NationStates Jolt Archive

A few days ago, I heard my mom talking Alemannic on the phone, and it sounded alot different from High German. That made me think about my topic "Can't we just classify everyone in the Middle East as arab?" If all those similar people in the ME are so different that they should be classified differently, according to most of you, why not the Northern Germans and the Alemanni?

So, why not Alemannic seperation? It's seems reasonable. The Alemanni span acrose a fairly large area, and they could create a viable country. Of course, this would also bring up issues about Bavarian seperatism/unification with Austria.

I now officially recognise everybody in the northern hemisphere as one race.

I now officially recognise everybody in the northern hemisphere as one race.

:eek:

I now officially recognise everybody in the northern hemisphere as one race.
I now officially recognise everybody in the Globe as members of 6.5 Billion races.

A few days ago, I heard my mom talking Alemannic on the phone, and it sounded alot different from High German. That made me think about my topic "Can't we just classify everyone in the Middle East as arab?" If all those similar people in the ME are so different that they should be classified differently, according to most of you, why not the Northern Germans and the Alemanni?

So, why not Alemannic seperation? It's seems reasonable. The Alemanni span acrose a fairly large area, and they could create a viable country. Of course, this would also bring up issues about Bavarian seperatism/unification with Austria.

While to High German speakers alot of the Allemannic dialects are largely unintelligible, but the other way round there does not seem to be much of a problem..not for my family anyhow.

As regards Bavaria and Austria both are distinct as is switzerland to the rest of the german regions, i myself would have no problem giving up my german citizenship to swear allegience to the Freistaat Bayern.

i myself would have no problem giving up my german citizenship to swear allegience to the Freistaat Bayern.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

As a semi-official representative of the Free Hanseatic City of Hamburg, I shall tell you mountainpeople to pipe it down a little.

While to High German speakers alot of the Allemannic dialects are largely unintelligible, but the other way round there does not seem to be much of a problem..not for my family anyhow.

As regards Bavaria and Austria both are distinct as is switzerland to the rest of the german regions, i myself would have no problem giving up my german citizenship to swear allegience to the Freistaat Bayern.

Which would, in term, bring up the question of Frankonians, Altbayern, Allgaeuern, Oberpfaelzern, Lechrainern and Niederbayern, to mention but a few.
Being from Frankonia myself, I can't understand any of those if they are speaking their dialect. Being from Oberfranken (part of Frankonia), I would have a hard time understanding an Unterfranken (other part of Frankonia).

So, why would we single out the Schwaben alone? Why don't we give every German village its autonomy, as they all speak different languages and have different customs and traditions?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

As a semi-official representative of the Free Hanseatic City of Hamburg, I shall tell you mountainpeople to pipe it down a little.

Being quiet is not in mountainfolks nature :p

I now officially recognise everybody in the Globe as members of 6.5 Billion races.

:p

I now officially state that there is only one human race, and that racists are coming last in it.

Well, I singled out the Alemanni and the Bavarians specifically because they are two of the most widespread "tribes" (I'll admit that my knowledge of Northern "tribes" isn't very good, so I can't talk about that). The Bavarians cover Bavaria and Austria (minus Vorarlberg), and the Alemanni cover most of Switzerland, the southern two-thirds of Baden-Wuerttemberg, Alsace and Lorraine and Vorarlberg.

The point is that politically, it's an impossibility. I don't think the constitution actually provides for it.

The various states had their chance after WWII. But by then, people felt as Germans (understandably, seeing as to what they had all been through) before their local affiliations.

And if you actually asked the people on the ground (or the Alm, whatever the case may be :p ), they'd laugh at your face if you suggested Swabian independence.

While to High German speakers alot of the Allemannic dialects are largely unintelligible, but the other way round there does not seem to be much of a problem..not for my family anyhow.

Sure it isn't just because your family also knows High German? Everybody does.

Sure it isn't just because your family also knows High German? Everybody does.

good point actually.

The point is that politically, it's an impossibility. I don't think the constitution actually provides for it.

For the most part, seperatist movements aren't very political. If you want to seperate from a larger country, you usually have to ignore said country's constitution. :rolleyes:

OH MY GOD WOULD YOU STOP ALREADY?!?






Sorry for yelling, but seriously - I log on & first thing I see is another one of these threads?!
Plus, even worse, it's about "Alemannic tribes"?! Man you wouldn't believe how much I was hoping you'd just be sarcastic for once...


Now excuse me please, but I have to prepare for secession.

Sure it isn't just because your family also knows High German? Everybody does.
Hey, I can speak Platt (http://www.plattmaster.de/) if I need to (although I never do, and haven't heard it for years). That is actually a different language, unlike Allemannic. But it's ridiculous to start dividing countries by language. What is Belgium gonna do? Or Switzerland? Or China?

Sorry for yelling, but seriously - I log on & first thing I see is another one of these threads?!

What threads?

Plus, even worse, it's about "Alemannic tribes"?! Man you wouldn't believe how much I was hoping you'd just be sarcastic for once...

I hope you know what an "Alemannic tribe" is...

If you want to seperate from a larger country, you usually have to ignore said country's constitution.
Well, start recruiting then. As I said, I sorta suspect you will be laughed at a lot.

In other news: Is the Uni Freiburg any good? My uni here offers exchange programs, and I wonder whether that would be a good idea.
My fields are Economics and Business Management.

Hey, I can speak Platt (http://www.plattmaster.de/) if I need to (although I never do, and haven't heard it for years). That is actually a different language, unlike Allemannic. But it's ridiculous to start dividing countries by language. What is Belgium gonna do? Or Switzerland? Or China?

1) Hey, Alemannic is a different language. >_>

2) It's not just language, you know. Them peoples up North can be a little bit loopy.

1) Hey, Alemannic is a different language. >_>

2) It's not just language, you know. Them peoples up North can be a little bit loopy.

By people up north do you mean northern Germany? in which case yeah they can be loopy.

Well, I singled out the Alemanni and the Bavarians specifically because they are two of the most widespread "tribes" (I'll admit that my knowledge of Northern "tribes" isn't very good, so I can't talk about that). The Bavarians cover Bavaria and Austria (minus Vorarlberg), and the Alemanni cover most of Switzerland, the southern two-thirds of Baden-Wuerttemberg, Alsace and Lorraine and Vorarlberg.

Actually, the Bavarians only occupy a small area in Bavaria. Most of Bavaria is made up by Franken, Oberpfaelzern and some Schwaben. There are no Bavarians in Austria.

The North has about as many "tribes", if not even more than the South. And their languages differ just as much.

I come to the conclusion that apart from Allemannisch, you have never ever heard another Germanic dialect.

1) Hey, Alemannic is a different language. >_>



Alemannic is a Southern German dialect, Platt is a Northern German dialect.
Considering that High German is dervied from the Southern dialects, Alemannic has a lot more in common with High German than Platt has.

Speaking of high germans...

:p

Alemannic is a Southern German dialect, Platt is a Northern German dialect.
Considering that High German is dervied from the Southern dialects, Alemannic has a lot more in common with High German than Platt has.

Maybe. But I've read that the case for Alemannic being it's own language (rather than a German dialect) in the eyes of all those international standard organisations is pretty strong, based on mutual intelligibility.

Actually, the Bavarians only occupy a small area in Bavaria. Most of Bavaria is made up by Franken, Oberpfaelzern and some Schwaben. There are no Bavarians in Austria.

I meant Austro-Bavarian types. It's the same with Alemannic, there are many types of it. Those "tribes" you mentioned are Austro-Bavarian, right?

The North has about as many "tribes", if not even more than the South. And their languages differ just as much.

I pretty much implied that. That's why any kind of seperatism, however unlikely, is more pheasable in the South.

I come to the conclusion that apart from Allemannisch, you have never ever heard another Germanic dialect.

I've heard a few.

I meant Austro-Bavarian types. It's the same with Alemannic, there are many types of it. Those "tribes" you mentioned are Austro-Bavarian, right?



They are not. Franken are closer related to Thuringia and Saxony than to Bavaria, but not identical with either of them. Schwaben belong to the Alemannic language family, and as for the Oberpfaelzer, I don't think anybody is really sure about them.
Austrians belong to another group again, and are again split down into a number of different cultures.

There is in fact a movement in every single German culture to seperate out from the Federation, however these are fringe groups with little to no influence at all. Bavarians for example have a small political party that is trying to reinstate monarchy... they are regarded as quaint lunatics by the rest of the country.
I think you fell for one of these groups pretending to be an actual representative for the public opinion...



I pretty much implied that. That's why any kind of seperatism, however unlikely, is more pheasable in the South.

The North has more diversity, therefore the South must split up? Sorry, I don't get it.



I've heard a few.

Such as?

Maybe. But I've read that the case for Alemannic being it's own language (rather than a German dialect) in the eyes of all those international standard organisations is pretty strong, based on mutual intelligibility.

Platt might be regarded as a language on its own. Alemannic doesn't qualify. It's a dialect.

Platt might be regarded as a language on its own. Alemannic doesn't qualify. It's a dialect.

Not from what I've read, or from what I've heard from Alemannic. At least OUR dialect. It sounds a little bit like Arabic (d'oh).

You can see the difference anyway. The seperatist saying, in Alemannic, is "Adee Düütschland. Mr gont!" In High German, it would be "Auf Wiedersehn Deutschland. Wir gehn!"

They're about as different as Portuguese and Spanish, IMO. Which are classified as different languages.

A few days ago, I heard my mom talking Alemannic on the phone, and it sounded alot different from High German. That made me think about my topic "Can't we just classify everyone in the Middle East as arab?" If all those similar people in the ME are so different that they should be classified differently, according to most of you, why not the Northern Germans and the Alemanni?

So, why not Alemannic seperation? It's seems reasonable. The Alemanni span acrose a fairly large area, and they could create a viable country. Of course, this would also bring up issues about Bavarian seperatism/unification with Austria.

How about this: Stop talking about things of which you obviously have not the slightest notion, inform yourself from at least two contrarily biased sources (as nothing is un-biased) none of which carry the words White or Race in the title, and then make a post which does not make you look a complete nut?

Edit: I seem to have forgotten to include looking up the words you want to write, but are not sure how they are written, in a dictionary.

Platt might be regarded as a language on its own.
About that...
Wat mookt nu Platt to een eegen Spraak?

Plattdüütsch hett dat tweete germanisch Luudschuuwen nich mitmookt. Dat hett Plattdüütsch gemeen mit Friesch, Dänsch, Schwedsch, Norwegsch, Islännsch un Faröersch un meist ok mit Ingelsch un Hollandsch. Un dat mookt een Ünnerscheed na de medel- un oberdüütschen Spraakgruppen.

Wi hebbt ´n groten Slag Wöör, to de dat in´t Hochdüütsche un in de hochdüütschen Dialekten keen verwandte Wöör gifft, dorgegen obers in't ole angelsassische Ingelsch, in't Ingelsche un in de skandinavschen Spraaken. All´ns tohoop rekent, köönt dat good över 20 Perzent vun uns plattdüütsche Wöör ween, de keen direkt Pandang in´t Hochdüütsche hebbt. Deelwies sünd dat oole Wöör, de dat ook in anner nedergermanschen Spraaken gifft (t.B. Steert), deelwies as sünnerlich eegen plattdüütsche Wöör as nickkoppen, rallögen, schirrwarken.

Ook Wöör, de mit hochdüütsche Wöör verwandt sünd, sünd faak dichter bi dat angelsassische, dat Ingelsch vandag (vgl. De Nordsee-Wöörlist Platt-English-Deutsch-Anglo-Saxon) oder de skandinavschen Spraaken un dat Hollandsche as bi dat Hochdüütsche.

De Grammatik wiest Ünnerscheed to dat Hochdüütsche io.
Dat sünd - as in´t Ingelsche - bloots 3 Kasus för de Deklination. Dativ un Akkusativ sünd een un dat sülve. (t.B. "Ik kiek di an" - "Ik geev di wat")
Dat gifft - as in´t Hollandsche - bloots twee 2 Artikelgenera: de (m,f) und dat (n)
De Dialekten in'n Norden vun uns Rebeet mokt dat Partizip jümmers ahn ge-, liekers as de skandinavschen Spraaken un dat Ingelsche. In'n Westen un Süden obers mokt se dat Partizip faak mit ge-, so as in´t Düütsche un Hollandsche. In't Medeloller hebbt se obers in dat opschreewen offizielle Nederdüütsch beid Formen bruukt.
Bi Frogen ümschreewt wi faak dat Verb mit "doon", so as de Ingelschen mit "to do"
Dat gifft ´n Slag "Ingväonismen", dat sünd Sünnerlichheeden, de typisch för de Spraaken an de Küst (Plattdüütsch, Friesch, Ingelsch, Hollandsch) sünd. To´n Bispill:
- fief (platt)=five(engl.)=fiif(fries.)=vijf(holl.) an de sted vun "fünf"
- he(platt)=he(engl.)=he(fries.)=hij(holl.) as 3. Person Singular an de sted vun "er"
- is(platt)=is(engl.)=is(fries.)=is(holl.) ahn "t" oder "sch" as in´t Hochdüüsche "ist" oder Allemannsche ("isch").
- dat Hülpsverb sallen/schallen (platt) - shall (engl.) - zullen (ned.) tegen werden (Hochdüütsch) för de Tokumst in de Konjugation (Futur).
Een gode Översicht över de "Charakterisierung der germanischen Sprachfamilie", de ook över Luudschuwen un Ingväonismen geiht, is bi de Nederlandistiker vun de Universität Wien to finnen. Ok biKontrastivlinguistik.de gifft dat ´n gode Sied dorto.
De Syntax is meist as in´t Hochdüütsche, to'n Bispill köönt wi de Reeg Subjekt-Objekt-Prädikat (v.a. in Nebensätzen) moken an de Steed vun Subjekt-Prädikat-Objekt.

Op de anner Sied gifft dat in´n Westen un Süden Övergäng na de medeldüütschen (fränkschen) Dialekten un na de hollandsche Spraak. Dat gifft dat bi de Wöör un in de Grammatik. Nich ganz so klor is dat obers ook in´n Norden un Nordosten to finn as Övergäng na't Dänsche un Schwedsche.

Klor is obers, dat de plattdüütschen Dialekten - ook över fiefhunnert Kilometer weg - so gliek sünd, dat ´n Mekelborger, een Holsteener, een Ostfrees un een Grunnenger fein op platt parleern köönt, ook wenn jedereen sien Dialekt snackt. Obers mit ´n Swietzer, Swaben, Tiroler oder Baiern geiht dat nich - in'n Gegendeel: Sülvs ´n Hollandschen un´n Plattdüütschen köönt sick beter verstahn, wenn jedereen sien Spraak snackt as'n Plattdüütschen un'n Baier. Dat is de praktische Bewies, dat Plattdüütsch 'n eegen Spraak is.

Well, I don't know whether that's that strong a case either, but I would say that Platt definitely has a lot more in common with other languages of the Hanseatic Area, while Alemannic just seems like a variation.

Not from what I've read, or from what I've heard from Alemannic. At least OUR dialect. It sounds a little bit like Arabic (d'oh).

"Hosd amoll a Mamalaadnamala do des mer's am Haamwich deae Omma nodaenn koenna" - many Southern dialects sound like Arabic. Doesn't constitute a language.

They are not. Franken are closer related to Thuringia and Saxony than to Bavaria, but not identical with either of them. Schwaben belong to the Alemannic language family, and as for the Oberpfaelzer, I don't think anybody is really sure about them.
Austrians belong to another group again, and are again split down into a number of different cultures.

There is in fact a movement in every single German culture to seperate out from the Federation, however these are fringe groups with little to no influence at all. Bavarians for example have a small political party that is trying to reinstate monarchy... they are regarded as quaint lunatics by the rest of the country.
I think you fell for one of these groups pretending to be an actual representative for the public opinion...

Ehh. Bavaria isn't really my cup of tea anyway.

The North has more diversity, therefore the South must split up? Sorry, I don't get it.

I meant that if there was support for it, Southern people could form a pheasable state based on Southern ethnicity. The North is too diverse for that.

Such as?

Bavarian dialects, Northern ones, some non-Alemannic Swiss dialects.

I meant that if there was support for it, Southern people could form a pheasable state based on Southern ethnicity. The North is too diverse for that.
It would be spelled with an "f", but more importantly: There is only one meaningful state, and that is the EU.

Size is not a criterion for success, as Luxembourg might attest.

I meant that if there was support for it, Southern people could form a pheasable state based on Southern ethnicity. The North is too diverse for that.



Interesting, since quite the opposite was the case, though the 'ethnicity' part came after.
(Damn Prussians...
*rambles*)

Ehh, it was a fun idea. Although I kinda wish I didn't know about all this tribal, dialect crap. Makes the whole Federal Republic and High German thing seem a little forced and engineered.

For once it seems you got things right.

Ehh. Bavaria isn't really my cup of tea anyway.


Then stop making blanket statements about it.


I meant that if there was support for it, Southern people could form a pheasable state based on Southern ethnicity. The North is too diverse for that.

Has it ever occured to you that maybe, just maybe, the general public in Germany has no desire to seperate?

It would be spelled with an "f", but more importantly: There is only one meaningful state, and that is the EU.

Size is not a criterion for success, as Luxembourg might attest.

Eww, EU. Anyway, a debate for another time.

And, f? Really? It's odd for me to make a spelling mistake. Sounds like a "ph" word.

Ehh, it was a fun idea. Although I kinda wish I didn't know about all this tribal, dialect crap. Makes the whole Federal Republic and High German thing seem a little forced and engineered.

All nations are artificial human constructs.
Take a long look at German history, the construction was a highly interesting and long process....

Has it ever occured to you that maybe, just maybe, the general public in Germany has no desire to seperate?

Well duh. It was just an idea. Geez, don't bite my head off, woman.

All nations are artificial human constructs.
Take a long look at German history, the construction was a highly interesting and long process....

Yeah, but the whole 1871 thing was the real engineering. Before that, it's was mostly principalities and loose confederations.

Well duh. It was just an idea. Geez, don't bite my head off, woman.

I wouldn't if that was the first time you created a thread like that...
Yes, I do easily take offense at people making blanket statements about German issues they clearly know very little about, sorry. I grew up in this rich diversity, and let me tell you, I'm moderate in my fascination with German languages, dialects, customs and cultures. I know some people who would flay you alive for suggesting what you suggested ;)

Ehh, it was a fun idea. Although I kinda wish I didn't know about all this tribal, dialect crap. Makes the whole Federal Republic and High German thing seem a little forced and engineered.
Obviously it's forced and engineered. That's what getting your arse kicked by the rest of the world gets you.

But just to be straight with you: There were people who gave their life for the idea of a unified Germany. Being split up was not a good thing. Germany was used as the playground for all sorts of foreign powers (usually the French), which is not something I can imagine you enjoying much.
The ideals that made the Federal Republic the thing that it is though were not imposed on Germans. They'd been around for some time.

Read up on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolutions_of_1848_in_the_German_states

Personally, I still feel insulted to be grouped with those pesky Austrians.

Yeah, but the whole 1871 thing was the real engineering. Before that, it's was mostly principalities and loose confederations.

Before that, it was the Holy German Empire of German Nation, and after Napoleon, the Rheinbund.
Not really a "loose confederation", although it was indeed too loose to function properly.
You might want to read up on the ideals of the 1848 revolution, regarding the German nation.

Personally, I still feel insulted to be grouped with those pesky Austrians.

I'm half-Austrian, half-Frankisch... imagine how insulted I feel right now :D

Before I get banned for trolling, a reading tip on German Unification as it might have been:
An den Feuern der Leyermark by Carl Amery
(The Fires of Leyermark)
Nice alternate history novel about what might have happened if the South would win the war of '66.
*Exeunt*

I'm half-Austrian, half-Frankisch... imagine how insulted I feel right now :D

roffle le mao!

Obviously it's forced and engineered. That's what getting your arse kicked by the rest of the world gets you.

But just to be straight with you: There were people who gave their life for the idea of a unified Germany. Being split up was not a good thing. Germany was used as the playground for all sorts of foreign powers (usually the French), which is not something I can imagine you enjoying much.
The ideals that made the Federal Republic the thing that it is though were not imposed on Germans. They'd been around for some time.

Ironically, I think Germany's had it's ass kicked MORE since unification, with the exception of a superficial victory in the Balkans Conflict.

Nice alternate history novel about what might have happened if the South would win the war of '66.
*Shivers*

Before that, it was the Holy German Empire of German Nation

I almost have contempt for the HRE. It was neither holy, nor German, nor an empire.

Ironically, I think Germany's had it's ass kicked MORE since unification, with the eception of a superficial victory in the Balkans Conflict.

That's what you get for getting dellusions of grandieur all of a sudden...
Germany, once unified, had an urge to catch up with the other great European nations, which were by that time all colonial powers. Aggressive politics eventually led to a war Germany couldn't dream of winning...

*Shivers*

Remember the Kini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_II_of_Bavaria) we had back then. I´ld take him any day over any Prussian monarch you can name.

I almost have contempt for the HRE. It was neither holy, nor German, nor an empire.

It regarded itself as the legal successor of the Roman Empire.... hence the name. And it did last much longer than most other empires the planet has seen.

Remember the Kini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_II_of_Bavaria) we had back then. I´ld take him any day over any Prussian monarch you can name.

Meh.... castle-building, anti-semitic lunatic....

It regarded itself as the legal successor of the Roman Empire.... hence the name. And it did last much longer than most other empires the planet has seen.

Propably because it was one of the weakest empires the planet has seen.

That's what you get for getting dellusions of grandieur all of a sudden...
Germany, once unified, had an urge to catch up with the other great European nations, which were by that time all colonial powers. Aggressive politics eventually led to a war Germany couldn't dream of winning...

Actually, it's what happens when a retarded monarch dismisses Bismarck. Who the hell dismisses Bismarck? You don't dismiss Bismarck. You just don't.

Propably because it was one of the weakest empires the planet has seen.
At times. At other times, it was a very powerful faction. Either way, the reason it might not have been as great as it could have been is exactly the sort of division we were talking about before.

Propably because it was one of the weakest empires the planet has seen.

Yeah, I don't think anyone bothered to conquer it.

Actually, it's what happens when a retarded monarch dismisses Bismarck. Who the hell dismisses Bismarck? You don't dismiss Bismarck. You just don't.

Demetia caused by extensive inbreeding, I'm guessing. It was easily the most stupid political decision of the last century.

What threads?
The ones where your obsession with ethnicity/descent/bloodlines was the driving force.

I hope you know what an "Alemannic tribe" is...
Why yes, thank you very much, why are you asking?

I meant that if there was support for it, Southern people could form a pheasable state based on Southern ethnicity. The North is too diverse for that.
How exactly does the settlement of a large region 1500 years ago by a tribal collective that itself used to be entirely separate tribes just a couple hundred years earlier set the stage for a contemporary secession based on "Southern ethnicity"?

Do really think anybody knows/thinks/cares about which exact Germanic tribe was the first to roam the general area where we live today?

There is no "Alemannic ethnicity". People would laugh you in the face if you came here and started talking about that. There are Alsacians, Swiss Germans, Swabians, Badenser etc. That's it.

The Alemannic dialects are so different from each other that we will often have as much difficulties in understanding each other as we would with someone from deepest Bavaria or Saxonia. Unless you're a linguist, you'll be hardpressed to hear any similarites between Alsacian, Schwyzerdütsch, and Swabian.

And no offense, but when you don't speak a language, every dialect will sound like "Arabic".

Demetia caused by extensive inbreeding, I'm guessing. It was easily the most stupid political decision of the last century.

I'd rank it among the worst of all time, along with Versailles and Bay of Pigs.

At times. At other times, it was a very powerful faction. Either way, the reason it might not have been as great as it could have been is exactly the sort of division we were talking about before.

I´ld even say that´s the point. When the different factions worked towards a cause united, they were very powerful.
But even then they still were different factions, who´s primary aim usually was not the greater good of the HRE, but the greater good of their respective fiefdoms.

I'd rank it among the worst of all time, along with Versailles and Bay of Pigs.

Care to elaborate (in another thread) why you put Versailles in there? And, more important, which Versailles (as in 'historical event') you refer to?

Care to elaborate (in another thread) why you put Versailles in there? And, more important, which Versailles (as in 'historical event') you refer to?

Rather than make a new topic, I'll just sum it up here. Treaty of Versailles. It was written by vengeance-driven idiots. And, I kid you not, some French dude said in 1919 "This is no peace! This is just a cease-fire for 20 years!"

Rather than make a new topic, I'll just sum it up here. Treaty of Versailles. It was written by vengeance-driven idiots. And, I kid you not, some French dude said in 1919 "This is no peace! This is just a cease-fire for 20 years!"

So was it bad because it was so vengeful, only because some Boschs picknicked in the countryside, or because it was not vengeful enough, leaving Germany not weak enough, but merely weaker and vengeful themselves?

As a sidenote: If you think the Treaty of Versailles was that bad, what´s your opinion on the rest of the Banlieu Treaties?

So was it bad because it was so vengeful, only because some Boschs picknicked in the countryside, or because it was not vengeful enough, leaving Germany not weak enough, but merely weaker and vengeful themselves?

Too vengeful. It's pretty much the reason WWII started. If they'd just given Germany a slap on the wrist, they'd probably end up as allies against the Soviets.

As a sidenote: If you think the Treaty of Versailles was that bad, what´s your opinion on the rest of the Banlieu Treaties?

Banlieu... Treaties?

*waits for explanation*

No worries, it easily slips notice, but WWI had more participants than only Germany, the Entente and Russia.
Banlieu Treaty is a free translation of my behalf, as I do not know what they are usually called in English, but in German, they are named Pariser Vorortsverträge (Vorort = banlieu = suburb).
The Banlieu Treaties were the verdicts the victors placed upon the other losers (f.e. Treaty of Compiègne).

A few days ago, I heard my mom talking Alemannic on the phone, and it sounded alot different from High German. That made me think about my topic "Can't we just classify everyone in the Middle East as arab?" If all those similar people in the ME are so different that they should be classified differently, according to most of you, why not the Northern Germans and the Alemanni?

So, why not Alemannic seperation? It's seems reasonable. The Alemanni span acrose a fairly large area, and they could create a viable country. Of course, this would also bring up issues about Bavarian seperatism/unification with Austria.
If anything should be a separate country, then it's certainly Bavaria! It's *by far* the most different from the rest of Germany, has a language of it's own (Bavarian) that's very different from normal German, and it's chock full of creeps lead by the über-creep Mr. Stoiber :sniper:
We should get rid of these creeps better today than tomorrow! Let them be their own nation, because I don't think Austria would want them (I certainly wouldn't if I were Austria).

So was it bad because it was so vengeful, only because some Boschs picknicked in the countryside, or because it was not vengeful enough, leaving Germany not weak enough, but merely weaker and vengeful themselves?

As a sidenote: If you think the Treaty of Versailles was that bad, what´s your opinion on the rest of the Banlieu Treaties?
Trianon was pretty cool, in my opinion.

About that...
Wat mookt nu Platt to een eegen Spraak?

Plattdüütsch hett dat tweete germanisch Luudschuuwen nich mitmookt. Dat hett Plattdüütsch gemeen mit Friesch, Dänsch, Schwedsch, Norwegsch, Islännsch un Faröersch un meist ok mit Ingelsch un Hollandsch. Un dat mookt een Ünnerscheed na de medel- un oberdüütschen Spraakgruppen.
Still understandable without too much problems (even though I can't speak Dutch or Platt or anything related).
It's really not *that* much different.

"Hosd amoll a Mamalaadnamala do des mer's am Haamwich deae Omma nodaenn koenna"
Uhh... Bahnhof? :confused:
As I said, Bavarian is pretty much a language of its own, completely incomprehensible to any High German speakers. There are other Southern dialects who also differ quite a bit, but not as much as Bavarian.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

As a semi-official representative of the Free Hanseatic City of Hamburg, I shall tell you mountainpeople to pipe it down a little.

As the other semi-official delegate I can only second that :p

Uhh... Bahnhof? :confused:
As I said, Bavarian is pretty much a language of its own, completely incomprehensible to any High German speakers. There are other Southern dialects who also differ quite a bit, but not as much as Bavarian.

I don't speak Bavarian, that's Fraenkisch.
Although, politically, Franken is part of Bayern.

Uhh... Bahnhof? :confused:
As I said, Bavarian is pretty much a language of its own, completely incomprehensible to any High German speakers. There are other Southern dialects who also differ quite a bit, but not as much as Bavarian.
Um, that's Fränkisch. And, honestly, most dialects are a lot harder to understand written than spoken. Also, I completely fail to see your point about Bavarian being the most "different" of dialects. Granted, the Bavarians themselves can be, erm, different indeed, but the dialect really isn't that unintelligible. :confused:

I don't speak Bavarian, that's Fraenkisch.
Although, politically, Franken is part of Bayern.

We prefer the term 'colony', thank you. ;)

I don't speak Bavarian, that's Fraenkisch.
Although, politically, Franken is part of Bayern.
I'd classify Fränkisch as a variant of Bavarian (linguistically speaking).

Um, that's Fränkisch. And, honestly, most dialects are a lot harder to understand written than spoken. Also, I completely fail to see your point about Bavarian being the most "different" of dialects. Granted, the Bavarians themselves can be, erm, different indeed, but the dialect really isn't that unintelligible. :confused:
I'd rather say it's quite the other way round, they're more difficult to understand spoken than written - epecially Bavarian. In written form, while already quite unintelligible, you might be able to make out a word here and there that looks vaguely common, but if they actually start speaking it... :eek:
Just recently, I happened to see a part of a theather piece performed in Bavarian... they could've just as well spoken Swahili or whatever, I didn't understand the slightest bit of it.

Also with Platt or Dutch - in written form, you can still half-way understand it without too much problems, but when they start speaking it, understanding it is already a good bit more difficult.

I'd classify Fränkisch as a variant of Bavarian (linguistically speaking).

And you'd be wrong - linguistically speaking. It's closer related to Thueringisch and Saechsisch than to any of the Bavarian dialects.

By the by,
Sorry, no English link (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,402633,00.html).

I'd rather say it's quite the other way round, they're more difficult to understand spoken than written - epecially Bavarian. In written form, while already quite unintellegible, you might be able to make out a word here and there that looks vaguely common, but if they actually start speaking it... :eek:

Also with Platt or Dutch - in written form, you can still half-way understand it without too much problems, but when they start speaking it, understanding it is already a good bit more difficult.
I definitely agree with you on Dutch - I'm sure I would understand hardly a word if I heard someone speak it, but when written it's actually halfway easy.

But with German dialects, it's different (well, for me it is). Like Cabra's post above - I'm sure it would be way more intelligible when you hear it instead of reading it. And I know that even my own original dialect (Swabian) is very hard for me to read. Maybe a lot of it has to do with the fact that it's often very hard to transcribe the phonetics of a dialect with standard German. You'd need to spell it phonetically, like in a dictionary. But then of course, nobody could read it :eek: Well, I couldn't, because I always sucked at Lautschrift...

And you'd be wrong - linguistically speaking. It's closer related to Thueringisch and Saechsisch than to any of the Bavarian dialects.
I understand... no one wants to be related to the Bavarians. Sorry if I did offend you. :(

By the by,
Sorry, no English link (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,402633,00.html).
Whoa... yet more totally freaked out Bavarians :eek:

But, but...
Ach, sod it.
*goes to the Bierzelt*

Who cares wether Swabia gets independence let the Freistaat be free! and bring back the Wittelbach's!:D

I don't speak Bavarian, that's Fraenkisch.
Although, politically, Franken is part of Bayern.

Cabra: :fluffle: :)
Greetings from Nürnberg!

By the way do you know Guenter Stoessel's "Nämberch English Spoken?"

He uses nonsensically English phrases which makes sense in Fränkisch.
E.G.: "Day maine an butcher hum" = "Däi mäin en batscher ham" = "Die müssen bescheuert sein" or
"Hide Kennedy Ford Gay!" = "Heute könnte ich fort gehen"
It's a good and funny read!

And to all the others: Don't diss Bavaria! Bavaria rules! (Of course only since Franconia became part of it - but together we are unbeatable!)

Cabra: :fluffle: :)
Greetings from Nürnberg!

By the way do you know Guenter Stoessel's "Nämberch English Spoken?"

He uses nonsensically English phrases which makes sense in Fränkisch.
E.G.: "Day maine an butcher hum" = "Däi mäin en batscher ham" = "Die müssen bescheuert sein" or
"Hide Kennedy Ford Gay!" = "Heute könnte ich fort gehen"
It's a good and funny read!

And to all the others: Don't diss Bavaria! Bavaria rules! (Of course only since Franconia became part of it - but together we are unbeatable!)


Schau mer heae, a Nermberchae Lebkoungbeggae.... ;) :fluffle:

I'm from Bamberg myself. Those sentences only would make sense in the Nuernberger dialect, but they are hilarious nonetheless.

And you're right. Only people from Bavaria have the right to diss it... after all, they are the ones who suffer ;)

Schau mer heae, a Nermberchae Lebkoungbeggae.... ;) :fluffle:

I'm from Bamberg myself. Those sentences only would make sense in the Nuernberger dialect, but they are hilarious nonetheless.

And you're right. Only people from Bavaria have the right to diss it... after all, they are the ones who suffer ;)

:) Bamberg -> What a beautiful city ... a bit small, though.
But everybody knows why the Southern-Swedes (for outsiders:
Southern-Swedes in Bavaria means just Northern-Germans :D ) are always ranting and raving about us -> Jealousy and malevolence and bitchiness !!!!!!

Mir san mir!

:) Bamberg -> What a beautiful city ... a bit small, though.
But everybody knows why the Southern-Swedes (for outsiders:
Southern-Swedes in Bavaria means just Northern-Germans :D ) are always ranting and raving about us -> Jealousy and malevolence and bitchiness !!!!!!

Mir san mir!

Beautiful all right... but a museum. Not a place to live.
Sorry, I'm not much of a Lokalpatriot, I was actually quite happy to be able to study in Leipzig and to live in Ireland right now. :)

But it's ridiculous to start dividing countries by language. What is Belgium gonna do? Or Switzerland? Or China?

lol..You missed India, the second most linguistically diverse country (after Papua New Guinea, I think). We have 22 official languages and 400 odd languages in total.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=IN

A few days ago, I heard my mom talking Alemannic on the phone, and it sounded alot different from High German. That made me think about my topic "Can't we just classify everyone in the Middle East as arab?" If all those similar people in the ME are so different that they should be classified differently, according to most of you, why not the Northern Germans and the Alemanni?

So, why not Alemannic seperation? It's seems reasonable. The Alemanni span acrose a fairly large area, and they could create a viable country. Of course, this would also bring up issues about Bavarian seperatism/unification with Austria.


Look, if you want to be a racist, just be one.

Label everyone with a certain skin tone an Arab if you want, you don't have to justify it.

Everyone will continue to consider you ignorant regardless.

Beautiful all right... but a museum. Not a place to live.
Sorry, I'm not much of a Lokalpatriot, I was actually quite happy to be able to study in Leipzig and to live in Ireland right now. :)

Good choice!
I understand that. I only came back to Nürnberg 5 years ago ...
Now I feel well ... but at that time I needed to discover some new places.

Now I'm happy to work in a job that gives me the opportunity to travel very often. Next trip will be into Wales in a couple of weeks:)

Look, if you want to be a racist, just be one.

Label everyone with a certain skin tone an Arab if you want, you don't have to justify it.

Everyone will continue to consider you ignorant regardless.

Well, someone's got a rod up their butt.

I liked it when germany was lots of little countries.

It was restful.

To my mind though, that is the only real advantage of the EU. Theoretically, it could allow for far more regional autonomy withing the big four. Certainly, there are parts of the england where people occasionally wonder if they would be better off seperated from westminister. I imagine it is the same in germany.

I liked it when germany was lots of little countries.

It was restful.

To my mind though, that is the only real advantage of the EU. Theoretically, it could allow for far more regional autonomy withing the big four. Certainly, there are parts of the england where people occasionally wonder if they would be better off seperated from westminister. I imagine it is the same in germany.

I liked that, too. I mean, it surely was a bit complicated when every city had its own currency and you had to pass the customs every now and then, but these were other times. But I also think, that it was restful. There are some more or less funny separation movements, e.g. an association in Würzburg area who wants Franconia separated from Bavaria and become an own federal state. :cool:
http://www.bundesland-franken.de/