NationStates Jolt Archive

Everything MUST have a reason correct? When you go get an ice cream cone (I admit it's an infantile example) it (generally) has an exact reason. When man first evolved even atheists agree there was a reason. He adapted to tough climate, and so his genetic structure changed...BINGO! When we ask how did Earth got here we (generally) say it was a broken off piece of a star which was attraced by the sun's gravity, begin to orbit, then cooled off. We (generally) say the universe begin with the "big bang." I do not deny any of this. BUUUUUUUUUT... Even the Big Bang HAD to have a reason. It would not just "happen." Atheists must agree that everything has a reason. Does creation? It must. I hereby state that God must have created the universe...for a reason of course... "Why does he exist?" You ask... Well...that's beyond science. I do not expect everyone to belive this argument...that would be insane. But, even if you're not convinced, you to admit...it's a good argument. Well if you don't like "reason" we'll say cause. You gotta see that as true.

No, everything doesn't have to have a reason... simply because some things cannot be explained and have to be accepted as true in an axiomatic sense. Also, true randomness does not have a reason.

However, God can neither be definitely proven nor definitely disproven. It's up to the individual to decide for themselves what is best.

Hey, nobody said science and religion have to be mutually exclusive beliefs. Which is exactly what Thomas Aquinas said, IIRC

What makes you think everything needs a reason?

No, everything doesn't have to have a reason... simply because some things cannot be explained and have to be accepted as true in an axiomatic sense. Also, true randomness does not have a reason.

However, God can neither be definitely proven nor definitely disproven. It's up to the individual to decide for themselves what is best.
http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/g_d.jpg

YOU CALLED?

Agreed. Humans have not figured out how something was created from nothing. However, that does not mean that there exists a "God" as the name implies, simply a higher power that created something. That still doesn't prove in the slightest, that there is some mystical being that knows what we do, and we have to constantly please so we can be satisfied with the illusion that we'll go someplace good after death.

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/g_d.jpg
YOU CALLED?
First of all, God gave humans free will to let them *choose* to believe in him or not. The fact that you, "God," have now revealed yourself destroys the concept of free will in your belief. So therefore, as to preserve my free will and not believe in some imposter, I assert you are an imposter!

EDIT: Oh yea, you spell your name as if you are the "G-d" of the Jewish faith. Yet you post an image of yourself. IIRC God is not depicted as having a physical form much in the Jewish faith, so that's another strike for you

Well...I myself do not truly belive in free-will...

well darlin' let me ask you some questions that you wont bother to answer

your logic has revealed that someone named "god" created the universe...


just who IS this god?

is he all powerful, all knowing, all loving?

did he create the universe on purpose or was it an accident

did he create the exact universe he wanted?

is he still alive?

is he the ONLY god?

where did this god come from?

did he start the universe with the idea in mind that earth would some day exist and that YOU would some day exist?

does this god have a plan for you? is he somehow running the earth?

does he have a certain religion he wants us to follow? does he care if we dont?

is there a heaven, a hell, an afterlife of any kind?

it seems to me that deciding that some being had to have started the universe is as irrelevant to the question of human religion as the big bang is to human evolution.

There is no reason to assume that only God can create universes. It is just as likely that one of hundreds of other possible explanations that have nothing to do with God, or at least the kind of God you're thinking of.

Everything MUST have a reason correct? When you go get an ice cream cone (I admit it's an infantile example) it (generally) has an exact reason. When man first evolved even atheists agree there was a reason. He adapted to tough climate, and so his genetic structure changed...BINGO! When we ask how did Earth got here we (generally) say it was a broken off piece of a star which was attraced by the sun's gravity, begin to orbit, then cooled off. We (generally) say the universe begin with the "big bang." I do not deny any of this. BUUUUUUUUUT... Even the Big Bang HAD to have a reason. It would not just "happen." Atheists must agree that everything has a reason. Does creation? It must. I hereby state that God must have created the universe...for a reason of course... "Why does he exist?" You ask... Well...that's beyond science. I do not expect everyone to belive this argument...that would be insane. But, even if you're not convinced, you to admit...it's a good argument. Well if you don't like "reason" we'll say cause. You gotta see that as true.

I'm afraid the Cosmological argument is terrible.

You're effectively creating an infinte regress of cause and effect and then calling up God as a necessary existant to start it all. The point is that if we are willing to accept that God can exist without a cause then why can't we accept the Universe as our necessary existant? It is easier to accept that the Universe is a necessary existant because we know for a fact that it exists whereas God is purely speculation.

10/10 for effort though.

what created matter?

what made said matter move?

these are the questions!

you don't just have space and then, poof, all of a sudden, matter appears... without someone/thing creating it.

and if that matter is stationary (although it might be floating, given that it's in space), it cannot simply move itself toward other pieces of matter... so what made the matter move?

I have to go with the whole "why does evrything have to have a reason" point.

Though I do agree that there could be a god. Just I dont see any evidence for im, and so therefore dont believe in him.

Not that he could be proved to exist or not exist either way ever.

well darlin' let me ask you some questions that you wont bother to answer

your logic has revealed that someone named "god" created the universe...


just who IS this god? "God is...God.

is he all powerful, all knowing, all loving? Yes, Yes, Yes.

did he create the universe on purpose or was it an accident On purpose. or we're screwed.

did he create the exact universe he wanted? Yes.

is he still alive? He created time, so he is not affected by it.

is he the ONLY god? Before the beginning there was ether NOTHING or...the one...not many.

where did this god come from? He invented places, so...

did he start the universe with the idea in mind that earth would some day exist and that YOU would some day exist? Yes.
does this god have a plan for you? is he somehow running the earth? Mmm, Yes.

does he have a certain religion he wants us to follow? does he care if we dont? Everything is the way he want's it, so...

is there a heaven, a hell, an afterlife of any kind? Yes, though it's hard to go into. In MY belives there is reincarnation, and karma.

it seems to me that deciding that some being had to have started the universe is as irrelevant to the question of human religion as the big bang is to human evolution.--?-- There, I answerd all your questions cowboy.

Everything MUST have a reason correct? When you go get an ice cream cone (I admit it's an infantile example) it (generally) has an exact reason. When man first evolved even atheists agree there was a reason. He adapted to tough climate, and so his genetic structure changed...BINGO! When we ask how did Earth got here we (generally) say it was a broken off piece of a star which was attraced by the sun's gravity, begin to orbit, then cooled off. We (generally) say the universe begin with the "big bang." I do not deny any of this. BUUUUUUUUUT... Even the Big Bang HAD to have a reason. It would not just "happen." Atheists must agree that everything has a reason. Does creation? It must. I hereby state that God must have created the universe...for a reason of course... "Why does he exist?" You ask... Well...that's beyond science. I do not expect everyone to belive this argument...that would be insane. But, even if you're not convinced, you to admit...it's a good argument. Well if you don't like "reason" we'll say cause. You gotta see that as true.
Questioning the reason for the existance of a hypothetical deity is no more beyond science than claiming that the cause of the universe is necessarily an intelligent being or force. Also, I don't agree with you that everything must have a cause. Everything that is caused must have a cause. Therefore, there must be at least one thing which does not have a cause (otherwise our causation would continue ad infinitum.) This does not, however, prove that the set of uncaused things is in any way singular or intelligent. By even the most loose definition God, (with a capital G {god with a lower case g would merely imply an object of worship.}) must be singular (in at least some sense of the word singular) and intelligent (in at least some sense of the word intelligent.) Since you have merely shown that something must have caused the Big Bang (assuming that the Big Bang itself is not a member of the set of uncaused things), and have not shown in any way what the nature of that cause might be, you have not shown that God exists.

Just the other day I bought an Ice Cream Sandwich because a butterfly flapped it's wings in Africa.

you don't just have space and then, poof, all of a sudden, matter appears... without someone/thing creating it.

Freaky huh?

and if that matter is stationary (although it might be floating, given that it's in space), it cannot simply move itself toward other pieces of matter... so what made the matter move?

Gravity. Try putting two floating objects in a bath of water. They'll be drawn together by gravity.

Everything MUST have a reason correct? When you go get an ice cream cone (I admit it's an infantile example) it (generally) has an exact reason. When man first evolved even atheists agree there was a reason. He adapted to tough climate, and so his genetic structure changed...BINGO! When we ask how did Earth got here we (generally) say it was a broken off piece of a star which was attraced by the sun's gravity, begin to orbit, then cooled off. We (generally) say the universe begin with the "big bang." I do not deny any of this. BUUUUUUUUUT... Even the Big Bang HAD to have a reason. It would not just "happen." Atheists must agree that everything has a reason. Does creation? It must. I hereby state that God must have created the universe...for a reason of course... "Why does he exist?" You ask... Well...that's beyond science. I do not expect everyone to belive this argument...that would be insane. But, even if you're not convinced, you to admit...it's a good argument. Well if you don't like "reason" we'll say cause. You gotta see that as true.
Yo're confusing reason and cause, and getting the "watchmaker" fallacy in there too.

The watchmaker fallacy is basically that we design things to fit our needs, and this universe fits our needs pretty well, so it must have been designed, right?

Wrong. The only reason we are here is because we are a product of the universe. Every little coincidence of physics, chemistry and biology that put us here is a coincidence. If it wasn't so, we wouldn't be here to debate it, would we? So us thinking that the universe fitting us proves that there is a god is getting things hopelessly backwards, rather like a puddle thinking the hole it fits into was designed for it (to borrow an analogy from Douglas Adams).

I'd recommend that you read the Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins.

There, I answerd all your questions cowboy.
well thank you, *wink*. ive asked these questions many times and i dont think any OP has ever bothered to answer them.

so how does the logic of "there must be a god who created the universe" lead to "it must be the god i believe in"?

there are holes in the big bang and all other scientific theories, it's because there are no holes in the god theory that makes me not believe truly in it. There are no holes in the story of god becuase where there was one, someone instituted a fake story, at least we can prove with scientific reasoning that all of these things did happen. Why did it happen? who (or what?) started the chain? that's just another hole we have to fill, and i for one, do not wish to fill it with a story.


but other than that, nice thread, very enlightening :)

i forgot to answer your question, it went from "there must be a god" to "it must be my god" because of the tyrannical nature of humans, not to mention the territorial nature...just look at Henry the VIII....lol he thought the world revolved around him and England.

SNIP


1) it wouldn't be a who it would be a what

2) my life is okay so I guess that he does have a soft spot for a clumsy loser with way too much porn for one man to handle

3) I'm not sure I would like to know that I was an accident but I guess that is more plausible (since most accidents happen in the workplace :D )

4) I guess not since God hasn't had much practice (what with making things and all)

5) ah but was God alive in the first place?

6) *shrug* I guess its just God, Michel Jackson and Mrs God (because even God gets lonely)

7) magic ;)

8) I hope so because that would be sweet if all of you existed for me

9) if he does he certainly isn’t a master strategist I can tell you now

10) Jesus seems too but then again he’s a stroppy teenager and a noob

12) be patient you’ll find out soon enough

Freaky huh?



Gravity. Try putting two floating objects in a bath of water. They'll be drawn together by gravity.
Just to let you know, that experiment won't work. The tiny random motion of the water would have a greater affect then the gravitational forces between the two objects (unless we're talking about a very big bath tub.) Nevertheless, I totally agree with your main point that gravity exists.

Everything MUST have a reason correct? When you go get an ice cream cone (I admit it's an infantile example) it (generally) has an exact reason. When man first evolved even atheists agree there was a reason. He adapted to tough climate, and so his genetic structure changed...BINGO! When we ask how did Earth got here we (generally) say it was a broken off piece of a star which was attraced by the sun's gravity, begin to orbit, then cooled off. We (generally) say the universe begin with the "big bang." I do not deny any of this. BUUUUUUUUUT... Even the Big Bang HAD to have a reason. It would not just "happen." Atheists must agree that everything has a reason. Does creation? It must. I hereby state that God must have created the universe...for a reason of course... "Why does he exist?" You ask... Well...that's beyond science. I do not expect everyone to belive this argument...that would be insane. But, even if you're not convinced, you to admit...it's a good argument. Well if you don't like "reason" we'll say cause. You gotta see that as true.
So, just out of interest, can it be assumed that Chimpboy Dubya (a man who denies the evil theory of evolution so zealously that he's begun to revert to an earlier form of life), Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson all arrived at God through the application of logic and a process of elimination? How about Jim Jones and Osama Bin Laden or the Ayatollah?

I have never seen a good logical argument for the existence of a Diety, and I've never seen a good one to disprove a Diety either. The fact is, if it were so easily done, someone else would have tripped over it in the few thousand years that the question has been up in the air.

I don't get how people cannot accept that matter and energy came from nothing, but God was able to come from nothing and create the universe. Can anyone explain that to me?

1) it wouldn't be a who it would be a what

2) my life is okay so I guess that he does have a soft spot for a clumsy loser with way too much porn for one man to handle

3) I'm not sure I would like to know that I was an accident but I guess that is more plausible (since most accidents happen in the workplace :D )

4) I guess not since God hasn't had much practice (what with making things and all)

5) ah but was God alive in the first place?

6) *shrug* I guess its just God, Michel Jackson and Mrs God (because even God gets lonely)

7) magic ;)

8) I hope so because that would be sweet if all of you existed for me

9) if he does he certainly isn’t a master strategist I can tell you now

10) Jesus seems too but then again he’s a stroppy teenager and a noob

12) be patient you’ll find out soon enough
not that i have any interest in your theology but do you feel that the logic of "someone started the universe" leads directly to your rather unusual beliefs?

Just to let you know, that experiment won't work. The tiny random motion of the water would have a greater affect then the gravitational forces between the two objects (unless we're talking about a very big bath tub.) Nevertheless, I totally agree with your main point that gravity exists.

I apologise, that was the example given to me by my old physics teacher and my science is a little rusty. GCSEs seem a long time ago...

Everything MUST have a reason correct? When you go get an ice cream cone (I admit it's an infantile example) it (generally) has an exact reason. When man first evolved even atheists agree there was a reason. He adapted to tough climate, and so his genetic structure changed...BINGO! When we ask how did Earth got here we (generally) say it was a broken off piece of a star which was attraced by the sun's gravity, begin to orbit, then cooled off. We (generally) say the universe begin with the "big bang." I do not deny any of this. BUUUUUUUUUT... Even the Big Bang HAD to have a reason. It would not just "happen." Atheists must agree that everything has a reason. Does creation? It must. I hereby state that God must have created the universe...for a reason of course... "Why does he exist?" You ask... Well...that's beyond science. I do not expect everyone to belive this argument...that would be insane. But, even if you're not convinced, you to admit...it's a good argument. Well if you don't like "reason" we'll say cause. You gotta see that as true.


No, everything does not have to have a reason. "To the paranoid mind, everything signifies something" - Umberto Eco. Actually, most things, and most of existence, is random, completely meaningless, chaotic, farcical and quite bleak.

Just how i like it.

Everything MUST have a reason correct? When you go get an ice cream cone (I admit it's an infantile example) it (generally) has an exact reason. When man first evolved even atheists agree there was a reason. He adapted to tough climate, and so his genetic structure changed...BINGO! When we ask how did Earth got here we (generally) say it was a broken off piece of a star which was attraced by the sun's gravity, begin to orbit, then cooled off. We (generally) say the universe begin with the "big bang." I do not deny any of this. BUUUUUUUUUT... Even the Big Bang HAD to have a reason. It would not just "happen." Atheists must agree that everything has a reason. Does creation? It must. I hereby state that God must have created the universe...for a reason of course... "Why does he exist?" You ask... Well...that's beyond science. I do not expect everyone to belive this argument...that would be insane. But, even if you're not convinced, you to admit...it's a good argument. Well if you don't like "reason" we'll say cause. You gotta see that as true.

I generally agree with your basic philosophy... with some exceptions. Science dictates that the universe is the end result of cause and effect, essentially one giant mathematical equation working itself out. If you follow that thought to its source, you come to the question of what the original cause is, in your cause and effect chain.

One must draw one of 2 conclusions; either that the universe somehow started from nothing, and the first cause in the chain of events 'just happened', or that the universe has always 'just been'. Both seem to contradict accepted logic, and the principles upon which our scientific worldview is based.

However...

We are only barely beginning to understand the way the universe works. Drawing the conclusion that it must have been 'God' that started it all, is ruling out a myriad of possibilities. Take a look at the Ouija board for example. When people are playing it, and the 'viewpiece' (or whatever the hell it's called) makes the appearance of moving on its own. Many people therefore claim that the miraculous is happening, and it proves the existence of ghosts.

Those people are making the same logic jump that you are. They are assuming that one thing is happening, when there could be many other explanations, such as the idea that someone is deliberately screwing with them, they are moving the piece subconsciously, or that perhaps their minds are being controlled by Alien brainwaves. You see where I'm getting at...

The one thing that Science and Faith can agree on, is that the universe is a fascinating, and sometimes mysterious place. The difference between them, is that Science tries to discover the answer by observation and reflection on the physical universe, while Faith throws all of that out the window, and chooses to believe that there is something beyond the physical universe that can explain it.

There is a much better way to postulate the existence of a "God" through logic. Several, in fact. Two of my favourites are the "Extended Subjectivity" and the "Universal Systemity" arguments.

If you've ever checked out Descartes' stuff, he uses a form of Extended Subjectivity God to escape from his Evil Demon postulate. That is, if reality is merely a series of perceptions, there exists something that is creating these illusions; that we can ourselves strongly influence this sense of perception implies that whatever is creating these images is benevolent to us, if not actually a part of our self. God, in this sense, is essentially the Heightened Self - that part of us that is responsible for generating and maintaining this sense of "reality".

The Universal Systemity God is more or less a verbose form of Pantheism based on the notion of biological Emergence. The thinking goes something like:
All life exists as a result of built-up components.
The congregation of these components produces something that is greater than their simple sum. A cellular structure can be said to have both a body and a "spirit", where the spirit is an expression of the ways in which the components can interact.
If this is a universally applicable law, then it is theoretically possible to build up everything in the universe into a single abstraction.
This abstraction comprises of everything, plus the "spirit" that Emerges from the interactions of all of this matter.
This "spirit" is what we call God.
Since it includes, as its members, human beings - whose degree of "spirit" has resulted in self-awareness, it is reasonable to suggest that God may also posess a sense of "self".
Just as the human sense of "Self" can "influence" its component parts, so too can the God Consciousness "influence" reality. However, it needs to do so through those parts of it which can communicate, as it has no direct control over physical matter.
As a being with a sense of self-awareness, humanity can conceptualise this "God" in relation to what it already has experience with. Hence, most modern religions provide a God Personification.
Being aware of this "God", mankind finds the most resonant explanation in these religions that place it on his own level.

Well, I thought it was neat. ^^;

If you want to talk abut everything having a "reason" of some kind, that argument has been played to death by philosophers, particularly Jean-Paul Sartre, the founder of existentialism. Aside from Nietzsche, Camus, and countless others who can help to refute the notion of "god," Sartre spent a great deal of time working on the notion of "existence precedes essence." Check out "Being and Nothingness" or any other of his books and speeches and you'll see that you have no argument, that is, of course, if you can open your mind...

Everything MUST have a reason correct? When you go get an ice cream cone (I admit it's an infantile example) it (generally) has an exact reason. When man first evolved even atheists agree there was a reason. He adapted to tough climate, and so his genetic structure changed...BINGO! When we ask how did Earth got here we (generally) say it was a broken off piece of a star which was attraced by the sun's gravity, begin to orbit, then cooled off. We (generally) say the universe begin with the "big bang." I do not deny any of this. BUUUUUUUUUT... Even the Big Bang HAD to have a reason. It would not just "happen." Atheists must agree that everything has a reason. Does creation? It must. I hereby state that God must have created the universe...for a reason of course... "Why does he exist?" You ask... Well...that's beyond science. I do not expect everyone to belive this argument...that would be insane. But, even if you're not convinced, you to admit...it's a good argument. Well if you don't like "reason" we'll say cause. You gotta see that as true.

What's God's reason? If God "doesn't need a reason," why does the universe?

The statement "all effects must have causes" is derived from empirical observation in the post-Big Bang era. We think it is true because we observe phenomena today that correspond to that rule. Because we have no way of knowing what existed before the Big Bang, we cannot know what laws existed before it, and thus it's perfectly plausible that there, something like the Big Bang could have occurred ex nihilo, and without a cause.