NationStates Jolt Archive

I've had to fly a bit over the last five years and each trip to the airport has become more and more of a thing to be dreaded. We, in Atlanta, don't have the most convenient airport in which to provide security. There is only a single point in for all the gates, in all the terminals. So we get some pretty long lines. And we get some pretty rude TSA clerks, too.

I really pity those mothers that travel with their children. The kids must be terrified of all the adults yelling and throwing stuff into bins. We used to fly with our kids all the time when they were small. Now, I think I'd prefer to avoid the trip, if the only means of transportation was by air. That'd be sad for all of us. We enjoyed visiting family that lived farther than a days drive away.

But back to the clerks at the airport, while I have a clear idea about what I want to say. Does anyone believe that security has improved at airports in the last five years? We've quit making jokes about the way they search little old men and women, not because they've quit, but because it isn't funny anymore.

On the unfortunate occaisions when I am singled out for special searches, I see the clerks going through my things in a very bored manner. Things that should interest them, and I carry plenty of odd electronic parts on most trips, don't even get a second glance. It's as if they know the whole thing is pointless, as well.

I thought the goal was to professionalize the airport screeners by federalizing them. That was the mantra of Tom Daschle, anyway. All I've seen is that we have replaced the sleepy, bored privately employed screeners that couldn't get through high school with sleepy, bored federally employed screeners that couldn't make it through high school.

One would expect that federalization would at least mean that there would be a consistent set of procedures in place across the country. That's a pipe dream if I ever saw one. In Atlanta, I can go through the metal detectors with my shoes on. In El Paso, I must remove the shoes. In Seattle, nothing may be in the bin with my computer, but in San Diego, it doesn't matter. Do I show my boarding pass when I go through the screening station? In Los Angeles, no. In Atlanta, I've been selected for special screening because I had put the boarding pass in my pocket while undressing at the screening station.

I don't really know how to conclude this, except to observe that we will always rely on air travel in the U.S. Somewhere along the line the mission of the TSA has ceased to be securing the airports and has become more focused on the ritual abuse of passengers.

I'll repeat my question. Does anyone think that the TSA has made airline travel safer that it was before 9/11?

Anytime I’ve flown with my kids (toting carry on bags, car seats, and wrangling both of them through the metal detector) I’ve never had a problem – I think they just want to get you the hell out of there and deal with someone less complicated.

Flying alone on business is when I get the full work up. That’s really irritating, because I seem to be an easy target for their “gotta search at least x number of people per day” quota. Plus, I’m usually traveling with a good deal of a/v stuff. I usually send through a handful of those stupid little bins between my laptop, a jacket, my purse, my shoes, video camera, digital still camera (and can I put my shoes and purse in the same bin? some places, yes, some no.) You have to be a magician to get it all into a single carry on bag, and then you’ve got to repack it on the other side so they let you on the damn plane.

Safer? No. It’s a big illusion to make us think that it’s rigorous, but in the meantime only one out of 20 containers gets inspected at our ports. I suspect that the bad guys have moved onto another strategy.

Airline/Airport security has always been a hoax. If you are intent on getting somthing bad through, you can. If you just want to fly to Grandma's house, you had best arrive at the airport wearing only your pajamas and carrying a tube of lube. :headbang:

Did you not know the evil gray aliens faked the whole thing. But, I have gone through airport security and I found it to be intrusive and most of what they did seemed unnecessary. Why must they remove the shoes of a 90 year old Grandmother but let the 25 year old Muslim women breeze through. I actually saw that on my last flight. They seem to be screening on political correctness and not realy looking for their real targets. This is why for most of my travel I take the train. With Amtrack I do not have to worry about rude secuirty, long lines for check in and all the airport hassels.

I don't fly often, but I agree that the TSA at least feels like a joke. I will say that I think it's marginally safer than the old system run by the airlines themselves, but only marginally, and certainly not secure enough. Part of the problem is that we have a terribly short institutional memory as a nation--few people minded stricter security in December 2001, but by July 2002, the airlines were trying to find ways around the security requirements for their big spender customers who didn't want to stand with the sweaty masses. Another part of the problem, I think, is that we did the federal part of it half-assed (which should be no surprise, no matter who was in charge). If the TSA had gone to the trouble to actually train their security people in depth, we might have a better system--but that takes time and money and a willingness to piss people off, and we had none of that. We wanted immediate results, but immediate generally results in slipshod, and that's what we wound up with.

Did you not know the evil gray aliens faked the whole thing. But, I have gone through airport security and I found it to be intrusive and most of what they did seemed unnecessary. Why must they remove the shoes of a 90 year old Grandmother but let the 25 year old Muslim women breeze through. I actually saw that on my last flight. They seem to be screening on political correctness and not realy looking for their real targets. This is why for most of my travel I take the train. With Amtrack I do not have to worry about rude secuirty, long lines for check in and all the airport hassels.

Except you do have to worry about the worryingly frequent derailments.

Except you do have to worry about the worryingly frequent derailments.
It never happens in Poland...

Why don't you guys go to your own thread and stop hijacking this one? You can discuss conspiracies to your heart's content.

It never happens in Poland...

That's kind of the point. With AMTRACK you have to worry about derailments.

Why don't you guys go to your own thread and stop hijacking this one? You can discuss conspiracies to your heart's content.

I'm somewhat suprised you don't think 9/11 was a government conspiracy.

I don't think airport security is a fraud. It didn't start out that way, anyway. More of an ill-advised, knee-jerk response to the paranoid post-9/11 masses.

I do think it's a giant pain in the backside. Although for the record, I believe CDG is much worse on that score than any airport in the US.

True there is that annoying derailment thing but all forms of travel have their risks. The train is not as fast and their being on time can be a joke. For the most part, I find it to be more civilized then air travel. You are not squeezed into tiny seats for your 2.5 hour flight. I would much rather spend 7 hours on a train with wide seats and a club car.

True there is that annoying derailment thing but all forms of travel have their risks. The train is not as fast and their being on time can be a joke. For the most part, I find it to be more civilized then air travel. You are not squeezed into tiny seats for your 2.5 hour flight. I would much rather spend 7 hours on a train with wide seats and a club car.
train is fast in france.

Planes are faster everywhere.

train is fast in France.

It still isn't that fast. It still takes 2.5 hours to go from Paris to Rennes.

People, please ignore the troll. He doesn't actually believe that and he's just wrapping you guys around the axle. Either that or they need to up his meds. Either way, you're not going to accomplish anything.

To the topic, I agree that security hasn't really improved. It's only become more annoying. The changes they made were not to make us safer but to make us FEEL like they are doing something so that airline travel in this country would go back to pre-9/11.

Personally, I think the best use of our security money is armed air marshals and a locked cockpit with security measures that prevent terrorists from gaining control of the plane included a semi-automatic pistol in the cockpit.

They aren't going to get on the plane with a gun and the sniffers are pretty good about chemicals (I know I get searched everytime I come from doing work in a hospital because of the nitro). Many companies are currently testing nuclear detectors, including my own. It's only a matter of time before the only real danger is from the type of control exerted during 9/11. An air marshall and a good cockpit with an armament solves this problem.

Planes are faster everywhere.
but have anoying evil security people there.

I went to Israel a few months back and the attitude is completely different at the airport. First, my colleague and I went to the ticket counter and did the paperwork that they needed. But while we were standing in line, a fellow came up to me an started asking about my trip.

I've been to enough countries to know that someone always interviews you on the way out. In India and Pakistan, it's usually a uniformed soldier that asks "What was the purpose of your visit?". It always seems odd that they focus on the people leaving because they pay absolutely no attention to those arriving passengers.

Anyhow this fellow comes up and starts asking about my trip. "What was the purpose of your visit?" "Business", I say. "Who did you meet with?", he asks. "I was working for the Government of Israel", I reply. And it went on and on, each time he asked a question, I'd let a little more information go. Then he left. I went to the ticket counter and got my boarding pass. Now, it was time to stand in line to be screened.

I didn't have to undress. My computer was fine in the briefcase. And my boarding pass was in my pocket, along with my passport. My carry-on and briefcase went through the x-ray machine, but before I could go through the metal detector and catch up with it, another Israeli came up to me and started asking questions.

"Just a minute", I said. "I need to get my baggage". "No, it will be okay", she replied. Then we repeated the little dance that I had done earlier with the other fellow. He eventually came up to us and joined in the questioning. Finally, they decided I wasn't a threat and let me go.

Maybe my answers were too evasive? I don't know, but I definitely felt tested by these two. The fact that we have X-ray machines and metal detectors in our airports may make it easier to find an obvious piece of contraband, like a 6 inch screwdriver or a pair of scissors, but the people in our TSA aren't trained nearly well enough to recognize a suspicous person. We could learn a lot from countries and airlines that have dealt with terrorism for a while, but I'm afraid that the "not invented here" syndrome infects the TSA, too.

I've had to fly a bit over the last five years and each trip to the airport has become more and more of a thing to be dreaded. We, in Atlanta, don't have the most convenient airport in which to provide security. There is only a single point in for all the gates, in all the terminals. So we get some pretty long lines. And we get some pretty rude TSA clerks, too.

I really pity those mothers that travel with their children. The kids must be terrified of all the adults yelling and throwing stuff into bins. We used to fly with our kids all the time when they were small. Now, I think I'd prefer to avoid the trip, if the only means of transportation was by air. That'd be sad for all of us. We enjoyed visiting family that lived farther than a days drive away.

But back to the clerks at the airport, while I have a clear idea about what I want to say. Does anyone believe that security has improved at airports in the last five years? We've quit making jokes about the way they search little old men and women, not because they've quit, but because it isn't funny anymore.

On the unfortunate occaisions when I am singled out for special searches, I see the clerks going through my things in a very bored manner. Things that should interest them, and I carry plenty of odd electronic parts on most trips, don't even get a second glance. It's as if they know the whole thing is pointless, as well.

I thought the goal was to professionalize the airport screeners by federalizing them. That was the mantra of Tom Daschle, anyway. All I've seen is that we have replaced the sleepy, bored privately employed screeners that couldn't get through high school with sleepy, bored federally employed screeners that couldn't make it through high school.

One would expect that federalization would at least mean that there would be a consistent set of procedures in place across the country. That's a pipe dream if I ever saw one. In Atlanta, I can go through the metal detectors with my shoes on. In El Paso, I must remove the shoes. In Seattle, nothing may be in the bin with my computer, but in San Diego, it doesn't matter. Do I show my boarding pass when I go through the screening station? In Los Angeles, no. In Atlanta, I've been selected for special screening because I had put the boarding pass in my pocket while undressing at the screening station.

I don't really know how to conclude this, except to observe that we will always rely on air travel in the U.S. Somewhere along the line the mission of the TSA has ceased to be securing the airports and has become more focused on the ritual abuse of passengers.

I'll repeat my question. Does anyone think that the TSA has made airline travel safer that it was before 9/11?

By the way, as another frequent traveler, I'd like to back up your stories. I've had similar experiences at all those airports. I'd also like to add that if you want to get past security one could just go to a little airport to get in. I've been to little airports that practically just wave you through to the plane, particularly if they are holding the plane for you. It would be scary easy to get on a plane in one of those airports with contraband.

but have anoying evil security people there.

Thats what us grownups call trade offs. You can have the speed of a plane, or the conveniece of rail. Life can be funny that way.

Depending on the distance, trains are actually better. Going from NYC to Washington, DC is actually easier by train and about the same tme.

I went to Israel a few months back and the attitude is completely different at the airport. First, my colleague and I went to the ticket counter and did the paperwork that they needed. But while we were standing in line, a fellow came up to me an started asking about my trip.

I've been to enough countries to know that someone always interviews you on the way out. In India and Pakistan, it's usually a uniformed soldier that asks "What was the purpose of your visit?". It always seems odd that they focus on the people leaving because they pay absolutely no attention to those arriving passengers.

Anyhow this fellow comes up and starts asking about my trip. "What was the purpose of your visit?" "Business", I say. "Who did you meet with?", he asks. "I was working for the Government of Israel", I reply. And it went on and on, each time he asked a question, I'd let a little more information go. Then he left. I went to the ticket counter and got my boarding pass. Now, it was time to stand in line to be screened.

I didn't have to undress. My computer was fine in the briefcase. And my boarding pass was in my pocket, along with my passport. My carry-on and briefcase went through the x-ray machine, but before I could go through the metal detector and catch up with it, another Israeli came up to me and started asking questions.

"Just a minute", I said. "I need to get my baggage". "No, it will be okay", she replied. Then we repeated the little dance that I had done earlier with the other fellow. He eventually came up to us and joined in the questioning. Finally, they decided I wasn't a threat and let me go.

Maybe my answers were too evasive? I don't know, but I definitely felt tested by these two. The fact that we have X-ray machines and metal detectors in our airports may make it easier to find an obvious piece of contraband, like a 6 inch screwdriver or a pair of scissors, but the people in our TSA aren't trained nearly well enough to recognize a suspicous person. We could learn a lot from countries and airlines that have dealt with terrorism for a while, but I'm afraid that the "not invented here" syndrome infects the TSA, too.


Also, kep in mind, Israel has one international airport and isn't nearly as sensitive as we are about racial profiling in El Al.

I was searched twice. I had to go through airport security four-five times. I was unknowingly carrying a lighter in the front pocket of my bag.

They never found it and I found it a week later to my surprise.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/increased_security.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/GermanNightmare/increased_security.jpg
:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:) :) :)

Actually Im saying that there were no airplanes involved in the attack. Got a problem with that?
Only that you are providing imperical basis for Pollack jokes... :rolleyes:

I was searched twice. I had to go through airport security four-five times. I was unknowingly carrying a lighter in the front pocket of my bag. They never found it and I found it a week later to my surprise.

As someone who (before 9/11) tested airport security for the FAA, I can categorically say that a savvy person can get almost anything through. Yes, it is a bit harder now, but not significantly.

I have passed through security - even after 9/11 - with bladed implements and a variety of "undetectable" toys secreted on my person.

Before 9/11 I tested a couple of West Coast Int'l airports and went through carry-on (these items were supposed to be found by security, but weren't) with metal push daggers, IED components, a derringer-type handgun, and other assorted fun. I was harrassed to death about a clear plastic drink bottle - and forced to drink from it to prove it wasn't full of "white gas"... of course, these were the same morons who ignored the push-dagger in the shoulder strap of the camera in my carry-on... :rolleyes:

By the way, as another frequent traveler, I'd like to back up your stories. I've had similar experiences at all those airports. I'd also like to add that if you want to get past security one could just go to a little airport to get in. I've been to little airports that practically just wave you through to the plane, particularly if they are holding the plane for you. It would be scary easy to get on a plane in one of those airports with contraband.
That just goes to show that there is even less standardization that I thought. I fly in and out of El Paso a lot. That airport is so small that they close the security checkpoint when there are no flights departing. But when it's open, it's rougher than Atlanta or Los Angeles to get through. It may be the immigration thing.

I'm somewhat suprised you don't think 9/11 was a government conspiracy.
Why? Do I seem prone to following conspiracy theories? I feel a bit insulted.

Well my experience is very limited, juts the odd flights from glasgow/prestwick to the canaries or the south of england and all post 9/11. generally thigns go fairly easily before you get on the plane, occasionally you get patted down, but msot of the time they are quite freindly about it.
I have had one weird experince: On the way home from dorset, after an airshow my GF got here back searched because they thought a diecast F-15 i had bought her looked like a gun, what they didn't pick up on was the packet of replica bullets i had forgotten about at the bottom of my bag (yes i know they are replicas, but if they bin water psitols why let my bullets past?).

The msot actualy trouble i have had was comming back from from teneriffe and thats mainly a HM customs and excise anti booze/drugs exercise.

Of course the TSA is a joke. It's a typical federal goverment agency: the mentally subnormal, supervised by disinterested idiots.

The only difference between the TSA and the rent-a-cop security is that you could fire the rent-a-cops. TSA workers get 'career' status after a year.

Also, now that they are government, stories about the incompetence will be hushed up more.

It's besides the point anway. People have made it quite clear that suspected terrorists shouldn't be searched.

You want to discuss 9/11 conspiracy theories? Make another thread. This one is for Airport Security.

You want to discuss 9/11 conspiracy theories? Make another thread. This one is for Airport Security.
Awww, Kat...

Isn't airport security all about hijacking? *ducks* :p

I went through JFK a couple of years ago, and the security barely glanced at our faces and passports. They just waved us through.

The white guys, that is. Everyone of darker complexion, even if oriental, was taken away and interrogated for two hours. And I do mean everyone. The funny thing is, we had a large party of people travelling on a group ticket, and they didn't even ask the whites among us any questions about the others. Like, it's a group ticket FFS! What, you think we're unknowingly sheltering terrorists? :rolleyes:

The profiling thing sucks, I certainly have never seen anything like it in Europe, and I doubt it works anyway, as it is highly unlikely terrorists would be travelling on a group ticket with a bunch of white students. Especially when their origin was Singapore and such.

On the way out of the US, there was no security to be seen at all. Bags got x-rayed without comment, and that was it, go to the lounge with your boarding passes and wait.

Essentially I doubt the airport security in the US knows what it's doing. It certainly does not look any more effective than anywhere else, and if you're of non-European appearance, it is a hell of a lot more annoying.

I went through JFK a couple of years ago, and the security barely glanced at our faces and passports. They just waved us through.

The white guys, that is. Everyone of darker complexion, even if oriental, was taken away and interrogated for two hours. And I do mean everyone. The funny thing is, we had a large party of people travelling on a group ticket, and they didn't even ask the whites among us any questions about the others. Like, it's a group ticket FFS! What, you think we're unknowingly sheltering terrorists? :rolleyes:

The profiling thing sucks, I certainly have never seen anything like it in Europe, and I doubt it works anyway, as it is highly unlikely terrorists would be travelling on a group ticket with a bunch of white students. Especially when their origin was Singapore and such.

On the way out of the US, there was no security to be seen at all. Bags got x-rayed without comment, and that was it, go to the lounge with your boarding passes and wait.

Essentially I doubt the airport security in the US knows what it's doing. It certainly does not look any more effective than anywhere else, and if you're of non-European appearance, it is a hell of a lot more annoying.


I fly out of JFK between 4-5 times a year, and have done so for the past ten years. I've never seen the type of profiling you are talking about. (Of course most of the screeners are non-white).

They are incompetant though.

I'll put it this way.

It's illegal to rob banks for large amounts of money, but it looks like someone managed to do so in Britain. Despite the safeguards that are in place.

If someone is willing to study the problem of getting around any level of security, it is possible to get around it.

Imagine, if you will, a group of 60 people chartering a jet.

Sure, they're unarmed when they get on the plane. But there isn't anyone in the main cabin - other than the crew - who is going to try to stop them from knocking in the door to the cockpit.

And the passengers in this case would outnumber the crew by a wide margin. It's highly unlikely that the passengers would include a sky marshal - and if one was put aboard, the passengers would know that it was not one of them.

If the marshal didn't have any prior knowledge of the plan, it's likely that the marshal, however well armed, would be rendered ineffective.

I fly out of JFK between 4-5 times a year, and have done so for the past ten years. I've never seen the type of profiling you are talking about. (Of course most of the screeners are non-white).

They are incompetant though.
Strange, we had Irish-American stereotypes, complete with fireman/porno moustaches. :confused:

Strange, we had Irish-American stereotypes, complete with fireman/porno moustaches. :confused:

Maybe it was because you were on a group ticket, so it was flagged ahead of time and you got 'special' attention from the idiots in charge.

Everytime I fly, I just dump my luggage at check in and go through the maze of pointless checkpoints. Most of the screeners are minorities. Though to be fair, I've never been taken aside and interviewed, so I don't know what happens at that point.

In the future, our luggage will be taken to its destination on a cargo plane, and the passengers will fly naked on another plane.

The passengers will wear a paper gown, much like the one you are given in a hospital, and you'll be chained to your seat for the duration of the flight. People with the perceived inability to hold their bowels for the duration of the flight will be forced to wear diapers (nappies).

My mom doesn't have a dark complexion, nor a name that would flag for ethnicity of interest, yet they check her down to her shoes most times.

My cousin by marriage, however, NEVER gets out of the airport without being checked, and we KNOW it's because of his country of origin and complexion.

So... go figure.

In the future, our luggage will be taken to its destination on a cargo plane, and the passengers will fly naked on another plane.

The passengers will wear a paper gown, much like the one you are given in a hospital, and you'll be chained to your seat for the duration of the flight. People with the perceived inability to hold their bowels for the duration of the flight will be forced to wear diapers (nappies).
There are some people who would pay extra for that.

I'll repeat my question. Does anyone think that the TSA has made airline travel safer that it was before 9/11?

One word : Accountability

Before 911 who could we hold accountable for the penetration of security and the deaths of innocents ? no one really... maybe if you pushed hard enough you could mention one or two private security firms which were hired by the major airlines to conduct their own screenings. Now with Federal employees overseeing them the government has taken on the burden of accountability. While this may or maynot make us safer (im not sure you or any other airline passagner is ready for 100% assurance of security on a flight) we now know where to go when something goes wrong.. instead of having to throw our hands in the air and say "welp thats the way things go".

In the future, our luggage will be taken to its destination on a cargo plane, and the passengers will fly naked on another plane.

The passengers will wear a paper gown, much like the one you are given in a hospital, and you'll be chained to your seat for the duration of the flight. People with the perceived inability to hold their bowels for the duration of the flight will be forced to wear diapers (nappies).

Nah, hull losses from terrorism are negligble compared to other operating costs for major carriers.

They just don't care enough about it do to that.

There are some people who would pay extra for that.

I too pray for that every day. :)

I have a distinctly military appearance, even when in civilian clothes.

I have been thoroughly searched before EVERY flight, and always have to remove my shoes, get my carry-on bag searched by both x-ray and hand, and get that little chemical detection swipe done.

Nearly every time, the people doing the search KNOW that I was prior Army, and we usually chat about duty.

I think the SOP on what and whom to search is a local thing, but they all seem to search the crap out of males that appear capable of being physical.

Guess I am in pretty good shape for 45 years of age, and appear potentially aggressive. That's what they told me when I asked why.

I'm used to it now - it used to piss me off. I suppose that if I was an 86 year old woman with a walker and a colostomy bag, I would be more upset.

Still, I don't think the searching really prevents anything except the stupid people from doing something.

I have a distinctly military appearance, even when in civilian clothes.

I have been thoroughly searched before EVERY flight, and always have to remove my shoes, get my carry-on bag searched by both x-ray and hand, and get that little chemical detection swipe done.

Nearly every time, the people doing the search KNOW that I was prior Army, and we usually chat about duty.

I think the SOP on what and whom to search is a local thing, but they all seem to search the crap out of males that appear capable of being physical.

Guess I am in pretty good shape for 45 years of age, and appear potentially aggressive. That's what they told me when I asked why.

I'm used to it now - it used to piss me off. I suppose that if I was an 86 year old woman with a walker and a colostomy bag, I would be more upset.

Still, I don't think the searching really prevents anything except the stupid people from doing something.I think it also provides some psychological reassurance for the infrequent traveler--I'm not saying that the reassurance is valid or warranted, just that it's there.

Personally, I figure that if I find myself on a flight that's hijacked and flown into another building, it was just my shit luck that day. You're absolutely right that a determined person or group of people won't usually be stopped.

I have a distinctly military appearance, even when in civilian clothes.

I have been thoroughly searched before EVERY flight, and always have to remove my shoes, get my carry-on bag searched by both x-ray and hand, and get that little chemical detection swipe done.

Nearly every time, the people doing the search KNOW that I was prior Army, and we usually chat about duty.

I think the SOP on what and whom to search is a local thing, but they all seem to search the crap out of males that appear capable of being physical.

Guess I am in pretty good shape for 45 years of age, and appear potentially aggressive. That's what they told me when I asked why.

I'm used to it now - it used to piss me off. I suppose that if I was an 86 year old woman with a walker and a colostomy bag, I would be more upset.

Still, I don't think the searching really prevents anything except the stupid people from doing something.

See, I just never see that. Or happening to the people around me. I know that people get searched, but I can't ever recall even seeing the swab. In any country.

I've had my carry on double checked a few times, that's it.

See, I just never see that. Or happening to the people around me. I know that people get searched, but I can't ever recall even seeing the swab. In any country.

I've had my carry on double checked a few times, that's it.
Just about any flight out of Dulles or BWI that I've been on has multiple people (including me) getting the swab.

Just about any flight out of Dulles or BWI that I've been on has multiple people (including me) getting the swab.

I only fly out of JFK/LGA, in the US (Well recently). It's similar at Charles de Gaulle, Thiefrow, newcastle also.

I am flying out of newark on tuesday. (To glasgow - och aye the noo! :rolleyes: )

I wonder if it will be different.

In the future, our luggage will be taken to its destination on a cargo plane, and the passengers will fly naked on another plane.
I think the future is the Random Stripsearch. :eek:

"Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please! This is a Random Stripsearch!"

...

It could happen.

See, I just never see that. Or happening to the people around me. I know that people get searched, but I can't ever recall even seeing the swab. In any country.

I've had my carry on double checked a few times, that's it.
Most domestic flights I'm on get my carryons swabbed.

But then, I've written white papers to the TSA explaining exactly how to get IEDs onto planes dispite the swab - so they hate me.

Most domestic flights I'm on get my carryons swabbed.

But then, I've written white papers to the TSA explaining exactly how to get IEDs onto planes dispite the swab - so they hate me.

I generally get swabbed. I've never not popped after working in a hospital.

I guess what concerns me is that we could learn a lot about how to 'interview' passengers. That would be less stressful on the passengers and screeners, alike. That would also concentrate on the potential criminal, rather than the means to commit the crime. As Syniks has pointed out, and as is reported regularly in the news, contraband makes its way through security every day.

No tolerable system is going to discover 100% of what it is set up to detect, but doesn't a system where _trained_ agents question passengers, instead of searching bags, seem like a better way to go?

No tolerable system is going to discover 100% of what it is set up to detect, but doesn't a system where _trained_ agents question passengers, instead of searching bags, seem like a better way to go?That and guns in the cockpit.

I guess what concerns me is that we could learn a lot about how to 'interview' passengers. That would be less stressful on the passengers and screeners, alike. That would also concentrate on the potential criminal, rather than the means to commit the crime. As Syniks has pointed out, and as is reported regularly in the news, contraband makes its way through security every day.

No tolerable system is going to discover 100% of what it is set up to detect, but doesn't a system where _trained_ agents question passengers, instead of searching bags, seem like a better way to go?

The problem is that a lot of people see this as an unnecessary invasion of privacy, particularly when I can easily just lie. Basically the only people disclosing anything are the ones not lying to the screeners.

The problem is that a lot of people see this as an unnecessary invasion of privacy, particularly when I can easily just lie. Basically the only people disclosing anything are the ones not lying to the screeners.
The agents have to know who is suspicious for this to do any good. The Israelis that badgered me certainly thought that I was worth additional questioning. Not enough to haul me off and interrogate me, but enough to get a second opinion. I was evasive and I did hold back information about where I worked and for what agency. I'm sure that worked against me.

Our current screeners are not up to that task. They can barely search a suitcase, let alone evaluate someone's evasive answers. It's never going to happen, so I'll throw my support behind a well-armed flight crew.

And what does violate one's privacy more? Strip searches, wanding, or baggage searches, or a few intelligently asked questions about where you are going and how your visit to Atlanta has been?

The agents have to know who is suspicious for this to do any good. The Israelis that badgered me certainly thought that I was worth additional questioning. Not enough to haul me off and interrogate me, but enough to get a second opinion. I was evasive and I did hold back information about where I worked and for what agency. I'm sure that worked against me.

Our current screeners are not up to that task. They can barely search a suitcase, let alone evaluate someone's evasive answers. It's never going to happen, so I'll throw my support behind a well-armed flight crew.

And what does violate one's privacy more? Strip searches, wanding, or baggage searches, or a few intelligently asked questions about where you are going and how your visit to Atlanta has been?


You can send someone to classes, but that doesn't mean they'll be good at questioning people.

You have to have experience, and you have to be intelligent, and have some feel for doing it. Otherwise, you're wasting your time.

There are also Israeli methods for picking suspects out of a crowd without asking questions.

You can send someone to classes, but that doesn't mean they'll be good at questioning people.

You have to have experience, and you have to be intelligent, and have some feel for doing it. Otherwise, you're wasting your time.

There are also Israeli methods for picking suspects out of a crowd without asking questions.
There you go. All of the things that our baggage police lack. Training, intelligence, common sense, and experience.

What does it take to stand out in a crowd? The I'm-a-suspect way, that is.

There you go. All of the things that our baggage police lack. Training, intelligence, common sense, and experience.

What does it take to stand out in a crowd? The I'm-a-suspect way, that is.

For starters, men who are in a small group who are trying not to be seen together will constantly look for and at each other. They can't help it. So you can see who is together. If they're avoiding each other, but constantly making eye contact, they're well worth questioning.

People carrying weapons will do a "security" pat - they'll constantly feel to make sure it's still hidden, unless they are very experienced.

People who consistently avoid eye contact with authority figures, especially young and middle aged males are worth questioning.

Lots more...

When you look at their papers, say, open a passport, don't look at the passport. Look at their face - before you ask any questions. If they are using false papers, they may give it away with a look.

These things take time to learn. If you see the look, say, "I have to check your papers" and go out of sight of them for a minute, but have your fellow officers watch him. Wait five minutes. If he's nervous, he's worth questioning further.

Very, very few people are cool customers - unless they have nothing to hide.

People who buy one way tickets and can't identify where they are going to be staying are suspect.

I could keep going...

For starters, men who are in a small group who are trying not to be seen together will constantly look for and at each other. They can't help it. So you can see who is together. If they're avoiding each other, but constantly making eye contact, they're well worth questioning.

People carrying weapons will do a "security" pat - they'll constantly feel to make sure it's still hidden, unless they are very experienced.

People who consistently avoid eye contact with authority figures, especially young and middle aged males are worth questioning.

Lots more...

When you look at their papers, say, open a passport, don't look at the passport. Look at their face - before you ask any questions. If they are using false papers, they may give it away with a look.

These things take time to learn. If you see the look, say, "I have to check your papers" and go out of sight of them for a minute, but have your fellow officers watch him. Wait five minutes. If he's nervous, he's worth questioning further.

Very, very few people are cool customers - unless they have nothing to hide.

People who buy one way tickets and can't identify where they are going to be staying are suspect.

I could keep going...


Problem is, you were describing things that an experienced cop does. Not a well trained cop, an experienced one. That takes years of actually being out there.

Problem is, you were describing things that an experienced cop does. Not a well trained cop, an experienced one. That takes years of actually being out there.
Exactly. Which is why Israeli screeners are experienced Mossad agents.

You need training AND experience. We have neither with our screeners.

These things take time to learn. If you see the look, say, "I have to check your papers" and go out of sight of them for a minute, but have your fellow officers watch him. Wait five minutes. If he's nervous, he's worth questioning further.I was traveling to central asian country and the advice we were given is NEVER let anyone take your papers out of sight. NEVER. They could not have made that point clearer.

Anyway, I always seem to get singled out by security. I don't know what it is about me, but some part of my must look very suspious or guilty. On my trip to to Central Asia I got stopped by security a total of 3 out of 4 times. Once at Heathrow, twice at Tashkent. Though the security at Heathrow looked pretty swanky. They had armed police (sub-machine guns). I got a pat down and then I had to stand between these two boards and hold two different poses. At Tashkent on the outgoing flight I got stopped and the guy looked at my passport for what seemed like ages and then got his collegue to come check my photo as well. On Tashkent return flight I had my luggage searched. Not fun.

Exactly. Which is why Israeli screeners are experienced Mossad agents.

You need training AND experience. We have neither with our screeners.
DK - Check TG.

Problem is, you were describing things that an experienced cop does. Not a well trained cop, an experienced one. That takes years of actually being out there.
And if we had started down this path five years ago, we would have made some mistakes and learned a few lessons. We would, however, be much better at security screening than we are now.