does not.*

"Free speech as long as I don't think you're bad" I see. How principled.

I'm all for organizing a massive counter demonstration to those of the Nazis. I hate the bastards, they stand against all I believe in. I'm even for throwing eggs and water balloons (even piss filled ones) at them. It's prett hard to be taken seriously with a big egg splattered on your shoulder or wherever.

However, I'm not for engaging in street brawls with them unless they throw the first punch. And no, I do not count WWII as the first punch, or last week, or whatever. They are not a real political threat. In terms of killing people and being downright mean and nasty, yes, they are. But the self-proclaimed Nazis are in no position to enact their views into the laws of the country.

Those ones are in congress and in the white house.

I agree with Oxfordland. If there is ever actually a serious Fascist/Nazi political movement in the US that's capable of taking power, they will do it by appearing friendly, sensible, tough on crime and terrorism, and will make sure to smile. They will also not call themselves Nazis or Fascists. Nor will they march in the streets wearing SS uniforms. That doesn't get votes. Looking reasonable and appearing concerned about the well-being of citizens and protecting them from crime and terrorism does.

You say they're not a real political threat now, right I agree completely. They have practically no one on their side. Years later though if we continue to let them get publicity and create violence amongst citizens they will grow. If we wait till they grow to do anything about it, it'll be too late. I do agree with how they will (if they do) take over. Same way Hitler did or anyone would, not by force but by munipulation. If they show a kind face I'm not sure most of us will recognise we're being taken over from the inside. Well I guess what happens happens, but I hope to God theres not another war over it. I think we all know with todays political views and so many sides of them, the next war will be complete hell. :confused: :sniper:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186055,00.html

:rolleyes: I don't know who's worse. The Nazis or the counter-demonstrators.
The counter-demonstrators. The neo-Nazis win either way as long as counter-demonstrators show up: either the Nazis get to continue their demonstrating with a larger audience, or violence breaks out and the Nazis get even MORE press. The counter-demonstrators are giving the neo-Nazis exactly what they want most.

I don't agree with the Neo-Nazis but the way they do their rallying is clever. Their whole spew is that people who are not white, especially black people, are animals. So, they march through ethnic neighborhoods and the black people do exactly what they want them to do and attack the Nazi's like animals. The Nazis get arrested again, but they also have proof of black people acting like animals.
Same thing happened here. Some unionists marched through Dublin looking for a reaction to 'prove' that Irish republicans are violent, murderers, etc. and that is exactly what the thugs handed to them. As I said, the Orange wing of NI politics has been given a great propaganda victory.

Nice phrase on paper, but think for one second, would you actually fight to the death to let some skinhead scumbags incite violence and promote hatred? If so I think your priorities are somewhat skewed.

Ah yes, but would you rather that the government say that they cannot spread their evil message, but risk giving them the power to suppress any message? or would you rather allow them to spread their message, and maintain your right to peacefully disagree.

I am fully supportive of what the counter-protestors did. I believe they all deserve medals. Nazism is evil.

Besides, all humans are animals. We're just intelligent ones.

Ah yes, but would you rather that the government say that they cannot spread their evil message, but risk giving them the power to suppress any message? or would you rather allow them to spread their message, and maintain your right to peacefully disagree.

as long as we are going to have a state, i would rather have the state protect nazis at their rallies (and even occassionally arrest people like myself - if we aren't able to unarrest them at least). i fear the state more than i fear nazis. but that does not detract in any way from the justice of violent resistance to nazis wherever they feel strong enough to crawl out from under the rotting logs and rocks they hide under normally.

not confronting them makes them look and feel strong. it makes them appear powerful (and therefore 'right') to those who are borderline enough to be won over to their side anyway. every time you make it clear that nazis are grossly outnumbered and would be run out of town if not for the protection of the police, you make them look weak and foolish. every nazi with a black eye is equal to at least a couple more people not joining them who might have otherwise.

no pasarán

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186055,00.html

:rolleyes: I don't know who's worse. The Nazis or the counter-demonstrators.
It's one of the costs of freedom of expression. I despise Nazis and others of their ilk, but whomever started the fight should be incarcerated.

1. I am fully supportive of what the counter-protestors did. I believe they all deserve medals. Nazism is evil.

2. Besides, all humans are animals. We're just intelligent ones.
1. So you're against freedom of expression??? :eek:

2. Sometimes I wonder! :(

The counter-demonstrators. The neo-Nazis win either way as long as counter-demonstrators show up: either the Nazis get to continue their demonstrating with a larger audience, or violence breaks out and the Nazis get even MORE press. The counter-demonstrators are giving the neo-Nazis exactly what they want most.

not all press is good press. especially when it shows nazis as weak and outnumbered by the local ARA alone. nazis need to look strong to win. it's what they thrive on. without allowing them that, they lose.

The Nazis get arrested again, but they also have proof of black people acting like animals.

\
Actually, no members of the NSM or any of their supporters got arrested, only the ARA got arrested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythogria
1. I am fully supportive of what the counter-protestors did. I believe they all deserve medals. Nazism is evil.

2. Besides, all humans are animals. We're just intelligent ones.
1. So you're against freedom of expression???

2. Sometimes I wonder!

1. I am not against peaceful freedom of expression. I am against rascist expression.

2. It's true.