NationStates Jolt Archive


Evil, Racist, Ant-Civil Liberties Conservative....

Syniks
22-02-2006, 17:44
NOT!

Say Hello to Alan Dershowitz - promoting and explaining the NEED for all those evil racist conservative positions.

All praise Prof. Alan Dershowitz

By Tony Blankley
Feb 22, 2006

Next week a vastly important book will be published: "Preemption: A Knife That Cuts Both Ways" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393060128/ref=nosim/102-5944210-6416103?n=283155) by Alan Dershowitz. Yes, that Alan Dershowitz: the very liberal civil libertarian, anti-capital punishment Harvard Law School professor. And but for my lack of his legal scholarship, there is nary a sentence in the book that I -- a very conservative editor of the Washington Times, and former press secretary to Newt Gingrich -- couldn't have written.

The premise of his book is that in this age of terror, there is a potential need for such devices as profiling, preventive detention, anticipatory mass inoculation, prior restraint of dangerous speech, targeted extrajudicial executions of terrorists and preemptive military action including full-scale preventive war.

In his own words, from his Introduction: "The shift from responding to past events to preventing future harms is part of one of the most significant but unnoticed trends in the world today. It challenges our traditional reliance on a model of human behavior that presupposes a rational person capable of being deterred by the threat of punishment. The classic theory of deterrence postulates a calculating evildoer who can evaluate the cost-benefits of proposed actions and will act -- and forbear from acting -- on the basis of these calculations. It also presupposes society's ability (and willingness) to withstand the blows we seek to deter and to use the visible punishment of those blows as threats capable of deterring future harms. These assumptions are now being widely questioned as the threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of suicide terrorists becomes more realistic and as our ability to deter such harms by classic rational cost-benefit threats and promises becomes less realistic."

Yet, such policies conflict with traditional concepts of civil liberties, human rights, criminal justice, national security, foreign policy and international law He shrewdly observes that historically, nations -- including democracies -- have resorted to such deviations from law and custom out of necessity. But that it has all been ad hoc, secret or deceptive. Prof. Dershowitz argues that now, rather, we need to begin to develop an honest jurisprudence of prevention to legally regulate such mechanisms. It is better, he argues, to democratically decide now, before the next disaster, this new jurisprudence -- the rules by which we will take these necessary actions.

To see the difference between traditional Anglo-American criminal jurisprudence and his proposed jurisprudence of prevention, he raises the great maxim of criminal law: better that ten guilty go free, than one innocent be wrongly convicted. That principle led our law to require proof beyond a reasonable doubt before conviction in criminal trials. Most of us agree with that standard.

But then Prof. Dershowitz updates the maxim thusly: "Is it better for ten possibly preventable terrorist attacks to occur than for one possibly innocent suspect to be preventively detained?" I would hunch that most people would not be willing to accept ten September 11th attacks (30,000 dead) in order to protect one innocent suspect from being locked up and questioned for a while.

Is it possible to go beyond such gut instincts and ad hoc decision making during a crises, and begin to develop a thoughtful set of standards for conduct in this dangerous new world? I don't know.

As Prof. Dershowitz observes, a jurisprudence develops slowly in response to generations, centuries of adjudicated events. But to the extent we recognize the need for it and start thinking systematically, to that extent we won't be completely hostage to the whim and discretion of a few men at moments of extreme stress.

At the minimum, an early effort at a jurisprudence of prevention would at least help in defining events. Consider the long and fruitless recent debate about the imminence of the danger from Saddam Hussein's Iraq, or the current debate on Iran's possible nuclear weapons. Under traditional international law standards they are both classic non-imminent threat situations: "early stage acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by a state presumed to be hostile."

But as Dershowitz points out, while the threat itself is not imminent, "the opportunity to prevent the threat will soon pass." Once they have the weapons it is too late.

Or, a low price in innocent casualties might soon pass. For instance, in 1981 when Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear site at Osirak, if they had waited much longer the site would have been "radioactively hot" and massive innocent civilian casualties would have been incurred from radioactive releases. It is simply not enough anymore to say a country violates the norm by acting in its ultimate, but not imminent, self-defense. We need new standards for a new age.

The new realities of unacceptable risk require new -- and lower-- standards of certainty before defensive action is permitted.

As we develop a jurisprudence of prevention, we increase the chance of justice and rationality being a bigger part of such crisis decisions that our presidents will be facing for the foreseeable future.

Dershowitz's sound, practical scholarship is commendable. But what I find heartening is the political fact that a prominent scholar of the left has finally entered into a constructive conversation about how to manage our inevitably dangerous WMD/terrorist infested future.

If such as Dershowitz and I can find common ground, there should be space there for a multitude. And from that common ground can grow a common plan for a common victory.

(Editor's Note: Professor Dershowitz's book is now on sale at Amazon.com for 34% off the cover price.) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393060128/ref=nosim/102-5944210-6416103?n=283155)

Tony Blankley is the author of The West's Last Chance and editorial page editor for the Washington Times.

Let the weeping and gnashing of teeth begin.
G_D
22-02-2006, 17:47
NOT!

Say Hello to Alan Dershowitz - promoting and explaining the NEED for all those evil racist conservative positions.

Let the weeping and gnashing of teeth begin.
http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/g_d.jpg

AND NOW YOU UNDERSTAND WHY I CREATED AND CHOSE THE JEWS...
Muravyets
22-02-2006, 18:19
NOT!

Say Hello to Alan Dershowitz - promoting and explaining the NEED for all those evil racist conservative positions.



Let the weeping and gnashing of teeth begin.
For contrast, I recommend Dershowitz's new book "Rights from Wrongs" in which Mr. Dershowitz proposes a new, experiential approach to the definition and application of rights through a process of vigorous advocacy in response to social wrongs, with the express purpose of controlling, slowing, ending and preventing said wrongs (like uncontrolled, never-ending, warrantless wiretapping) (a process he calls "righting"). His liberal-progressive cred is solid.

If anyone is going to gnash and weep, let it be those rabid rightwingers out there who like to use the word "liberal" as an insult and shut down all intelligent discussion about what we should actually be doing about the current dangers we face.
Syniks
22-02-2006, 18:35
For contrast, I recommend Dershowitz's new book "Rights from Wrongs" in which Mr. Dershowitz proposes a new, experiential approach to the definition and application of rights through a process of vigorous advocacy in response to social wrongs, with the express purpose of controlling, slowing, ending and preventing said wrongs (like uncontrolled, never-ending, warrantless wiretapping)Somthing the NSA program doesn't do BTW... (a process he calls "righting"). His liberal-progressive cred is solid.

If anyone is going to gnash and weep, let it be those rabid rightwingers out there who like to use the word "liberal" as an insult and shut down all intelligent discussion about what we should actually be doing about the current dangers we face.Did you actually read the article? The author is not exactly a lapdog rightwinger....
G_D
23-02-2006, 04:06
Did you actually read the article? The author is not exactly a lapdog rightwinger....
http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/g_d.jpg

I OCCASIONALLY ALLOW INDIVIDUALS OF MY CHOSEN ONES MOMENTS OF INTELLECTUAL HONESTY. ALAN IS SIMPLY DOING MY BIDDING.

AS FOR THE CONSERVATIVE HACK WHO WROTE THE OP ARTICLE... HE HAD IMPURE THOUGHTS LAST SUNDAY AND I HAVE DISOWNED HIM - EVEN IF HE DOES AGREE WITH ALAN.
Ravenshrike
23-02-2006, 04:16
For contrast, I recommend Dershowitz's new book "Rights from Wrongs" in which Mr. Dershowitz proposes a new, experiential approach to the definition and application of rights through a process of vigorous advocacy in response to social wrongs, with the express purpose of controlling, slowing, ending and preventing said wrongs (like uncontrolled, never-ending, warrantless wiretapping) (a process he calls "righting"). His liberal-progressive cred is solid.

If anyone is going to gnash and weep, let it be those rabid rightwingers out there who like to use the word "liberal" as an insult and shut down all intelligent discussion about what we should actually be doing about the current dangers we face.
Liberal is only an insult because the communists and later the democratic party hijacked the word and dumped the original meaning.
Neu Leonstein
23-02-2006, 04:18
Right...so why are we living in an "age of terror"? I'm not terrorised? Are you terrorised?

Anyone else terrorised?

That's the false premise from which the whole argument starts.
Undelia
23-02-2006, 04:20
So essentially, he’s a fascist? Fuck him. He deserves to be shot.
UberPenguinLandReturns
23-02-2006, 04:20
I'm terrified of the dark. :p But no, I'm not scared of Terrorists killing me.
Europa Maxima
23-02-2006, 04:22
What annoys me is that Hans-Hermann Hoppe, despite making many good arguments in his book, also advocates racism and other forms of social discrimination, especially against homosexuality. It undermines the entire scope of his work.
Soheran
23-02-2006, 04:22
Alan Dershowitz is one of those fake "liberals" who prevaricates about "human rights" and "civil liberties" but is in reality an especially offensive breed of authoritarian.

Seem to be a lot of those around these days.
Undelia
23-02-2006, 04:24
Seem to be a lot of those around these days.
Can you say every Democrat in office?
Soheran
23-02-2006, 04:28
Can you say every Democrat in office?

Not every Democrat. Russ Feingold, for instance, just recently demonstrated (again) courageous opposition to the PATRIOT Act.

But almost all of them are worthless, yes.
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
23-02-2006, 04:31
Right...so why are we living in an "age of terror"? I'm not terrorised? Are you terrorised?
We live in an age where, at any moment, a drunk white-trash inbred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Federline) can gain fame and a record deal simply by knocking up a woman who became famous for being slutty jail bate in the '90s.
We live in an age where any numb nuts with $50 and a camcorder can fill my video store with crappy movies about Gary Busey turning into a gingerbread man. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0364376/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnx0dD0xfGZiPXV8cG49MHxrdz0xfHE9Z2luZ2VyYnJlYWQgbWFufGZ0PTF8bXg9MjB8bG09NTAwfGNvPTF8aHRt bD0xfG5tPTE_;fc=5;ft=19;fm=1)
We live in an age where people can give positive reviews to both of these abortions, and, rather than seek out and destroy their creators, actually provide them with money.
In a world like this, you'd have to be stupid not to be terrified.
Europa Maxima
23-02-2006, 04:33
We live in an age where, at any moment, a drunk white-trash inbred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Federline) can gain fame and a record deal simply by knocking up a woman who became famous for being slutty jail bate in the '90s.
We live in an age where any numb nuts with $50 and a camcorder can fill my video store with crappy movies about Gary Busey turning into a gingerbread man. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0364376/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnx0dD0xfGZiPXV8cG49MHxrdz0xfHE9Z2luZ2VyYnJlYWQgbWFufGZ0PTF8bXg9MjB8bG09NTAwfGNvPTF8aHRt bD0xfG5tPTE_;fc=5;ft=19;fm=1)
We live in an age where people can give positive reviews to both of these abortions, and, rather than seek out and destroy their creators, actually provide them with money.
In a world like this, you'd have to be stupid not to be terrified.
The road to decivilisation. I think that's the one we're on. :)
Kibolonia
23-02-2006, 04:38
http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/g_d.jpg
If I squint that's a picture of a monkey. Just what did you make in your image? And if you go to Boeing surpluss you can get a coffee covered keyboard with working caps lock key for like 25 cents.
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
23-02-2006, 04:41
The road to decivilisation. I think that's the one we're on. :)
The scariest part is that we won't die horrible agonizing deaths in the next month, but that we'll probably live to see it get much, much worse.
Nyuujaku
23-02-2006, 04:42
I'm trying to understand the "not" business. This guy obviously is an "Evil, Racist, Ant-Civil Liberties Conservative" -- so why not call a spade a spade? Not everyone who self-identifies as a liberal is a liberal, just as not everyone who self-identifies as a conservative is a conservative.

"Is it better for ten possibly preventable terrorist attacks to occur than for one possibly innocent suspect to be preventively detained?"
Yes. If we're so cowardly and scared that we're going to tuck our tails and say "well, maybe fucking over the innocent isn't such a bad alternative," then the terrorists have won. Those who fought and died for our freedoms fought in vain.
Europa Maxima
23-02-2006, 04:45
The scariest part is that we won't die horrible agonizing deaths in the next month, but that we'll probably live to see it get much, much worse.
If you see who won Big Brother: Celebrity in the UK you will no doubt feint. Or for that matter, all the emetic rejects on American Idol. It's getting worse by the minute. All we can do is watch and enjoy the show of this nouvel "elite."
The Black Forrest
23-02-2006, 04:50
Meh. He sounded like a rightwinger when I heard him on the radio bitching about the evil liberals messing up Harvard with that President getting ousted.....
Muravyets
23-02-2006, 07:00
Somthing the NSA program doesn't do BTW... Did you actually read the article? The author is not exactly a lapdog rightwinger....
I wasn't talking about the writer of the article. I was talking about the rabid rightwingers on NS. I mean the really rabid ones who call names rather than debate. They may gnash and weep that a liberal like Dershowitz doesn't want to coddle terrorists and is willing to make reasonable compromises for security.
Muravyets
23-02-2006, 07:15
Liberal is only an insult because the communists and later the democratic party hijacked the word and dumped the original meaning.
From my point of view, it is the right wing that is trying to hijack "liberal" lately, and they seem to be trying make it mean anything and everything they or their base don't like at any given moment. I don't care what either the left or right think the word "liberal" means. I am a liberal, I know what it means and what I believe, and I'm neither a Communist nor a Democrat. (BTW, I don't think "Communist" or "Democrat" are bad things to be, either.)
Muravyets
23-02-2006, 07:21
Alan Dershowitz is one of those fake "liberals" who prevaricates about "human rights" and "civil liberties" but is in reality an especially offensive breed of authoritarian.

Seem to be a lot of those around these days.
I disagree, but it's true that it's hard to like Dershowitz. I think it has to do more with him being a big-ass criminal defense lawyer. His whole career is about making excuses for horrible things. You should check the book I mentioned and see if you still hate him. You may still disagree with him about how things should work, but I don't think he is an authoritarian at all.

Bottom line for me is I like Dershowitz as a thinker and as a lawyer, but I wouldn't put him in charge of anything important outside a courtroom because he's just too much of a lawyer. And I like lawyers.
Demented Hamsters
23-02-2006, 07:22
Did you actually read the article? The author is not exactly a lapdog rightwinger....
Not exactly a lapdog rightwinger?
Let's see how he desrcibes himself:
I - a very conservative editor of the Washington Times, and former press secretary to Newt Gingrich
I'm sorry, but if you think a frmr press secretary to Gingrich isn't rightwing, I shudder to think what you would classify as one. Attilla the Hun, maybe?

I can see now why Eutrusca can claim to be centrist.
Muravyets
23-02-2006, 07:32
There's just one problem with this article. The author is Tony Blankley who *is* a major league right winger. I just read the article again and I noticed again that his quotes from Dershowitz's book are very short. Are we sure he's not taking these quotes out of context? He seems very sure that Dershowitz agrees 100% with everything Blankley himself has been saying on television since 9/11 happened. But I've heard Dershowitz saying the exact opposite on television during that same time, and in "Rights from Wrongs," Dershowitz specifically criticizes detention without due process over and over again, calling it a violation of fundamental rights that must be avoided by vigorous advocacy for rights. I'm 2/3rds through the book and he's brought this up at least 10 times.

So either Dershowitz is such a two-faced stereotypical lawyer that he's practically Jekyll and Hyde, or maybe this article is giving a mistaken impression. The first option is entirely possible, but I think the second option is more likely.
Syniks
23-02-2006, 16:29
Not exactly a lapdog rightwinger?
Let's see how he desrcibes himself:

I'm sorry, but if you think a frmr press secretary to Gingrich isn't rightwing, I shudder to think what you would classify as one. Attilla the Hun, maybe?

I can see now why Eutrusca can claim to be centrist.
My point was that the guy IS a self-proclaimed rabid right winger, not some (hardly rabid) little lapdog, and, as a rabid right winger, he agrees with the positions taken in a book written by a noted "Progressive"/Liberal mouthpiece.

Way to miss the point.