NationStates Jolt Archive

The Mormons (The LDS church as opposed to the much more fun LSD church) teach that Native Americans are a lost tribe of Hebrews. Well, DNA testing proves that they're not.

Mormons are determined to ignore the evidence.

"This may look like the crushing blow to Mormonism from the outside," said Jan Shipps, a professor emeritus of religious studies at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, who has studied the church for 40 years. "But religion ultimately does not rest on scientific evidence, but on mystical experiences. There are different ways of looking at truth."


There are different ways of looking at truth. Yep, like ignoring it altogether.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-mormon16feb16,0,1135048.story?track=hpmostemailedlink

Does this mean that the magic Mormon underwear is not really magic either? We need to be told!

Well, people have a long history of denying scientific evidence.

Does this mean that the magic Mormon underwear is not really magic either? We need to be told!

I'm afraid so.

Makes me feel better that a silly religion got whacked. Would've felt better if it was Phelps.

I always wondered why I just seemed to intuitively understand Hebrew, avoid pork, and like the idea that you should divorce your husband if he doesn't please you sexually....

Don't out rule mutation!

Bah...I dunno. Anyone else dig Shakira?

They say that the Native Americans are an lost Hebrew tribe, so, how do they propose the Hebrew tribe got to the new world?

I'm afraid so.

:( Damn!

The Mormons (The LDS church as opposed to the much more fun LSD church) teach that Native Americans are a lost tribe of Hebrews. Well, DNA testing proves that they're not.

Mormons are determined to ignore the evidence.



There are different ways of looking at truth. Yep, like ignoring it altogether.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-mormon16feb16,0,1135048.story?track=hpmostemailedlink


Wonderful. But even without this the teachings of Mormons are completely out of touch with the real world.

Well, if there's one thing to be said for Mormons...hmm...wait...something'll come to me...



Nice choirs?

Well, if there's one thing to be said for Mormons...hmm...wait...something'll come to me...



Nice choirs?

Rubbish non-magical underwear though.

They say that the Native Americans are an lost Hebrew tribe, so, how do they propose the Hebrew tribe got to the new world?
http://www.colostate.edu/Dept/Entomology/courses/en570/papers_2000/wells.html

The Mormons (The LDS church as opposed to the much more fun LSD church) teach that Native Americans are a lost tribe of Hebrews. Well, DNA testing proves that they're not.


One time I was stuck with a Mormon preacher in an airplane. He gave me the pamphlets and their version of the Bible (The book of Mormons?). It was so ridiculous and this person started pestering me about what I think about religion and all. :headbang:

It is my worst trip as of date.:(

Native americans got there via the arctic region. They are genetically composed mainly of oriental stock although recent studies show that approximately 1/7 of their dna may be from a tribe who lived in what is now france. This is backed up by artifacts, at that time unique to this area found being made in the newly colonised lands in northern america

It's kind of odd to be talked about this way...

I've always thought that mormonism was a big swindling scam that took on a life of its own. That being said, I feel sorry for the Mormons. It's tough to have your faith in something shaken.

They say that the Native Americans are an lost Hebrew tribe, so, how do they propose the Hebrew tribe got to the new world?
In the book of Ether (yes, Ether) in the Book O'Mormon, they sailed in ships. Airtight, round ships. It was interesting reading. The whole BOM is pretty interesting stuff, though I cannot recommend it as a holy book- no offence meant to any LDSers here.

(I lived in Salt Lake City for four years. I'm Jewish and Native American- by different side of my family, so that doesn't make their hypothoses/belief right. There were many a heated argument, let me tell you!)

It's kind of odd to be talked about this way...
I take it you are a First Nation person, no?

Mmm...controversial linky goodness...
http://www.cr.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/

(Disclaimer, For clarity and you know where my argument is coming from: I'm not a Mormon, in fact I argue that the church of LDS it's not even a Christian church, in as much as Islam believes and teaches in the virgin birth of Christ can equally not be Christians, the Mormons can utilize Jesus without being Christians... Okay, back on point)

I do not believe that this DNA testing disproves the Mormon teaching that the Native Americans are descendants of a lost tribe of the Hebrews.

In much the same way that the Ethiopian Jews are not genetically the same as Russian descended Jews and Middle east Jews are not genetically the same as either of the other two (for this example, there are many more than just three groups).

The "Hebrews" describe themselves as a diverse group of believers who left Egypt under the same leadership, and there is no reason to assume that they 'began' as a single genetic group, but a ethnic and religious group of genetically different people that shared the same faith.

Thus, according the Book of LDS, when the tribe was supposed to have left the other tribes, their entire tribe would have left, not leaving a genetic marker nor carrying with them a genetic marker, from the other eleven tribes that stayed behind.

Additionally, the argument that a genetically Asian Jewish tribe should exist but does not could be made, arguing that the Asian Jewish tribe IS the tribe that left for America, matching quite well with the genetic DNA testing showing that Native American Indians have more in common genetically with Asians than anyone else.

Tribe of Benjamen it twas. (I think.)

I take it you are a First Nation person, no?

Mmm...controversial linky goodness...
http://www.cr.nps.gov/archeology/kennewick/
I'd just like to point out that there has been a movement among certain anthropologists and scientists to prove that native people are not truly 'aboriginal' in order to disprove land claims and such. The idea is to trace our genes back to their 'source' and then push the notion that this invalidates any claim we have to our lands. They fail to accept that this is as ridiculous as tracing all of human ancestry back to the same region, and then saying that no one can claim lands outside of that region. Still, once again, science is being used to 'get rid of' aboriginal people.

I'd just like to point out that there has been a movement among certain anthropologists and scientists to prove that native people are not truly 'aboriginal' in order to disprove land claims and such. The idea is to trace our genes back to their 'source' and then push the notion that this invalidates any claim we have to our lands. They fail to accept that this is as ridiculous as tracing all of human ancestry back to the same region, and then saying that no one can claim lands outside of that region. Still, once again, science is being used to 'get rid of' aboriginal people.
I'm not trying to 'get rid of' aborigional people. I have enough Native American (as we say in the USA) in me to be a legal Native American. Only thing is, Pa turned the government down on recognizing us so, and so, I'm grandfathered out. I'm merely presenting information that I would like a person's input on, for example, this article on the Kennewick man. The DNA tests show that the remains do not come from Asain stock, as most other Native Amerians. Its very interesting, I think, and shows that humans (or close to it) have been doing things much longer than we like to think.

Mathematicians can't figure out how the Mayan's built pyramids. That shows something. What was in the library of Alexandria? Were there PreColumbian voyages, like that of the Vikings? I think we have yet to learn much of our ancient origins, with the mapping of the human genome and whatnot. I can't wait until we learn more!

Mormons are determined to ignore the evidence.

of course. they wouldn't be mormons if they believed factual things. shit, they wouldn't be mormons if their beliefs made sense.

Mathematicians can't figure out how the Mayan's built pyramids.

piling stones on top of each other?

I'd just like to point out that there has been a movement among certain anthropologists and scientists to prove that native people are not truly 'aboriginal' in order to disprove land claims and such. The idea is to trace our genes back to their 'source' and then push the notion that this invalidates any claim we have to our lands. They fail to accept that this is as ridiculous as tracing all of human ancestry back to the same region, and then saying that no one can claim lands outside of that region. Still, once again, science is being used to 'get rid of' aboriginal people.

(emphasis added)
the descendants of andrew jackson, perhaps?

piling stones on top of each other?
Well, duh! :p

I'm talking about, like, how without horses and why they stand the way they are. Architectual stuff.

Well, duh! :p

I'm talking about, like, how without horses and why they stand the way they are. Architectual stuff.

an endless supply of cheap labor, thats how!
http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/front/achievement.jpg
You Can Do Anything You Set Your Mind To When You Have Vision, Determination, And An Endless Supply Of Cheap Labor.

I'm not trying to 'get rid of' aborigional people. I have enough Native American (as we say in the USA) in me to be a legal Native American. I didn't include you in that group:)

Only thing is, Pa turned the government down on recognizing us so, and so, I'm grandfathered out. I'm merely presenting information that I would like a person's input on, for example, this article on the Kennewick man. The DNA tests show that the remains do not come from Asain stock, as most other Native Amerians. Its very interesting, I think, and shows that humans (or close to it) have been doing things much longer than we like to think.

Mathematicians can't figure out how the Mayan's built pyramids. That shows something. What was in the library of Alexandria? Were there PreColumbian voyages, like that of the Vikings? I think we have yet to learn much of our ancient origins, with the mapping of the human genome and whatnot. I can't wait until we learn more! I agree. I'm interested in what is being discovered, and comparing these things to our oral histories...but I view all new information with suspicion, simply because of the attempts that have been made, (and are still being made) to 'breed us out' or to invalidate our land claims etc. I brought up what I did as additional information, not as a personal accusation:)

(Disclaimer, For clarity and you know where my argument is coming from: I'm not a Mormon, in fact I argue that the church of LDS it's not even a Christian church, in as much as Islam believes and teaches in the virgin birth of Christ can equally not be Christians, the Mormons can utilize Jesus without being Christians... Okay, back on point)

I do not believe that this DNA testing disproves the Mormon teaching that the Native Americans are descendants of a lost tribe of the Hebrews.

In much the same way that the Ethiopian Jews are not genetically the same as Russian descended Jews and Middle east Jews are not genetically the same as either of the other two (for this example, there are many more than just three groups).

The "Hebrews" describe themselves as a diverse group of believers who left Egypt under the same leadership, and there is no reason to assume that they 'began' as a single genetic group, but a ethnic and religious group of genetically different people that shared the same faith.

Thus, according the Book of LDS, when the tribe was supposed to have left the other tribes, their entire tribe would have left, not leaving a genetic marker nor carrying with them a genetic marker, from the other eleven tribes that stayed behind.

Additionally, the argument that a genetically Asian Jewish tribe should exist but does not could be made, arguing that the Asian Jewish tribe IS the tribe that left for America, matching quite well with the genetic DNA testing showing that Native American Indians have more in common genetically with Asians than anyone else.

Actually DNA testing has shown that the Ethiopian claim is true. Whilst Jewish people are as you said very diverse both genetically and otherwise, they do all posses particular commonalities in their DNA that link them to the origonal Jews. This being said you could argue that many current Israelis have very little to do with the origonal Israelis, given that by blood they are probably 99% German, Russian or French and 1% origonal Hebrew or Jewish, whichever term you wish to use. The point is that, with the exception of those who have converted (which is quite rare) all Jews share these common markers, and even if a tribe did break off at some point there would have been that much intermixing prior to this to ensure that they would posses the same markers. Also with respect to Native Americans I believe there is a tribe somwhere in either the northern US or Canada which research has shown has significant dna markers of european origin. Mitercondrial (hope I spelt that correctly) DNA has apparently shown that this predates colonisation by 1000's of years. It is also apparent that the so called Clovis people were origonally from Europe, so in fact they are a mix of ancient European and Asian tribes, although by somthing like a 7 - 1 ratio in favour of the Asians.

Actually DNA testing has shown that the Ethiopian claim is true. Whilst Jewish people are as you said very diverse both genetically and otherwise, they do all posses particular commonalities in their DNA that link them to the origonal Jews. This being said you could argue that many current Israelis have very little to do with the origonal Israelis, given that by blood they are probably 99% German, Russian or French and 1% origonal Hebrew or Jewish, whichever term you wish to use. The point is that, with the exception of those who have converted (which is quite rare) all Jews share these common markers, and even if a tribe did break off at some point there would have been that much intermixing prior to this to ensure that they would posses the same markers. Also with respect to Native Americans I believe there is a tribe somwhere in either the northern US or Canada which research has shown has significant dna markers of european origin. Mitercondrial (hope I spelt that correctly) DNA has apparently shown that this predates colonisation by 1000's of years. It is also apparent that the so called Clovis people were origonally from Europe, so in fact they are a mix of ancient European and Asian tribes, although by somthing like a 7 - 1 ratio in favour of the Asians.

I agree.

The argument 'for Hebrew tribe' would have to argue that the twelfth tribe left 'before' the intermixing period, and that the Ethiopians intermixed during the reign of David and Solomon.


As to the genetic 'European' markers in northern native Americans, I've heard arguments that this could be evidence from, as recently as, the Newfoundland Viking colony (real), and the much more ridiculous and hard to fathom, Viking excursion into central Minnesota from the Hudson Bay area (I don't believe it myself). But either of which could be old enough (800 years?) to have spread genetic markers as far as they are finding them.

Again though, the DNA test today aren't as exclusive in the negative as the article would lead one to believe, IMO.

I'm not trying to 'get rid of' aborigional people. I have enough Native American (as we say in the USA) in me to be a legal Native American. Only thing is, Pa turned the government down on recognizing us so, and so, I'm grandfathered out. I'm merely presenting information that I would like a person's input on, for example, this article on the Kennewick man. The DNA tests show that the remains do not come from Asain stock, as most other Native Amerians. Its very interesting, I think, and shows that humans (or close to it) have been doing things much longer than we like to think.

Mathematicians can't figure out how the Mayan's built pyramids. That shows something. What was in the library of Alexandria? Were there PreColumbian voyages, like that of the Vikings? I think we have yet to learn much of our ancient origins, with the mapping of the human genome and whatnot. I can't wait until we learn more!

If your interested in that sort of thing theres a really good book called, "1421 the year China discovered the world" by Gavin Menzies. Very interesting book, showing the expeditions mounted by the chinese, many historians are now begining to believe that it was maps from these global voyages that Columbus and Magellian used. Very interesting book and its truly incredible, especially when you see the sheer size and technological standard of these ships, Columbus's ship is just about the size of the rudder of one of these vessels.

I agree. I'm interested in what is being discovered, and comparing these things to our oral histories...but I view all new information with suspicion, simply because of the attempts that have been made, (and are still being made) to 'breed us out' or to invalidate our land claims etc. I brought up what I did as additional information, not as a personal accusation
I didn't take that as a personal accusation, just kind of a place to pick up somewhere, no worries! :p

From my BSA experience, every tribe has their own oral traditions, am I right? They never are quite the same. We often have Blackfoot and other various tribes from the Mid-West of America. From what I know, we had quite a few tribes actually just in my town at one point or another.

I understand your concern over land claims. While I don't understand everything concerning the legislation and whatnot, I know its rough.

@the debate about being "Hebrew"/"Jewish":
God just kind of randomly picked Abraham, out in the desert. Over the years, the Hebrews constantly went to and fro between Palestine and Egypt. The diaspora was so big, I don't know about that DNA evidence. Hebrews can be assimilated into other cultures, just as the Ethipoians were taken in. The Queen of Shiba (sp?) and King David (or Saloman) was it? Defining "Jewish" is, well, hard. I would also think that it would be hard to identify that 1% of "Jew-Gene" that could link Hebrews and First Nation Americans.

Did anyone read my links? Bah, who does....

If your interested in that sort of thing theres a really good book called, "1421 the year China discovered the world" by Gavin Menzies. Very interesting book, showing the expeditions mounted by the chinese, many historians are now begining to believe that it was maps from these global voyages that Columbus and Magellian used. Very interesting book and its truly incredible, especially when you see the sheer size and technological standard of these ships, Columbus's ship is just about the size of the rudder of one of these vessels.
I'll be putting this on my Amazon wish list thingy ma-jiggy! :)

Religions have a time-honored tradition of outright ignoring anything that seems to conflict with their doctrine until the consequences of ignoring it any longer outweigh the consequences of being proven wrong. Christians should consider themselves lucky that the church finally caught on that the world is round and the Earth isn't the center of the universe.

Another book that I would recommend is "1491". It doesn't deal with Chinese. It's about the recent scientific evidence as to what the "New World" looked like before Columbus. The idea that the area was heavily settled. That the natives controled their environment, through fire and cutting non-food trees etc., at least as much as any agricultural society. There were cities bigger than London and Paris at the time. Even the Amazon was heavily settled and farmed using native fruits. Disease may have killed as many as 90% of the native population. This death occured ahead of European settlement so it seemed the New World was unpopulated. The Pilgrims actually moved into a native village, cleaned out the bodies, and used the houses to survive the first winter.

On DNA research, the new "National Geographic" has a great article on the most recent research. It includes a page of research that needs to be done. One of the big areas are the Native Americans. As is stated in other posts, many tribes are reluctant to submit DNA as it may undercut their own origin myths. (Myths in the most positive of meaning, just like Genesis) Recent studies have shown American populations well before the traditional migration through Canada.

Language studies have shown probably three migrations. Then there are tribes whos language is totally different than any other, such as the Zuni.