NationStates Jolt Archive

Don't get me wrong I like the native Irish language.I am someone who can speak it fluently but there is now a question on whether it is no longer necessary to keep it as a compulsary subject in our schools.I was just wondering what makes a language obsolete.I feel that it should be a choice to learn any language that is not your first tounge.And considering that there are so few speakers left prehaps it is time to let it go...

Its not the fact that it is compulsory. It is the manner and method in which it is taught.

If it was taught like French, Spanish or German is then the 'hatred' of learning it would go.

It isn't any more necessary for you to study Gaelic than for me to study Tsalagi. The purpose of school is to prepare pupils to become productive members of society. Neither language are required in order to survive/thrive in modern society, ergo they are not necessary subjects. They do, however, create cultural cohesion. To me they ought to fall under the same umbrella and thought process as the arts do, in schools.

It's hardly extinct when the Gaeltacht still exists, is it?

Its not the fact that it is compulsory. It is the manner and method in which it is taught.

If it was taught like French, Spanish or German is then the 'hatred' of learning it would go.
That is a point I have always argued.It has always been tought on the point that if you did not learn it you were somehow less Irish.

The purpose of school is to prepare pupils to become productive members of society..

Whoa.... what a warped sense of education you have.

The purpose of school is to educate not to churn out 'good little workers'.

The purpose of school is to prepare pupils to become productive members of society.
I assume that is only a European thing; American schools do their damndest to not prepare students for the real world.

It's hardly extinct when the Gaeltacht still exists, is it?
True but nobody in the Gealtacht speaks it soley any more.If that were the case they could not function outside it.

Whoa.... what a warped sense of education you have.

The purpose of school is to educate not to churn out 'good little workers'.

From a social-survival point of view, I completely disagree. Educated citizens are what society wants. "Good little workers" are what society needs.

.
If it was taught like French, Spanish or German is then the 'hatred' of learning it would go.
I hated French.

Okay, seriously, a language isn't only about word strings. A language is a distinct way of putting a view on the world into words, and therewith every language inherently preserves the culture it stems from. By learning a language (thoroughly), you unconsciously learn about the way its ancient speakers saw the world.

Therefore learning your old language might as well be a good part of forming your identity. And of learning about your environment. Which are two parts of school education as well.

Don't get me wrong I like the native Irish language.I am someone who can speak it fluently but there is now a question on whether it is no longer necessary to keep it as a compulsary subject in our schools.I was just wondering what makes a language obsolete.I feel that it should be a choice to learn any language that is not your first tounge.And considering that there are so few speakers left prehaps it is time to let it go...

I'm trying to learn it right now, and it's not easy. Not the language as such, after all I've barely started, but finding a course for it.
As everybody growing up in Ireland has already learned some of it at least in school, there seem to be no courses available for adults wanting to learn the language. I finally found a self learn course by an American publisher...

The original attempt was not only to keep Gaelic from dying out, but also to get more and more people to speak it, in order to revive the language. I'm not sure, but I don't really think that the number of native speakers has increased much, people just learn it at school and then use it for a laugh when they're on vacation in the West. At best, it has slowed down the decline of the language in areas that still spoke it as first language.
It's a beautiful language all right, but it would seem to me that it is in fact dying out, slowly but surely. Trying to keep it alive by making it compulsory at school is not going to stop that. I would make sure that the language is offered, but I wouldn't force students to learn it any more.

I suppose my real point is: Are we holding onto it out of a need of cultural identity.Prehaps is should be placed in the same catagory as latin or greek.

From a social-survival point of view, I completely disagree. Educated citizens are what society wants. "Good little workers" are what society needs.
Just not those with the ability to think then....

I'm trying to learn it right now, and it's not easy. Not the language as such, after all I've barely started, but finding a course for it.
As everybody growing up in Ireland has already learned some of it at least in school, there seem to be no courses available for adults wanting to learn the language. I finally found a self learn course by an American publisher...

The original attempt was not only to keep Gaelic from dying out, but also to get more and more people to speak it, in order to revive the language. I'm not sure, but I don't really think that the number of native speakers has increased much, people just learn it at school and then use it for a laugh when they're on vacation in the West. At best, it has slowed down the decline of the language in areas that still spoke it as first language.
It's a beautiful language all right, but it would seem to me that it is in fact dying out, slowly but surely. Trying to keep it alive by making it compulsory at school is not going to stop that. I would make sure that the language is offered, but I wouldn't force students to learn it any more.
Or we use it abroad as the 'secret language'.Or here to insult the tourists.;)

I suppose my real point is: Are we holding onto it out of a need of cultural identity.Prehaps is should be placed in the same catagory as latin or greek.

Not quite. These language are REALLY dead... Gealic isn't yet. It might experience another survival, but that shouldn't be dictated by the government, it should come out of the desire of the population to actually speak the language.

Personally speaking, I think it's important to stay in touch with one's heritage and culture. In a world which is becoming ever more globalized, it is hard to keep culture intact. Don't get me wrong, in most aspects I think globalization is a good thing, but I mourn the death of culture. I'm not fluent in Gaelic, but I truly wish I was, and I'm learning. I don't believe in the concept that someone is more or less Irish because of their knowledge of the language.

But you bring up a good point with this. I can see this exact debate a ways down the road, when they're talking about German or French or Italian. Maybe even English. At some point, one language will just take over and leave no use for the others.

Whoa.... what a warped sense of education you have.

The purpose of school is to educate not to churn out 'good little workers'.

We educate people in how to be good capitalists. Knowing a language like gaelic or welsh is pointless. its just flogging a dead horse. If you learn french you can talk to french people. learn gaelic and you can talk to other english speakers who have also learned it. there is no point teaching a language that wont help anyone comminicate.

Not quite. These language are REALLY dead... Gealic isn't yet. It might experience another survival, but that shouldn't be dictated by the government, it should come out of the desire of the population to actually speak the language.
You a case in point.You desire to learn the language because for you it does not have negitive conotations.Most irish people spend 14 years learing something that they , at the time, find no use for.It harbours contempt of the very thing the government is trying to promote.

. learn gaelic and you can talk to other english speakers who have also learned it.

Sorry... what? Non-Anglo's learn it too you know.

Personally speaking, I think it's important to stay in touch with one's heritage and culture. In a world which is becoming ever more globalized, it is hard to keep culture intact. Don't get me wrong, in most aspects I think globalization is a good thing, but I mourn the death of culture. I'm not fluent in Gaelic, but I truly wish I was, and I'm learning. I don't believe in the concept that someone is more or less Irish because of their knowledge of the language.

But you bring up a good point with this. I can see this exact debate a ways down the road, when they're talking about German or French or Italian. Maybe even English. At some point, one language will just take over and leave no use for the others.
Prahaps you should hear the governments latest idea of only allowing fluent irish speakers buy houses in the gaeltacht.

Any way goto go so I leave you with this

Cad a dheanfaimid feasta gan adhmad?
Ta deireadh na gcoillte ar lar
Nil tracht ar Chill Chais na a teaghlach
'Sni chluingfear a cling go brach
An ait ud 'na gconaidh an deabhean
Fuair gradamis meidir thar mna
Bhiodh iarlai ag tarraingt thar toinnann
Is an taifreann binn a ra.

Ni chluinim fuaim lachan na ge an
Na fiolar ag eamh cois cuan
Na fiu na mbeacha chun saothair
A thabharfadh mil agus ceir don slua
Nil ceol binn milis na hean an
le hamharc an lae ag dul uainn
Na an chuaicin i mbarrana gcraobh an
o 's i chuirfeadh an saol chun suain

Aicim ar Mhuire is ar Iosa
Go dtaga si aris chugainn slan
Go mbeidh rinci fada ag dul timpeall
Ceol fidili is tinte cnamh
Go dtogtar an baile seo ar sinsear
Cill Chais brea aris go hard
Is go breach no go dtiocfaidh an dile

We educate people in how to be good capitalists. Knowing a language like gaelic or welsh is pointless. its just flogging a dead horse. If you learn french you can talk to french people. learn gaelic and you can talk to other english speakers who have also learned it. there is no point teaching a language that wont help anyone comminicate.

A language is not just a means of communication. It can provide a healthy national identity. Moreover it can give you an insight into how people think.
For example, "tá fearg orm", translated directly into English means "anger is on me" (I'm angry). It shows that people knew that emotions come and go. You are not "angry", at the moment you just feel angry and it will pass.
Moreover, bi-lingualism has a positive effect on your cognition.

We educate people in how to be good capitalists. Knowing a language like gaelic or welsh is pointless. its just flogging a dead horse. If you learn french you can talk to french people. learn gaelic and you can talk to other english speakers who have also learned it. there is no point teaching a language that wont help anyone comminicate.

What he said, mostly. The point in teaching it would be if someone enjoyed learning it. At some point it ceases to be function and becomes form.

IMO, this issue is why so many schools fail children today. They're trying to do too much. There is a certain set of data, concepts, and talents that every child must possess in order to survive and thrive in modern society. Teaching that core set to every student should be the ultimate priority. Teaching them anything else - even something that makes people feel warm and fuzzy culturally - should not.

History is nice to know. Knowing how to operate computers so you can go look it up if you want is crucial.

Trigonometry is nifty. Having and being able to apply sound financial management principles so you don't - of sheer ignorance of the consequences - rack up a mountain of unmanageable debt in your early twenties is vital.

Singing is wonderful (on key, anyway). Being able to use sound public speaking and debating principles is necessary.

Writing poetry, plays and novels feeds the soul. Being able to express oneself on paper well enough to impress a future employer can guarantee the paycheck that feeds the body.

Driving, exercise, healthy eating habits... I could go on and on. Breadth is a noble goal, but because we're trying so hard to achieve it, depth has gotten totally lost. We're skimming everything, even the vital stuff. There is simply too much information available to us all, thanks to modern technology, for schools to even make a decent pass at covering it all. That's unacceptable. For all our sakes, we need to make sure that our focus remains on those skills that ensure students' survival.

DISCLAIMER: I am commenting on my participation in, and knowledge of, the US educational system. Other systems may vary. Void where prohibited.

You need to know history so that we don't make the mistakes of those that have gone before us. We need literature to expand our mind as it were. The "arty" type subjects need to be taught so that we can think. Pumping kids full of merely practical lessons to know how to use a computer etc, is pointless if they fail to have the capacity to really think, to analyse and apply their practical intelligence in a logical fashion.

You need to know history so that we don't make the mistakes of those that have gone before us. We need literature to expand our mind as it were. The "arty" type subjects need to be taught so that we can think. Pumping kids full of merely practical lessons to know how to use a computer etc, is pointless if they fail to have the capacity to really think, to analyse and apply their practical intelligence in a logical fashion.

Hear, hear.

Don't get me wrong I like the native Irish language.I am someone who can speak it fluently but there is now a question on whether it is no longer necessary to keep it as a compulsary subject in our schools.I was just wondering what makes a language obsolete.I feel that it should be a choice to learn any language that is not your first tounge.And considering that there are so few speakers left prehaps it is time to let it go...


Well, one good thing would come of it... Ireland would be one step closer to being English :D.

Really though, Linguists like to preserve language, categorically, so you wont find too many who agree to "let her die."

We need literature to expand our mind as it were. The "arty" type subjects need to be taught so that we can think. Pumping kids full of merely practical lessons to know how to use a computer etc, is pointless if they fail to have the capacity to really think, to analyse and apply their practical intelligence in a logical fashion.

There are opportunities for analytical exercise in the course of studying practical subjects. Thinking, analysis and application are by no means confined to the arts or to literature.

I am not advocating the cessation of these subjects. I am advocating making survival subjects core and compulsory, and other subjects less so in order to make room for them.

When it comes to the Celtic languages I think it is more a matter of preservation of culture than usefulness of the language. I for one love swearing at my English friends in Welsh;)

There are opportunities for analytical exercise in the course of studying practical subjects. Thinking, analysis and appication are by no means confined to the arts or to literature.

I am not advocating the cessation of these subjects. I am advocating making survival subjects core and compulsory, and other subjects less so in order to make room for them.

I am inclined to agree with you, but it depends on what "practical subjects" mean. As regards relationships etc, would you rather learn English or Finance?
As regards conflict resolution would you rather learn history/politics or Computers?
Its a mixture of both, but "practicalities" are useless if you don't have true intelligence to drive them.

Languages can die when people stop speaking them... but the influence of a language can't really die, so long as words are transferred from that so-called "dead" language to a living, breathing language.

For instance, Latin is no longer a native language anywhere... nobody grows up speaking Latin as their first language (right?).

But Latin lives on through French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Romanian... all of which are based on Latin (and if you can get around different pronunciations, are really quite alike).

Some Latin made its way into German... and of German begat English.

So Latin's influence can be seen in six major languages and Romanian. hehe

There are opportunities for analytical exercise in the course of studying practical subjects. Thinking, analysis and application are by no means confined to the arts or to literature.

I am not advocating the cessation of these subjects. I am advocating making survival subjects core and compulsory, and other subjects less so in order to make room for them.

That way of thinking had me almost fail school, twice, in the past.
I've always been good at languages, history, art and social studies. But I've always been crap at math and physics. These two were (and as far as I know still are) considered "vital" subjects in Germany, as they have a rather broad field of application. Consequently, my good grades in all the other subjects couldn't make up for my bad grades in these two, as a direct result of which I almost couldn't go to university.
If anything, we ought to remove the label "vital" from anything but the basics and let people explore their talents and potential, rather than forcing them to learn something they will have no use whatsoever for in later life. Or do you honestly think I was ever asked to do calculus once I had left school???

Or do you honestly think I was ever asked to do calculus once I had left school???

EXACTLY!

It is obsolete, but teaching in in schools is either a way for the government to build up general public distate with the education system or a desperate means to keep the last remnants of a dead language alive (OK, it's probably the latter, but admit it, the former holds some sway). Seriously though, ever take a look at the new street signs? They've taken out words like bothar and put in words like rod (fada over the 'o') instead. My parents remember when the word for car was gluistean, not carr. At this stage, the language is a total cop out, no new words are being introduced for new technology, etc, just bastardising English words. Eiter you're going to do it right, or not bother, so choose goddamnit!

Oh, and another pet peeve of mine is how the teach it in schools. It should be taught as a foreign language, not introduced at the same level as English readers. The vast majority of Irish school kids start school with English as their first, and usually only language. To introduce this new language is confusing and doesn't get anyone anywhere. Seriously, I studies Irish for 14 years, French for 6, and I can say just as much in French as I can in Irish, in fact, a little bit more.

-- Peeved recent Irish scholar.

Thank-you. Everybody is different, if its vital for you to explore the more "hippy" subjects as opposed to quantum physics then you should not be forced to learn quantum physics.
On a side point, why should all education have to come from school. Surely kids' parents, or the child themselves can educate themselves beyond the curriculumn. In the 'good little workers' way of doing things the ability to actually think is negated by "practical" skills for which you've achieved a few letters to be added at the end of your name.
Great thinkers like Beckett, Shakespeare and dare I say it Bob Dylan would be lost in a system that forces them to meet a certain standard in the 'vital' subjects that just provide businesses with robotic skills.

I am inclined to agree with you, but it depends on what "practical subjects" mean. As regards relationships etc, would you rather learn English or Finance?
As regards conflict resolution would you rather learn history/politics or Computers?
Its a mixture of both, but "practicalities" are useless if you don't have true intelligence to drive them.

IMO, the basic question for determining priority ought to be: Does the average adult use this information or skill on a regular basis, OR would the lack of it be a significant hindrance in his life?

And, of course, people would debate the intricacies of the terms "average" and "significant". Blah, blah, blah.

Most upper-middle class students get the skills they need in high school or college, with the possible exception of financial management. This isn't really about them. It's about identifying, tagging and teaching vital facts, concepts, and skills - the ones most/all adults need - to all students before they leave high school. Those students who don't necessarily have good models at home, who don't go to college, who don't have a lot of advantages, etc. are short-changed by mandatory trigonometry high-school graduation requirements when the presence of those requirements means they'll be leaving school without basic credit card management abilities.

Students deserve a practical education. They should certainly be able to build upon it, but the core of their educational experience should be the things they'll really need and use.

It is obsolete, but teaching in in schools is either a way for the government to build up general public distate with the education system or a desperate means to keep the last remnants of a dead language alive (OK, it's probably the latter, but admit it, the former holds some sway). Seriously though, ever take a look at the new street signs? They've taken out words like bothar and put in words like rod (fada over the 'o') instead. My parents remember when the word for car was gluistean, not carr. At this stage, the language is a total cop out, no new words are being introduced for new technology, etc, just bastardising English words. Eiter you're going to do it right, or not bother, so choose goddamnit!

Oh, and another pet peeve of mine is how the teach it in schools. It should be taught as a foreign language, not introduced at the same level as English readers. The vast majority of Irish school kids start school with English as their first, and usually only language. To introduce this new language is confusing and doesn't get anyone anywhere. Seriously, I studies Irish for 14 years, French for 6, and I can say just as much in French as I can in Irish, in fact, a little bit more.

-- Peeved recent Irish scholar.

"To introduce this new language is confusing and doesn't get anyone anywhere".
Balls. piles of studies by psychologists prove the contrary, the cognitive beefits are undeniable.

"At this stage, the language is a total cop out, no new words are being introduced for new technology, etc, just bastardising English words".
Completely agree, and unfortunately it seems as if Irish is rapidly aligning itself with english, and this is part of the problem of Irish being compulsory in the Free State as people are not content with speaking it as they should be speaking it, and they are only speaking because they are forced to.
For example, "brat urlair" means carpet, now "carpéad" is more common, but if the language is developing that way what can you do?

"desperate means to keep the last remnants of a dead language alive".
In the past, yeah, it was dying. But I think it is being rejuvinated, especially here in the North were it is really taking off, despite the fact it isn't compulsory, and it is being taught at a better standard too.

I've always been good at languages, history, art and social studies. But I've always been crap at math and physics. These two were (and as far as I know still are) considered "vital" subjects in Germany, as they have a rather broad field of application. Consequently, my good grades in all the other subjects couldn't make up for my bad grades in these two, as a direct result of which I almost couldn't go to university.
If anything, we ought to remove the label "vital" from anything but the basics and let people explore their talents and potential, rather than forcing them to learn something they will have no use whatsoever for in later life. Or do you honestly think I was ever asked to do calculus once I had left school???

Er, I agree with this. Calculus and physics are no more "vital" to 99% of students than underwater basket weaving is. They should not be requirements. I was not trying to say otherwise.

I'm arguing that we should redefine "vital" to include information and abilities that average adults use. And that anything else either should not be compulsory, or should be so only in addition to those.

Don't get me wrong I like the native Irish language.I am someone who can speak it fluently but there is now a question on whether it is no longer necessary to keep it as a compulsary subject in our schools.I was just wondering what makes a language obsolete.I feel that it should be a choice to learn any language that is not your first tounge.And considering that there are so few speakers left prehaps it is time to let it go...

I think it should be encouraged. I used to receive Gaelic classes here in Scotland, and it is still spoken widely in the north - indeed, there are many people who speak nothing else, and many things are labelled accordingly. If anything, I'd like to see better teaching of the native language, as part of the national identity. And, more to the point, I'd have a better argument against my sister when she says that she's speaking 'Scottish' when in fact she's just pronouncing English really lazily. Iu could tell her to speak a proper Scottish language.
Like Gaelic.
Or, more funnily, Doric.

IMO, the basic question for determining priority ought to be: Does the average adult use this information or skill on a regular basis, OR would the lack of it be a significant hindrance in his life?

And, of course, people would debate the intricacies of the terms "average" and "significant". Blah, blah, blah.

Most upper-middle class students get the skills they need in high school or college, with the possible exception of financial management. This isn't really about them. It's about identifying, tagging and teaching vital facts, concepts, and skills - the ones most/all adults need - to all students before they leave high school. Those students who don't necessarily have good models at home, who don't go to college, who don't have a lot of advantages, etc. are short-changed by mandatory trigonometry high-school graduation requirements when the presence of those requirements means they'll be leaving school without basic credit card management abilities.

Students deserve a practical education. They should certainly be able to build upon it, but the core of their educational experience should be the things they'll really need and use.

I think what your argument is largely boiling down to is common sense. But can you really enstill common sense into a young person, or do they learn it themselves through experience?
PS,being able to use a computer or knowing how to open a bank account is essential but that can't fill a whole curriculumn.

I think what your argument is largely boiling down to is common sense. But can you really enstill common sense into a young person, or do they learn it themselves through experience?
PS,being able to use a computer or knowing how to open a bank account is essential but that can't fill a whole curriculumn.

People argue that schools should teach critical thinking. How is that so different from common sense? Not everyone will absorb it all. Is that a reason not to try?

In a nutshell, I'm saying we (society) need to redesign public education so that it better meets the needs of the children of this society. I believe the model is antiquated. I accept that some people here disagree with me.

People argue that schools should teach critical thinking. How is that so different from common sense? Not everyone will absorb it all. Is that a reason not to try?

In a nutshell, I'm saying we (society) need to redesign public education so that it better meets the needs of the children of this society. I believe the model is antiquated. I accept that some people here disagree with me.

Meet the needs the children of this society, or the fickle businesses of this society?

Meet the needs the children of this society, or the fickle businesses of this society?

Education should, first and foremost, enable children to lead productive and (to the extent possible) independent lives. Upon leaving high school, they should have in full measure the tools they need to either confidently and competently enter the society and the work force, or to pursue higher education. If they have other things too, great. If they don't have those, but they could have had them, then the system has failed them.

"To introduce this new language is confusing and doesn't get anyone anywhere".
Balls. piles of studies by psychologists prove the contrary, the cognitive beefits are undeniable.


Introducing a new language to a four year old, who's just gotten a decent enough grasp at his/her first language is asking for nothing but trouble, especially in the way that it;s being taught in Irish schools. At the same time I was being taught English reading and spelling, I was being taught the same words at the same level in Irish as I was in English. There was no introduction to the language, kids are just being thrown in at the deep end. As a result, kids get confused because it's difficult for them to distinguish properly, and English words get shoved in to Irish reading (mostly and substituted for agus). Fada's killed me for two years, could never remember which way around they went, and ever teacher I had gave me a hard time over it - you're supposed to know it, it's your native language. It's the method of teaching which instills a dislike of the language and lack of desire for adults to continue expanding their knowledge of the language after school.
If it was taught in the same way as French or German is taught to kids, Irish would be considered something cool. We learned a few words in German in primary school, and loved the fact that we knew them, and I do want to learn more German, even now. The wrong tactics are being used to teach it, and no one in the Board of Education seems to understand that.


"desperate means to keep the last remnants of a dead language alive".
In the past, yeah, it was dying. But I think it is being rejuvinated, especially here in the North were it is really taking off, despite the fact it isn't compulsory, and it is being taught at a better standard too.
[/QUOTE]
Even so, in the vast majority of the country, apart from a few pockets here and there (the Gaelteacht, Ring in Wtfd, etc), the general population has a hard time stringing a few sentences together. Parents desperately swot up using their kids Irish books, just so that they can help out with homework at night - I remember my mother doing it! It's great when you hear of it being revived in certain areas, but it's unlikely to see a country wide revival at any point, at least in the foreseeable future.

IMO, the basic question for determining priority ought to be: Does the average adult use this information or skill on a regular basis, OR would the lack of it be a significant hindrance in his life?

But how are early teens supposed to know that? Are we going to use pre-destination to say 'When X grows up, she'll be a computer sci.' or 'When Z grows up he'll be a businessman'?

Are we going to select children from a young age and groom them into specific career paths because 'society deems it best'?

Why don't we give them the option?

But how are early teens supposed to know that? Are we going to use pre-destination to say 'When X grows up, she'll be a computer sci.' or 'When Z grows up he'll be a businessman'?

Are we going to select children from a young age and groom them into specific career paths because 'society deems it best'?

Why don't we give them the option?

Probably the best way to do things is to make all students study all the regular subjects up until a certain point, then make all subjects elective. Then you'll get people who are good with languages keep them up, people good at maths and science keep those subjects up, etc, and no one has to worry about burning out students before they finish school. Seriously, 7 subjects for leaving certificate, I sat 16 papers, (2 for English, Irish and Maths, one for each science subject and French, two aural exams, two oral exams, one written art paper, one craft paper, and one imaginative composition paper - 13 of those happened in a three week period). I never use art, French, Irish, English, I'm a physicist, so maths, chemistry and physics came in handy. If I'd gotten a chance to concentrate on those three, I would have aced the exams, but I spent all my time trying to scrape through French, Irish and art history and appreciation papers so those subjects suffered.
Having the option to drop languages would have suited me down to the ground, the left side of my brain has been on hiatus for the past 26 odd years...

its not fair why couldn't I as English,of Learnt Anglo-Saxon at School.

Don't get me wrong I like the native Irish language.I am someone who can speak it fluently but there is now a question on whether it is no longer necessary to keep it as a compulsary subject in our schools.I was just wondering what makes a language obsolete.I feel that it should be a choice to learn any language that is not your first tounge.And considering that there are so few speakers left prehaps it is time to let it go...

Can everyone who speaks Gaelic also speak English fluently?

Then it is redundant. Basically. Same with Welsh (and boy oh boy do i hate Welsh language purists, stuck up bastards with their airs and graces and their obsession about what is MERELY A FORM OF COMMUNICATION). If your identity, national or individual, revolves around your language you have an issue - and thats speaking as a proud Welshman who thinks that in many ways Welsh was a beautiful and poetic language but who given the choice between (a) being able to communicate with the vast majority of the globe or (b) talking to a few inbred hillfarmers in fucking Ceredigion WHO I COULD SPEAK TO WITH OPTION (a) ANYWAY...will always choose option (a).

Any human language is a tool. Once it ceases to be the most useful tool, it should not be retained for petty nationalistic reasons (as is, of course, the reason De Valera and his backward looking, paternalistic government and their inheritors placed it as compulsory on the curriculum in Ireland).

Can everyone who speaks Gaelic also speak English fluently?

Then it is redundant.

Then what is the point in learning any other language then?

Then what is the point in learning any other language then?

To speak to people who can't speak a language you are conversant with fluently.

I'd have thought that was the essential point i was making?

Er, I agree with this. Calculus and physics are no more "vital" to 99% of students than underwater basket weaving is. They should not be requirements. I was not trying to say otherwise.

I'm arguing that we should redefine "vital" to include information and abilities that average adults use. And that anything else either should not be compulsory, or should be so only in addition to those.

You see, instruction on "vital" things the average adult uses was more or less complete by 7th grade (age 13).
After that, secondary education focuses on sciences and art not as subjects that have direct practical value (such as the ability to shop in an English-speaking country, or to tell apart edible mushrooms from poisonous ones, or to calculate decimals), but as general education, in Germany with the clear aim of preparing students for university.

The decision on what's "vital" will always be arbitrary at best. Germany (or at least Bavaria) assumes that "vital" includes all languages, maths, physics and chemistry. All other subjects are secondary. There's a certain logic behind that, it can't be denied. And yet it tends to do more harm then good. If you have a student who's brilliant at history, and intends to study it and pursue a career in that field, why force him to pass chemistry or maths? If you have a student who's a brilliant mathematician, why force him to pass English and German?

It is obsolete, but teaching in in schools is either a way for the government to build up general public distate with the education system or a desperate means to keep the last remnants of a dead language alive (OK, it's probably the latter, but admit it, the former holds some sway). Seriously though, ever take a look at the new street signs? They've taken out words like bothar and put in words like rod (fada over the 'o') instead. My parents remember when the word for car was gluistean, not carr. At this stage, the language is a total cop out, no new words are being introduced for new technology, etc, just bastardising English words. Eiter you're going to do it right, or not bother, so choose goddamnit!

Oh, and another pet peeve of mine is how the teach it in schools. It should be taught as a foreign language, not introduced at the same level as English readers. The vast majority of Irish school kids start school with English as their first, and usually only language. To introduce this new language is confusing and doesn't get anyone anywhere. Seriously, I studies Irish for 14 years, French for 6, and I can say just as much in French as I can in Irish, in fact, a little bit more.

-- Peeved recent Irish scholar.
The bastardisation of a language or the evolution of a language?The french and spanish have been peeved with that question for years.Franglais and spanglish are seen to be destroying languages and are activly discouraged but in irish they seem to be encouraged.Go figure!!

Then what is the point in learning any other language then?

Considering that almost everyone who speaks Gaelic can speak English and do speak English to each other...

While considering that there are other languages where native speakers of that language cannot speak any other language and even if they can, it's not necessarily the same...

Every Irishman can or is expected to speak english as far as I know. Some can speak Gaelic too.

Not every Frenchmen have an alternative language the whole of France could use. Everybody can or is expected to speak French, in France.

Not every Frenchmen have an alternative language the whole of France could use. Everybody can or is expected to speak French, in France.
Don't tell that to the Basques or certain prople from Brittany.;)

Or the Corsicans for that matter;)

Or the Corsicans for that matter;)
They might get all napolionic on you.He was a little corsican.Imagine what a big one might do.*shudder*:)

Gaelic should be retained and taught at every possible levels, there is no reason why Europeans should be monolingual, would not a greater variety of languages be benefit? as regards Eire the potential loss of even the Galetachts would be cultural disaster especially when you see how the Welsh language is revived and expanding, surely its should be a matter of pride in your origins to retain what is for the national tongue of irish culture, surely it can be no substitute to not read the irish myths in gaelic (ulster cycle, etc).


They might get all napolionic on you.He was a little corsican.Imagine what a big one might do.*shudder*:)


Nice place Corsica, as for big Corsicans the only ones i saw where the French Foreign Legionnaires based there (dunno if they were corsicans).

Gaelic should be retained and taught at every possible levels, there is no reason why Europeans should be monolingual, would not a greater variety of languages be benefit? as regards Eire the potential loss of even the Galetachts would be cultural disaster especially when you see how the Welsh language is revived and expanding, surely its should be a matter of pride in your origins to retain what is for the national tongue of irish culture, surely it can be no substitute to not read the irish myths in gaelic (ulster cycle, etc).





Nice place Corsica, as for big Corsicans the only ones i saw where the French Foreign Legionnaires based there (dunno if they were corsicans).
But should it be mandatory??If so then why not Ulster Scots???It is a language of Eire afterall..

But should it be mandatory??If so then why not Ulster Scots???It is a language of Eire afterall..

yes if the language is endangered which i suppose Gaelic is, but then when i think about it if the the majority of people really cannot be bothered ( such as in the case of Ulster Scots) then maybe not, but i must say it would be a shame for Gaelic to fade into an academic language like Latin, Classical Greek, etc.

yes if the language is endangered which i suppose Gaelic is, but then when i think about it if the the majority of people really cannot be bothered ( such as in the case of Ulster Scots) then maybe not, but i must say it would be a shame for Gaelic to fade into an academic language like Latin, Classical Greek, etc.
One could make the argument that compulsary irish actually does more harm than good as it breeds contempt for the language.

One could make the argument that compulsary irish actually does more harm than good as it breeds contempt for the language.

In which case it would have to be revoked as compulsory, is Irish taught at primary level or at secondary school as a compulsory language?

In which case it would have to be revoked as compulsory, is Irish taught at primary level or at secondary school as a compulsory language?
It is taught at both and is a requirment for a citizen to sit in their final exams.

well im learning irish now.. and im crap at it, i could be good.. but id fail everything else.. the problem is, im having to divert my energy and time to ensureing that i stay i pass irish, and am not moved down to foundation.. if i do foundation for the leaving cert its hard to get into a college where i can learn things im really interested.. i believe that it should be voulintary. i wish i could speak it fully.. but with it being mainly useless its hard to want that fully. i dont believe that if the landguage goes that ireland will be less irish somehow.. or that it will be more "english" if 800 years of occupation and penal laws still ended up in a free ireland , i dont see how making the language voulintary is going to endanger our national identity i just hope my kids , if they grow up here in ireland just dont have to learn it.. so they can concintrate on maths or english or history .. or some very important science classes..

well im learning irish now.. and im crap at it, i could be good.. but id fail everything else.. the problem is, im having to divert my energy and time to ensureing that i stay i pass irish, and am not moved down to foundation.. if i do foundation for the leaving cert its hard to get into a college where i can learn things im really interested.. i believe that it should be voulintary. i wish i could speak it fully.. but with it being mainly useless its hard to want that fully. i dont believe that if the landguage goes that ireland will be less irish somehow.. or that it will be more "english" if 800 years of occupation and penal laws still ended up in a free ireland , i dont see how making the language voulintary is going to endanger our national identity i just hope my kids , if they grow up here in ireland just dont have to learn it.. so they can concintrate on maths or english or history .. or some very important science classes..
You are case in point of having compulsary Irish breeding contempt of the language.Believe me though when you don't have to learn it anymore it is easier to take an intrest in it.

You see, instruction on "vital" things the average adult uses was more or less complete by 7th grade (age 13).

I wish that happened in the US. :) Instead, the entire pre-collegiate educational system is structured like your secondary school:

After that, secondary education focuses on sciences and art not as subjects that have direct practical value (such as the ability to shop in an English-speaking country, or to tell apart edible mushrooms from poisonous ones, or to calculate decimals), but as general education, in Germany with the clear aim of preparing students for university.

In the US, the goal is to prepare every student to go to university, whether they want/ought to go to university or not. And since the first 2 years of any standard 4-year university degree program in the US system is for some flipping reason more of the same, every student ends up spending (counting all primary grades) 15 years on his or her "general education," before he or she gets the joy of immersion in the subject of choice. (For 2 years only, assuming no grad school.)

And half of them still can't balance a checkbook. Hence my rant. ;)