NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: This editorial makes quite a bit of sense to me. What are your thoughts?


Silenced by Islamist Rage (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/25/opinion/25sat3.html?th&emc=th)


Published: February 25, 2006
With every new riot over the Danish cartoons, it becomes clearer that the protests are no longer about the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, but about the demagoguery of Islamic extremists. The demonstrators are undeniably outraged by what they perceive as blasphemy. But radical Islamists are trying to harness that indignation to their political goals and their theocratic ends by fomenting hatred for the West and for moderate regimes in the Muslim world. These are dangerous games, and they require the most resolute response.

It is not the West that is most threatened in this crisis. The voices of moderation in the Muslim world are the ones that are being intimidated and silenced. Those few journalists and leaders who have spoken out against the rioting have been vilified and assailed, and even jailed. According to a report by Michael Slackman and Hassan M. Fattah in The New York Times, 11 journalists in five Islamic countries face prosecution for printing some of the Danish cartoons, even when their purpose was to condemn them.

In most of these cases, the legal action represents attempts by cowed authorities to appease the Islamists. But the effect — in Yemen, Jordan and other countries — has only been to give extremists a dollop of legitimacy, and to encourage them to turn up the heat. That, in turn, increases the perception of a "clash of civilizations" between Islam and the West.

It is time for moderate Muslims to abandon the illusion that they can placate the Islamists by straddling the fence. It is they who must explain to their people that the cartoons were an isolated incident, and not the face of hostile crusaders. It is they who must make it clear to their people that blowing up mosques, beheading hostages and strapping on belts of explosives are far, far greater evils than a few drawings in a distant paper. They must do so because their future is at stake — not Denmark's.

*yawn*

*yawn*
Europe yawns with you.

We've got a bird flu confirmation in France to keep us occupied news-wise this weekend.

Europe yawns with you.

We've got a bird flu confirmation in France to keep us occupied news-wise this weekend.

Precisely. We moved on, it's time the people on the other side of the Atlantic do so, too.

COMMENTARY: This editorial makes quite a bit of sense to me. What are your thoughts?


Silenced by Islamist Rage (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/25/opinion/25sat3.html?th&emc=th)


Published: February 25, 2006
With every new riot over the Danish cartoons, it becomes clearer that the protests are no longer about the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, but about the demagoguery of Islamic extremists. The demonstrators are undeniably outraged by what they perceive as blasphemy. But radical Islamists are trying to harness that indignation to their political goals and their theocratic ends by fomenting hatred for the West and for moderate regimes in the Muslim world. These are dangerous games, and they require the most resolute response.

It is not the West that is most threatened in this crisis. The voices of moderation in the Muslim world are the ones that are being intimidated and silenced. Those few journalists and leaders who have spoken out against the rioting have been vilified and assailed, and even jailed. According to a report by Michael Slackman and Hassan M. Fattah in The New York Times, 11 journalists in five Islamic countries face prosecution for printing some of the Danish cartoons, even when their purpose was to condemn them.

In most of these cases, the legal action represents attempts by cowed authorities to appease the Islamists. But the effect — in Yemen, Jordan and other countries — has only been to give extremists a dollop of legitimacy, and to encourage them to turn up the heat. That, in turn, increases the perception of a "clash of civilizations" between Islam and the West.

It is time for moderate Muslims to abandon the illusion that they can placate the Islamists by straddling the fence. It is they who must explain to their people that the cartoons were an isolated incident, and not the face of hostile crusaders. It is they who must make it clear to their people that blowing up mosques, beheading hostages and strapping on belts of explosives are far, far greater evils than a few drawings in a distant paper. They must do so because their future is at stake — not Denmark's.
WHat did you think was going on? People like that will use any excuse they can get. We just have to move on.

Are you trying to brainwash us through repetition?

The other thing to bear in mind is, it takes two to perpetuate a cycle of violence. The fundamentalists who over-reacted are not going to get over it if they keep getting goaded into a response by the press. It has been an unfortunate episode, but like the riots in Paris, there is nothing to be gained by raking over the coals.

Precisely. We moved on, it's time the people on the other side of the Atlantic do so, too.

Yep. It's been discussed to death already and last time I heard, most people in Denmark don't care anymore.

That's not to say that certain nationalists parties have experienced a boost in their polls...

Europe yawns with you.

We've got a bird flu confirmation in France to keep us occupied news-wise this weekend.



Personally, I find global virus epidemics more interesting that hypocritical muslims.

That's not to say that certain nationalists parties have experienced a boost in their polls...
We haven't even had that. People have been too preoccupied with the discovery that half the Liberal Democrat Party leadership was secretly gay. Now that sells newspapers.

Precisely. We moved on, it's time the people on the other side of the Atlantic do so, too.

Silenced by Swedish Apathy!

We haven't even had that. People have been too preoccupied with the discovery that half the Liberal Democrat Party leadership was secretly gay. Now that sells newspapers.

Meh, DF (Dansk Folkeparti) rose by 5% to 15% in the polls. Unfortunately.

And interesting, secretly gay, huh? I bet Fass will love to know that :p

And interesting, secretly gay, huh? I bet Fass will love to know that :p
We're talking overweight middle-aged politicians here. :p

Precisely. We moved on, it's time the people on the other side of the Atlantic do so, too.

Unfortunately, there's something about America being able to hold onto a grudge for generations. We'll probably be seeing the "planes-hitting-towers-we-will-never-forget" pablum well into our grandchildren's elderly years.

'Tis sad, but we just don't "move on".

Unfortunately, there's something about America being able to hold onto a grudge for generations. We'll probably be seeing the "planes-hitting-towers-we-will-never-forget" pablum well into our grandchildren's elderly years.

'Tis sad, but we just don't "move on".

It can be somewhat amusing to be the English guy somewhere like rural Georgia. I meet an interesting mix of people, some of whom feel compelled, on finding out I am English, to let their first words be something about 'how they bailed us out in 'dubulya dubulya too'...' or about us 'getting our asses handed to us in the War of Independence'...

Certainly, some Americans need to learn a lesson or two in 'get over it, already'.

Certainly, some Americans need to learn a lesson or two in 'get over it, already'.
Yeah, especially all the southerners who still wish the pro-slavery side had won. :rolleyes:

But radical Islamists are trying to harness that indignation to their political goals and their theocratic ends by fomenting hatred for the West and for moderate regimes in the Muslim world.

I don't see any mention, however, of the Bush regime stirring up anti-Islam sentiment in the West, to start a war in the Middle-East, following a terrorist attack by..... Saudis?

Yeah, especially all the southerners who still wish the pro-slavery side had won. :rolleyes:

Heh. Looking at it from the unique perspective of an outsider... both 'sides' kept slaves, and the 'civil' war was less about that, and more about maintaining the Union. There's little room for 'moral highground'... but, you illustrate my point: the 'north' will not let the 'slavery' thing die, and the 'south' will not bury Fort Sumter.

Get over it, I say... none of us were 'there'. How about we fix our futures, rather than nursing the wounds of our grandfathers in antiquity?

I don't see any mention, however, of the Bush regime stirring up anti-Islam sentiment in the West, to start a war in the Middle-East, following a terrorist attack by..... Saudis?
And it's working. Just look at that port deal. Apparently because the buyers are Arabs, there's no telling what they might do. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, there's something about America being able to hold onto a grudge for generations. We'll probably be seeing the "planes-hitting-towers-we-will-never-forget" pablum well into our grandchildren's elderly years.

'Tis sad, but we just don't "move on".

It has nothing to do with holding a grudge. We should never forget 911 just as we should never forget Pearl Harbor. We should never forget that we were attacked nor should we ever forget the innocent people who died on those occasions.

It can be somewhat amusing to be the English guy somewhere like rural Georgia. I meet an interesting mix of people, some of whom feel compelled, on finding out I am English, to let their first words be something about 'how they bailed us out in 'dubulya dubulya too'...' or about us 'getting our asses handed to us in the War of Independence'...

Certainly, some Americans need to learn a lesson or two in 'get over it, already'.

Have the English forgotten their history? Why should the US forget theirs?

And it's working. Just look at that port deal. Apparently because the buyers are Arabs, there's no telling what they might do. :rolleyes:

Indeed. It doesn't matter that we are (loosely) 'allies' with the UAE, we just can't trust people from the Middle East to do anything important... apparently.

My big worry would be LESS about the ports, to be honest.... and more about who supplies the labour force for, say, Yucca Mountain...

Have the English forgotten their history? Why should the US forget theirs?
They don't throw it in your face every chance they get.:rolleyes:

Heh. Looking at it from the unique perspective of an outsider... both 'sides' kept slaves, and the 'war' of Independence was less about that, and more about maintaining the Union. There's little room for 'moral highground'... but, you illustrate my point: the 'north' will not let the 'slavery' thing die, and the 'south' will not bury Fort Sumter.

Get over it, I say... none of us were 'there'. How about we fix our futures, rather than nursing the wounds of our grandfathers in antiquity?

Me thinks you have our wars confused. The "war of Independence" was the revolution and fought against the English. The war about "maintaining the Union" was the Civil War.

Have the English forgotten their history? Why should the US forget theirs?

I don't know... I have met a lot of French people, without ever feeling the need to explain to them about how 'we saved their asses' in world war something, or about how we kicked their monarchy out and replaced them with honest to goodness English (well, German) monarchs....

Just get over it already.

Why do you feel the need to perpetuate hate? Independence was a long time ago, so why get all 'wet' about it now? The 'other side' doesn't care! What is the point of trying to stir up a reaction?

Me thinks you have our wars confused. The "war of Independence" was the revolution and fought against the English. The war about "maintaining the Union" was the Civil War.

Very true... thinking about two different things, and typed the wrong name.

They don't throw it in your face every chance they get.:rolleyes:
Ohh ya! We totally owned you at Meerut LOLOLOL!!!

*Arse-spanking motions*

If it weren't for us, you'd still be wearing grass skirts, living in mud huts and getting eaten by tigers! Haha!

:rolleyes: Thank god we don't hear that often.

I don't know... I have met a lot of French people, without ever feeling the need to explain to them about how 'we saved their asses' in world war something, or about how we kicked their monarchy out and replaced them with honest to goodness English (well, German) monarchs....

Just get over it already.

Why do you feel the need to perpetuate hate? Independence was a long time ago, so why get all 'wet' about it now? The 'other side' doesn't care! What is the point of trying to stir up a reaction?

I think you have taken something wrong. When we talk to England now about the War for Independence it is more like two friends talking about a golf game or something same with WW II. For the most part it isn't hateful, I say most part because I am sure there are a few idiots out there that do. Now England and the US are about as close ally wise as you can get. And by England I mean the United Kingdom and not the actual province.

Ohh ya! We totally owned you at Meerut LOLOLOL!!!

*Arse-spanking motions*

If it weren't for us, you'd still be wearing grass skirts, living in mud huts and getting eaten by tigers! Haha!

:rolleyes: Thank god we don't hear that often.
Don't know what you are referring to, but who cares? We got our butt kicked by everyone.:p

Don't know what you are referring to, but who cares? We got our butt kicked by everyone.:p
I was referring to one of the many British Imperial massacres in India.

I think you have taken something wrong. When we talk to England now about the War for Independence it is more like two friends talking about a golf game or something same with WW II. For the most part it isn't hateful, I say most part because I am sure there are a few idiots out there that do. Now England and the US are about as close ally wise as you can get. And by England I mean the United Kingdom and not the actual province.

Like I said... it is 'some' of the Americans I meet, and it could be entirely the geography... this part of the country has some curious ways.

But... that's kind of the point of the thread... there are always some who just will not let an issue rest, and will pick and pick at it, till they see blood.

Maybe we look at the international Islamist (not Islamic) violence differently because we come from a country full of religious loonies and know exactly how much trouble they can really be if allowed to do violence in the name of religion? IMO dealing with religious loonies is somthing Europe forgot how to do not long after the French Revolution. :(

IMO dealing with religious loonies is somthing Europe forgot how to do not long after the French Revolution. :(
Because they all left for America. You wonder why Europe is so secular? There's your reason. Anyone with any religious conviction chose to leave.

Because they all left for America. You wonder why Europe is so secular? There's your reason. Anyone with any religious conviction chose to leave.
You wouldn't be willing to take 'em back, would you? Repatriate 'em?


Please?

You wouldn't be willing to take 'em back, would you? Repatriate 'em?


Please?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!:mad: The christian party over here is big enough as it is now.

You wouldn't be willing to take 'em back, would you? Repatriate 'em?

Please?
Hell no. It's one of the nice things about Europe, no meaningful religious contribution to politics. This hype over fundamentalist Islam is nothing compared to what this place would be like if all the now-American Christians were still here. We don't have to defend abortion and evolution in the courts every month.

Because they all left for America. You wonder why Europe is so secular? There's your reason. Anyone with any religious conviction chose to leave.
And therefore, we secularists in the US probably have a better handle on the danger to the World that is Islamisim than 'yalll do. Not that we necessairly have better answers, but at least we recognize the danger and are willing to call a Wolf a Wolf.

And therefore, we secularists in the US probably have a better handle on the danger to the World that is Islamisim than 'yalll do. Not that we necessairly have better answers, but at least we recognize the danger and are willing to call a Wolf a Wolf.
But you are rendered powerless to do anything, because it's not the secularists in power in America, and it never will be in my lifetime. You blew it, and are corrupted by the very danger you sought to address. Europe is the pre-eminent secular Western culture now.

But you are rendered powerless to do anything, because it's not the secularists in power in America, and it never will be in my lifetime. You blew it, and are corrupted by the very danger you sought to address. Europe is the pre-eminent secular Western culture now.
Unless and untill you choose Sharia in order to appease the Islamists...

For all the Secularisim of Europe, the antagonisim shown to Christians seems to be a distinctly lacking when it comes to Islamisim.

Unless and untill you choose Sharia in order to appease the Islamists...

For all the Secularisim of Europe, the antagonisim shown to Christians seems to be a distinctly lacking when it comes to Islamisim.
Simply not going to happen. You cannot grasp the monolithic nature of the bureaucracies here. Their favourite word is no. I point you to the response of the governments of Europe as their embassies burned. Did they cave in and appease? No, they didn't even give a fuck, and the UK government barely passed comment. It's a far stronger response, speaking of greater resilience, than the instant whining provoked in the US. Europe is unlikely to ever give in to religious fundamentalism - America already has, so has no lessons to teach us.

Europe is unlikely to ever give in to religious fundamentalism

Unless it's Eastern Europe, and thus doesn't count?

America already has, so has no lessons to teach us.

That, however, is true.

It can be somewhat amusing to be the English guy somewhere like rural Georgia. I meet an interesting mix of people, some of whom feel compelled, on finding out I am English, to let their first words be something about 'how they bailed us out in 'dubulya dubulya too'...' or about us 'getting our asses handed to us in the War of Independence'...

Certainly, some Americans need to learn a lesson or two in 'get over it, already'.
Hehe, over here in the metro-Atlanta I know more Brits than rural Georgians. However, they're more narrow-minded in general, though they have nothing against Brits that I can see. :rolleyes:
All Muslims are extremist terrorists, all Jews are rich (which says a lot here in an upper-class region) and stingy, and pretty much any other stereotype you can come up with.
/sigh

Edit: Yay for derailing perfectly good conversations!

Unless it's Eastern Europe, and thus doesn't count?

Fass sweetie, are you going to make me want to give you a back rub? I so much more prefer to be annoyed with you... :p

That, however, is true.Ah. That's better... even if I essentially agree. We, at this juncture, don't know how to properly deal with Islamisim, but at least our intimate (bleah) contact with religious loonies lets us know danger when it appears. (Unfortunately, OUR loonies have gotten smart and stopped lynching people and have thus become electable.... sigh...) :headbang:

Europe yawns with you.

We've got a bird flu confirmation in France to keep us occupied news-wise this weekend.

Japans stopped buying all French Poultry.

French Poultry sales have slipped down to 1 sale per year by Jacques Chirac and the economy is in crisis...

Should I pip, toot or honk?

Maybe we look at the international Islamist (not Islamic) violence differently because we come from a country full of religious loonies and know exactly how much trouble they can really be if allowed to do violence in the name of religion? IMO dealing with religious loonies is somthing Europe forgot how to do not long after the French Revolution. :(
Funny that you mention the French Revolution. Maybe brutal mass killing is the best way to deal with religious loonies? ;)

Fass sweetie, are you going to make me want to give you a back rub?

Go lower.

Unless and untill you choose Sharia in order to appease the Islamists...

For all the Secularisim of Europe, the antagonisim shown to Christians seems to be a distinctly lacking when it comes to Islamisim.
Where's the proof that this will ever happen? We have some problems with Muslim radicals, but the vast majority of Europeans like secularism too much to just give it up.

Are you going by the 'logic' that Europe = limp-wristed liberals?

They don't throw it in your face every chance they get.:rolleyes:


Hmm, right, like the way the American Civil War was just brought up out of nowhere by Europeans?

Hmm, right, like the way the American Civil War was just brought up out of nowhere by Europeans?

In conjunction with an accusation that US people keep bringing it up. Reading the thread does help...

In conjunction with an accusation that US people keep bringing it up. Reading the thread does help...

I did read it, thanks. I do get tired of the hypocrisy of Europeans pointing at how Americans always bring these things up when I rarely hear Americans discuss them.

And please, don't trot out the sad old freedom fries crap again.

I did read it, thanks. I do get tired of the hypocrisy of Europeans pointing at how Americans always bring these things up when I rarely hear Americans discuss them.

Do you, like, even read these forums at all? Because I do quite call BS on that claim.

And please, don't trot out the sad old freedom fries crap again.

Don't trot out the crap, period.