NationStates Jolt Archive

I am a Christian. I have been researching the end of the world lately. I have seen a lot of stuff out there on the Rapture, but I don't know what to think. The Bible never uses the word Rapture. I would be very grateful for arguements for and against the Rapture that I could include in a report I am writing for my pastor.

I'm an Atheist, so I don't believe it will happen. But if it does, I'm totally throwing a party because hopefully the religous crazies(Margeruite Perrin(SP? Crazy Lady on that Fox show), Pat Robertson, etc.) will be gone. Unfortunately, some religous noncrazies(Most people) will be gone too. Oh well, more stuff to steal.

Isn't Rapture a Blondie song? :confused:

I'm an Atheist, so I don't believe it will happen. But if it does, I'm totally throwing a party because hopefully the religous crazies(Margeruite Perrin(SP? Crazy Lady on that Fox show), Pat Robertson, etc.) will be gone. Unfortunately, some religous noncrazies(Most people) will be gone too. Oh well, more stuff to steal.

Feel free to join my post-apocalyptic scavenger gang. We hoard gasoline and fight in Thunderdome.

I am a Christian. I have been researching end times lately. I have seen a lot of stuff out there on the Rapture, but I don't know what to think. The Bible never uses the word Rapture. I would be very grateful for arguements for and against the Rapture that I could include in a report I am writing for my pastor.
Eh... didn't you do this thread like... 30 minutes ago?

OHhh! I got one! The rapure will take place on: June 6, 2006 or 6/6/6 or 666, the number of the beast.

Isn't that the feeling you get from sex?

OHhh! I got one! The rapure will take place on: June 6, 2006 or 6/6/6 or 666, the number of the beast.
Yeah, I thought of that. I don't think that it will though since only God knows. But, I do think that something is going to happen (just got this feeling).

OHhh! I got one! The rapure will take place on: June 6, 2006 or 6/6/6 or 666, the number of the beast.

Wow, day after my birthday. I better have a good party.

Isn't that the feeling you get from sex?
Nope, I'm a virgin; and this is a bad feeling.

Remember, using weird jargon like "endtimes" makes people think christian eschatologists are dodgy weirdos.

Use the term "the end of the world."

Remember, using weird jargon like "endtimes" makes people think christian eschatologists are dodgy weirdos.

Use the term "the end of the world."
Yeah, you're right. I'll fix that.

And why is it that you have to report to your pastor?

OHhh! I got one! The rapure will take place on: June 6, 2006 or 6/6/6 or 666, the number of the beast.

Nooo! That's two days before my Birthday... :(

Good thing I don't believe in a god.

And why is it that you have to report to your pastor?
I don't have to report to him, he is kind of like my mentor.

Nooo! That's two days before my Birthday... :(

Good thing I don't believe in a god.
Actually, if there is a Rapture the Christians will be having much more fun in heaven than those left behind.

Wow, day after my birthday. I better have a good party.


Then you and I share a birthday. fluffles for you:fluffle:

Isn't Rapture a Blondie song? :confused:


Toe to toe
Dancing very slow
Barely breathing
Almost comatose
Wall to wall
People hypnotised
And they're stepping lightly
Hang each night in Rapture

Back to back
Sacrailiac
Spineless movement
And a wild attack

Face to face
Sadly solitude
And it's finger popping
Twenty-four hour shopping in Rapture

Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's high
DJ's spinnin' are savin' my mind
Flash is fast, Flash is cool
Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do
And you don't stop, sure shot
Go out to the parking lot
And you get in your car and you drive real far
And you drive all night and then you see a light
And it comes right down and lands on the ground
And out comes a man from Mars
And you try to run but he's got a gun
And he shoots you dead and he eats your head
And then you're in the man from Mars
You go out at night, eatin' cars
You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too
Mercurys and Subarus
And you don't stop, you keep on eatin' cars
Then, when there's no more cars
You go out at night and eat up bars where the people meet
Face to face, dance cheek to cheek
One to one, man to man
Dance toe to toe
Don't move to slow, 'cause the man from Mars
Is through with cars, he's eatin' bars
Yeah, wall to wall, door to door, hall to hall
He's gonna eat 'em all
Rapture, be pure
Take a tour, through the sewer
Don't strain your brain, paint a train
You'll be singin' in the rain
I said don't stop, do punk rock

Well now you see what you wanna be
Just have your party on TV
'Cause the man from Mars won't eat up bars when the TV's on
And now he's gone back up to space
Where he won't have a hassle with the human race
And you hip-hop, and you don't stop
Just blast off, sure shot
'Cause the man from Mars stopped eatin' cars and eatin' bars
And now he only eats guitars, get up!

Actually, if there is a Rapture the Christians will be having much more fun in heaven than those left behind.


Actually, you might want to watch that little movie to assist with your report. Left Behind....it even has Kirk Cameron in it. I think I had a crush on him long ago. *dreamy eyed*

Wouldn’t god’s calendar be different from ours? In addition, what if god’s calendar was the Islamic one, or maybe he was the one that started the Chinese calendar?
I guess if you believe in god you will have to figure out what calendar to use.

Wouldn’t god’s calendar be different from ours? In addition, what if god’s calendar was the Islamic one, or maybe he was the one that started the Chinese calendar?
I guess if you believe in god you will have to figure out what calendar to use.

God's calendar is probably just one with the little kitten on it that says "hang in there".

Actually, if there is a Rapture the Christians will be having much more fun in heaven than those left behind.

You underestimate the amount of fun I could have in a post-rapture world.

But yeah, heaven would sound good, but people have been predicting the end of the world for centuries. As of yet, they have always been wrong.

Actually, you might want to watch that little movie to assist with your report. Left Behind....it even has Kirk Cameron in it. I think I had a crush on him long ago. *dreamy eyed*
I'm reading the books and saw the movie.

Here is a link to a good amount of information on the rapture with a variety of opposing views: http://www.religioustolerance.org/rapture.htm

Here is a link to a good amount of information on the rapture with a variety of opposing views: http://www.religioustolerance.org/rapture.htm
Mindy lost 75 pounds. I have to think about that.

Actually, if there is a Rapture the Christians will be having much more fun in heaven than those left behind.

Pfft the Christians got nothing on Valhalla. Booze, sex, and beating the crap out of people for all time, yes sir.

You underestimate the amount of fun I could have in a post-rapture world.

But yeah, heaven would sound good, but people have been predicting the end of the world for centuries. As of yet, they have always been wrong.
YES!!! You ARE RIGHT, they have been wrong. But that is because no one, even Jesus, knows when the time is except for God.

I don't think that you would be having much fun. Imagine how many wrecks there would be if people just disappeared while they were driving, or flying an airplane. Also, I am sure that some one who is close to you is a Christian, wouldn't you miss them?

Here is a link to a good amount of information on the rapture with a variety of opposing views: http://www.religioustolerance.org/rapture.htm
Thanks, I'll read over that.

I don't think that you would be having much fun. Imagine how many wrecks there would be if people just disappeared while they were driving, or flying an airplane. Also, I am sure that some one who is close to you is a Christian, wouldn't you miss them?
I though that was just satire in The Simpsons, a hyperbole of sorts. But now I see people really believe it will take this form... That is JUST absurd.

Well, I dunno 'bout the Rapture, but if you wanna find out about the Rupture, shake your Christian butt on over to www.subgenius.com (http://www.subgenius.com) instead. Let Ivan Stang set you straight on how the world is gonna end.

YES!!! You ARE RIGHT, they have been wrong. But that is because no one, even Jesus, knows when the time is except for God.

I don't think that you would be having much fun. Imagine how many wrecks there would be if people just disappeared while they were driving, or flying an airplane. Also, I am sure that some one who is close to you is a Christian, wouldn't you miss them?

I don't know many Christians...

And all that chaos would be a great opportunity to start up my own post-apocolyptic haven in my home town. I have enough firearms and ammo to supply my entire band of friends... and then take control of the local government (I'm pretty sure most of the gov. here is Christian)... I find those kind of things to be fun.

And then when I die, I could go straight to hell.

God's calendar is probably just one with the little kitten on it that says "hang in there".

so the picture "every time I masturbate god kills a kitten." is true

I must be a monster all those poor little kittens that I made god kill

OHhh! I got one! The rapure will take place on: June 6, 2006 or 6/6/6 or 666, the number of the beast.

So all those other 6/6/6 's were just dress rehearsals?

YES!!! You ARE RIGHT, they have been wrong. But that is because no one, even Jesus, knows when the time is except for God.

I don't think that you would be having much fun. Imagine how many wrecks there would be if people just disappeared while they were driving, or flying an airplane. Also, I am sure that some one who is close to you is a Christian, wouldn't you miss them?


If arrogant Fundies who insist on claiming that only their little church are truly "christian" all disappeared, I for one wouldn't miss them. The world would be better off.

If arrogant Fundies who insist on claiming that only their little church are truly "christian" all disappeared, I for one wouldn't miss them. The world would be better off.

That’s why they invented the special kool-aid drink that's only for true believers:gundge:

If arrogant Fundies who insist on claiming that only their little church are truly "christian" all disappeared, I for one wouldn't miss them. The world would be better off.
In a way I agree. It isn't right for a Christian to say that some one else who has put their faith in Christ isn't a Christian and them doing so gives Christians' a bad name. I believe that if, before his death, Hitler accepted Christ we would see him in heaven.

I am God. You probably won't believe me, but then, no-one really does. I'm not reactionary enuff.. I digress.

The end of the world will come when the Sun burns out. That'll snuff the Earth right out of existence. I really rather hope you lot have gotten off your arses & colonised a few star systems by then. The Sun-zappo-thing is my little incentive for you..
Anyway, don't worry about it. The end of the world isn't nigh, and there is no heaven - just Heavenly Sex ;)

The Left Behind series is pretty good about this stuff and as far as I remember from HS it is pretty well on to the Bible. I'm agnostic and I love the books. I finished 7 out of 12 of them. I'm on the 8th now.

In a way I agree. It isn't right for a Christian to say that some one else who has put their faith in Christ isn't a Christian and them doing so gives Christians' a bad name. I believe that if, before his death, Hitler accepted Christ we would see him in heaven.

...Where would be the justice in that?

God: Well, you may have caused the deaths of millions of people... BUT, you believed in Christ, so you get to go to heaven.

Hitler: Whee!

The Left Behind series is pretty good about this stuff and as far as I remember from HS it is pretty well on to the Bible. I'm agnostic and I love the books. I finished 7 out of 12 of them. I'm on the 8th now.
I'm on the second (wish I was further), and it does seem pretty Biblical, but I would expect that from Tim La'Haye.

In a way I agree. It isn't right for a Christian to say that some one else who has put their faith in Christ isn't a Christian and them doing so gives Christians' a bad name. I believe that if, before his death, Hitler accepted Christ we would see him in heaven.

In my view anyone who believes themself to be a Christian is one. To the second point; it is not infrequently believed that Hitler was a Christian since most of the Nazis were, the Nazi party was supported by the Lutheran church, and was initially supported by the Catholic church (largely due to their support of Mussolini). I'm not sure of your beliefs regarding Christianity (there is alot of variability there) but do you believe that Hitler would be in heaven if he was indeed a Christian?

...Where would be the justice in that?

God: Well, you may have caused the deaths of millions of people... BUT, you believed in Christ, so you get to go to heaven.

Hitler: Whee!
It doesn't seem just at all, but I truely believe that there is no such thing as the unforgiveable sin. His reward would not be as great, but he would be there. Jesus died for the entire world, especially people like Hitler.

In my view anyone who believes themself to be a Christian is one. To the second point; it is not infrequently believed that Hitler was a Christian since most of the Nazis were, the Nazi party was supported by the Lutheran church, and was initially supported by the Catholic church (largely due to their support of Mussolini). I'm not sure of your beliefs regarding Christianity (there is alot of variability there) but do you believe that Hitler would be in heaven if he was indeed a Christian?
Yes, if he had accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior, he would be in heaven.

Of course my views change. God shows me through the Holy Spirit what I have wrong. They may seem varible because they are complex and I do not wish to go into great detail explaining every detail.

I am God. You probably won't believe me, but then, no-one really does. I'm not reactionary enuff.. I digress.

The end of the world will come when the Sun burns out. That'll snuff the Earth right out of existence. I really rather hope you lot have gotten off your arses & colonised a few star systems by then. The Sun-zappo-thing is my little incentive for you..
Anyway, don't worry about it. The end of the world isn't nigh, and there is no heaven - just Heavenly Sex ;)

Looking at it scientifically, the Sun will not "burn" out. Rather the sun will continue to expand like all stars do and it is believed that in a billion years the sun will expand to a point where life is no longer able to survive on Earth. In any case, this is irrelevant since humans will be gone long before than (worst case scenario: we wipe ourselves out in the next few hundred years. best case scenario: within a few million years we evolve into something other than human).

I'm on the second (wish I was further), and it does seem pretty Biblical, but I would expect that from Tim La'Haye.

7 has been my favorite thus far.

It doesn't seem just at all, but I truely believe that there is no such thing as the unforgiveable sin. His reward would not be as great, but he would be there. Jesus died for the entire world, especially people like Hitler.

He should at least spend a while in purgatory, or something. If I went to heaven and saw Hitler there, I'd probably murder him. I'd find a way.

Looking at it scientifically, the Sun will not "burn" out. Rather the sun will continue to expand like all stars do and it is believed that in a billion years the sun will expand to a point where life is no longer able to survive on Earth. In any case, this is irrelevant since humans will be gone long before than (worst case scenario: we wipe ourselves out in the next few hundred years. best case scenario: within a few million years we evolve into something other than human).
Yeah, I have heard about that, but I don't know if I can believe it.

7 has been my favorite thus far.
Can't wait to read it.

I was a christian once; wasn't there something about "turning the other cheek," as in, don't exact revenge for the sake of getting even? I wouldn't kill Hitler if I saw him in heaven; I'd assume he deserved to be there for reasons I didn't know, and I'd probably inquire.

Meh, Heaven probably has something like laughing gas in the atmosphere - some agency to make it impossible to murder people like Hitler, assuming he ever turned up there.He should at least spend a while in purgatory, or something. If I went to heaven and saw Hitler there, I'd probably murder him. I'd find a way.

He should at least spend a while in purgatory, or something. If I went to heaven and saw Hitler there, I'd probably murder him. I'd find a way.
I understand that this seems unfair, but he would go straight to heaven like all other Christians (I do not believe in purgatory). And if you were in heaven (I say if because I don't know if you are a Christian or not) you couldn't murder him, there will be no sin in heaven.

And if you were in heaven (I say if because I don't know if you are a Christian or not) you couldn't murder him, there will be no sin in heaven.
I told you Ftagn. I say it's gas.

I was a christian once; wasn't there something about "turning the other cheek," as in, don't exact revenge for the sake of getting even? I wouldn't kill Hitler if I saw him in heaven; I'd assume he deserved to be there for reasons I didn't know, and I'd probably inquire.
It is by faith, not by works that you are saved.

The only reason that any one would be there would be because of faith in Jesus Christ.

I told you Ftagn. I say it's gas.
It isn't gas. No demons will be in heaven, so there will be no temptation to sin.

Actually, if there is a Rapture the Christians will be having much more fun in heaven than those left behind.

Well, good for them then! I can't think of anything worse than being the only atheist in heaven and being surrounded by Christians. Maybe that's what hell is all about.

I understand that this seems unfair, but he would go straight to heaven like all other Christians (I do not believe in purgatory). And if you were in heaven (I say if because I don't know if you are a Christian or not) you couldn't murder him, there will be no sin in heaven.
I'm not so sure.

John 3:16 says the way to heaven is through Jesus, which has been interpreted for the last 2000 years as believing in Jesus. However, this passage and others coudl just as easily be designed to show that the way through heaven is through believing in the ways of Jesus. That is, all of the other important things the bible says about turning the other cheek and loving thy neighbour that Jesus preached so fervently. Thus, you don't need to be Christian to get to heaven. Rather, you need to be a good person to get to heaven.

I'm not so sure.

John 3:16 says the way to heaven is through Jesus, which has been interpreted for the last 2000 years as believing in Jesus. However, this passage and others coudl just as easily be designed to show that the way through heaven is through believing in the ways of Jesus. That is, all of the other important things the bible says about turning the other cheek and loving thy neighbour that Jesus preached so fervently. Thus, you don't need to be Christian to get to heaven. Rather, you need to be a good person to get to heaven.
I don't know that I agree with that. The only other way is to live a perfect life. The reason that people go to hell is that God is pure and cannot be near what is unpure. Jesus died to make us pure so that we could be with God.

It isn't gas. No demons will be in heaven, so there will be no temptation to sin.

So I take it that you believe that whenever someone sins (or feels the urge to sin) it is because they were tempted to do so by a demon?

Yeah, I'd make one shabby Christian. I do believe in God, though; I don't just believe in God, I know God personally. Well, a God. My God. My direct understanding of God. It's nothing to do with books or buildings or clergy, but it's very real to me.

According to the God I know, 'Faith' is an admission of failure to examine one's self and the continuum in which we dwell. Only Doubt leads to eventual enlightenment. And to learn more about ourselves and our universe is to learn more of God, however you may perceive God to be.

So I take it that you believe that whenever someone sins (or feels the urge to sin) it is because they were tempted to do so by a demon?
Not completely. We are tempted by a demon, but we have free will and can decide to resist temptation.

So I take it that you believe that whenever someone sins (or feels the urge to sin) it is because they were tempted to do so by a demon?
I love those demon guys :D

Yeah, I'd make one shabby Christian. I do believe in God, though; I don't just believe in God, I know God personally. Well, a God. My God. My direct understanding of God. It's nothing to do with books or buildings or clergy, but it's very real to me.

According to the God I know, 'Faith' is an admission of failure to examine one's self and the continuum in which we dwell. Only Doubt leads to eventual enlightenment. And to learn more about ourselves and our universe is to learn more of God, however you may perceive God to be.
You have been mislead. We do need to learn more about God and he teaches us daily, but faith is believing in Jesus the Christ and that is where salavation comes from. Though I agree that it isn't all about books, and defenitly not clergy (that is relying on humans rather than God).

I don't know that I agree with that. The only other way is to live a perfect life. The reason that people go to hell is that God is pure and cannot be near what is unpure. Jesus died to make us pure so that we could be with God.
That's one of the great things about being a Protestant. We read the bible and make our own decisions based on what we see the text as indicating. That, in fact, was what Martin Luther' reformation was all about. Regardless of our differences of opinions, we are still brothers in this sense.

Sasha Cohen only won silver, therefore there is no god.

we are safe from teh rapture.

Not completely. We are tempted by a demon, but we have free will and can decide to resist temptation.

Yes, that is essentially what I was asking. So you believe that if I feel temptation when looking at an attractive woman it is not because that is a natural physiological response but rather because a demon is tempting me?

Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd explain why you are a Christian in my "Question for the Christians" thread.

That's one of the great things about being a Protestant. We read the bible and make our own decisions based on what we see the text as indicating. That, in fact, was what Martin Luther' reformation was all about. Regardless of our differences of opinions, we are still brothers in this sense.
Oh, crap. That's precisely why I think Protestantism is infierior to any form of Christianity (except for its close friend, Eastern Orthodoxy). The Reformation is a sandbox for people with no tact.

You have been mislead.
Says you. God has a different take on the matter. And I know who I'll prefer taking my advice from, if it's all the same to you, stranger.

I am a Christian. I have been researching the end of the world lately. I have seen a lot of stuff out there on the Rapture, but I don't know what to think. The Bible never uses the word Rapture. I would be very grateful for arguements for and against the Rapture that I could include in a report I am writing for my pastor.

Argument against the Rapture?

The fact that no compelling evidence exists to
A. Prove the existence of God
B. Prove the existence of a Christian God
C. Prove the authenticity of the Bible
D. Prove the veracity of the Book of Revelations
E. Prove that an event such as the Rapture is impending, or even possible

Is a sufficient argument against the Rapture. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Absent of such proof, doubt must be the order of the day.

As to arguing from a strictly Christian perspective(IE assuming A-E above), I can't help you there as I don't know enough about the niceties of Christian apocalypse lore.

Oh, crap. That's precisely why I think Protestantism is infierior to any form of Christianity (except for its close friend, Eastern Orthodoxy). The Reformation is a sandbox for people with no tact.

I've got to agree with this. Religious texts are just empty vessels into which people pour their own prejudice, so letting the hoi-poloi interpret them is little more than an invitation for like minds to hive together and act in an anti-social fashion at the behest of 'god'.

The only 'protestant' church that has somewhat avioded this is the C of E, and that's only because it's not really protestant.

Oh, crap. That's precisely why I think Protestantism is infierior to any form of Christianity (except for its close friend, Eastern Orthodoxy). The Reformation is a sandbox for people with no tact.
I'll be the first to admit that the Protestant way of thinking has led to the rise of a fundamentalism that makes even Catholicism look progressive, but at the same time it has spawned some of the most socially tolerant forms of Christianity known to humankind. I would know, I'm in one of those progressive congregations. Protestants particularly should never be painted with a broad brush.

I'm not a big fan of the Left Behind series. It just plays fast and loose with the Bible, and I don't agree with some of the presuppositions behind it. I don't even really buy into pre-millenialism (rapture) at all.

I am instead a Pan-millenialist. That is, it'll all pan out in the end. I'm good with that.

I don't know that I agree with that. The only other way is to live a perfect life. The reason that people go to hell is that God is pure and cannot be near what is unpure. Jesus died to make us pure so that we could be with God.

God can't be near "what is unpure"? What happened to being an all-powerful deity?

To me, this seems a major hole in Christian theology. Why can't God just god-card us all into Heaven? And using free will or "we can't know the mind of God" doesn't cut the mustard as an excuse. My question is this: Could God, if he wanted to, simply give salvation to every human being? And if he can, why doesn't he?

Looking at it scientifically, the Sun will not "burn" out. Rather the sun will continue to expand like all stars do and it is believed that in a billion years the sun will expand to a point where life is no longer able to survive on Earth. In any case, this is irrelevant since humans will be gone long before than (worst case scenario: we wipe ourselves out in the next few hundred years. best case scenario: within a few million years we evolve into something other than human).You'll have to forgive me for not keeping up to date on your scienctific theories. But if you want the inside scoop, the Sun will go Ka-Zappo in a just a bit under 5 billion of your years. First it'll expand quite rapidly, destroying Earth in the process. After that, it'll collapse in on itself, becomming even more insignificant that it is today.

Unlike a lot of you lot, I have a lot of faith in your survivability - in spite of the people you chose to govern yourselves - so I trust you won't go lemming on me.
And while I have high hopes for the future of your species (I can't wait to see if you decide to go electronic, for example), I doubt you'll stop calling yourselves humans - just like I doubt the bulk of you will stop considering yourselves the center & purpose of the universe. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Self-esteem is a good thing... Just don't become overly delusional & you'll do fine.

- God out ;)

OHhh! I got one! The rapure will take place on: June 6, 2006 or 6/6/6 or 666, the number of the beast.


That's when my girlfriend graduates.


I'm not so sure.

John 3:16 says the way to heaven is through Jesus, which has been interpreted for the last 2000 years as believing in Jesus. However, this passage and others coudl just as easily be designed to show that the way through heaven is through believing in the ways of Jesus. That is, all of the other important things the bible says about turning the other cheek and loving thy neighbour that Jesus preached so fervently. Thus, you don't need to be Christian to get to heaven. Rather, you need to be a good person to get to heaven.

That is supported by another passage from the New Testiment, I believe John, when it is said that it is not those who go to church who will be saved, but those who fallow the way of Jesus. It goes on to say that even if you are not Christain, if you do what Jesus was preaching (turn the other cheek, give of yourself, love you neibhors and your enemies), you will be saved, because that means that you have Jesus and good in your heart, even if you've never heard of him.

I don't know that I agree with that. The only other way is to live a perfect life. The reason that people go to hell is that God is pure and cannot be near what is unpure. Jesus died to make us pure so that we could be with God.

Not sure I agree with that interpretation. Only God is pure, and as God is one with the world as all times, through the holy spirit, so God is constantlt with that which is impure.

Oh, crap. That's precisely why I think Protestantism is infierior to any form of Christianity (except for its close friend, Eastern Orthodoxy). The Reformation is a sandbox for people with no tact.

And what, pray tell, is so wrong with Eastern Orthodoxy? The way we've kept the Scriptures pure and free of biased interpretation becomming dogma? Or the way we call apon the believe the think for themselves, to, as Jesus put it, "test everything"?

How is Orthodoxy a close friend to Protestantism? Us and the Catholics are the oldest encarnation of the church, and can both trace our foundings back to Jesus himself.

...I'm the first Christian in this thread to call rapture theology crap? Oh dear.

Revelation is misunderstood the same way that Nostradamus is misunderstood -- both are coded social commentary written by, for, and about the author's own time, a time when uncoded commentary often meant death. People pick them up hundreds or thousands of years later with no context to explain the symbolism, and assume the events are yet to happen.

God can't be near "what is unpure"? What happened to being an all-powerful deity?

To me, this seems a major hole in Christian theology. Why can't God just god-card us all into Heaven? And using free will or "we can't know the mind of God" doesn't cut the mustard as an excuse. My question is this: Could God, if he wanted to, simply give salvation to every human being? And if he can, why doesn't he?

He can, but that would go against free will. I'm sorry if "free will" doesn't cut it with you, but that's the answer.

God did "God-card" us all into Heaven. Adam and Eve rejected it. And in doing so, became more then animals, and fulfilled God's plan from the beginning, my thinking goes. I mean, God creates only one species with the tremendus potential that humanity has, and intended us to live as animals, never using the range of emotion of experience He made us capible of?

The next step, then, after humanity became independent, is to make the right choices, on our own, and get back into Paredice.

There can be no success without failure, there can be no freedom or growth without disobedience.

What good is it to be perfict through God going "poof!"? God gave us a potential to fufill, not a behavior to be programed. Eventual reunion with God is all the more meaningful when it comes through our own choices and decisions.


My thinking anyway. With the brain God made me with :D

...I'm the first Christian in this thread to call rapture theology crap? Oh dear.

Revelation is misunderstood the same way that Nostradamus is misunderstood -- both are coded social commentary written by, for, and about the author's own time, a time when uncoded commentary often meant death. People pick them up hundreds or thousands of years later with no context to explain the symbolism, and assume the events are yet to happen.

I'm with you here.

As for the Rapture, I really believe that it won't start until the Temple is re-built on "the rock" in Jerusalem.

As for who gets into Heaven. I believe the scriptures are clear. Not ONLY must you be a good person, and live your life according to what Jesus taught, but you must accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. Look, the Jews believe that in order to get into heaven, you must be perfect. However, we are humans, and thus we are falliable. We will NEVER be perfect, no matter how hard we try. That why Jesus died on the cross. The moment he died on the cross he took the sin of the world off of us, and put it on himself. Thus he became impure so that we may be pure. It is only through the blood of Jesus Christ that we will be clense from our sins, and that we may gain entrance into Heaven.

Can I get an Amen?

As for the Rapture, I really believe that it won't start until the Temple is re-built on "the rock" in Jerusalem.

As for who gets into Heaven. I believe the scriptures are clear. Not ONLY must you be a good person, and live your life according to what Jesus taught, but you must accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. Look, the Jews believe that in order to get into heaven, you must be perfect. However, we are humans, and thus we are falliable. We will NEVER be perfect, no matter how hard we try. That why Jesus died on the cross. The moment he died on the cross he took the sin of the world off of us, and put it on himself. Thus he became impure so that we may be pure. It is only through the blood of Jesus Christ that we will be clense from our sins, and that we may gain entrance into Heaven.

Can I get an Amen?

So the jews are going to hell?

That's harsh.

So the jews are going to hell?

That's harsh.

no way man. i'm going where all the good music is!

As for the Rapture, I really believe that it won't start until the Temple is re-built on "the rock" in Jerusalem.

As for who gets into Heaven. I believe the scriptures are clear. Not ONLY must you be a good person, and live your life according to what Jesus taught, but you must accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. Look, the Jews believe that in order to get into heaven, you must be perfect. However, we are humans, and thus we are falliable. We will NEVER be perfect, no matter how hard we try. That why Jesus died on the cross. The moment he died on the cross he took the sin of the world off of us, and put it on himself. Thus he became impure so that we may be pure. It is only through the blood of Jesus Christ that we will be clense from our sins, and that we may gain entrance into Heaven.

Can I get an Amen?


Yes, yes you can. Amen.

That being said, I have a few points of contention to what you said. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and thus took the burden of sin off the world, but as He and God are one and the same, I do not believe that he was made "unpure" through this. I see it of more of a washing away of sins.

Also, how can you be so sure that only Christains have the true word of God? How can you know that God didn't reveal Himself to all his children, in whatever way they would most easily accept and understand? Or even that we all got the same God, and cultural interpretations throughout thousands and thousands of years (a really really really really long time, especially since most early religion (Judeism, Hinduism) was passed down through oral traditions for a time?

Out of billions on the planted, you assume that you're small peice of the pie and your small peice of the pie alone has the true knowledge, the only way of looking at the Unexplanible Incomprehensible Mystery of Mysteries? In the words of the late great Mitch Headberg, "I'm not that cocky, God dammit"

Yes, yes you can. Amen.

That being said, I have a few points of contention to what you said. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and thus took the burden of sin off the world, but as He and God are one and the same, I do not believe that he was made "unpure" through this. I see it of more of a washing away of sins.

Well you are correct, Jesus is God in human form, so you are correct there.


Also, how can you be so sure that only Christains have the true word of God? How can you know that God didn't reveal Himself to all his children, in whatever way they would most easily accept and understand? Or even that we all got the same God, and cultural interpretations throughout thousands and thousands of years (a really really really really long time, especially since most early religion (Judeism, Hinduism) was passed down through oral traditions for a time?

That is where the whole faith thing comes in. I have faith that I am following the right path. I have faith that Jesus as a teacher was correct when he laid out his instruction for living. Look, I don't know what God's plan for the human race is, no one does. If he revelead his truth through Juadisim, through Hindiuism or any other religion, good for him. All I can do is live my life according to Jesus's teaching, believe that Jesus is the Son of God and God himself, and to accept him as my personal savior. That's all I can do.


Out of billions on the planted, you assume that you're small peice of the pie and your small peice of the pie alone has the true knowledge, the only way of looking at the Unexplanible Incomprehensible Mystery of Mysteries? In the words of the late great Mitch Headberg, "I'm not that cocky, God dammit"

Ahh, but in the first chapter, of the Old Testament, it says that God created everything that was, is, and will be on this earth and in this universe. So I believe that if there is other life out there that God would reveeal the truth to them. God is not an impersonal deity that ignores you. I believe he is with you at all time through the Holy Spirit. He reveals the truth to everyone who seeks it. Every single life that God has ever created is important to him, so yea, I do believe that this planet is important in the eyes of God, and any other planet that may hold life that he creates.

He can, but that would go against free will. I'm sorry if "free will" doesn't cut it with you, but that's the answer.

God did "God-card" us all into Heaven. Adam and Eve rejected it. And in doing so, became more then animals, and fulfilled God's plan from the beginning, my thinking goes. I mean, God creates only one species with the tremendus potential that humanity has, and intended us to live as animals, never using the range of emotion of experience He made us capible of?

The next step, then, after humanity became independent, is to make the right choices, on our own, and get back into Paredice.

There can be no success without failure, there can be no freedom or growth without disobedience.

What good is it to be perfict through God going "poof!"? God gave us a potential to fufill, not a behavior to be programed. Eventual reunion with God is all the more meaningful when it comes through our own choices and decisions.


My thinking anyway. With the brain God made me with :D

This still doesn't explain the standards of behavior that your God expects. Why did he decide that so many things were sinful? If good and evil are determined by the will of God, why did he not create different definitions of good and evil more conducive to human life? For example why not a morality that encourages and directs the natural drives and passions he gave us, as opposed to a morality that demands that we stifle them. And any claim of "that would make it too easy" just turns God into a sadist. He gives people these drives and passions but then decides that we have to suppress them; if we do (and thus largely fail to enjoy life) we are infinitely rewarded but if we follow our natural inclinations we are eternally punished. The Christians who believe one can only be saved by accepting Jesus (since we can NEVER reach God's standards) exemplify this problem to a far greater extent.

Well you are correct, Jesus is God in human form, so you are correct there.

Peachy :)



That is where the whole faith thing comes in. I have faith that I am following the right path. I have faith that Jesus as a teacher was correct when he laid out his instruction for living. Look, I don't know what God's plan for the human race is, no one does. If he revelead his truth through Juadisim, through Hindiuism or any other religion, good for him. All I can do is live my life according to Jesus's teaching, believe that Jesus is the Son of God and God himself, and to accept him as my personal savior. That's all I can do.

Amen.



Ahh, but in the first chapter, of the Old Testament, it says that God created everything that was, is, and will be on this earth and in this universe. So I believe that if there is other life out there that God would reveeal the truth to them. God is not an impersonal deity that ignores you. I believe he is with you at all time through the Holy Spirit. He reveals the truth to everyone who seeks it. Every single life that God has ever created is important to him, so yea, I do believe that this planet is important in the eyes of God, and any other planet that may hold life that he creates.

Accully, I was refering to other religions on earth, not other planets. the "small slice of the pie" was Christains, or any single religion.



I agree with everying you said above. My only thing is the with "only Christains go to Heaven" thing. Exactly what you said in the second box, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm ganna fallow the path to God my heart (hopefully God guideing me) tells me to be correct, and you will do the same, and so will everyone else seeking God. With any luck, we'll all meet up at the destination.


I believe in Jesus Christ, and that Christianity is a path to God. In my mind, that doesn't automatically mean that Hinduism, Buddhism, Pagainism, Judeism, Islam, whathave you is not.

This still doesn't explain the standards of behavior that your God expects. Why did he decide that so many things were sinful? If good and evil are determined by the will of God, why did he not create different definitions of good and evil more conducive to human life? For example why not a morality that encourages and directs the natural drives and passions he gave us, as opposed to a morality that demands that we stifle them. And any claim of "that would make it too easy" just turns God into a sadist. He gives people these drives and passions but then decides that we have to suppress them; if we do (and thus largely fail to enjoy life) we are infinitely rewarded but if we follow our natural inclinations we are eternally punished. The Christians who believe one can only be saved by accepting Jesus (since we can NEVER reach God's standards) exemplify this problem to a far greater extent.

I'd love to continue this discussion with you, but I have work early in thr morning. I will be back tomarrow night, though, and I will respond directly to the above. Hope you're still intrested in talking about it at that point. :)

That is supported by another passage from the New Testiment, I believe John, when it is said that it is not those who go to church who will be saved, but those who fallow the way of Jesus. It goes on to say that even if you are not Christain, if you do what Jesus was preaching (turn the other cheek, give of yourself, love you neibhors and your enemies), you will be saved, because that means that you have Jesus and good in your heart, even if you've never heard of him.
Now that's what I'm talking about!

Sorry, I get excited when I come across other sensible Christians.

no way man. i'm going where all the good music is!

As long as there is no klezmer music, I'll be happy.

I believe in Jesus Christ, and that Christianity is a path to God. In my mind, that doesn't automatically mean that Hinduism, Buddhism, Pagainism, Judeism, Islam, whathave you is not.

Ehh, Well... on Pagainism, God did say to stay away from that.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12a
"When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire [an ancient occult practice], or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination [detestable] to the LORD..."

1 Corinthians 10:18-22

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

This still doesn't explain the standards of behavior that your God expects. Why did he decide that so many things were sinful? If good and evil are determined by the will of God, why did he not create different definitions of good and evil more conducive to human life? For example why not a morality that encourages and directs the natural drives and passions he gave us, as opposed to a morality that demands that we stifle them. And any claim of "that would make it too easy" just turns God into a sadist. Bingo, you have a number one argument against christianity. There's apparently no logical way there could be a benevolent God (except, of course, if you can convince yourself of any of the following: "God works in mysterious ways," or "He's all powerful and what do we know?" etc, but those aren't answers. No monotheist that has a benevolent god can give an answer to WHY (nor, incidentally, to the free will they believe solves everything. It also can't exist with an allpowerful and allknowing God). Convient to overlook, isn't it?

I am a Christian. I have been researching the end of the world lately. I have seen a lot of stuff out there on the Rapture, but I don't know what to think. The Bible never uses the word Rapture. I would be very grateful for arguements for and against the Rapture that I could include in a report I am writing for my pastor.

Heres an aproach; see if you can aproacg revelations as a book that has already been fulfilled nearly 2,000 years ago. My guess is that when you realise that the various things in revelations refer to real and actual rome (not symbolic), such as the emperor's name being the equivalent of 666, and that Rome is built on seven hills. Anyhow, check it out.

Jesus said he would be back soon, that many of his disciples would still be alive when he returned. It has been 2,000 years. That is not soon my any persons standards, and if you are one of those Christians who believe in young earth explanations, that means we've been waiting 1/3 of time; thats not even "soon" by gods standards.

Not completely. We are tempted by a demon, but we have free will and can decide to resist temptation.

This little tangent was all started because someone said they'd try to kill Hitler, were the two of them to arrive in heaven. You said that it wouldn't be possible, because there would be no sin in heaven. Now you're saying that there is a component to sin that is not demons, but is human decision. The way I'm putting this together, it seems that free will, or the ability to make decisions, is taken away in heaven, because we are barred from sin. I suppose I'm really asking if demons are a necessary condition for sin, because if they aren't, humans should be able to sin in heaven; however, if they are required, humans have very little free will, especially in heaven. So, how does all this fit together from a christian perspective?

This still doesn't explain the standards of behavior that your God expects. Why did he decide that so many things were sinful? If good and evil are determined by the will of God, why did he not create different definitions of good and evil more conducive to human life? For example why not a morality that encourages and directs the natural drives and passions he gave us, as opposed to a morality that demands that we stifle them. And any claim of "that would make it too easy" just turns God into a sadist.

God is a sadist. Well, that or simply an asshole.
Read Job.

God gets goaded into a bet with Satan, lets Satan kill the man's family and destroy his farm to prove a point.

And when Satan's done and God's point is proven, what does He do? Why He just gives him some new kids, as if that'll make up for the old ones.

So either God's an asshole, or we have a rather solid proof that the Bible really isn't "the divine truth".

Apparently, when the Rapture comes, all Christians still living are going to be immediately lifted up into heaven.

A friend of mine, a comic book writer, used the Rapture as a theme for a book he wrote. His take? Christians were shot up out of the atmosphere as though out of cannons. They were alive when they started their journeys, but were blasted at extremely high speed out into space.

It really was a funny image.

Now that's what I'm talking about!

Sorry, I get excited when I come across other sensible Christians.

Me too, it's rarer then I'd like (but not as rare as lots of people think).

God is a sadist. Well, that or simply an asshole.
Read Job.

God gets goaded into a bet with Satan, lets Satan kill the man's family and destroy his farm to prove a point.

And when Satan's done and God's point is proven, what does He do? Why He just gives him some new kids, as if that'll make up for the old ones.

So either God's an asshole, or we have a rather solid proof that the Bible really isn't "the divine truth".

The book of Job, like most of the Old Testiment, is symbology geared towards telling you how you should act in relation to God and to other people. The message of Job is, when God says jump, you say "how high?" and that no matter what happens, don't lose faith in God.

You gatta look at it as a product of it's times. Back then, children were recources, so it makes more sence to replace them then it would in modern times.

Besides, Job earned the Kingdom of Heaven, and will be reunited with his family there.

The book of Job, like most of the Old Testiment, is symbology geared towards telling you how you should act in relation to God and to other people. The message of Job is, when God says jump, you say "how high?" and that no matter what happens, don't lose faith in God.

You gatta look at it as a product of it's times. Back then, children were recources, so it makes more sence to replace them then it would in modern times.

Besides, Job earned the Kingdom of Heaven, and will be reunited with his family there.
Ah, that's good to know. I suppose this puts to bed any leftover debate about creationism then. It's not actually real, it's just "symbology", right?

Of course, the question then has to be asked.. if you have to look at the Old Testament as the product of its times, what makes the New Testaments any different?

And if the New Testaments are no different, we come back again to the original topic of the thread... look at the Rapture as "symbology" and a product of its times, nothing more.

I am a Christian. I have been researching the end of the world lately. I have seen a lot of stuff out there on the Rapture, but I don't know what to think. The Bible never uses the word Rapture. I would be very grateful for arguements for and against the Rapture that I could include in a report I am writing for my pastor.
All I can say is don't worry about it. Live a good life untill the end comes, either by death or rature. Don't worry about it! God wouldn't want you to worry about it so don't.
No one can change it or do anything about it. It willl come when it comes.
I live my life one day at a time. Trying to live it honestly and how God would want me to. And more oftn than not I happy and in a good mood.

the rapture is a disco-punk-funk bank from new york :p

Bingo, you have a number one argument against christianity. There's apparently no logical way there could be a benevolent God (except, of course, if you can convince yourself of any of the following: "God works in mysterious ways," or "He's all powerful and what do we know?" etc, but those aren't answers. No monotheist that has a benevolent god can give an answer to WHY (nor, incidentally, to the free will they believe solves everything. It also can't exist with an allpowerful and allknowing God). Convient to overlook, isn't it?
The key word, there, is monotheist. Discarding of explicit external monotheism and the omnipotence implied therein makes the notion of a single, benevolent God considerably easier to visualise.

The key word, there, is monotheist. Discarding of explicit external monotheism and the omnipotence implied therein makes the notion of a single, benevolent God considerably easier to visualise.Of course, that's why I put that in there. ;)

All I can say is don't worry about it. Live a good life untill the end comes, either by death or rature. Don't worry about it! God wouldn't want you to worry about it so don't.
No one can change it or do anything about it. It willl come when it comes.
I live my life one day at a time. Trying to live it honestly and how God would want me to. And more oftn than not I happy and in a good mood.
The only problem with that is that I feel that God is calling to be prepared for the end, and prepare a way for others (if there is in fact a Rapture) this means that I need to think about it.

linky (http://www.jesuspets.com/)

I am a Christian. I have been researching the end of the world lately. I have seen a lot of stuff out there on the Rapture, but I don't know what to think. The Bible never uses the word Rapture. I would be very grateful for arguements for and against the Rapture that I could include in a report I am writing for my pastor.

Well, I'm not a subscriber to the belief because it seems antithetical to Jesus' stated beliefs about what His followers should be like, as well as antithetical to examples like that of Stephen in Acts of the Apostles. Generally speaking, how is a Christian to behave? Well, essentially Christlike: he is supposed to treat all people as his brother and love God with all his heart. Well, when you say things like "love all people as your brother", I generally infer that I am supposed to fight for them, bleed for them, die for them, because I would fight, bleed, and die for my brother, much as what Jesus is supposed to have done for us. The whole idea of the Rapture, however, suggests the exact opposite: at the moment when mankind goes through its worst times is precisely when the most Christlike people are supposed to disappear and get a "Get-Out-Of-Suffering-Free" card. The two ideas therefore seem somewhat incongruous.

OHhh! I got one! The rapure will take place on: June 6, 2006 or 6/6/6 or 666, the number of the beast.

So, it's agreed. The scavenging party will double as my Birthday party.

Ah, that's good to know. I suppose this puts to bed any leftover debate about creationism then. It's not actually real, it's just "symbology", right?

Of course, the question then has to be asked.. if you have to look at the Old Testament as the product of its times, what makes the New Testaments any different?

And if the New Testaments are no different, we come back again to the original topic of the thread... look at the Rapture as "symbology" and a product of its times, nothing more.

Personally, I do think the Rapture is symbology.

As for creationism, no where in the Bible does it say that we looked exactly like this when we were created, nor does it say the earth was created in 7 days. And in fact Biblical accounts of creation are being more and more supported by scientific evidence. At the same time, the Bible is not a scientific manual or history of the world. It is a book intended to bring people closer to the Divine.

The Bible is not wholly symbology, nor is it wholly a literal history. Some books, such as Exodus and the life of Jesus, I believe do document accual events. While other books, like Revelations, and the two books of Genisis, are largly symbology, or some mix of the two.

As I said, the Bible is not a scientific history of the world, it is a tool to bring the human mind closer the that which in incomprehendible, and inexpressible in plain literal language. That is why you can have two seemingly mutually exclusive creation stories, one right after the other. The point is to push the human mind beyond the rational, to understanding of Divine Truth.

As for creationism, no where in the Bible does it say that we looked exactly like this when we were created, nor does it say the earth was created in 7 days. And in fact Biblical accounts of creation are being more and more supported by scientific evidence. At the same time, the Bible is not a scientific manual or history of the world. It is a book intended to bring people closer to the Divine.

The Bible is not wholly symbology, nor is it wholly a literal history. Some books, such as Exodus and the life of Jesus, I believe do document accual events. While other books, like Revelations, and the two books of Genisis, are largly symbology, or some mix of the two.

As I said, the Bible is not a scientific history of the world, it is a tool to bring the human mind closer the that which in incomprehendible, and inexpressible in plain literal language. That is why you can have two seemingly mutually exclusive creation stories, one right after the other. The point is to push the human mind beyond the rational, to understanding of Divine Truth.

I have to wonder in what way the bibical account of creation is in any way anything other than thoroughly discredited. Also, you are mistaken if you believe Exodus documents an actual event. There is no archaeological evidence that the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians and quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.

I personally hope it does happen, just so I can freely take the cars with those stoopid bumper stickers that say "in case of rapture, this vehicle will be unoccupied," and set them on fire.

My favorite joke on this type of subject was told by Bill Hicks.

"So, you htink the world is only 12,000 years old? Then I have a question for you. It's a one word quesiton. Dinosaurs? Why didn't someone bring up donisaurs in the enitre f***ing book? You'd think someone would have.

"And Jesus and the disciples walked down the path towards Nazereth, but oh the trail was blocked by a giant Brontosaurus! A Brontosaurus with a splinter in his paw. And the disciples did run a'screamin' 'what a big f***ing lizard, lord!'

'I'm sure gonna mention this in my book!' said Luke.

'Well I'm sure gonna meniton it in my book!" sain Matthew

'I'm not sure what I saw!' said Thomas.

Timothy nudged him.

'It was a big f****ing lizard, Thomas!'

But, Jesus was unafraid. And, he took the splinter from the Brontosaurus' paw, and the Brontosaurus became his friend! And, Jesus sent him to Scotland, where he lived in a loch oh so many years, attracting fat American families with the fat f****ing dollars to look for the Loch Ness Monster. And oh the Scots did praise the lord.

'Thank you lord! Thank you lord.'..."

The whole idea that god put fossils on the earth to "test our faith" is soooo amazingly ridiculous!

Doesn't it bother anyone of the christian faith that there are those among you that believe that god himself might be screwing with our heads??

That he might be running around burrying fossils, saying...

"Heh! We'll see who believes in me now!;) "

snip

I agree with the joke's points, but it was horribly done and not at all funny.

I have to wonder in what way the bibical account of creation is in any way anything other than thoroughly discredited. Also, you are mistaken if you believe Exodus documents an actual event. There is no archaeological evidence that the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians and quite a bit of evidence to the contrary.

Acuuly, all of humanity has been traced to one common female ancestor, and scientists expect to find a common male ancestor in the near future. Also, Genesis's order of creation is remarkable similar to what scientific evidence tells us. Of course, the Bible also doesn't say 7 days, it uses a Hebrew word that means "a length of time of no specific amount". So the Bible only says that earth was created in 7 "segements."

The whole idea that god put fossils on the earth to "test our faith" is soooo amazingly ridiculous!

Doesn't it bother anyone of the christian faith that there are those among you that believe that god himself might be screwing with our heads??

That he might be running around burrying fossils, saying...

"Heh! We'll see who believes in me now!;) "

That's rediculus. Have you ever met someone who accully believes that? Because I sure haven't.

That's rediculus. Have you ever met someone who accully believes that? Because I sure haven't.

Sadly, yes. :( And people wonder why I have no hope for humanity.

Well, I'm not a subscriber to the belief because it seems antithetical to Jesus' stated beliefs about what His followers should be like, as well as antithetical to examples like that of Stephen in Acts of the Apostles. Generally speaking, how is a Christian to behave? Well, essentially Christlike: he is supposed to treat all people as his brother and love God with all his heart. Well, when you say things like "love all people as your brother", I generally infer that I am supposed to fight for them, bleed for them, die for them, because I would fight, bleed, and die for my brother, much as what Jesus is supposed to have done for us. The whole idea of the Rapture, however, suggests the exact opposite: at the moment when mankind goes through its worst times is precisely when the most Christlike people are supposed to disappear and get a "Get-Out-Of-Suffering-Free" card. The two ideas therefore seem somewhat incongruous.
That makes sense. I tend to agree with you. We were promised suffering, not an easy life.

Acuuly, all of humanity has been traced to one common female ancestor, and scientists expect to find a common male ancestor in the near future.

Actually, scientists have proven Aryans to be the superior breed of humans. :rolleyes:

Actually, scientists have proven Aryans to be the superior breed of humans. :rolleyes:
Says who? (the Nazis or the KKK)

Says who? (the Nazis or the KKK)

Exactly those guys with exactly the same amount of scientific evidence.
Blame my lazyness, but I can´t be bothered to find a link to that book shooting down this 'Eve'-nonsense quite nicely.
Use this (http://www.google.com) instead.

My favorite joke on this type of subject was told by Bill Hicks.

"So, you htink the world is only 12,000 years old? Then I have a question for you. It's a one word quesiton. Dinosaurs? Why didn't someone bring up donisaurs in the enitre f***ing book? You'd think someone would have.

"And Jesus and the disciples walked down the path towards Nazereth, but oh the trail was blocked by a giant Brontosaurus! A Brontosaurus with a splinter in his paw. And the disciples did run a'screamin' 'what a big f***ing lizard, lord!'

'I'm sure gonna mention this in my book!' said Luke.

'Well I'm sure gonna meniton it in my book!" sain Matthew

'I'm not sure what I saw!' said Thomas.

Timothy nudged him.

'It was a big f****ing lizard, Thomas!'

But, Jesus was unafraid. And, he took the splinter from the Brontosaurus' paw, and the Brontosaurus became his friend! And, Jesus sent him to Scotland, where he lived in a loch oh so many years, attracting fat American families with the fat f****ing dollars to look for the Loch Ness Monster. And oh the Scots did praise the lord.

'Thank you lord! Thank you lord.'..."

The whole idea that god put fossils on the earth to "test our faith" is soooo amazingly ridiculous!

Doesn't it bother anyone of the christian faith that there are those among you that believe that god himself might be screwing with our heads??

That he might be running around burrying fossils, saying...

"Heh! We'll see who believes in me now!;) "
I personally believe that dinosaurs may have existed. I don't think that God tries to 'screwe with our heads'. Christians disagree on how old the Earth is. When the story of creation was told in Gensis, we didn't get many details. The word used for day is 'yohm'. This can be used to say "back in the day", which would be referring to an age. A Christian can even believe in evolution (I personally don't, though I do not think that the use of the word yohm was an accident), the only thing a Christian need believe is that however it happened, God was in control.

Exactly those guys with exactly the same amount of scientific evidence.
Blame my lazyness, but I can´t be bothered to find a link to that book shooting down this 'Eve'-nonsense quite nicely.
Use this (http://www.google.com) instead.
Any one can post something on the internet, give me a creditable site that you found. I really do not feel like researching this. Please give me a link other than Google.

Does any one have Biblical evidence for the Rapture? Any against?

Would this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve) be acceptable as a starter?
This might be harsh on someone believing in the Rapture, but: Do your own research ;)

Would this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve) be acceptable as a starter?
This might be harsh on someone believing in the Rapture, but: Do your own research ;)
For a start, yes.

Actually, scientists have proven Aryans to be the superior breed of humans. :rolleyes:

Mine was a legitimate post of a real scientific theory. I'd apreciate a little respect. If you disagree with me, don't make a nazi refrence and roll your eyes as if that makes your right, prove me wrong with legitimate scources.

Exactly those guys with exactly the same amount of scientific evidence.

Bullshit. Now you're just spouting nonscence.

As I said, give me legitimate sources. Flinging insults is just juvinile.

I just read the Wiki article, very informative. Now wasn't that much more effective then insults and sarcasm?

there will be no sin in heaven.
Then what's the point of being there?
Where's the fun? If you can't sin, what can you do?

I am a Christian. I have been researching the end of the world lately. I have seen a lot of stuff out there on the Rapture, but I don't know what to think. The Bible never uses the word Rapture. I would be very grateful for arguements for and against the Rapture that I could include in a report I am writing for my pastor.
The Bible is also missing a massive chunk of the life of Jesus. The Bible was also edited to NOT include the story of Lilith. The Bible was written anywhere between 30 and 200 years after Jesus supposedly lived, yet people somehow don't think that human nature didn't embelish the events that actually transpired between when they did transpire and when they were recorded. Jesus (the one the Bible makes a big stink about) still has yet to be proven as ever having existed at all.

The Bible and its contents have been used the world over, for hundreds of years, to control, manipulate, punish and torture; abolish people and other belief systems that were never proven better or worse than the belief system in the Bible; destroy and/or integrate into oblivion entire civilizations; and suck dry the savings of tens of thousands of elderly people world wide, and that's just for starters.

And now people are thinking of a "Rapture?" Unless I'm mistaken, that's another term that was created a very long time after Jesus was supposed to have lived.

If you want to write a paper on the Bible, write one entitled, "The Massive Decay of Common Sense and Individualism as Brought About by the Usage of the Writings of the Bible"

:cool:

The Bible is also missing a massive chunk of the life of Jesus. The Bible was also edited to NOT include the story of Lilith. The Bible was written anywhere between 30 and 200 years after Jesus supposedly lived, yet people somehow don't think that human nature didn't embelish the events that actually transpired between when they did transpire and when they were recorded. Jesus (the one the Bible makes a big stink about) still has yet to be proven as ever having existed at all.

The Bible and its contents have been used the world over, for hundreds of years, to control, manipulate, punish and torture; abolish people and other belief systems that were never proven better or worse than the belief system in the Bible; destroy and/or integrate into oblivion entire civilizations; and suck dry the savings of tens of thousands of elderly people world wide, and that's just for starters.

And now people are thinking of a "Rapture?" Unless I'm mistaken, that's another term that was created a very long time after Jesus was supposed to have lived.

If you want to write a paper on the Bible, write one entitled, "The Massive Decay of Common Sense and Individualism as Brought About by the Usage of the Writings of the Bible"

:cool:

What ignorance and anger.

I am a Christian. I have been researching the end of the world lately. I have seen a lot of stuff out there on the Rapture, but I don't know what to think. The Bible never uses the word Rapture. I would be very grateful for arguements for and against the Rapture that I could include in a report I am writing for my pastor.


i think it is in the book of revelations...


i reveal i dont care much..god is gonna want to party with me..so i'm good...you?

What ignorance and anger.
How so? I thought it was an accurate description. :)

The Bible is also missing a massive chunk of the life of Jesus. The Bible was also edited to NOT include the story of Lilith. The Bible was written anywhere between 30 and 200 years after Jesus supposedly lived, yet people somehow don't think that human nature didn't embelish the events that actually transpired between when they did transpire and when they were recorded. Jesus (the one the Bible makes a big stink about) still has yet to be proven as ever having existed at all.

The Bible and its contents have been used the world over, for hundreds of years, to control, manipulate, punish and torture; abolish people and other belief systems that were never proven better or worse than the belief system in the Bible; destroy and/or integrate into oblivion entire civilizations; and suck dry the savings of tens of thousands of elderly people world wide, and that's just for starters.

And now people are thinking of a "Rapture?" Unless I'm mistaken, that's another term that was created a very long time after Jesus was supposed to have lived.

If you want to write a paper on the Bible, write one entitled, "The Massive Decay of Common Sense and Individualism as Brought About by the Usage of the Writings of the Bible"

:cool:

...umm, actually you are mistaken. The term rapture comes from the greek raptuese (forgive the spelling). The concept of the rapture, getting "caught up" is found in 1st Thessalonians (4:17) among others.
It's also amazing that the Bible is totally consistant, despite the fact that it was written by dozens of people over hundreds of years. All four gospels were written between 30 and 75 years after Christ's death, and are consistant. Additionally, using criteria used by historians to gauge the acuracy of ancient documents, the New Testament is the most reliable ancient document we have. Oh, BTW, Christ's life and crucifiction has been "proven". Four independant books were written about his life, death and resurrection, as well as Roman accounts.
Jesus said that He was the truth. Without truth, all you're left with is lies and deception.

How so? I thought it was an accurate description. :)

I have to agree.

I just read the Wiki article, very informative. Now wasn't that much more effective then insults and sarcasm?

No

I prefer insults and sarcasm.

...umm, actually you are mistaken. The term rapture comes from the greek raptuese (forgive the spelling). The concept of the rapture, getting "caught up" is found in 1st Thessalonians (4:17) among others.
It's also amazing that the Bible is totally consistant, despite the fact that it was written by dozens of people over hundreds of years. All four gospels were written between 30 and 75 years after Christ's death, and are consistant. Additionally, using criteria used by historians to gauge the acuracy of ancient documents, the New Testament is the most reliable ancient document we have. Oh, BTW, Christ's life and crucifiction has been "proven". Four independant books were written about his life, death and resurrection, as well as Roman accounts.
Jesus said that He was the truth. Without truth, all you're left with is lies and deception.
Nice try, but the truth is that the four accounts that were accepted as scripture are consistant. That's not the same thing as saying all accounts are consistant. Or don't you know the history of the Bible? How the New testament was created, edited out of the variuous texts? Of course it's consistant. Good editing accounted for that.

And I think what Artesianaria was refering to and what you seem to be misinformed about is the actual absence of Roman records to corraborate the various gospels.

What ignorance and anger.
Care to back that up. I've read about everything I mentioned, as has most of the world in one form or another, which kills your comment of ignorance, and I was far from angry when I typed that out. So what do you have to the contrary?

...umm, actually you are mistaken. The term rapture comes from the greek raptuese (forgive the spelling). The concept of the rapture, getting "caught up" is found in 1st Thessalonians (4:17) among others.
It's also amazing that the Bible is totally consistant, despite the fact that it was written by dozens of people over hundreds of years. All four gospels were written between 30 and 75 years after Christ's death, and are consistant. Additionally, using criteria used by historians to gauge the acuracy of ancient documents, the New Testament is the most reliable ancient document we have. Oh, BTW, Christ's life and crucifiction has been "proven". Four independant books were written about his life, death and resurrection, as well as Roman accounts.
Jesus said that He was the truth. Without truth, all you're left with is lies and deception.
How do you figure the Bible is accurate when its been edited and even censored? How do you know that absolutely, positively NO ONE embeleshed anything? How common was the name Jesus in that time? Did the Romans crucify more than one, or has anyone bothered to check? What are the books you're referencing and what connections to religion did their authors have?

:cool:

Mine was a legitimate post of a real scientific theory. I'd apreciate a little respect. If you disagree with me, don't make a nazi refrence and roll your eyes as if that makes your right, prove me wrong with legitimate scources.



Bullshit. Now you're just spouting nonscence.

As I said, give me legitimate sources. Flinging insults is just juvinile.

Well, I made nazi reference not because I think you are one, but rather because there have been scientists actually 'proving', by deliberate misunderstanding and falsifying data, that Aryans are superior - thus supporting their ideology.
I see a parallel when scientists deliberately misunderstand or ignore data to come to a conclusion supporting their ideology - in this case a creationistical point of view.
I did not mean to insult you personally, but I admit I do not care whether I insult said 'scientists' and their believers or not.
Besides: You are not willing to accept what someone says on a Internet forum as a basis for discussion, but this changes when a webpage supports his view? Interesting.

I am a Christian. I have been researching the end of the world lately. I have seen a lot of stuff out there on the Rapture, but I don't know what to think. The Bible never uses the word Rapture. I would be very grateful for arguements for and against the Rapture that I could include in a report I am writing for my pastor.

The "Rapture" as a sigular event espoused in many forms of media, is particular to Premillenialism (Whether pre- post- or mid-tribulational, depending on the dispensationalist element within the particular eschatology). Surprisingly (at least viewed apart from representation in the media in general) most Christians are not premillenial, but are rather Postmillenial or Amillenial which views the Rapture in a much different light (both in fact teaching some form of Kingdom Now theology, where either [as in preterism] all events have already passed, or partially [as in Amillenialism] where we exist now in the "Kingdom" and the events are allegorial)... Postmillenialism is partially represented in the various Reformed Churches, while Amillenialism is pretty rampant in Reformed, Primitive and Reformed Baptist, Lutheran and Catholic circles as well as some representation within the Orthodox (though the Orthodox Church has never established much Eschatological elements in their beliefs).

Rapture, as represented in "Left Behind" is pretty exclusive to Conservative Evangelical Christianity alone, represented in the Various Modern Baptist (SBC for example) circles, Evangelical Baptists and Pentecostals.

I for one am Amillenial...