NationStates Jolt Archive

I don't know the answer to this question, and hey even if I did I don't want to die! But as a serious question if by general consensus, without violence or bloodshed you could chosse whether Islam exists or not. Would you keep it?

While I'd opt to get rid of all religions because I think they cause more trouble than they're worth, I think some of the religions lumped under the term "Islam" are much more barbaric and violent than most other religions and have no redeeming value. Other religions that are covered by the word "Islam" are fairly benign.

Keep it. The way we keep Grimms´ Tales.
(The same applies to Christianity and all other religions, imo.)

Let's stop looking at Islam as a monolithic entity. It has never been one and it will never be one.

"Islam this, Islam that" threads will go nowhere unless we can understand Islam in its parts (and as a whole).

Methinks, "yes".

I think it'd be easier if we just got rid of all the religions, or at least banned recruiting (which BTW for all you would-be recruiters, is quite possibly one of the most annoying things on Earth)

If the people who face East five times a day (or whatever) and follow the teaching of Muhammed end up in heaven, then it pays dividends for them.

But we can't know that... no way to quantify it.

Given the terrorist acts carried out in the name of Jihad against The Great Satan who buys their oil and puts food on their tables and gives them the popular vote.... in that sense, no.

Muslim scholars have done great service to the rest of the world throughout the ages... translating ancient texts, keeping libraries when there were none during the Dark/middle Ages in Europe, coming up with the numerical system that we use today. They taxed the cultures they conquered, but more or less reputedly allowed those cultures to remain. (sort of like Alexander did)


but today... what do they contribute, besides oil? A case study in the implementation of democratic republics? Aside from blowing people up indiscriminately... what are they contributing now? What counteracts all the negativity?

I mean we hear stories of good will from IRaq... people thanking the soldiers who've freed them from Saddam... stuff like that. Like any group of people, there are more good people than bad people, and we shouldn't condemn the good ones on account of the bad.

I feel the choices are too limited. I might have considered, "Not right now."

Yes it does and those terrorists who call themselves 'Muslim' aren't really Muslim, therefore, the religion of Islam isn't all that bad. Those who pervert it aren't true followers.

Yes it does and those terrorists who call themselves 'Muslim' aren't really Muslim, therefore, the religion of Islam isn't all that bad. Those who pervert it aren't true followers.
Then again, the followers of the extreme religions that use the name Islam would say that those not willing to lay their lives and property on the line for god in the jihad against the west aren't true Muslims. Who do you believe? Solution: They're different religions using the same name in order to confuse and anger me personally.

The same answer as usual... People who cling to petty beliefs and religion are WEAK. Come my brothers! Pick up your weapons, and fight in the name of humanity!

The same answer as usual... People who cling to petty beliefs and religion are WEAK. Come my brothers! Pick up your weapons, and fight in the name of humanity!

Actually it is people who believe in nothing, stand for nothing and fight for nothing are the one's that history has proven to be WEAK. If you have nothing at stake, and nothing to defend, you have nothing to force yourself to keep fighting for when the great equalizers (fatigue, hunger, thirst and pain), appear on the scene.
They will in fact over run you as if you didn't even exist, and continue to fight whatever their cause long after you have given up and turned to dust.

I don't know the answer to this question, and hey even if I did I don't want to die! But as a serious question if by general consensus, without violence or bloodshed you could chosse whether Islam exists or not. Would you keep it?
Like any religion, Islam can play both a positive or negative role. I would choose to keep it, simply because I don't feel that it is my right to deprive the people who follow Islam peacefully the right to practice their religion.

Personally, I would contend that as an insular, self-contained and introspective stae or union of states, it would be remarkably benign, if not an idyllic due to its factions and disparate sects, world, however it is signally unable to co-exist with either a secular, or christian, west.

Actually it is people who believe in nothing, stand for nothing and fight for nothing are the one's that history has proven to be WEAK. If you have nothing at stake, and nothing to defend, you have nothing to force yourself to keep fighting for when the great equalizers (fatigue, hunger, thirst and pain), appear on the scene.
They will in fact over run you as if you didn't even exist, and continue to fight whatever their cause long after you have given up and turned to dust.

There are things other than religion that one can believe in.

I don't know about the world, but it's done wonders for me.

I say keep it.

Despite the abscence of a "God" or anything similar; religion as a whole does pay a positive role in society. Of course one could disagree, but there will always be religious people and thus always religion That aside; I think the world would be better off without Islam (and Christianity and Judaism). I'm not saying these people should be exterminated or harmed in anyway (I think it is obvious to any rational person that the violent extremists are an extreme minority in what is mostly a peaceful people), but if I could somehow make the faith itself disappear I would.

Despite the abscence of a "God" or anything similar; religion as a whole does pay a positive role in society. Of course one could disagree, but there will always be religious people and thus always religion That aside; I think the world would be better off without Islam (and Christianity and Judaism). I'm not saying these people should be exterminated or harmed in anyway (I think it is obvious to any rational person that the violent extremists are an extreme minority in what is mostly a peaceful people), but if I could somehow make the faith itself disappear I would.
At the expense of the people who truly believe in it and practice their faith peacefully?

Like any religion, Islam can play both a positive or negative role. I would choose to keep it, simply because I don't feel that it is my right to deprive the people who follow Islam peacefully the right to practice their religion.
My view exactly.

At the expense of the people who truly believe in it and practice their faith peacefully?

The disappearance of the Muslim faith would only directly affect people who truly believe it; and the fact that some Muslims are not peaceful is only one aspect of the faith's problem (and not even a particularly significant one in my eyes since most attacks committed by or blamed on Islamists are generally motivated by politics more than religion). Islam is intolerant toward other faiths, repressive of women, adverse to modern science, is fatalistic, and puts too much (an extremely subjective analysis) emphasis on the afterworldly.

There are things other than religion that one can believe in.
I personally believe in grilled cheese sandwiches and anyone who speaks ill of them deserve slow painful death in the name of the faithful.

Well, it's a very general question, so I'll give a very general answer.

At the moment, no, I would not say it's role in the world is positive. However, it has had a positive role in the past and it can do so again. There just really needs to be a concerted effort from within the Islamic world to cut the cancer of fanaticism out of it. With the fanatics seemingly at the helm at the moment, though, that is no easy task and may not be possible at all. It may end up that we just have to wait until the fanatics burn themselves out.

Despite the abscence of a "God" or anything similar; religion as a whole does pay a positive role in society.

How so?

No, they have terrorists, but it isnt like much other religions are perfect to. Budists are cool. I wouldn't want any religion to go away or disapear or anything, even if the world was better without them.

No, they have terrorists, but it isnt like much other religions are perfect to. Budists are cool. I wouldn't want any religion to go away or disapear or anything, even if the world was better without them.


Those terrorists are no more muslim than the IRA are Catholic.

The disappearance of the Muslim faith would only directly affect people who truly believe it; and the fact that some Muslims are not peaceful is only one aspect of the faith's problem (and not even a particularly significant one in my eyes since most attacks committed by or blamed on Islamists are generally motivated by politics more than religion). Islam is intolerant toward other faiths, repressive of women, adverse to modern science, is fatalistic, and puts too much (an extremely subjective analysis) emphasis on the afterworldly.

Is that not where Christianity was 600 years ago?

Islam started later than Christianity, so it makes sense that it is a few hundred years behind it.

Islam is intolerant toward other faiths, repressive of women, adverse to modern science, is fatalistic, and puts too much (an extremely subjective analysis) emphasis on the afterworldly.

No it isn't, no it doesn't, no it isn't, no it isn't, and no it doesn't. Respect for other faiths is an essential part of Islam (To you be your Way and to me be mine - Qu'ran 109:6), women are to be treated equally ( Qu'ran says that men and women were "created of a single soul" and equal in the eyes of Allah 4:1, 39:6), as for science here's a nice linky (http://www.islamicity.com/science/), predetermination is viewed as part of Islam but we're supposed to be held accountable for our actions, and since all 5 pillars of Islam must be fulfilled in life and to take care of life, the afterworldly is merely an afterthought.

Don't take the actions of the Arabians and the Taliban as what Islam is all about. They got it wrong too.

Is that not where Christianity was 600 years ago?

Maybe, but it isn't where Islam is now. Some small factions, maybe, but not Islam itself.

Islam started later than Christianity, so it makes sense that it is a few hundred years behind it.

That's silly and completely unbaseable. Judaism is c.1500 years older than Christianity so can we say Christianity is where Judaism was in the 500s?

A religion is only as good as the people who follow it.

That's silly and completely unbaseable. Judaism is c.1500 years older than Christianity so can we say Christianity is where Judaism was in the 500s?

Christianity had certain advantages that accelerated it's progress.

Those terrorists are no more muslim than the IRA are Catholic.

But the Muslim terrorists say they do what they do in the name of Islam, whereas the IRA was fighting to get N.I. reunited with Ireland.

A religion is only as good as the people who follow it.

Agreed. I am a good person. Therefore, Islam is a good religion.

But the Muslim terrorists say they do what they do in the name of Islam

Since when do you listen to terrorists?

Islam makes a very good contribution to society like all religions do

Islam makes a very good contribution to society like all religions do
What contributions do religions make that can't be gotten elsewhere with less divisiveness and superstition?

What contributions do religions make that can't be gotten elsewhere with less divisiveness and superstition?

Pancake day, Easter eggs, mince pies, Christmas cake, Christmas pudding, birthdays...

MOST Islamic Charities are benign, so thats a contribution

What contributions do religions make that can't be gotten elsewhere with less divisiveness and superstition?

the contributions can be gotten elsewhere but this is still an option to get them that is present in every nation and open to every human regardless of what the state thinks

Pancake day, Easter eggs, mince pies, Christmas cake, Christmas pudding, birthdays...
Good point, but they are now available without the need for religion.

Islam has made the same level of contribution as every other religion in existence. It's given good people an excuse to do good and bad people an excuse to do bad.

So their bad people have done bad things recently. I point you to the Spanish Inquisition, also a case of the bad people in a religion doing awful things. The Crusades. List goes on and on. Radical Jihadists are, unquestionably, a shame to the other members of the Islamic faith.

Whether or not we beleive in Islam, or the power of religion to do good (and I beleive in neither), we should grow up and accept that Islam is no better or worse than any other faith in the world. Bad people will do bad things with religion as their excuse. Good people will do good things with religion as their excuse. In the long run, every religion is both neutral.

translating ancient texts, keeping libraries when there were none during the Dark/middle Ages in Europe,

Also burning them.

coming up with the numerical system that we use today.

Not the case. They copied that from someone else, too.

The Crusades.

...Were a reactionary movement against Islam's continuous assaults on Anatolia, Constantinople and eastern Europe.

...Were a reactionary movement against Islam's continuous assaults on Anatolia, Constantinople and eastern Europe.
Not to mention the attempt to conquer France in the 700s stopped by Charles Martel at Tours.

Good point, but they are now available without the need for religion.

True, but I like to keep religion around in the hope that it might produce more cool stuff.

...Were a reactionary movement against Islam's continuous assaults on Anatolia, Constantinople and eastern Europe.
The Crusades were brought on by the western Europeans trying to prove they were Christian after the great pissing contest that was the Investiture Controversy. They could care less about the Byzantines and other Eastern Europeans groups.

True, but I like to keep religion around in the hope that it might produce more cool stuff.
It's produced too much uncool stuff to justify it's existence in my opinion.

Since when do you listen to terrorists?

I dont, but these Muslim extremists honestly think that their interpretation of the Qu'ran is correct.

It's produced too much uncool stuff to justify it's existence in my opinion.

Even if that is true there's nothing you can do about it so: meh.

Even if that is true there's nothing you can do about it so: meh.
Sure there is. I can post on anti-religious threads on NS General.

I dont, but these Muslim extremists honestly think that their interpretation of the Qu'ran is correct.

Ofcourse they would think so. Have you heard of any idealogue who fights for his beliefs but does not honestly believe that he is correct?

Deligitimizing extremist preaching by mullahs should be a major part in any strategy against islamism.

Ofcourse they would think so. Have you heard of any idealogue who fights for his beliefs but does not honestly believe that he is correct?

Deligitimizing extremist preaching by mullahs should be a major part in any strategy against islamism.
Their preachings are illegitimate to any reasonable person in the first place. When you have people this radical, changing their pattern of thought is not an option. They are simply too far gone.

No, it doesn't, but it could. The basis of Islam is actually very peaceful, but it does allow room for defensive wars (Hit back when hit)

Sure there is. I can post on anti-religious threads on NS General.

You fiend! Will noone think of the children? :eek:

If it had been in past sense, I would have been inclined to agree.

However, in present-day, Most of Islam is hardly contributing to the well-being of many. It might not exactly be playing a negative role, but it's former positive role is pretty much gone.

How could you judge, that one religion is good, and another is bad?

Any religion is a general source of morality and kind intentions for millions of
people all around the world in a centuries!!! Islam, or Christian, or Judaism,
there is no difference between them at this point.

All of these terrorist acts is all about politics and political bloody games.
Terrorism is favourable to government at many points. No difference, in Russia or America, or any other country. It is just the way to fix or mask problems. And government pays a lot to keep it.

I'm saying - any terrorist act that was happend was a sharp srategic impact of interested government. And here is nothing about Islam or any other religion.

Believe it or not.

Dont be silly.

Dont be silly.

Did you say it for me? Please explain, what is silly?

How could you judge, that one religion is good, and another is bad?

Any religion is a general source of morality and kind intentions for millions of
people all around the world in a centuries!!! Islam, or Christian, or Judaism,
there is no difference between them at this point.

All of these terrorist acts is all about politics and political bloody games.
Terrorism is favourable to government at many points. No difference, in Russia or America, or any other country. It is just the way to fix or mask problems. And government pays a lot to keep it.

I'm saying - any terrorist act that was happend was a sharp srategic impact of interested government. And here is nothing about Islam or any other religion.

Believe it or not.

Sometimes politics and religion are the same thing. For example, Osama wants to unify the entire Muslim world under a single caliphate guided by his interpretation of Islam. A political goal, right? Well he wants to do so because his interpretation of Islam says that Islam must conquer the world and bring all people to that religion. Clearly a religious goal.

Sometimes politics and religion are the same thing. For example, Osama wants to unify the entire Muslim world under a single caliphate guided by his interpretation of Islam. A political goal, right? Well he wants to do so because his interpretation of Islam says that Islam must conquer the world and bring all people to that religion. Clearly a religious goal.

I could see just one from that - Osama wants Complete authority above the world for hisself. What is about religion here? If some Christian leader will say the same thing will it mean that christian religion is the world enemy?

I could see just one from that - Osama wants Complete authority above the world for hisself. What is about religion here? If some Christian leader will say the same thing will it mean that christian religion is the world enemy?
Maybe I wasn't clear. He's not just trying to get power for himself. His interpretation of Islam says that the world is destined to become completely Islamic. He's trying to bring about that day. His inspiration for attempting to unify Dar al Islam and from there to conquer Dar al Harb comes directly from his religion.

EDIT: Also there is no such thing as Christianity. It's Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, etc. all in their own related but distinct religions. Just like Islam. There's no such thing as Islam. There are numerous different interpretations of Islam that in essence are different religions. OBL's "Islam" thinks nothing of slaughtering civilians. Keruvalia's "Islam" is much more benign.

No it isn't, no it doesn't, no it isn't, no it isn't, and no it doesn't. Respect for other faiths is an essential part of Islam (To you be your Way and to me be mine - Qu'ran 109:6), women are to be treated equally ( Qu'ran says that men and women were "created of a single soul" and equal in the eyes of Allah 4:1, 39:6), as for science here's a nice linky (http://www.islamicity.com/science/), predetermination is viewed as part of Islam but we're supposed to be held accountable for our actions, and since all 5 pillars of Islam must be fulfilled in life and to take care of life, the afterworldly is merely an afterthought.

Don't take the actions of the Arabians and the Taliban as what Islam is all about. They got it wrong too.

Muslims (or at least most of them) believe (as is supported by the Qu'ran) that they alone will receive salvation. I counter your quote with this one: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection” (Koran 9:29).
Some of the repression of women in predominately Muslim nations likely stems from cultural elements outside of the religion (and thus the repression of women in Muslim nations is not the result of the actual faith). What I know of Islam does make it clear that the man is the head of the family and deserves more inheritance (to back up the latter point: “Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall they have the half” (Koran 4:11)). The more I read the more it seems that Islam (as it was "intended") is less repressive of women than Judaism and Christianity (as they were intended) but I have no love for those other faiths either and my other objections still stand.
The site on Islam and science was very interesting and it seems that the actual teachings of Islam promote science moreso than the other Abrahamic religions. Some of the assertions are a stretch (that statements regarding creation are actually talking about evolution); and suggestions that there is no way that people from 1400 years ago could have realized that all life originated from the water (even though the quote says "created from water") are false. People who have lived in the desert will certainly realize that water is the source of life; but that is a seperate tangent. The fact remains that most Muslims (though not necessarily Muslims in Europe and America) do not believe in evolution. But I suppose I need to lessen my objection on this point as well.
My problem with the belief that all things are determined by God's will is not related to people being held accountable (reality will hold them accountable regardless of what a religion says), but it makes people believe they have less control over their fate than they actually do and can potentially make them passive to their will of God rather than go out force their will on the world (which needs to be done to move the world forward).
The only one of the five pillars of Islam that is actually positively directed towards this world is the third (zakat); the rest, as far as I can tell, serve no useful purpose in this world and thus rely on the belief in another world to justify them (which is the source of my problem).
Ultimately, Islam (as the faith is written) does not seem to be as harmful as the other Abrahamic faiths (as they are written) but if the religion was lost I still have to wonder what of value would be lost with it that could not be obtained in a different (non-Abrahamic) religion.

EDIT: Also there is no such thing as Christianity. It's Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, etc. all in their own related but distinct religions. Just like Islam. There's no such thing as Islam. There are numerous different interpretations of Islam that in essence are different religions. OBL's "Islam" thinks nothing of slaughtering civilians. Keruvalia's "Islam" is much more benign.

That is just non-sensical. Following that reasoning there is no such thing as any religion nor such thing as Baptists or Catholics. There are internal divisions in all religions (some more than others, and there is more division in Christianity than Islam) but the similarities outweigh the differences.

That is just non-sensical. Following that reasoning there is no such thing as any religion nor such thing as Baptists or Catholics. There are internal divisions in all religions (some more than others, and there is more division in Christianity than Islam) but the similarities outweigh the differences.
No, it's not non-sensical. Can you really say that Muslims who think killing innocent civilians is OK are the same religion as Muslims who say that killing innocents is a horrible sin? That's a pretty big differeence. Same with Shia, Sunni, and Suffi. They all claim to be Muslim, but they don't often recognize each other as fellow Muslims. How about the Wahhabi/Salafiyya type Muslims, who think of non-believers as animals fit for conquest and slavery vs. the Muslim dude who runs my favorite Fried Chicken place? I don't think they see eye to eye on much.

They're different religions because they have big differences between them. It's not just a matter of tiny theological disputes.

Is that not where Christianity was 600 years ago?

Islam started later than Christianity, so it makes sense that it is a few hundred years behind it.

The time difference is meaningless; religions don't "evolve" at an equal rate down some common path. Following this logic Judaism and Hinduism should be thousands of years more "progressive" than Christianity and the new religious movements (such as Eckankar)-which in reality some of the most "progressive" of all faiths- would be as barbaric as Judaism was at the time of its origin. And I'm as opposed to Christianity and Judaism as I am to Islam (recently, slightly more so).

No, it's not non-sensical. Can you really say that Muslims who think killing innocent civilians is OK are the same religion as Muslims who say that killing innocents is a horrible sin? That's a pretty big differeence. Same with Shia, Sunni, and Suffi. They all claim to be Muslim, but they don't often recognize each other as fellow Muslims. How about the Wahhabi/Salafiyya type Muslims, who think of non-believers as animals fit for conquest and slavery vs. the Muslim dude who runs my favorite Fried Chicken place? I don't think they see eye to eye on much.

They're different religions because they have big differences between them. It's not just a matter of tiny theological disputes.

They are still the same religion; but just different sects of the same religion and different interpretations within the sects. If your reasoning is applied universally, the term "religion" will lose its meaning.

They are still the same religion; but just different sects of the same religion and different interpretations within the sects. If your reasoning is applied universally, the term "religion" will lose its meaning.
No, it would be defined more narrowly and accurately.

No, it would be defined more narrowly and accurately.

The narrowness and accuracy is what the term "sects" or "creeds" is for. Ther term "religion" is there to rightfully acknowledge the similarities and common origin of the creeds.

Maybe I wasn't clear. He's not just trying to get power for himself. His interpretation of Islam says that the world is destined to become completely Islamic. He's trying to bring about that day. His inspiration for attempting to unify Dar al Islam and from there to conquer Dar al Harb comes directly from his religion.

EDIT: Also there is no such thing as Christianity. It's Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, etc. all in their own related but distinct religions. Just like Islam. There's no such thing as Islam. There are numerous different interpretations of Islam that in essence are different religions. OBL's "Islam" thinks nothing of slaughtering civilians. Keruvalia's "Islam" is much more benign.


What i'm trying to say that terrorism is not depend from religion. And ideas of authority above the world in mind is not depend from religion. And we should stop trying to find the reasons of terrorism in Islam And we should stop trying to find a terrorist in any muslim-looking person. That is the problem our corrupted political system, which is the social problem, but not religious one.

The narrowness and accuracy is what the term "sects" or "creeds" is for. Ther term "religion" is there to rightfully acknowledge the similarities and common origin of the creeds.
That might apply to such things as Judaism, where an orthodox Jew and a reform Jew don't have major disagreements on what their god permits, but I don't see Salafyya Islam and Shi'ite Islam as being the same religion. Too many differences theologically. Ask a religious Saudi national if he regards a Shi'ite as a Muslim. You might be surprised to hear his opinion. They may be related, but IMO they're not the same religion. Southern Baptists aren't, after all, the same religion as Catholics and at least they still consider each other Christian (for the most part).

What i'm trying to say that terrorism is not depend from religion. And ideas of authority above the world in mind is not depend from religion. And we should stop trying to find the reasons of terrorism in Islam And we should stop trying to find a terrorist in any muslim-looking person. That is the problem our corrupted political system, which is the social problem, but not religious one.
And what I'm trying to say is that Bin Laden's terrorism stems directly from his form of Islam. It's at it's core religiously motivated and religiously justified. Also, the average Muslim doesn't subscribe to the same religious belief as Bin Laden.

That might apply to such things as Judaism, where an orthodox Jew and a reform Jew don't have major disagreements on what their god permits, but I don't see Salafyya Islam and Shi'ite Islam as being the same religion. Too many differences theologically. Ask a religious Saudi national if he regards a Shi'ite as a Muslim. You might be surprised to hear his opinion. They may be related, but IMO they're not the same religion. Southern Baptists aren't, after all, the same religion as Catholics and at least they still consider each other Christian (for the most part).

Southern Baptists are the same religion as Catholics; they are just different creeds. Orthodox Jews and reform jews do have have major differences in what their God permits, but again different creeds same religion.

Southern Baptists are the same religion as Catholics; they are just different creeds. Orthodox Jews and reform jews do have have major differences in what their God permits, but again different creeds same religion.
The difference between Southern Baptists and Catholics are pretty wide. Also ask either one what his religion is and he's unlikely to just say "Christian", but rather Baptist or Catholic.

And what I'm trying to say is that Bin Laden's terrorism stems directly from his form of Islam. It's at it's core religiously motivated and religiously justified. Also, the average Muslim doesn't subscribe to the same religious belief as Bin Laden.

Bin Laden? Here is nothin about religion at all. That is his work - to blow and to burn. He got money for that. And good money. Why do u think he did what hi did at the 11th of September?

The difference between Southern Baptists and Catholics are pretty wide. Also ask either one what his religion is and he's unlikely to just say "Christian", but rather Baptist or Catholic.

The differences are very wide, but that doesn't change the fact that they are both Christians and thus follow the same religion albeit different sects.

Bin Laden? Here is nothin about religion at all. That is his work - to blow and to burn. He got money for that. And good money. Why do u think he did what hi did at the 11th of September?
No, he was the ultra-wealthy heir to the biggest construction firm in the Muslim world. He doesn't need money. He's got plenty socked away. If money was his motivation, he'd be running his daddy's multi-billion dollar business.

He did what he did on 9/11 because he wants the US to consider supporting middle eastern regimes too costly in terms of money and lives lost to terrorism. Without US arms and aid he thinks that mujahadeen already in place in the Middle East, trained in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, Bosnia and Iraq, can then topple those governments and establish a unified Muslim Caliphate.

In 1998 Osama bin Laden issued a fatwa, a religious decree. It said that killing Americans-- "civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim…in any country." Osama's disciples have heard his words and obeyed.



" 'Humanist' belief…sees destroying the infidel countries as a tragedy…I would like to stress that annihilating the infidels is an inarguable fact…. The elements of the collapse of Western civilization are proliferating...In spite of all the characteristics of power at their command, these infidel states are no more than a handful of creatures on the speck of dust called Planet Earth....Allah told us of the certainty of the annihilation of the infidels...by means of the Muslim group, which would, in accordance with the Islamic commandment...torture them...The question now on the agenda is, how is the torture Allah wants done at our hands to be carried out?" Seif Al-Din Al-Ansari in Al Qaeda's online magazine Al-Ansar



"Allah will torture them, with your hands, he will torture them. He will deceive them and he will give you victory."
An unidentified Shaykh conversing with Osama bin Ladin in a tape given by al-Qaeda to - Al-Jazeera TV in mid-November, 2001
From HowardBloom.net

The differences are very wide, but that doesn't change the fact that they are both Christians and thus follow the same religion albeit different sects.
We're just not going to agree here. Agree to disagree?

We're just not going to agree here. Agree to disagree?

Sure, it is a meaningless argument.

Ultimately, Islam (as the faith is written) does not seem to be as harmful as the other Abrahamic faiths (as they are written) but if the religion was lost I still have to wonder what of value would be lost with it that could not be obtained in a different (non-Abrahamic) religion.

Wow! Very nicely done. I'm sure we could have a lively and entertaining discussion on this and nobody would get offended or riled up. :)

It's too early in my morning to tend to a proper answer, but I just wanted to say thank you for an insightful and intelligent response.

I will give this the attention it deserves after some coffee. :D

No religion plays a positive role.

Religion is a blatant form of controlling society by belief or punishment and rewards of the divine, designed to keep a wary populace to the whims of a 'cultural' elite. Now that we have the military and large police forces to keep that peace, religion is needed less. As for mine (Buddhism), I'd like to keep it, only because it's teachings actually make me feel better everyday.

I think Muslim is bad. I am a Christian. I know the Koran or whatever says that Muslims are supposed to like everyone, but my god isn't the one telling me to blow the crap out of people! And Don't say that's racist, because Muslim is not a race. I read in Time/ Newsweek the otherday that one of the muslims said We're all calling for the deaths of Christians and Jews! Hello! Jews and Christians make up 98% of this, the greatest country in the world, America. There is a problem. No wonder there isn't a mosque in the place that i have met eyes with!

I think Muslim is bad.

Which particular Muslim? :rolleyes:

I am a Christian. I know the Koran or whatever says that Muslims are supposed to like everyone, but my god isn't the one telling me to blow the crap out of people!

If the Koran says 'no killing' then presumably Allah doesn't tell them to blow the crap out of people.

And Don't say that's racist, because Muslim is not a race.

You're not a racist, just a bigot.

I read in Time/ Newsweek the otherday that one of the muslims said We're all calling for the deaths of Christians and Jews! Hello! Jews and Christians make up 98% of this, the greatest country in the world, America.

This is just nonsense.

There is a problem. No wonder there isn't a mosque in the place that i have met eyes with!

:confused:

I think Muslim is bad. I am a Christian. I know the Koran or whatever says that Muslims are supposed to like everyone, but my god isn't the one telling me to blow the crap out of people! And Don't say that's racist, because Muslim is not a race. I read in Time/ Newsweek the otherday that one of the muslims said We're all calling for the deaths of Christians and Jews! Hello! Jews and Christians make up 98% of this, the greatest country in the world, America. There is a problem. No wonder there isn't a mosque in the place that i have met eyes with!
Huh?

I'm starting to think the world would be better off if there was no religion at all. Think of all the wars and problems you'd be preventing.

I don't think any religion has made a positive impact on us for a while.

Nation of Quebec']I'm starting to think the world would be better off if there was no religion at all. Think of all the wars and problems you'd be preventing.

I don't think any religion has made a positive impact on us for a while.

*sighs*

And how do you intend to bring this state of affairs about?

Nation of Quebec']I'm starting to think the world would be better off if there was no religion at all. Think of all the wars and problems you'd be preventing.

I don't think any religion has made a positive impact on us for a while.

Really, so religious charity is to the detriment of the world....:rolleyes:

*sighs*

And how do you intend to bring this state of affairs about?

WAR!