NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok I see the words "liberal" and "Conservative" thrown about as insults by people who don't seem to know what the two actually are refering to. Here are the definitions as I understand them:

Conservative- An idealogy that doesn't make sudden moves, and thus aims at safe policy. Wants to conserve the status quo, and keep things as they are, or to bring them back to the way things were done in a perceived better time. Its opposite would be an idealogy that sought to cause reform or revolution, to improve the world.

Liberal- Generally an idealogy that espouses liberty, its right there in the word. Liberals wan't to live and let live with the sole exception that no one has the right to infringe on anothers liberty. Generally, a "liberal" is someone who values freedom. The opposite would be an authoritarian idealogy.

Notice that although the two often butt heads in politics, that they are not mutually exclusive.

It is with these definitions that I describe myself as a liberal, but not as a conservative.

However, seeing as these two (more often liberal) are used as insults (at least in the US), what is insulting about being called each of these things? Is there another definition I am unaware of? What do you think these terms mean?

Because, in the US, the terms have been coopted by Right Wing Religionists (conservative) and Leftis/Socialists (Liberal)

As has been stated adinfinitum here, a Euro Liberal is a US Libertarian (roughly).

With each definition comes a percieved stereotype:

Conservative: Redneck homophobe racist who sits on his porch with a shotgun and reads the Bible

Liberal:Sexually promiscous, marijuana smoking hippie

well my treads falling like an anvil....

Only because it has been answered... ;)

Doesn't liberal mean something along the lines of they want things to change or be flexible when need be literally speaking?

I'm not sure "conservative" is actually used as an insult. Neocon, yes, but just conservative is something that many might not disagree with, but is not yet used as an insult.

Liberal is just the problem that the definition is one thing, but the actual meaning differs from country to country. I don't see why people would use it as an insult, and I still find it fascinating that the word could have changed its meaning by 180° like that in the States, but yes, your definitions are pretty much spot-on.

Ok I see the words "liberal" and "Conservative" thrown about as insults by people who don't seem to know what the two actually are refering to. Here are the definitions as I understand them:

Conservative- An idealogy that doesn't make sudden moves, and thus aims at safe policy. Wants to conserve the status quo, and keep things as they are, or to bring them back to the way things were done in a perceived better time. Its opposite would be an idealogy that sought to cause reform or revolution, to improve the world.

Liberal- Generally an idealogy that espouses liberty, its right there in the word. Liberals wan't to live and let live with the sole exception that no one has the right to infringe on anothers liberty. Generally, a "liberal" is someone who values freedom. The opposite would be an authoritarian idealogy.

Notice that although the two often butt heads in politics, that they are not mutually exclusive.

It is with these definitions that I describe myself as a liberal, but not as a conservative.

However, seeing as these two (more often liberal) are used as insults (at least in the US), what is insulting about being called each of these things? Is there another definition I am unaware of? What do you think these terms mean?
Neither definition is accurate, at least not America.

The definitions seem accurate from a technical point of view... but this is politics. Popular usage overrides everything else, including logic, reason, history, political theory and the Constitution.

In the US, the defintions are as follows:

Conservative: the enemy, if you're a Liberal of any kind. otherwise, your ally.
Liberal: the enemy, if you're a Conservative of any kind. otherwise, your ally.

Neither definition is accurate, at least not America.
Let's hear your version then.

Leftis/Socialists (Liberal)

Socialists? In America? where? Sure would like to meet them.

From my outsiders point of view liberal hasnt got stuck on real left wingers or socialists, but the generally right of centre politics espoused by the Democrats. Generally it seems to be a stereotype suggesting either weak will, or people that "cant be trusted with security" etc.

Of course you have loonies like Anne Coulter, who just seem to be loopy in their use of the term.

But yes, liberal generally means you believe in a slightly more socially free society, and yes, you can have a liberal conservative, so the terms are not mutually exclusive.

And yes, conservative can also be used as an insult, but from my experience I think that is more prevelant in Britain (and maybe the rest of Europe too), when referring to the Tories. On the other hand, apart from the term "bleeding heart liberal" liberal is not generally used as an insult, and even then only by reactionary gits (I would suspect Daily Mail, and similar papers, readers would use such terms).

Socialists? In America? where? Sure would like to meet them.


*ahem* pleased to meet you. how may i make the gov't bigger?

minority right here. i'm under-represented! boo-hoo!

i don't have a real party! waaaaa!

With each definition comes a percieved stereotype:

Conservative: Redneck homophobe racist who sits on his porch with a shotgun and reads the Bible

Liberal:Sexually promiscous, marijuana smoking hippie

What about a sexually promiscous, weed smoking hippie redneck sitting on the porch with a shotgun, reading the bible?

Oh, thats Willie Nelson.:D

Using the European political definitions tends to make a lot more sense, and helps break up the false one-dimensional spectrum.

I'm surprised the term 'secular humanist' has yet to be demonized popularly amongst the USians.

The definition of Liberalism I've heard that I think best fits is a political ideology that supports Individual liberties.

The definition of Liberalism I've heard that I think best fits is a political ideology that supports Individual liberties.Which the "Liberals" in the US want nothing to do with... at least in regards to Firearms, Hunting, Land Use, Economics, Freedom of Association, Smoking, Private Property, Less Regulation etc.

(Of course, the converse is true with the "conservatives" who want nothing to do with Sex, Drugs, Reproductive Choice, Sexual Orientation, Less Regulation, etc.)

:headbang:

Which the "Liberals" in the US want nothing to do with...
Do they actually call themselves that though? It seems to me that the only time I ever see the word used is when various editorials talk about "teh liberals!!1!". But I don't get much US News here either.

Could those that think I got a definition wrong perhaps supply an alternative?

Ok I see the words "liberal" and "Conservative" thrown about as insults by people who don't seem to know what the two actually are refering to. Here are the definitions as I understand them:

Conservative- An idealogy that doesn't make sudden moves, and thus aims at safe policy. Wants to conserve the status quo, and keep things as they are, or to bring them back to the way things were done in a perceived better time. Its opposite would be an idealogy that sought to cause reform or revolution, to improve the world.

Liberal- Generally an idealogy that espouses liberty, its right there in the word. Liberals wan't to live and let live with the sole exception that no one has the right to infringe on anothers liberty. Generally, a "liberal" is someone who values freedom. The opposite would be an authoritarian idealogy.

Notice that although the two often butt heads in politics, that they are not mutually exclusive.

It is with these definitions that I describe myself as a liberal, but not as a conservative.

However, seeing as these two (more often liberal) are used as insults (at least in the US), what is insulting about being called each of these things? Is there another definition I am unaware of? What do you think these terms mean?

Your definitions are accurate in a broad sense, however my own definitions are as follows:

Conservative - you can keep your money, but not your rights.
Liberal - you can keep your rights, but not your money.

Do they actually call themselves that though? It seems to me that the only time I ever see the word used is when various editorials talk about "teh liberals!!1!". But I don't get much US News here either.

Yes, they do. Unlike conservative, however, liberal is used both as a self-describing label as well as a pejorative term by the right. Neoconservative has a similar usage; it's a label used by neocons as well as a pejorative by various opponents of neoconservatism to describe that ideology.

Conservative: We will tax you to enrich ourselves.

Liberal: We will tax you to support the unfit.

I find niether option to be particularly pleasant. Shit is shit, regardless of what shade of brown it may be.

Conservative: We will tax you to enrich ourselves.

Liberal: We will tax you to support the unfit.

I find niether option to be particularly pleasant. Shit is shit, regardless of what shade of brown it may be.
Sometimes it's green or yellow, which would mean socialism or American libertarianism.


I agree with the OP's definitions.

Socialists? In America? where? Sure would like to meet them.

From my outsiders point of view liberal hasnt got stuck on real left wingers or socialists, but the generally right of centre politics espoused by the Democrats. Generally it seems to be a stereotype suggesting either weak will, or people that "cant be trusted with security" etc.

Of course you have loonies like Anne Coulter, who just seem to be loopy in their use of the term.

But yes, liberal generally means you believe in a slightly more socially free society, and yes, you can have a liberal conservative, so the terms are not mutually exclusive.

And yes, conservative can also be used as an insult, but from my experience I think that is more prevelant in Britain (and maybe the rest of Europe too), when referring to the Tories. On the other hand, apart from the term "bleeding heart liberal" liberal is not generally used as an insult, and even then only by reactionary gits (I would suspect Daily Mail, and similar papers, readers would use such terms).


Allow me to direct you to our wonderful college campuses where the socialist clubs have literal free reign over the campus. Try and bring any remotly conservative group or speaker onto the campus and they shall be booed and shouted off the campus. Oh, and lets not forget the banning of military recruiters on some "liberal/socialist" campuses.

Which the "Liberals" in the US want nothing to do with... at least in regards to Firearms, Hunting, Land Use, Economics, Freedom of Association, Smoking, Private Property, Less Regulation etc.

(Of course, the converse is true with the "conservatives" who want nothing to do with Sex, Drugs, Reproductive Choice, Sexual Orientation, Less Regulation, etc.)

:headbang:

Lets not forget Emmenant Domain with the liberals!!
:headbang:

Ok I see the words "liberal" and "Conservative" thrown about as insults by people who don't seem to know what the two actually are refering to. Here are the definitions as I understand them:

Conservative- An idealogy that doesn't make sudden moves, and thus aims at safe policy. Wants to conserve the status quo, and keep things as they are, or to bring them back to the way things were done in a perceived better time. Its opposite would be an idealogy that sought to cause reform or revolution, to improve the world.

Liberal- Generally an idealogy that espouses liberty, its right there in the word. Liberals wan't to live and let live with the sole exception that no one has the right to infringe on anothers liberty. Generally, a "liberal" is someone who values freedom. The opposite would be an authoritarian idealogy.

Notice that although the two often butt heads in politics, that they are not mutually exclusive.

It is with these definitions that I describe myself as a liberal, but not as a conservative.

However, seeing as these two (more often liberal) are used as insults (at least in the US), what is insulting about being called each of these things? Is there another definition I am unaware of? What do you think these terms mean?

The conservatism is right but liberal is the reverse of conservatism. The reverse of authoritarianism is libertarianism. Liberals do desire more individual freedoms, but less economic freedom; the ideology is primarily about moving society forward in a positive direction, tossing aside useless and negative traditions, progressive social reforms.

Allow me to direct you to our wonderful college campuses where the socialist clubs have literal free reign over the campus. Try and bring any remotly conservative group or speaker onto the campus and they shall be booed and shouted off the campus. Oh, and lets not forget the banning of military recruiters on some "liberal/socialist" campuses.

Sounds like sour grapes from a lone college age conservative to me. Let me guess, Alex P. Keaton was an idol of yours as you grew up...

Ok, I appologize for that. But, honestly, that's a good bit of whineing up there.

Ok, I appologize for that. But, honestly, that's a good bit of whineing up there.
True. Conservatives have been complaining about socialist campuses for decades, yet it seems like the Republicans are pretty firmly in power.

Conservative- Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change
Liberal-Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry

Conservative-Bill O'Reilly
Liberal- Jon Kerry or John Edwards

Conservative-Good
Liberal-Bad

Liberal- John Kerry or John Edwards

Hahahahahahahaha! Not even close. Thanks for playing. ;)

However, seeing as these two (more often liberal) are used as insults (at least in the US), what is insulting about being called each of these things? Is there another definition I am unaware of? What do you think these terms mean?
Conservatives just like turning words to create new meaning (Newspeak). "Liberal" is one of them, wich you mentioned is now like a direct insult.

Basically it can be generalized down to:
Conservative: close-minded
Liberal: open-minded

Ok, I'm just going to run down the list of views and see if you can get anywhere from that:
Liberal:Pro-choise, gun-control, anti-death penalty, supports feminists, gay pride, any random minority, generally more protective of rights, raise taxes for various reasons, generally for seperation of church and state.

Conservative:Pro-life,pro 2nd amendment, pro-death penalty, for some reason tend not to support feminists, gay pride, or any random minority, generally want to restrict rights, lower taxes for various reasons, generally against seperation of church and state.

In the European sense, Conservatives are usually people who want no further social developments of any kind, ever. A handfull wants to turn the clock back to the 1950s.

Liberals, on the other hand, are sort of like a more honest breed of totalitarian communists. They want everything to be broken down in various sectors, owned by private monopolies (which they want to run). Unlike totalitarian commies, they don't try to hide that fact with propaganda. Unlike Conservatives, Euro-Libs usually want restrict personal liberties, such as freedom of expression & the right to privacy - and just like totalitarian commies, they employ propaganda to hide the fact that they want a big brother society.

I don't know which I loathe more.

Neither definition is accurate, at least not America.
That would be because certain groups of disingenuous political manipulators and liars didn't like their actual definitions, and thus changed them to suit their ends.

Lets not forget Emmenant Domain with the liberals!!
:headbang:
Let's not forget that EMINENT DOMAIN had already been established before this past years' ruling.
It was just upheld.
Like another poster said, you're just whining and lashing out at anyone within reach. You probably need a hug and someone to talk to you who ISN'T full of political BS. Time to turn off FauX, Limblob and O'Reilly. Oh yeah, and McClellan. C'mere, cuddles time. :fluffle:
*hands a little-used kerchief over*

Allow me to direct you to our wonderful college campuses where the socialist clubs have literal free reign over the campus. Try and bring any remotly conservative group or speaker onto the campus and they shall be booed and shouted off the campus. Oh, and lets not forget the banning of military recruiters on some "liberal/socialist" campuses.
Yes, an anecdote you've never actually experienced yourself. That, coupled with your serious misunderstanding of the eminent domain issue would pretty much qualify you as the "control-group poster" aspect for this thread. *nods*

Liberal: ...raise taxes for various reasons...

Conservative: ...lower taxes for various reasons...
You'll see that someone will have to raise the taxes eventually if you want this budget thing back under control. And the way US politics is currently going, that person will have to be Republican...which is great, because maybe that'll end that silly myth about Dems and taxes.

Oh, and just for the record: You can be both pro-2nd amendment and pro-gun control.

Unlike Conservatives, Euro-Libs usually want restrict personal liberties, such as freedom of expression & the right to privacy - and just like totalitarian commies, they employ propaganda to hide the fact that they want a big brother society.
?!?!

Care to give me an example of the sort of liberal party you're talking about?

In the European sense, Conservatives are usually people who want no further social developments of any kind, ever. A handfull wants to turn the clock back to the 1950s.

Liberals, on the other hand, are sort of like a more honest breed of totalitarian communists. They want everything to be broken down in various sectors, owned by private monopolies (which they want to run). Unlike totalitarian commies, they don't try to hide that fact with propaganda. Unlike Conservatives, Euro-Libs usually want restrict personal liberties, such as freedom of expression & the right to privacy - and just like totalitarian commies, they employ propaganda to hide the fact that they want a big brother society.

I don't know which I loathe more.
What drugs are you on? Remind me not to take them. The European libs just want freedom. In the social sense as much as possible. And in the economical sense as little intervention as possible.

?!?!

Care to give me an example of the sort of liberal party you're talking about?The various anti-terror laws being passed these days really do go unnoticed by everyone, it seems. I seriously didn't expect you, of all the NSGers, to question that little snippit. Oh well.

Britain would be a prime example, methinks.

What drugs are you on? Remind me not to take them. The European libs just want freedom. In the social sense as much as possible. And in the economical sense as little intervention as possible.No drugs, sadly. I just tend to watch what people do, instead of assuming they're perfectly truthful all the time.

Euro-Libs/Neo-Libs don't value anything but the freedom to consume. Any freedoms that can potentially threaten consumption seems to be up in the air.

EDIT: As little economic intervention as possible?! What planet do you live on?! Surely it can't be Earth.

-snip-
You're aware that "liberal" in Europe means something very different from the US, right?

European liberal parties are not on the left. It's actually quite the opposite most of the time. And as far as I know, the British LibDems weren't in favour of anti-terror laws at all.

Here's an example of a German liberal party, the FDP. Who also call themselves "Die Liberalen".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freie_Demokratische_Partei

And they fit in with this party in the EU-Parliament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Liberal_Democrat_and_Reform_Party

You're aware that "liberal" in Europe means something very different from the US, right?

European liberal parties are not on the left. It's actually quite the opposite most of the time. And as far as I know, the British LibDems weren't in favour of anti-terror laws at all.

Here's an example of a German liberal party, the FDP. Who also call themselves "Die Liberalen".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freie_Demokratische_Partei

And they fit in with this party in the EU-Parliament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Liberal_Democrat_and_Reform_PartyYups, I'm well aware (I'm European). And I stand by what I said.

Calling our libs anything but authoritarian monopoly lovers crashes quite nicely with reality. I'm off, but if you want, I'll merrily TG you a nice long list of examples later on. There's nothing 'libertarian' about them. They all want nothing but control & lots of it.

I'm off, but if you want, I'll merrily TG you a nice long list of examples later on.
Great. Thanks.