NationStates Jolt Archive

Yay! Hypothetical History!

So, what do you think would have happened if Germany had won WWI?

Two possible scenarios in which that could have happened:

1) The Generals stick to the Schlieffen Plan in 1914 and make the right wing strong enough to take out the Allies on the Marne and take Paris. The British retreat north and the French sue for peace. The war ends.

2) Zombie-Germany, ruled by the military, plagued by a shortage of everything and where academia has taken to believing in the futility of everything, wins in 1918 when the Allied front collapses during the Spring Offensives.

The result would probably have been very different, so consider that.

And to start off the discussion, here is an hypothesis (http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/ifgermany.htm) that a German victory would not have prevented the rise of the Nazis.

Well, Germany won on the Eastern Front. Which sucked for Romania.

I agree that a victory would have prevented the Nazis as such from ever gaining power. But Italian Fascism, oh boy, would've still been around. My guess is that it would've stuck more to its Syndicalist (even Anarchist?) roots. If they considered the war lost when they had won it in fact, you can picture...

We'd still have those scary pointed hats. :ugh:

Not entirely certain if I buy the theory that the Nazis could have come to power if Gemrnay had won the war. Not only because of all the obvious 'the world wars should be seen as one linked event' stuff, but also because the nazi party was very much a working class movement, made of poor, angry thugs. Had Germany won the war it would have remained an aristocratic state that would gradually evolve into a middle class democracy, with fairly conservative politics.

Oh that's easy:

If Germany had won WWI, John Kerry would have won election 2004.

Don't ask me how I came to that. Conjecture is awesome.

We'd still have those scary pointed hats. :ugh:

scary (http://www.12move.de/home/joerg-dehn/Pickelhauben/pickelhauben.html)

we'd also have shiny medal covered uniforms. neat-o!
and headresses (http://www.12move.de/home/joerg-dehn/PickelhaubeGeneralWurttParade.jpg)
(the u.s. wore spiked helmets prior to span-am war 1898. can someone verify?)

can someone verify?
Funny you should ask. I was just about to get in my time machine.

Derzeitig die Welt würdet sprechen Deutsch. Hagel Hitler!

(the u.s. wore spiked helmets prior to span-am war 1898. can someone verify?)
Most people did. The British had versions for their colonial troops.

But I like those hats. What's wrong with them?

And for actual combat, they soon took to using more useful equipment (http://www.worldwar1.com/photos/rlh005.jpg) anyway.

Derzeitig die Welt würdet sprechen Deutsch. Hagel Hitler!
That is so poor on so many levels.

And for actual combat, they soon took to using more useful equipment (http://www.worldwar1.com/photos/rlh005.jpg) anyway.

didn't that occur with the shift to the M.1915 Bluse uniform? i think that was influenced by production times, anyway.

Derzeitig die Welt würdet sprechen Deutsch. Hagel Hitler!
*drops head into hands*
So ein Untermensch.

i think that was influenced by production times, anyway.
Possible, although I would say that these new helmets were somewhat more useful than those with the spikes. It's just a symbol of the old, romantic stuff being replaced by cold, hard practicality.

Possible, although I would say that these new helmets were somewhat more useful than those with the spikes. It's just a symbol of the old, romantic stuff being replaced by cold, hard practicality.

the pickelhauben were used for ceremonial/dress/parade uses only, i think.

officers wore them more often

Funny you should ask. I was just about to get in my time machine.

hooray sarcasm

the pickelhauben were used for ceremonial/dress/parade uses only, i think.
There were both versions.

http://greatwar.nl/germany/marne.jpg

*drops head into hands*
So ein Untermensch.
Ich bin kein untermenschlich , Ich bin Italiener.

Man a lot of you people are still awaiting that one last "final victory" for the master race, let it die already. The Jews beat you, they outlasted you and you are finished, put your ego away and help the human race or get off the planet.

:mad:

Man a lot of you people are still awaiting that one last "final victory" for the master race, let it die already. The Jews beat you, they outlasted you and you are finished, put your ego away and help the human race or get off the planet.

:mad:

i'm sorry, did you know germany existed before 1933? just checking.
kaiser =/= nazi

i know the only thing people think when they think germany is hitler, but learn some history.

I doubt Germany could of won WWI as it was pretty much alone near the end of the war though I do know from a previous stuff I did that if the ottomans had succeeded in an attempted invasion of Egypt it would of done some real damage particularly if it had succeeded in causing the planned Islamic revolts across the middle east but not even that could win the great war (though it would save the Ottomans empire)

I like the real ending more because its for the most part happier, gave the basic story to star wars and also showed that Empire was now pointless as the new territories were a major drain on the British and French

(There is also allot of less pleasant stuff that was avoided but I won’t get into that)

I wonder if anyone has put an alternative ending on a war film yet?

There were both versions.

with the helmet covers, nice pic. why are the closest guy and the half-standing guy wearing iron crosses 2nd class? especially if this is pre-battle?

Ich bin kein untermenschlich , Ich bin Italiener.
Same thing. ;)

I doubt Germany could of won WWI as it was pretty much alone near the end of the war...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_offensive

I like the real ending more because its for the most part happier...
I suppose that's a question of perspective.

why are the closest guy and the half-standing guy wearing iron crosses 2nd class? especially if this is pre-battle?
I wouldn't have a clue. To be honest, I wouldn't even be able to recognise them.
But I suppose that the Battle of the Marne wasn't the first one, and the Germans had some pretty good times before that, so they might have earned them there.

I wouldn't have a clue. To be honest, I wouldn't even be able to recognise them.

sorry. just open speculation on my part. thought maybe someone with medal knowledge would impart their wisdom.
(oh, and by the way, 1st class has no ribbon [it's a pin] and 2nd class is worn around the neck or on the breast with a short ribbon [as in the pic]. whoa, i know a lot)

1) The Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian Empires would never have fallen.

2) In the 30s/40s, we would very likely have seen a war between a (mostly) still-Monarchial Europe and Soviet Russia, which would probably have allied with Japan. (While Japan was Imperial, its Axis Alliance in WW2 was more geographical than philosophical.)

3) I'll take a contrarian POV: Italian Fascism would have unlikely taken hold in Italy. Since only 1 monarchy (Russia) was destroyed instead of 4, the others would work (as they had for centuries) to crush such things.

4) Alsace/Lorraine are forever German.

5) The Reparations by the Allies to the Central Powers basically work out the same way: the economy collapses and there is still a 1929 Depression.

6) The British Empire loses a bit of it's lustre; some of the colonies go to Germany and Austria (ie: South-West Africa).

7) The British Navy is used to pay part of Britain's share of the war cost; Germany is now a major sea power and rebuilds the Pacific base in China.

8) Since Vienna is now awash in riches it hasn't seen since the reign of Maria Theresa, Hitler goes to art college as a war veteran.

9) With the Junkers running Germany and the Habsburgs still in command in AH, the Allies paying for the war... science goes into a slow period. Unlike in our history, technology slows as there is no prolonged Spanish Civil War, no Nazi arms buildup, and little money for private investment in most of Europe.

10) France ditches the Third Republic for a Third Empire, probably of the House of Orleans (ala Action Française?), since Napoleon IV died in 1879 having had no offspring.

I doubt Germany could of won WWI as it was pretty much alone near the end of the war

Actually, they very nearly carried it off with the 1918 Spring Offensive. For want of some provisions and a good field communication system, or the Americans being delayed 6 months, or Russia quitting 6 months earlier...

hate to break it up but. . .
1) The Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian Empires would never have fallen.

ehh. . . i dont know about ottoman. sick man of europe for 70-80 years? wouldn't last long.

2) In the 30s/40s, we would very likely have seen a war between a (mostly) still-Monarchial Europe and Soviet Russia, which would probably have allied with Japan. (While Japan was Imperial, its Axis Alliance in WW2 was more geographical than philosophical.)

quite possible

3) I'll take a contrarian POV: Italian Fascism would have unlikely taken hold in Italy. Since only 1 monarchy (Russia) was destroyed instead of 4, the others would work (as they had for centuries) to crush such things.

since the trains would still be on time, i assume fascismo would never happen

4) Alsace/Lorraine are forever German.

i love the fact that france gave them away.

5) The Reparations by the Allies to the Central Powers basically work out the same way: the economy collapses and there is still a 1929 Depression.

true, but does that sink the other monarchies/countries?

6) The British Empire loses a bit of it's lustre; some of the colonies go to Germany and Austria (ie: South-West Africa).

of course. since the brits destroyed german influence, the germans would do the same.

7) The British Navy is used to pay part of Britain's share of the war cost; Germany is now a major sea power and rebuilds the Pacific base in China.

give part of the navy? i dont think the brits would allow it to happen

8) Since Vienna is now awash in riches it hasn't seen since the reign of Maria Theresa, Hitler goes to art college as a war veteran.

if only. . . . .

9) With the Junkers running Germany and the Habsburgs still in command in AH, the Allies paying for the war... science goes into a slow period. Unlike in our history, technology slows as there is no prolonged Spanish Civil War, no Nazi arms buildup, and little money for private investment in most of Europe.

are you ignoring the forgotten achievements of imperial german scientists? but without major war, science would progress but at a much slower rate as you said.

10) France ditches the Third Republic for a Third Empire, probably of the House of Orleans (ala Action Française?), since Napoleon IV died in 1879 having had no offspring.

that i'd love to see

1) The Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian Empires would never have fallen.

Only in the first-case scenario. In the second, they weren't around anymore (and Austria per se was kinda held by the Germans). Well, the Ottomans were - strictly in Anatolia.

3) I'll take a contrarian POV: Italian Fascism would have unlikely taken hold in Italy. Since only 1 monarchy (Russia) was destroyed instead of 4, the others would work (as they had for centuries) to crush such things.

I don't give much chance to the survival of the Savoy dynasty.

5) The Reparations by the Allies to the Central Powers basically work out the same way: the economy collapses and there is still a 1929 Depression.

Complicated issue.

6) The British Empire loses a bit of it's lustre; some of the colonies go to Germany and Austria (ie: South-West Africa).

Since Austria would not have been around... Plus, SWA was German already.

7) The British Navy is used to pay part of Britain's share of the war cost; Germany is now a major sea power and rebuilds the Pacific base in China.

Yeah, except everyone found, to their chagrin, that fleet didn't help much anymore. The UK showed its weakness in real history by clinging on to an oversized naval industry.

8) Since Vienna is now awash in riches it hasn't seen since the reign of Maria Theresa, Hitler goes to art college as a war veteran.

And becomes a renowned house painter.

9) With the Junkers running Germany and the Habsburgs still in command in AH, the Allies paying for the war... science goes into a slow period. Unlike in our history, technology slows as there is no prolonged Spanish Civil War, no Nazi arms buildup, and little money for private investment in most of Europe.

See my previous points.

10) France ditches the Third Republic for a Third Empire, probably of the House of Orleans (ala Action Française?), since Napoleon IV died in 1879 having had no offspring.

Good point. I think it gets the closest-to-real-life Fascism (even in real life, an Israeli historian sees the Cercle Proudhon, a Syndicalist associate of the Action Francaise, as the source for Fascism).

1) The Generals stick to the Schlieffen Plan in 1914 and make the right wing strong enough to take out the Allies on the Marne and take Paris. The British retreat north and the French sue for peace. The war ends.

And Continental balance is restored. I'll go for this version.

hate to break it up but. . .

Not at all, like to hear other POVs...

ehh. . . i dont know about ottoman. sick man of europe for 70-80 years? wouldn't last long.

Hard to say. Nations rise and fall all the time. The Reparations would have gone a long way to fix the country.

i love the fact that france gave them away.

They lost them in 1870... having lost, not like they'd get them back in defeat, eh? ;)

true, but does that sink the other monarchies/countries?

That's a good question. If our history is any indication, not enough that it would really matter.

give part of the navy? i dont think the brits would allow it to happen

The Germans had to at Scapa Flow, and it's not like a Reparations paying UK could afford the ships anyway.


are you ignoring the forgotten achievements of imperial german scientists? but without major war, science would progress but at a much slower rate as you said.

No, not forgetting, but in a fused Junker/Weimar cultured Germany, it'd just be slower.

that i'd love to see

Me too, if only because I think that the French after they were allowed to occupy the Rhur turned into a bunch of wankers.

They lost them in 1870... having lost, not like they'd get them back in defeat, eh?
i meant they gave them to germany. as far as i know, bismarck did not particularly want alsace lorraine.

i meant they gave them to germany. as far as i know, bismarck did not particularly want alsace lorraine.
Well, whoever made the decision, I doubt the French just decided to give the land away by the sheer goodness of their heart.

Only in the first-case scenario. In the second, they weren't around anymore (and Austria per se was kinda held by the Germans). Well, the Ottomans were - strictly in Anatolia.

Kaiser Bill hated Crown Prince Rudolph, but he's long dead, and in 1918 so is Franz Joseph for 2 years.
Karl I (having tried to make peace with France) would probably have been forced to abdicate in favor of another Habsburg... perhaps his brother Maximilian, perhaps to Duke Albrecht Eugen Maria Philipp Carl Joseph Fortunatus of Württemberg. He was a son of Albrecht, the Duke of Württemberg (and a German Generalfeldmarschall) and Margarete Sophie of Austria.

True, where they'd mostly always been. But an Ottoman Empire revived and with oil... makes an interesting twist for the 30s and 40s.

I don't give much chance to the survival of the Savoy dynasty.

True, but it'd be easier to arrange a new dynasty with the Central Powers still in existance.

Complicated issue.
Money usually is. :D


Since Austria would not have been around... Plus, SWA was German already.

It likely would have been, IMHO. Even a victorious Germany had many wounds to lick, and even Kaiser Bill knew that he couldn't just annex the Habsburg lands. Heck, the other three greater German states probably wouldn't stand for it!

Yes, but an enlarged one.

Yeah, except everyone found, to their chagrin, that fleet didn't help much anymore. The UK showed its weakness in real history by clinging on to an oversized naval industry.

Somewhat, but it made the Second War a lot easier on them. Without their naval power, the U-Boat blockade would have been their end. A massive German fleet would have been useful in the eventual war (let's face it, the Junkers love war) with the USSR.

And becomes a renowned house painter.
Ayep. :D

Good point. I think it gets the closest-to-real-life Fascism (even in real life, an Israeli historian sees the Cercle Proudhon, a Syndicalist associate of the Action Francaise, as the source for Fascism).

Perhaps... perhaps... perhaps... :)

If Germany had won WWII George W Bush would have appointed instead of elected.

:cool:

Hmm....
1) Ottoman Empire falls apart
2) Germany takes land from France for reperation
3) Germany gains control of most if not all of Britain's land in Africa
4) Weak German government abdicates, Republic formed
4) Life goes back to usual in America
5) Roaring Twenties begin followed by stock market crash
6) Socialism takes hold in Britain
7) Russia gets into scuffle with Japan and is defeated
8) Britain, Russia, and old pal France face off against Germany, Japan
9) Japan invades China
10) France and Britain are defeated, Russia fights on, but Germany develops nuclear weapons and bombs them Hiroshima/Nagasaki
11) United States sits back and watches world blow itself up
12) Cold War between Germany annd Japan

Probably unlikely, but an interesting situation

i meant they gave them to germany. as far as i know, bismarck did not particularly want alsace lorraine.

Bismarck wanted anything which strengthened Germany. A-L did that just fine, and had been in German hands before, anyway.

As I recall, Bismarck was originally hesitant to annex any French land but was convinced to take Alsace-Lorraine both by nationalist and economic arguments. The region, was, after all, one of the prime sources of iron ore in Europe. Along with the enormous coal deposits of the Ruhr, it helped launch Germany as an economic superpower.

Furthermore, it gave Germany a good defensive position against a reprisal attack.

I've always felt that dabbling in alternate history is dangerous.


Dangerous because it's addicting and the possibilities for any given situation are nearly endless.


It's best to analyze history topically and thematically in order to help better the future.


Though it is pretty fun, I must admit to having done it myself in the past.