NationStates Jolt Archive

Why doesn't a animal have a soul? (I guess I am aiming this at Christians).
Because they dont have intelligence?
Because the bible says so?
Because they dont love?
Why?

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?

Anyone?

The question implies that humans have souls. Besides the "soul" concept itself not being universally accepted (and I'm understimating the scale of the disagreement), people who talk of it have nothing in common, and do not reach the same conclusion.

That being said, I'd rather gather proof that a soul exists, rather than that it does not.

The Catholic Church (I don't know about other denominations) has a ruling on that. It has to do with the Genesis thing, where we human's own the planet because God told us to.

I personally don't think that. I think animals love, but its a different love. Animals have inteligence, that's apparent. Some people say its because they're not self aware (thus, why dogs bite and gnaw on their tails sometimes).

Fetuses have souls, and so do people with diseases. If your human, you have a soul. It doesn't matter what you are, or how you are, as God has a plan for you.

All in all, ask your local churches, and not the laymen on an internet forum.

Why doesn't a animal have a soul? (I guess I am aiming this at Christians).
Because they dont have intelligence?
Because the bible says so?
Because they dont love?
Why?

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?

Anyone?
The "soul" is a silly and boring concept. I certainly don't have one, and I am not interested in anyone or anything that does have one.

All in all, ask your local churches, and not the laymen on an internet forum.

Because churches are so much more reliable and unbiased towards particular interpretations ?

they dont have sole's because they dont wear shoes...:rolleyes:

Because churches are much more reliable and unbiased toewards particular interpretations.
They're the ones with the offical statments from congregations, and its the priests job to answer such questions. To deny oneself of such resources is foolish, because certain members of NS are just as unreliable and biased as they think the churches are.

The OP directed the question at Christians. So, I refeer them to churches. Makes sense to me.

I dont go to church. Im not really a Christian, nor an atheist. Maybe Agnostic, maybe nothing.


Because churches are much more reliable and unbiased toewards particular interpretations.

Irony, sarcasm? I often get them mixed up, at least when I read rather than hear what a person says.

Obviously this is aimed at people who believe in souls.

And what if a person is not self aware? Do they have a soul?

Animals do not have souls because animals do not have money.

By threatening you with "eternal damnation for your soul", the churches use fear to get your money and expand their power. Therefore, with no money to extort, animals do not matter to them.

What is a soul anyway?

What is a soul anyway?

i was told it was the bottom part of a shoe. some people spell it "sole"

What is a soul anyway?

God knows. Hm that sounds like some religious statement, but its me saying I dont know.

Maybe its something of a human that exists past death? Other than a rotting corpse?

i was told it was the bottom part of a shoe. some people spell it "sole"
No, that's a fish.

http://i1.tinypic.com/oh4lrb.jpg

I've known animals that had more personality and were more affectionate/caring than many people.

They have a "soul" as far as I'm concerned.

No, that's a fish.

http://i1.tinypic.com/oh4lrb.jpg

No wonder my shoes smell....

I absolutely believe animals have souls. Heck, my akhu shrine is filled with images of my dead pets and some of their favourite objects.

Then again, I think everything has a spirit of some kind, from humans to dogs to my bookcase.

i concurr with Argesia.

They're the ones with the offical statments from congregations, and its the priests job to answer such questions. To deny oneself of such resources is foolish, because certain members of NS are just as unreliable and biased as they think the churches are.

But at least there is a chance you will get some of the more eccentric views.
Though admittedly letting two Christians of different denominations debate the finer details of their religions generally already results in three vastly different opinions... so letting Buddhist, Islamic, Pagan, spiritualist etc opinions in may become too confusing.

Then again... who said lifes questions should all have easy answers ? Besides the ID movement that is.

I certainly don't have one

No? Sorry, I've always found that idea depressing. What do you see your personality as? Just electrical charges running across your brain? I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything, I'm just curious.

ps. to the OP, I think animals have souls, they seem as capable of emotion, life, and thought as humans, though on a more basic level.

No? Sorry, I've always found that idea depressing. What do you see your personality as? Just electrical charges running across your brain? I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything, I'm just curious.


That and certain chemical reactions.

That and certain chemical reactions.

Well I can definately see how that's the case for some things, your tastes in food, stuff like that, I could even believe that Love is just something which has been beaten into us by evolution, but I have trouble accepting that chemical reactions account for stuff like your sense of humour, or your taste in music, or your personality. They seem purely arbitary to me (though obviously personality is somewhat shaped by your upbringing, I think there is a certain part of "you" in there which can't be changed all that much)

No wonder my shoes smell....
:p hehe

But at least there is a chance you will get some of the more eccentric views.
Certainly, some very eccentric views. But then, they might feel like they've been fully enlightened, and then forget to ask the people who do it for a living. What else can you do in a monastary? Contemplate. I've read that Christianity believes that God is in everything, like brahmin (but I can't explain that well, I don't know much about Hinudism), but most people often just kind of leave that out. That would have to mean that since God initially created everything, there would certain be a little Him in everything. So, in my opinion, creatures have souls. Not eccentric. Bordering on heretical, yes.

The "soul" is a silly and boring concept. I certainly don't have one, and I am not interested in anyone or anything that does have one.


I agree, a soul is a human idea. We are animals don't forget so if animals don't have a soul then humans don't have a soul. Humans aren't any more special than any other animal in the world are we!

Why doesn't a animal have a soul? (I guess I am aiming this at Christians).
Because they dont have intelligence?
Because the bible says so?
Because they dont love?
Why?

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?

Anyone?

They do have souls, but they lack the rational part of the soul that's important.

Essentially, there are three parts of the soul, the vegitative, the appetative, and the rational component. Plants only have the first kind, animals have the first and second kind, but only humans have all three.

For your other questions: a fetus has a vegetative and an appetative part, but only has a rational part after quickening, which is why until about 1850 the Catholic Church thought that abortion was, at least in some instances, morally neutral. Stupid people are still capable of rationality, even if they aren't as well-suited for it as smart people, so they don't have a difference in soul so much as a difference in aptitude to use that soul. Murderers who love to kill have a soul, but they mistakenly think that what is vicious and immoral will lead to happiness. Their problem is a mistake in judgement, not a condition of the soul.

No, that's a fish.

http://i1.tinypic.com/oh4lrb.jpg


Is that sole a lemon sole, a dover sole or other?

I asked God this very question once on our poker night. He told me that they do and I believe him. :)

I've been playing poker with him for a while and I know when he's bluffing.

I think there is a certain part of "you" in there which can't be changed all that much

You'd be wrong in that. In certain cases people with brain damage had their entire personality changed. General attitude, fashion sense, taste in music, favorite food. All changed as a result of a bump on the head.

You'd be wrong in that. In certain cases people with brain damage had their entire personality changed. General attitude, fashion sense, taste in music, favorite food. All changed as a result of a bump on the head.
He said a "certain" part, not just things we can take note of. Possibly that "bumb on the head" brought out the real them? There is no way we can know.

I can see and feel a soul in many animals, especially my dogs whom I love more than most people.

Watching my younger dog somber around for two weeks after her mate passed away.

Howling with my older dog.

Cuddling with my dogs.

Playing chase in the back yard with my dogs.

When I feel like shit, they rest their head in my lap and look at me with compassionate eyes.

I love them because they love me, that or the pretend to, but I prefer the prior. No one can tell me that they do not possess some form of a human soul when they have shown more compassion to me than any human alive.

Dulce et decorum est pro cani mori.

Dulce et decorum est pro cani mori.
Translation, please!

Well I can definately see how that's the case for some things, your tastes in food, stuff like that, I could even believe that Love is just something which has been beaten into us by evolution, but I have trouble accepting that chemical reactions account for stuff like your sense of humour, or your taste in music, or your personality. They seem purely arbitary to me (though obviously personality is somewhat shaped by your upbringing, I think there is a certain part of "you" in there which can't be changed all that much)
Meh, do enough damage to a guy's brain and his whole personality, including sense of humor, taste in music, etc. will change. It's totally consistent with the brain as a computer running on electricity and chemical reactions. Totally inconsistent with a spiritual soul.

Is that sole a lemon sole, a dover sole or other?
I don't know. I just took the image from a google image search for sole.

Why doesn't a animal have a soul? (I guess I am aiming this at Christians).
Because they dont have intelligence?
Because the bible says so?
Because they dont love?
Why?

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?

Anyone?

I'm not sure there's any biblical mention of the state of animals' souls...

I know I have an eternal soul, so who's to say that animals don't as well?

Translation, please!

It's a spin off Horace's saying: "It is noble and of honor to die for the country"

Mine says: "It is noble and of honor to die for the dogs."

...because it's easier to say that the "soul cutoff" on the evolutionary ladder is right before humans than to say that it lies further down. Humans sit high on the pedastol just below god, according to creationists. It would wreck their ego trip to allow other species to come close to them.

If animals have souls, eventually, a line must be drawn to distinguish that which does not have a soul. I would imagine that very few people would argue that bacteria, fungi, plants, viruses, etc. have souls... so if some animals have souls, we must say, "Species A found the cheese at the end of the maze within 48 seconds, but species B took 1:08; therefore, species B has no soul."

What about AI? Robots already have knowledge and logic, but as they become more autonomous and humanlike, will they somehow aquire souls?

This is assuming that intelligence is indicative of a soul, but (as far as I can tell), that seems to be the general concensus. It's already been mentioned that animals experience emotion; they also have memory, capacity to learn, creativity... everything that might be associated with a soul is found in other species.

It's a spin off Horace's saying: "It is noble and of honor to die for the country"

Mine says: "It is noble and of honor to die for the dogs."
I thought it looked familiar. Good quote that, I feel the same way about dogs.

Why doesn't a animal have a soul? (I guess I am aiming this at Christians).
Because they dont have intelligence?
Because the bible says so?
Because they dont love?
Why?

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
this part >Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?< this part

Anyone?
Pffffft, of course animals have souls, any living thing has souls yo, but, the last part, no, they don't they lost it when they got it their heads to do that kinda crap.

Could we define a soul as the irrational and undefinable manifestation that governs divine worth?

Then you could argue that animals don't have souls based on a human's conception of divine worth. You could also use Plato's Tripartite Soul in that animals sufficiently lack reason to contain a fully developed soul.

Meh' I still see more love in animals than in humans, but one could argue that kissing a human's ass is meerly adaptation. In which I would say that wolves have great reason in recognizing the strongest creature and thus have a soul according to Plato.

No, that's a fish.

http://i1.tinypic.com/oh4lrb.jpg

That is the single most boring looking fish I have ever seen. :eek:

<snip!>

I would argue that bacteria, fungi, mould and viruses all have souls. I would also say that my computer has a soul, the CD-R in my CD drive at this moment has a soul, that my carpet has a soul and that all the pebbles in my drive way have souls.

Why doesn't a animal have a soul? (I guess I am aiming this at Christians).
Because they dont have intelligence?
Because the bible says so?
Because they dont love?
Why?

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?

Anyone?

I'm not a Christian (anymore), but there seems to be a little confusion.

There is no evidence for the existence of a soul. Assuming they exist, you can believe anything that you want has one. If you want to analyze the question as logically as possible, let's address your questions:

Because they dont have intelligence?

First, all animals have intelligence. That's what makes them animals. There are obviously intellects of a great range in the animal kingdom, that range from almost nil and entirely instinctual-based (insects, fish) to highly complex reasoning capabilities (primates, cats, dolphins). If you want to define a soul as that entity which is the essense of sentience, the kernel of awareness, the thinker behind the thought, then I don't see why any animal should not have a soul if humans do.

Because the bible says so?

The Bible says a lot of interesting things, many of which have value as a historical document.

The Bible also says a lot of stupid things. Again, souls don't really exist, but since we're trying to analyze the hypothetical logically, looking to the Bible probably isn't gonna be our best bet.

Because they dont love?

Animals with similar cerebral development to humans have the same basic emotions as humans. Higher animals certainly do love, perhaps not to the degree that we understand it, but they have their likes and dislikes nonetheless.

As you proceeed down the evolutionary scale, intelligence decreases, thought-processes dependent upon instinct increase, and the capacity to love, or feel any emotion, probably decreases as well. I wouldn't suspect an insect loves in any meaninful sense of the word.

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Since I mentioned defining the soul as a sentient being, a fetus would have a soul after the 30th week of gestation. As for the disease you mention making someone incapable of thought, I suspect that would be referred to as "brain death", in which case no sentient being exists, nor does our theoretical "soul".

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?

Using our sentience definition, I'm not sure you can quantize a soul. You either have one or you don't. Or perhaps you could quantize it based on awareness.

If you want to use some sort of religious definition for "soul", then there really isn't any definite answer to those questions, since the very concept isn't based on logic and can be defined as any way you choose to imagine it.

That and certain chemical reactions.

Question: if our minds/personalities are purely the result of chemical reactions and electrical impulses, just like our sense of taste, hearing, etc.,
then how can there be any deep meaning to the words "I love you," any more than deep meaning to the words "this fish is salty" or "this pie tastes good"?

How can rational thought have a non-rational cause? Is it then proper to say that there is no such thing as rational thought?

And then, how can anyone conceive of abstractions? Such as "I ought" rather than "I did" or "I will"???

:( :confused:

Question: if our minds/personalities are purely the result of chemical reactions and electrical impulses, just like our sense of taste, hearing, etc.,
then how can there be any deep meaning to the words "I love you," any more than deep meaning to the words "this fish is salty" or "this pie tastes good"?


I've never been in love, so am unaware of any deep meaning behind saying "I love you". To me, that's just a statement, exactly they same as "this fish is salty"


How can rational thought have a non-rational cause? Is it then proper to say that there is no such thing as rational thought?

Why is it that a rational thing cannot have a rational cause? you're going to have to clarify your argument on this.


And then, how can anyone conceive of abstractions? Such as "I ought" rather than "I did" or "I will"?

That's evolution, baby. The ability to examine our memories and experiences and learn from them is a very handy survival trait.

That is the single most boring looking fish I have ever seen. :eek:
Aww... I thought it was cute...

As to the subject of souls, everything has at least one. Why doesn't a block of carbon simply behave like a bunch of static quarks and electrons? The soul is that degree of interaction between the compound parts of the body that define the behaviour of the total as greater than the sum of the parts.

Isn't the idea of a soul supposed to be what separates humans from all other life on earth?

What about the person born without a brain? I have seen this on discovery or somewhere that there are birth defects were the child doesn't have a higher brain. sometimes no really brain at all, only the stem.
Does anyone think they have a soal also?

What about the person born without a brain? I have seen this on discovery or somewhere that there are birth defects were the child doesn't have a higher brain. sometimes no really brain at all, only the stem.
Does anyone think they have a soal also?

A soul isn't something you can scientificly determain. It's an intangible manifestation of all the qualities that make humans "superior" to animals: compassion, generosity, sacrifice, etc. Almost a divine worth.

If they do they taste considerably better when more expensive....;)

then how can there be any deep meaning to the words "I love you," any more than deep meaning to the words "this fish is salty" or "this pie tastes good"?

There is no inherent deep meaning to those words or any others. The meaning comes solely from our brains interpertation of those words based on precious experience and expectations.

How can rational thought have a non-rational cause? Is it then proper to say that there is no such thing as rational thought?

"Rational" is a subjective concept based on human thought (those electro/chemical impulses in our brains). There is no objective standard for what is "rational." Something is only rational because we say so.

If you're Christian, you may or may not believe animals have souls. It's not really something I've ever heard argued in any church I've attended.

My own view is somewhat Asian (or possibly Heinleinian - See Stranger in a Strange Land) - if it lives, it has a soul. Plants live, therefore they have souls. Animals live, therefore they have souls.

This does not stop me, however, from eating.

Why doesn't a animal have a soul? (I guess I am aiming this at Christians).
Because they dont have intelligence?
Because the bible says so?
Because they dont love?
Why?

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?

Anyone?

Animals do have 'a soul'.

It's VERY clear, if you read the scripture in the Hebrew.

Sorta related question I always wanted to ask, but which isn't worth its own thread:

In Hinduism and Buddhism, and other religions which feature reincarnation, is there a limited amount of souls around? Would eventually everyone but one person be released? Or do new souls enter the cycle, and if yes, from where?

Why doesn't a animal have a soul? (I guess I am aiming this at Christians).
Because they dont have intelligence?
Because the bible says so?
Because they dont love?
Why?

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?

Anyone?

I am not a Christian and I do not believe in souls; but I can give some reasons why Christians don't believe animals have souls. There are of course many who believe that animals don't have souls simply because the bible says so. People who attempt to rationalize it generally believe that it is because of lack of intelligence; generally basing it off of the fact that animals don't have "minds" and "minds" are distinct from the body and are another term for soul (thus no mind no soul). This is the most commonly accepted Cartesian explaination. With this perspective stupid people have as much of a soul as smart people since it isn't intelligence that matters but the presence of a "mind." Fetuses, despite their lack of a "mind", do have a soul from the beginning since it is now commonly assumed that the soul is created (or enters the body) at conception; there is no real reason to believe this. For hundreds of years the Catholics (following a variation of a belief of Aristotle) believed that the soul entered the body a few months into the pregnancy. I'm not sure on the issue of someone born unable to think; a Christian would likely believe that the individual would have a soul but be unable to give any reasonable argument as to why. Sin has nothing to do with having a soul (if the murderer didn't have a soul he wouldn't be able to be punished).

No? Sorry, I've always found that idea depressing. What do you see your personality as? Just electrical charges running across your brain? I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything, I'm just curious.

ps. to the OP, I think animals have souls, they seem as capable of emotion, life, and thought as humans, though on a more basic level.

I'll respond. I believe that the personality, thought, and emotion are entirely caused by chemical reactions and electrical impulses in the brain. I see no reason why this is depressive (apart from the lack of an afterlife but that doesn't seem to be what bothers you about this belief). There is too much evidence for a materialistic basis of conciousness for there to be any rational reason to believe otherwise, though there is no reason why a person can't believe in a soul for a different reason.

get a pet if you think animals dont have souls

I've read that Christianity believes that God is in everything, like brahmin (but I can't explain that well, I don't know much about Hinudism), but most people often just kind of leave that out.

You've read wrong. The belief in a supreme God that is distinct and seperate from his creation (which is everything except God) has always been a fundemntal aspect of the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism).

doesnt everyone know that we(humans) are primates?

They do have souls, but they lack the rational part of the soul that's important.

Essentially, there are three parts of the soul, the vegitative, the appetative, and the rational component. Plants only have the first kind, animals have the first and second kind, but only humans have all three.

For your other questions: a fetus has a vegetative and an appetative part, but only has a rational part after quickening, which is why until about 1850 the Catholic Church thought that abortion was, at least in some instances, morally neutral. Stupid people are still capable of rationality, even if they aren't as well-suited for it as smart people, so they don't have a difference in soul so much as a difference in aptitude to use that soul. Murderers who love to kill have a soul, but they mistakenly think that what is vicious and immoral will lead to happiness. Their problem is a mistake in judgement, not a condition of the soul.

I'm curious, do you actually believe this? Or are you just giving the traditional Scholastic/Aristotelian explaination?

There are of course many who believe that animals don't have souls simply because the bible says so.

Where does the Bible say that?

Question: if our minds/personalities are purely the result of chemical reactions and electrical impulses, just like our sense of taste, hearing, etc.,
then how can there be any deep meaning to the words "I love you," any more than deep meaning to the words "this fish is salty" or "this pie tastes good"?

How can rational thought have a non-rational cause? Is it then proper to say that there is no such thing as rational thought?

And then, how can anyone conceive of abstractions? Such as "I ought" rather than "I did" or "I will"???

:( :confused:

Saying "I love you" would have more significance than saying "this fish is salty" since have more emotional (stems from neurotransmitters) connection to the object of the former than latter. You would recognize "I love you" as more significant and so would everyone else; there is no reason to appeal to a soul.
There is no reason why rational thought cannot have a "non-rational" cause. Emotions have a "non-emotional" cause. Since rational thought is still rational there is no reason to call it anything different.
A physical basis to thought and reason would in no way indicate affect or mean anything in regards to abstract thought.

Sorta related question I always wanted to ask, but which isn't worth its own thread:

In Hinduism and Buddhism, and other religions which feature reincarnation, is there a limited amount of souls around? Would eventually everyone but one person be released? Or do new souls enter the cycle, and if yes, from where?

I don't know the "official" answer, but I have heard a theory or two on this. Some believe that time is cyclical, no end, no begining, just repeating in a loop over and over. As such it is a closed system with only so many "souls." As a result, reincarnation isn't liniar. You could be reincarnated into the future, past, or present. And at any one point in time you could be inhabiting several physical bodies.

I've also heard that there is a "universal conciousness." And there are bits of it continuously breaking off of it and getting "lost." These "new souls" then have to go through an extensive relearning process through many lifetimes and life forms before they can rejoin the whole again. This provides a never ending suply of souls.

Personally I'm an athiest and doubt any of this, but I have always found the idea of reincarnation interesting. But like any religious belief, the more you think about it, the more problems you encounter.

I actually asked this same question on my Catholic forum when Sara died. This is the response I got.

"Animals have a material soul that ceases to exist when they die. Humans have a spiritual soul that continues to exist after death. But does this mean that animals will not be present in the afterlife? That is a question to which we do not have an answer...

It might be possible that God might also re-create those animals who have been a pleasure and comfort to man in his earthly journey. We don't know in this life, but it is something for which we can hope.

Explain to your children that heaven will have all that is needed for our perfect happiness. If they need their pet with them in heaven in order to be perfectly happy, their pet will be there. As adults we realize that God alone suffices for perfect happiness; but we also know that God, in his great love for us, gives us more than our mere necessities and that his love is reflected to us in his creation. It may be that our animal friends' presence in the next life will be God's gift to us."

I actually asked this same question on my Catholic forum when Sara died. This is the response I got.

"Animals have a material soul that ceases to exist when they die. Humans have a spiritual soul that continues to exist after death. But does this mean that animals will not be present in the afterlife? That is a question to which we do not have an answer...

It might be possible that God might also re-create those animals who have been a pleasure and comfort to man in his earthly journey. We don't know in this life, but it is something for which we can hope.

Explain to your children that heaven will have all that is needed for our perfect happiness. If they need their pet with them in heaven in order to be perfectly happy, their pet will be there. As adults we realize that God alone suffices for perfect happiness; but we also know that God, in his great love for us, gives us more than our mere necessities and that his love is reflected to us in his creation. It may be that our animal friends' presence in the next life will be God's gift to us."

It's all very nice, and all.... but it isn't scriptural.

Both the Hebrew and Greek state clearly that the 'soul' is something present in both 'man' and the other 'animals'.

Both the Hebrew and Greek also allow that the 'soul' is something that is NOT immortal.

If your church teaches you otherwise, it is perverting the scripture.

It's all very nice, and all.... but it isn't scriptural.

Both the Hebrew and Greek state clearly that the 'soul' is something present in both 'man' and the other 'animals'.

Both the Hebrew and Greek also allow that the 'soul' is something that is NOT immortal.

If your church teaches you otherwise, it is perverting the scripture.

Eh, what can I say, I asked, this is the answear I get.

How can anyone really claim to understand the soul? It would be like so many priests claiming to understand a god, that supposedly created the world and all on it in 6 days. How do we even know we HAVE a soul if we cannot fully understand what it is? To put it simply(and a little crudely), it's like a child not understanding what the genetilia are for. They learn as they get older, but until then, they can only guess. Let's pick this topic up again in about a hundred years or so...

Why doesn't a animal have a soul? (I guess I am aiming this at Christians).
Because they dont have intelligence?
Because the bible says so?
Because they dont love?
Why?

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?

Anyone?
Animals do have souls.

Leviticus 24:18 (both man and beast is called 'nefesh' in the original, and 'nefesh' is the hebrew word that is translated 'soul')

Animals do have souls.

Leviticus 24:18 (both man and beast is called 'nefesh' in the original, and 'nefesh' is the hebrew word that is translated 'soul')

For those who don't know, this is what Leviticus 24:18 says.

18 Whoever kills an animal shall make it good, animal for animal.
19 ‘If a man causes disfigurement of his neighbor, as he has done, so shall it be done to him— 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has caused disfigurement of a man, so shall it be done to him. 21 And whoever kills an animal shall restore it; but whoever kills a man shall be put to death. 22 You shall have the same law for the stranger and for one from your own country; for I am the LORD your God.’”

Question: if our minds/personalities are purely the result of chemical reactions and electrical impulses, just like our sense of taste, hearing, etc.,
then how can there be any deep meaning to the words "I love you," any more than deep meaning to the words "this fish is salty" or "this pie tastes good"?

By the complexity of the chemical reactions and electrical impulses involved aswell as by how they actually impact you.
Does it really matter where the feelings originate ? To draw a parallel: One can have a fancy sportscar and a pile of scrap containing the same materials. Following your reasoning one should not be more special than the other - but obviously the components alone are not the whole story.

How can rational thought have a non-rational cause?
Why could it not ? But in truth our brains really are not optimally suited for rational thought - which is a great argument against those who claim design.

No one who truly understands the canine, wonders if they have a soul.

Eh, what can I say, I asked, this is the answear I get.

Which is fine... but irrelevent. If you read the scripture in the original tongues, it is painfully clear that animals and men have souls, and that those 'souls' are a transient aspect of the living creature... not something that lives on in eternity.

I guess you have to make a choice: you can either believe this newage claptrap about 'eternal souls' and how they 'only exist in man'.... or you can actually believe the Word of the scripture... which means rejecting the heretical bullshit you are being sold.

All in all, ask your local churches, and not the laymen on an internet forum.
Not all in all. Churches very clearly don't have answers that jibe with facts with 100% consistency. Furthermore, even THEY are shaky on the idea of the "soul" idea.
If you're expecting an answer as a "fact" of what a "soul" IS, you don't go to a group of people who gloss over the more nonsensical and contradictory parts of their own source material as the answer.
If you're looking for a figurative answer of what a "fact" is supposed to be and you don't mind being given several examples of other things that may or may not help qualify it, THAT is where you would seek the counsel of the clergy.

I'm seeing an assumption here that only the Bible can answer this question. That Christians/Jews/Moslems have the only answer. Remember that all of these religions, at one time or another (particularly Christianity) questioned whether women had souls.

There are religions and spiritualities all over the world that state unequivocally that all living things (plants, animals, viruses, bacteria, etc.)have souls. There are some that argue that Earth (Gaia) has a soul.

they dont have sole's because they dont wear shoes...:rolleyes:
LOL

I agree, a soul is a human idea. We are animals don't forget so if animals don't have a soul then humans don't have a soul. Humans aren't any more special than any other animal in the world are we!
Well, sure we are. We're the ones with an idea of "soul".

LOL

i was hoping someone would find that funny... :D

Well, sure we are. We're the ones with an idea of "soul".

but we are the ones with the highly evolved brain that allows us to have that idea...

People have the idea of a soul because they have this need to catagorize everything. That's what makes them sentinent, the ability to catagorize information. Our soul or Ka is just a word to catagorize who we are inside, why our personalities are the way they are. Back to the original question, the reason that some people like to belive that animals don't have any sort of soul or Ka is because they want to feel bigger and more important by towering over those who are weak and unable to contradict them. For some people, it would destroy their self esteem to have to believe that at a theological level, they are equal, or worse than the dog that they feed every day. People always need to feel supiror, I'm sure that before blacks were accepted into society as actual people instead of slave monkies people said they didn't have a soul. People who couldn't accept the change from supirior to equal joined up with stupid organizations like the KKK. Well, that's my tirade, feel free to hit me with hate mail or whatever.

I refuse to discuss the existence of souls or not... it's silly. Neither side can prove it, so the point is moot, and distracting from the man's actual question.

In the Bible, God says "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I called you by name." That kinda obviously speaks of the "foetus" as a human being, already known by God. Already created, if not grown physically. That same being that was in existence before the physical body is also the one that lasts after the body dies. God never says this of animals.

Also, man was "made in the image of God". Which it goes on to say means that he "knows good and evil". I don't think animals know good and evil, really.

As to "scripture proof" that connects those two thoughts, I can't think off the top of my head of any, but that doesn't mean there isn't any. I think for some reason, that "image of God" thing is also talking about a soul.

In the Bible, God says "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I called you by name." That kinda obviously speaks of the "foetus" as a human being, already known by God. Already created, if not grown physically. That same being that was in existence before the physical body is also the one that lasts after the body dies. God never says this of animals.
Of course it didn't. Note the first person relationship of your text. Unless there's a POV OF an animal (which the bible is notably biased against), you're not making any sense here.

Also, man was "made in the image of God". Which it goes on to say means that he "knows good and evil".
That's a stretch. Those two are different things.

IIn the Bible, God says "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I called you by name." That kinda obviously speaks of the "foetus" as a human being, already known by God.

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you. Before you came forth out of the womb, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

it doesnt mean what you just said. it means that god had destined Jeremiah to be a prophet.

In Hinduism and Buddhism, and other religions which feature reincarnation, is there a limited amount of souls around? Would eventually everyone but one person be released? Or do new souls enter the cycle, and if yes, from where?

lol....no...there is no limit on souls (or Universes where the souls indulge in material manifestation) as per mainstream hindu philosophies (Vaishnavism, Advaita, Shaivism).

There is no "eventual" in this because there is no concept of time in the spiritual world. Oh and liberation is not necessarily final in all cases. Partially liberated sould may go to heaven-like state of mind but after expending the good karma, they may fall back to the material world and the cycle will continue.

-snip-
Fair enough. Thanks. :)

In the Bible, God says "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I called you by name." That kinda obviously speaks of the "foetus" as a human being, already known by God. Already created, if not grown physically. That same being that was in existence before the physical body is also the one that lasts after the body dies. God never says this of animals.


You need to read the scripture in the native tongues, friend. The words that describe the 'soul' of man (nephesh, in the Hebrew; Psuche in the Greek), are the exact same terms used in relation to animals. Although, if you do a word for word comparison, MOST of the incidences of 'nephesh' are just not translated T ALL in our modern English translations.

I really wish people would read 'behind' the English 'version' of scripture, before they decide what it means.


Also, man was "made in the image of God". Which it goes on to say means that he "knows good and evil". I don't think animals know good and evil, really.


Have you actually read the Bible? Man 'mae in the image of God' is an entirely different 'story' to the 'knowledge of good and evil'. Same book, yes... but not the same 'event'.

but we are the ones with the highly evolved brain that allows us to have that idea...

On earth maybe; though who knows what other monkeys think ?
But what if those highly developed aliens actually do exist... would they have souls ?

but we are the ones with the highly evolved brain that allows us to have that idea...
...and that makes us special.

The Catholic Church (I don't know about other denominations) has a ruling on that. It has to do with the Genesis thing, where we human's own the planet because God told us to.

I personally don't think that. I think animals love, but its a different love. Animals have inteligence, that's apparent. Some people say its because they're not self aware (thus, why dogs bite and gnaw on their tails sometimes).

Fetuses have souls, and so do people with diseases. If your human, you have a soul. It doesn't matter what you are, or how you are, as God has a plan for you.

All in all, ask your local churches, and not the laymen on an internet forum.

dogs do that when they have an itch, they not really biting themselves. otherwise that would suggest that they feel nothing and have no sence of self preservation.

Interesting topic, this could last forever and people would just be debating they're opinions. One thing that i can never understand is that non christans attack a christians faith and christians usually forget to value a non christians opinions.

A soul is your mind, will and emotions.

Animals have a mind, they have a will and they have emotions and so do humans. So i believe in saying you have no soul is stupid, even a stupid TV show like the Simpsons had Bart thinking he had a soul. People usually say they don't have a soul because they consider themselves to be cold and heartless. You have a soul whether you want to accept it or not. But thats my opinion and sure enough someone gonna reply saying what i just said is a crop of shit and you know... i don't mind. Cause i ain't a bible bashing, my way is the right way christian.

animals have souls, I beleive, anyway... I mean if we are supposed to be happy in heaven, I will not be as happy as I could be with animals in heaven, and to get into heaven, you need a soul.

animals have souls, I beleive, anyway... I mean if we are supposed to be happy in heaven, I will not be as happy as I could be without animals in heaven, and to get into heaven, you need a soul.

"Few religions are definite about the size of Heaven, but on the planet Earth the Book of Revelation (ch. XXI, v.16) gives it as a cube 12,000 furlongs on a side. This is somewhat less than 500,000,000,000,000,000,000 cubic feet. Even allowing that the Heavenly Host and other essential services take up at least two thirds of this space, this leaves about one million cubic feet of space for each human occupant ... This is such a generous amount of space that it suggests that room has also been provided for some alien races or -- a happy thought -- that pets are allowed.
-- Terry Pratchett

I actually asked this same question on my Catholic forum when Sara died. This is the response I got.

"Animals have a material soul that ceases to exist when they die. Humans have a spiritual soul that continues to exist after death. But does this mean that animals will not be present in the afterlife? That is a question to which we do not have an answer...

It might be possible that God might also re-create those animals who have been a pleasure and comfort to man in his earthly journey. We don't know in this life, but it is something for which we can hope.

Explain to your children that heaven will have all that is needed for our perfect happiness. If they need their pet with them in heaven in order to be perfectly happy, their pet will be there. As adults we realize that God alone suffices for perfect happiness; but we also know that God, in his great love for us, gives us more than our mere necessities and that his love is reflected to us in his creation. It may be that our animal friends' presence in the next life will be God's gift to us."
Amen to that.:D

they dont have sole's because they dont wear shoes...:rolleyes:

Horses wear shoes....:p

...and that makes us special.

and cheetahs have evolved the perfect body to run 70 mph; and that makes them special...

Horses wear shoes....:p

hey hey hey, lets not get all technical...:p

Why doesn't a animal have a soul? (I guess I am aiming this at Christians).
Because they dont have intelligence?
Because the bible says so?
Because they dont love?
Why?

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?

Anyone?

of course animals have souls. all living beings do. just because they do not understand the principle of the religion or have highly evolved brains it does not mean they are soulless creatures. they do understand feelings and that gives them the ability to survive and protect their families or, in less evolved cases, to ensoure survival of their species.

I don't really beleave in such a thing as a soul, but IF there were souls, why wouldn't animals have one? Without a soul you can't get into heavon(I think), so all animals are doomed to hell then? I don't think so, that's just harsh.

I don't really beleave in such a thing as a soul, but IF there were souls, why wouldn't animals have one? Without a soul you can't get into heavon(I think), so all animals are doomed to hell then? I don't think so, that's just harsh.

maybe god is harsh...

maybe god is harsh...

Bummer dude.

lol. Souls. Souls imply free will.
*rofls*
:D

and cheetahs have evolved the perfect body to run 70 mph; and that makes them special...
Emus can run faster.

The topic is a soul, not a body. Spiritually speaking, we are special in that regard.

Emus can run faster.

The topic is a soul, not a body. Spiritually speaking, we are special in that regard.

Based on what? The fact that it gives some people the warm-fuzzies?

Emus can run faster.

The topic is a soul, not a body. Spiritually speaking, we are special in that regard.

we have highly evolved brians, cheetahs have highly evolved bodies. i think the point is justified. both creatures are special in thier own way...

i dont think humans are more special just because we are on the extreme end of evoution...

we have highly evolved brians, cheetahs have highly evolved bodies. i think the point is justified. both creatures are special in thier own way...

i dont think humans are more special just because we are on the extreme end of evoution...

I don't necessarily believe we are "on the extreme end of evoution". I can think of a lot of ways we could be 'better adapted' to our environments. We are hardly 'extreme'... indeed, our biggest survival trait is that we are unfeasibly 'mediocre'.

I don't necessarily believe we are "on the extreme end of evoution". I can think of a lot of ways we could be 'better adapted' to our environments. We are hardly 'extreme'... indeed, our biggest survival trait is that we are unfeasibly 'mediocre'.

you dont think our brains are on the extreme end of evolution?

you dont think our brains are on the extreme end of evolution?

How much of our brains do we even use? Our brains don't seem that spectacular, to be honest... and we have so little idea about the potential of other creatures brains... I mean, we know that octopi can differentiate patterns, but, does that mean we could teach them to read or books, if we knew how to teach them?

I think the whole idea of 'ends' of evolution is a red herring. There can be no 'ends'... because changing circumstances make different attributes important.

Based on what? The fact that it gives some people the warm-fuzzies?
No; based on the idea that we have one.

we have highly evolved brians, cheetahs have highly evolved bodies. i think the point is justified. both creatures are special in thier own way...

i dont think humans are more special just because we are on the extreme end of evoution...
But we were not talking about just "more special," we were talking about humans being "more special than any other animal in the world" because we have the idea of a soul.

At least, I was (in reference to the post I replied to).

No; based on the idea that we have one.

Who says?

Hell, we, as humans, can't even agree what a 'soul' IS... how can we know if we 'have' one?

So - what it comes down to is... your particular belief is that we have a thing you call a 'soul', which you think is somehow unique to humans, it seems.

To me, that's a 'warm fuzzies' argument. It isn't based on anything observable, or even logical... and I don't quite see what 'evidence' persuades you that we have something (this 'soul' thing) that IS unique.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what YOU mean by 'soul'?

By Judeo-Christian standards, based on what is in the SCRIPTURES, rather than the propoganda, we have no different 'soul' to animals.

So... what do you mean by 'soul' that is unique? And how do you KNOW it is unique?

Who says?

Hell, we, as humans, can't even agree what a 'soul' IS... how can we know if we 'have' one?

So - what it comes down to is... your particular belief is that we have a thing you call a 'soul', which you think is somehow unique to humans, it seems.

To me, that's a 'warm fuzzies' argument. It isn't based on anything observable, or even logical... and I don't quite see what 'evidence' persuades you that we have something (this 'soul' thing) that IS unique.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what YOU mean by 'soul'?

By Judeo-Christian standards, based on what is in the SCRIPTURES, rather than the propoganda, we have no different 'soul' to animals.

So... what do you mean by 'soul' that is unique? And how do you KNOW it is unique?
Not saying we have a soul.

Saying we have the idea of a soul.

All in all, ask your local churches, and not the laymen on an internet forum.

The local church might help if a person is having an identity crisis, feels lost, or somesuch - but if a person is interested in the views of other people, (which is what I gathered from the OP) asking random people off of the internet is as good as any.

For that matter, asking random people off of the internet might get a more diverse view of people's beliefs. I know here in Hippytown, I'd have to hunt far and wide for a true conservative viewpoint; here someone yells [b]ABORTION!!![b] and the right wing falls out of the walls...

Not saying we have a soul.

Saying we have the idea of a soul.

And? What is this 'idea' of a soul...? Again... opinions disagree.

I do not have any concrete idea of a soul... indeed, most of the ideas of a 'soul' that I can identify, are not about anything peculiar to humans...

And... how do we know that we are the only entity WITH these 'ideas' of 'souls'? Sounds like you are making assumptions that cannot be supported...

And... how do we know that we are the only entity WITH these 'ideas' of 'souls'?

interesting idea Grave...

i would think that without language and some sort of understanding of a greater picture of the world, would give me reason to believe that other entities, (animals), would not have the capacity to have that kind of idea...

we understand history, rituals, culture and myth for instance. religious ideas spring from these things. i would think that an idea of "soul" would be something only humans would have...

interesting idea Grave...

i would think that without language and some sort of understanding of a greater picture of the world, would give me reason to believe that other entities, (animals), would not have the capacity to have that kind of idea...

we understand history, rituals, culture and myth for instance. religious ideas spring from these things. i would think that an idea of "soul" would be something only humans would have...

But, again... who says that animals (collectively) have a lack of those things... or that THOSE things are the things necessary to have experience of the spiritual?

Do animals lack language? Cuttlefish communicate in extremely complex patterns, and octopi have the capacity to distinguish shapes, and identify patterns.

Why do we assume they have no 'greater picture of the world'? I think of a termite colony, and I see a collective that operates on a deeper level than any human atte,pt has come close to managing... we cannot even comprehend what the 'colony' knows. So, why do we assume that THAT understanding is inferior to our own?

How do we know that animals do not have 'history'? They certainly learn... and they display traits that we would associate with education. When my cat raised kittens, there were certain features of my house that she 'mentored' the kittens to avoid. A house is not a natural environment, so it's not some animal instinct of evolution... she actually 'taught' them. And... if animals can 'teach' something, how can we dislude what MIGHT be taught... just because WE don't know what it is?

Animals do have rituals... since rituals are just repeated behaviours. Animals have cultures, that differ within groups. It is observable in primate behaviour.

What it comes down to then.. is that we don't KNOW that animals can conceive of spirituality. And, if they can, we don't know if they can do it LIKE WE DO. But, does that mean they CAN'T?

Is it not, for example, entirely possible that, if there IS such a thing as this 'immortal passenger' soul... animals MIGHT be able to sense it? After all, they 'see', 'hear' and 'smell' many things that are hidden to us. And, if that were possible... doesn't the question of whether animals 'have an idea of the soul' become kind of irrelevent?


Last point.... once again.. we have focused on a nebulous terminology... an 'undefined' meaning of the word 'soul'. When most people say 'soul', what they mean tends to be an 'immortal spirit passenger in the flesh'. And, yet... most people consider it ALSO a Christian concept... and yet that 'passenger' version is NOT what scripture teaches. The Hebrew and Greek scriptures are fairly clear that the soul is an aspect OF the physical flesh... those the 'hunger' of the flesh, the 'fire in the blood'. One assumes that animals feel hungers... so why not assume that they are AWARE that they feel them?

And... how do we know that we are the only entity WITH these 'ideas' of 'souls'? Sounds like you are making assumptions that cannot be supported...
We don't. We don't have to; we just have to know that we ARE a creature with this idea.

Why doesn't a animal have a soul? (I guess I am aiming this at Christians).
Because they dont have intelligence?
Because the bible says so?
Because they dont love?
Why?

I mean does a foetus have a soul? Does someone who is born with a disease that makes them incapable of thought have a soul?

Do stupid people have less of a soul than smart people?
Do murderers who love to kill have a soul?

Anyone?
I think the whole "soul" concept is bullshit.

We don't. We don't have to; we just have to know that we ARE a creature with this idea.

But, we don't all have 'this idea'... and it is hardly unique to 'us', if, for all we know, dogs have the same inkling.

I think the whole "soul" concept is bullshit.

Which one?

That's the part of this whole thread that frustrates me so... no one actually says what they MEAN by soul....

But, we don't all have 'this idea'... and it is hardly unique to 'us', if, for all we know, dogs have the same inkling.
It does not have to be unique to us, nor universally common amongst us, to make us (generalized) "special".

We don't know if others have this idea, but we do know we have it.

It does not have to be unique to us, nor universally common amongst us, to make us (generalized) "special".

We don't know if others have this idea, but we do know we have it.

We do not know that we have 'it'... whatever 'it' is... it seems to be becoming more and more hazy, as layer upon layer of compounded non-specificness piles up.

"The topic is a soul, not a body. Spiritually speaking, we are special in that regard."

How are we special if the thing that 'special' might or might not be limited to the 'we' you associate it with?

We do not know that we have 'it'... whatever 'it' is... it seems to be becoming more and more hazy, as layer upon layer of compounded non-specificness piles up.

"The topic is a soul, not a body. Spiritually speaking, we are special in that regard."

How are we special if the thing that 'special' might or might not be limited to the 'we' you associate it with?
Granted, I am going a bit off-topic talking about the 'idea of a soul', rather than talking about a 'soul' directly. It was just a note in response to a post that said, paraphrased, 'All we have is the idea of a soul... so we are not special.' I'm saying that because we are beings that have that particular idea (and similar extraordinary concepts), that does make us special. (That spawned the whole 'brains being highly evolved make us special' subthread.) It's not that no one else could have such ideas, but that we are the only ones we know for sure do.

I'm not actually willing to engage a discussion about the 'soul'. :) Not now, anyway. It was just a side thought.