NationStates Jolt Archive

I do. Do you?

I do. Do you?
Did not.

Did not.
Why?

Do you think there's waaaay to many Holocaust-related threads here?
(but to answer the OP's ?: yes)

Why?
why should I?

People, there are already two threads on this (one is, according to it's op, "a major screw-up").

Dude...the holocaust isnt debatable...its a fact. Its like, did I wake up this morning? Well, did I?

If you want to have a debate about the holocaust, I suppose you could debate the number 6 million and say that maybe more died, or maybe less died, but that begs the question....why?

why should I?
Yes. Why do you think the holocaust never happened?

Dude...the holocaust isnt debatable...its a fact. Its like, did I wake up this morning? Well, did I?

If you want to have a debate about the holocaust, I suppose you could debate the number 6 million and say that maybe more died, or maybe less died, but that begs the question....why?
It is a conspiracy theory. They are all wrong. How do you know you woke up?

Why are we speculating about something that definitely happened?

What if I said that the American Revolution never happened and we're still under the rule of the British?

Yes. Why do you think the holocaust never happened?
why do you think it did?

Why are we speculating about something that definitely happened?
What if I said that the American Revolution never happened and we're still under the rule of the British?
B-but, they've revoked our independence (http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/jokes/bljokeindependence.htm)!! :eek:

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/g_d.jpg

YES. BECAUSE THE JEWS ARE MY CHOSEN PEOPLE. THEY WERE CHOSEN TO SUFFER AND PUMMEL ME WITH CRIES OF "OY VEY!"

EITHER THAT OR I JUST FORGOT TO MAKE SURE THAT HITLER DIED DURING WWI. TAKE YOUR PICK.

I think it did happen but "did" is not a word I would use

I would posts some weird findings on holocaust evidence and even set up a separate debate as too why birds don't fly over death camps but these threads make a habit of breaking down into endless pages of random NS’ers making the same hate filled comment over and over again about how anyone who doesn’t believe in the holocaust should die

It happened. It happened as much as I breath every second I live. You can't ignore survivors accounts, accounts of Allied troops who found the death camps and gas-chambers and the hundreds of thousands of corpses in pits, railroad cars and in the camps themselves. Nor can you ignore the branding of the survivors arms in such a numerical order, nor the almost anal detail the Nazi's put into their paperwork into the massacres.

Oh it happened, but it is entirely possible that less were killed than reported and that the events are exaggerated. After all, it was the end of the war and the NAZIS were low on supplies. The camps would be in bad shape just like everything else in Germany.

Anyway, that isn’t the issue. The issue is that it is being exploited by Zionists and American politicians backing the American Military, the only groups that have anything to gain by an exaggerated holocaust.
...but that begs the question....why?
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry."~ Thomas Paine

Oh it happened, but it is entirely possible that less were killed than reported and that the events are exaggerated. After all, it was the end of the war and the NAZIS were low on supplies. The camps would be in bad shape just like everything else in Germany.
Considering that they begun the Holocaust as they were losing battles, the conclusion is that they made "supplies" available (ie: the gas, of no use otherwise). Considering that victims were considered cattle feeding the economy throughout their short lives, they themselves were supplies. Considering that many people died of criminal neglect, "lacking supplies" (which were never a concern for Nazis) should have increased the number of people killed (and it did).
Your "point" is bogus.

Considering that they begun the Holocaust as they were losing battles, the conclusion is that they made "supplies" available (ie: the gas, of no use otherwise). Considering that victims were considered cattle feeding the economy throughout their short lives, they themselves were supplies. Considering that many people died of criminal neglect, "lacking supplies" (which were never a concern for Nazis) should have increased the number of people killed (and it did).
Your "point" is bogus.
You didn't even address my point.

If I say no I'll go to jail. But I do think it happened. There was no Photoshop back in those days, and just look at population figures, FCOL. Somewhere between 1940 and 1945 6 million Jews disappeared!

While the numbers maybe debateable to a point (like whether 5.5 million Jews were killed, or 6 million, but that aint much of a debate) tha fact it happened is undeniable. Oh, and the slight variance in numbers is not evidence of the weakness of the evidence for it. Doesnt in any way reduce the effect it had on the European Jewish population, and other minority groups. Doesnt make it any less horrendous (sp?). The holocaust happened. Survivors, evidence given by others not-in the camps, the physical remains, and the Nazis own amazingly detailed records prove that. It happened. Anyone who denies it is either a moron, or trying to rehabilitate nazism.

There is a point about whether certain groups do try to play on the Holocaust, but I dont think it is something done by most Jews, mostly those that want to try and tie criticism of the actions of Isreal with anti-semitism (which in while some cases it is linked, is not most of the time).

You didn't even address my point.
You're right. I cannot function, nor be heard properly, in the realm of your "common sense" fantasy (ie: "less people were killed than is thought").

I do. Do you?

It's like posting a poll:-
"Are you a stupid fucktard?
(1) No
(2) Yes
(3) don't know"

I mean, yeah, did World War 2 happen man, or, was it, like, all filmed in Hollywood.

Come on, don't even allow Holocaust deniers the possibility to appear reasonable.

If I say no I'll go to jail. But I do think it happened. There was no Photoshop back in those days, and just look at population figures, FCOL. Somewhere between 1940 and 1945 6 million Jews disappeared!

Exactly. Where the hell did they go if not into the camps and gaschambers? Disneyland?

It's like posting a poll:-
"Are you a stupid fucktard?
(1) No
(2) Yes
(3) don't know"

I mean, yeah, did World War 2 happen man, or, was it, like, all filmed in Hollywood.

Come on, don't even allow Holocaust deniers the possibility to appear reasonable.
so do you think it happened?

so do you think it happened?

I voted yes, not because i "think" it happened, but because i bona-fide know it did.

End.

If I say no I'll go to jail. But I do think it happened. There was no Photoshop back in those days, and just look at population figures, FCOL. Somewhere between 1940 and 1945 6 million Jews disappeared!
There are other techniques of doctoring a photo than photo shop.
You're right. I cannot function, nor be heard properly, in the realm of your "common sense" fantasy (ie: "less people were killed than is thought").
As I said in my post, that isn't the main issue. The problem is that the Holocaust is exploited.

Not to mention, that the Gypsies, who lost more per-capata population than even the most liberal Jewish casualty estimations, are rarely even mentioned. Even if it happened exactly as the history books say it did, it is still used as a tool of the Zionists and supporters of American neo-imperialism.

Well my great-uncle saw a couple of the camps and was screwed up for the rest of his life.

An ex-coworker was in Europe near the end of the war and his Sargent would kill any German he found with a death head on his sleeve. His reason, he saw a camp.

It's like posting a poll:-
"Are you a stupid fucktard?
(1) No
(2) Yes
(3) don't know"

and that people is why I avoid these threads

Not to mention, that the Gypsies, who lost more per-capata population than even the most liberal Jewish casualty estimations, are rarely even mentioned. Even if it happened exactly as the history books say it did, it is still used as a tool of the Zionists and supporters of American neo-imperialism.

So considering Germans were rather meticulous in their records; where are these numbers?

and that people is why I avoid these threads

because you are a stupid fucktard or because you aren't?

because you are a stupid fucktard or because you aren't?

Hmm? Trying to get yourself banned for flaming?

Hmm? Trying to get yourself banned for flaming?

No, that was me asking whether he believed it happened or not...referencing my own response to the original post and his reply yadda yadda.

Come to think of it, if the holo indeed did happen, that would explain the scientifically proven, unusually high, resistance to toxic vapors inherent in present-day jews and gypsies.

yes, it happened.

no, i wasn't there to witness it.

but we have Nazi documents outlining it and its (sickening) effectiveness... and we have the pictures/film.

why do you think it did?
Auschwitz, Dachau, etc. The remains are there for all to see. And why else would the European Jew population have suddenly plummeted by six million over a few short years?

Come to think of it, if the holo indeed did happen, that would explain the scientifically proven, unusually high, resistance to toxic vapors inherent in present-day jews and gypsies.

I don't think you particularly need to use anything as spurious as that psuedo-science to prove it. Just, you know, say "pre-war there were x jews in Poland. Post-war there were y". Repeat throughout all occupied Europe.

Come to think of it, if the holo indeed did happen, that would explain the scientifically proven, unusually high, resistance to toxic vapors inherent in present-day jews and gypsies.

Me thinks you have been smelling vapors a little too long.

Auschwitz, Dachau, etc. The remains are there for all to see. And why else would the European Jew population have suddenly plummeted by six million over a few short years?
So many reasons...maybe they went to south america, covering their tracks in such an elaborate manner?

So many reasons...maybe they went to south america, covering their tracks in such an elaborate manner?

...

That's obviously a joke...so why did you vote that it didn't happen?

If I say no I'll go to jail. But I do think it happened. There was no Photoshop back in those days, and just look at population figures, FCOL. Somewhere between 1940 and 1945 6 million Jews disappeared!
They all went on Holiday. And then stayed there. Without telling anyone.

They all went on Holiday. And then stayed there. Without telling anyone.

They turned off their answering machines.

They turned off their answering machines.

They left the wrong forwarding address for their mail.

6 million times.

So many reasons...maybe they went to south america, covering their tracks in such an elaborate manner?
Yes, they did. They sat there with Mengele and Eichmann, and spoke of the good old times. But then, in a drunken brawl, Eichmann defended himself from a Jewish attack. The Jews could not forget the humiliation. So, they brainwashed him and imprisoned him in Israel. There, he gave lengthy testimony about things which never happened. But Mengele didn't suffer that fate: he, as always, was nice to the children, and the little ones begged their parents to let him live.

I know it happened Because Lots of my family were there you fucking fuckers.

:sniper: :mp5: All deniers should be punnished just for being stupid. By being beaten everyday at about 2Pm 230pm something like that. Eastern standard time. The only people who deny it happened live 1,000's of miles away or were not alive at the time.

He has a point.

They left the wrong forwarding address for their mail.

6 million times.
It happens.

It happens.

Yeah, to be honest, i remember when i was on holiday once with the entire ancient Mayan civilization. They gave me their address so i could pop in and see them if i ever was in Pre-Columbian Mexico, but i think they must have got the street number wrong. Never saw them again.

Was pretty cut up about it actually, the girl 300,000 to the left, just behind the guy in the huge feather head-dress was quite hot and giving me the eye.

People. I think humour is almost always god, and jokes can and should be made of almost anything. Religions and politics especially.

But not this.

"They went to South America", "They turned off their answering machines".

Death of these millions of innocent people is really one of the very few issues I do not think jokes should be made of. Including the usually forgotten Gypsies and gays just as well as the Jews, but also the Poles, Yugoslavians, Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainians, French, British, German and members of all those countless nationalities that died without their own fault.

To think there are people ready to laugh at this makes me sick.

I know it happened Because Lots of my family were there you fucking fuckers.

:sniper: :mp5: All deniers should be punnished just for being stupid. By being beaten everyday at about 2Pm 230pm something like that. Eastern standard time. The only people who deny it happened live 1,000's of miles away or were not alive at the time.
True, I shouldn´t be cracking jokes about this. But it eases the pain. You see, my grandfather actually died in one of those camps...

Yeah, to be honest, i remember when i was on holiday once with the entire ancient Mayan civilization. They gave me their address so i could pop in and see them if i ever was in Pre-Columbian Mexico, but i think they must have got the street number wrong. Never saw them again.

Was pretty cut up about it actually, the girl 300,000 to the left, just behind the guy in the huge feather head-dress was quite hot and giving me the eye.
The first Colony of Roanoke did something similar. They let the retarded guy leave their forwarding address behind, but all he did was write "Croatan" on a tree. No one could find them, which was really quite a shame because at least 25 of them "may already have been winners", according to the mail they were supposed to get.

People. I think humour is almost always god, and jokes can and should be made of almost anything. Religions and politics especially.

But not this.

"They went to South America", "They turned off their answering machines".

Death of these millions of innocent people is really one of the very few issues I do not think jokes should be made of. Including the usually forgotten Gypsies and gays just as well as the Jews, but also the Poles, Yugoslavians, Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainians, French, British, German and members of all those countless nationalities that died without their own fault.

To think there are people ready to laugh at this makes me sick.

I agree, and I'm not laughing. I can't speak for the others, but I'm openly mocking those who believe the Holocaust never occured by asking where those 6 Million Jewish people went if they didn't die, phrasing it in a mock comical manner to make it even more mocking.

Death of these millions of innocent people is really one of the very few issues I do not think jokes should be made of. Including the usually forgotten Gypsies and gays just as well as the Jews, but also the Poles, Yugoslavians, Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainians, French, British, German and members of all those countless nationalities that died without their own fault.
Three things:

It is passed the 22.4 years already. That makes it "not too soon" now.
Holocaust humour is among the best. Especially when you start to get into the really sick aspects of it.
We're not mocking the 'Caust, we're mocking the deniers
Your mom

Anyone who doesn't believe it happened should take a trip to Aushviwts.

Anyone who doesn't believe it happened should take a trip to Aushviwts.
Those who don't believe it may find that somewhat pointless. "hey lets go where that thing didnt happen"?????

What happened to the Poll? It went from 4 'No' people to '5' back to '4'. Much as I like seeing that happen, I didn't think you could change your result?

Three things:
blaablaablaa

I just watched the Schindler's list, sorry for sounding like someones mom.

I just watched the Schindler's list, sorry for sounding like someones mom.
No, "your mom" is the bonus point, it attends every set of three points and acts as the final part that concludes the argument in my favour.

I just watched the Schindler's list, sorry for sounding like someones mom.
Nothing like a little brain washing, eh?

Nothing like a little brain washing, eh?
In the words of a Gypsy acquaintance, that movie is "a fucking great comedy", but I think he is a bit odd in the head.

Every Denier that prattles on about it, is always a bigoted asswipe, who has a particular beef against the Jews, and claims Isreal runs the Universe.

These kinds of threads used to pop up all the time around here, when there were more Neo-Nazi Shitheads lurking about.
Funny thing is they were all so easy to debunk becuase so much evidence exists that can even be directly linked on the Net.
Most of the time..by simply Googling any information you wanted to disprove.

I remember myself and Lost Planet and several others in a particularly nasty Holocuast Denial thread.
The OP was alluding that if so many people had indeed been killed in Auschwitz-Birkenau II, that the amount of bone fragments, and ashes would have been staggering.
Oddly, I couldnt find any information about what was done with the ash, so I sent an e-mail to the Curator of the Auschwitz Birkenau Museum.
It came back within one day.

Seems the tons of ashes were thrown over farmland, and much also dumped directly in rivers.
The bone fragments also.

It also turns out that you can still see remnants of human ash at the Museum itself..even after 60 years.

No one is ever going to an ounce of proof that the Holocaust was in any way faked, or never happened at all.
To do so, is to deny solid, factual evidence.

Anyone who doesn't think the Holocaust happened is cold, heartless, irrational, ignorant, or in complete denial. But then again, there were people who believed Iraq had WMD's. . .

The only questions that can really be asked about the holocaust is whether it was closer to 5 million or 6.5 million, and how much of it was a concerted effort to kill jews, and how much of it was neglect and misuse.

http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.org/ieindex.html

It happened but people don't realize the good things that came from it.

Auschwitz, Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Natzweiler, Buchenwald and Ravensbrück
were all research camps, learning how much cold, heat, air pressure, etc. that a human body could take. These results were used to develop ways to prevent these problems and medical procedures.

Another example of a misunderstood research camp was the Japanese Unit 731, where they had huge medical advancements in vivisections that are still used to this day.

People need to stop focusing only on the bad things that happened and realize what leaps and bounds it advanced the medical world.

People need to stop focusing only on the bad things that happened and realize what leaps and bounds it advanced the medical world.
Ahem...that's an interesting way to put it.

Let me see...NO!

-snip-
And the "medical benefits" are here to help people, right? It's a good thing somebody killed 6 million people in order to help the human race.

If you post here to say it didn't happen you'd better not travel in Germany or Austria, or they'll chuck your nazi hide in jail

It happened. It happened as much as I breath every second I live. You can't ignore survivors accounts, accounts of Allied troops who found the death camps and gas-chambers and the hundreds of thousands of corpses in pits, railroad cars and in the camps themselves. Nor can you ignore the branding of the survivors arms in such a numerical order, nor the almost anal detail the Nazi's put into their paperwork into the massacres.


Apparently some can ignore all of the evidence. I almost pity them and the shame they should feel.

It happened but people don't realize the good things that came from it.

Auschwitz, Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Natzweiler, Buchenwald and Ravensbrück
were all research camps, learning how much cold, heat, air pressure, etc. that a human body could take. These results were used to develop ways to prevent these problems and medical procedures.

Another example of a misunderstood research camp was the Japanese Unit 731, where they had huge medical advancements in vivisections that are still used to this day.

People need to stop focusing only on the bad things that happened and realize what leaps and bounds it advanced the medical world.

So what inhumane "medical" treatments are you currently volunteering for?

I'm not in any condition that I need to be treated but if I did, I would get these so called "inhumane" medical treatments. For example, if I got a body part blown off, I would definitely enlisted the services of Unit 731.

It happened but people don't realize the good things that came from it.

Auschwitz, Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Natzweiler, Buchenwald and Ravensbrück
were all research camps, learning how much cold, heat, air pressure, etc. that a human body could take. These results were used to develop ways to prevent these problems and medical procedures.

Another example of a misunderstood research camp was the Japanese Unit 731, where they had huge medical advancements in vivisections that are still used to this day.

People need to stop focusing only on the bad things that happened and realize what leaps and bounds it advanced the medical world.
Yeah. Let's all have ourselves raped, tortured, gassed, expermineted on, and beaten, for the good of medicine! You're an idiot. And now, you are on my ignore list.

Yeah. Let's all have ourselves raped, tortured, gassed, expermineted on, and beaten, for the good of medicine! You're an idiot. And now, you are on my ignore list.

You are focusing on the negative outcomes. I agree that the negatives out weigh the positives but there is still positives present.

You are focusing on the negative outcomes. I agree that the negatives out weigh the positives but there is still positives present.
You're an idiot. But I like argueing, so your off my ignore list. Yeah let's see...they figured out how long a human can survive in a gas chamber. Idiot. Damned idiot.

It is a conspiracy theory. They are all wrong. How do you know you woke up?

You think that's air you're breathing right now?

I'm not in any condition that I need to be treated but if I did, I would get these so called "inhumane" medical treatments. For example, if I got a body part blown off, I would definitely enlisted the services of Unit 731.

Hypocrite. Those subjected to "medical" experiments during the Holocaust did not need treatment either. Yet, you seem to think it justifiable that they were "treated" anyway. You do not apply the same standard to yourself.

You're an idiot. But I like argueing, so your off my ignore list. Yeah let's see...they figured out how long a human can survive in a gas chamber. Idiot. Damned idiot.

They were testing to see the effect of gas on the human respitory system, which leads to advances in gas masks for their soldiers. The reasons for using humans is because the results from testing on animals would be unreliable.

Denying the holocaust has no positive effect in the world, it only allows it to happen again.

And yes.


And being ignorant of history also has no effect in the world, it only allows history to repeat. I don't want another dark ages or another civil-rights-less-corperate-fatcat-hellhole-like-the-late-1800s, and if more people studied history, they wouldn't either.

It's too bad many do, though.

They were testing to see the effect of gas on the human respitory system, which leads to advances in gas masks for their soldiers. The reasons for using humans is because the results from testing on animals would be unreliable.
And the sample was only reliable upwards of 5 million. Jee-sus, you sure are stupid!

They were testing to see the effect of gas on the human respitory system, which leads to advances in gas masks for their soldiers. The reasons for using humans is because the results from testing on animals would be unreliable.

What.

The.

Fuck.

They were testing to see the effect of gas on the human respitory system, which leads to advances in gas masks for their soldiers. The reasons for using humans is because the results from testing on animals would be unreliable.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,389491,00.html
That is not the sort of experiment you do. It's sadistic, and it really serves no practical purpose. They were testing the effects for military purposes of biological and chemical weapons. On innocent civilians.

It is a conspiracy theory. They are all wrong. How do you know you woke up?


omg! how do i know i woke up! i'm still asleep! (that explains what the baywatch cast is doing here....)
dude you are crazy. the Holocaust happened. or were the Nazis lying?

why do you think it did?
There's overwhelming evidence that supports the claim that the halocaust did happen. There is virtually none to suggest that it didn't

They were testing to see the effect of gas on the human respitory system, which leads to advances in gas masks for their soldiers. The reasons for using humans is because the results from testing on animals would be unreliable.
Yes, because they obvously gassed Jews for medical purposes. :rolleyes: Anyone read Rainbow Six by Tom Clancy? Reminds me of that.

What.

The.

Fuck.

QFT.

That is not the sort of experiment you do. It's sadistic, and it really serves no practical purpose. They were testing the effects for military purposes of biological and chemical weapons. On innocent civilians.
/ trying to eliminte jews. If they were just testin weapons, they wouldn't have needed to kill almost all of the jews in europe. The natzis performed all kinds of sadistic experiments for very twisted reasons.

Holocaust deniers remind me of 100 Years of Solitude...


Good book, dat is.

/ trying to eliminte jews. If they were just testin weapons, they wouldn't have needed to kill almost all of the jews in europe. The natzis performed all kinds of sadistic experiments for very twisted reasons.
Oh, I was talking the actual medical experiments, not the gassing. The gassing didn't serve any purpose except that it was cheaper and quicker than using bullets.

QFT.

I'm not quite familiar with that abbreviation.

People. I think humour is almost always god, and jokes can and should be made of almost anything. Religions and politics especially.

But not this.

"They went to South America", "They turned off their answering machines".

Death of these millions of innocent people is really one of the very few issues I do not think jokes should be made of. Including the usually forgotten Gypsies and gays just as well as the Jews, but also the Poles, Yugoslavians, Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainians, French, British, German and members of all those countless nationalities that died without their own fault.

To think there are people ready to laugh at this makes me sick.

sigh

read the posts again.

they are NOT making fun of people who died terrible deaths. they are mocking those who would deny it ever happened or claim that there is some "innocent" explanation for the missing 10+million people killed.

its good to mock holocaust deniers. they cant be given the respect implied by not showing them to be idiots. making fun of them makes it harder for the weakminded to be duped by their ridiculous arguments.

People. I think humour is almost always god, and jokes can and should be made of almost anything. Religions and politics especially.

But not this.

"They went to South America", "They turned off their answering machines".

Death of these millions of innocent people is really one of the very few issues I do not think jokes should be made of. Including the usually forgotten Gypsies and gays just as well as the Jews, but also the Poles, Yugoslavians, Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainians, French, British, German and members of all those countless nationalities that died without their own fault.

To think there are people ready to laugh at this makes me sick.

Thanks for forgetting Austrians.

But, no, they where being satirical.
A kind of humor (if so) being invented for this kind of opportunity. Hard but refreshing. There's a difference between sarcasm and satirism.

One has to bring his brain to understand.

I'm not quite familiar with that abbreviation.

quoted for truth

or quit fucking trolling

I think it's the former one though.

For everyone that is getting angry over what I said, I don't actually believe the words I wrote. I am bored and wanted to fire up some more arguing and debating in the thread. My grandfather was a polish POW at one of the smaller german concentration camps so I know that the holocaust did happen and it wasn't just for scientific research. Well, I can't say that there wasn't any research because the germans did learn how effective their weapons were and how they could prevent themselves from dying.

quoted for truth

or quit fucking trolling

I think it's the former one though.

I'm hoping it's the first one, because if it's the latter, I see no reason why it was even said.

I have spoken to Holocaust survivors. Several people in my (Jewish) high school are related to Holocaust victims (thank G-d all my relatives fled to the US during the Russian Revolution).

Did the Nazis test chemical weapons on Jews? Probably. The Nazis banned vivisection, but as Jews were not even animals, they were allowed to practice on concentration camp inmates.

Now, do I bear any emnity towards the German people for this? No.

Reason 1: People should not suffer for their ancestors' crimes.
Reason 2: Germany has attempted the impossible - to atone for the Holocaust. German rules against the Nazi party violate freedom of speech. A Nazi party would be legal in ISRAEL. They would not be legal in Germany. They also built the Jewish Museum in Berlin - if you ever visit Berlin, it is incredible. They have tried so hard to atone for the Holocaust, I can't hold the current Germany responsible for what they did 60 years ago.

I don't think it happened. I know it happened.

I have spoken to Holocaust survivors. Several people in my (Jewish) high school are related to Holocaust victims (thank G-d all my relatives fled to the US during the Russian Revolution).

Did the Nazis test chemical weapons on Jews? Probably. The Nazis banned vivisection, but as Jews were not even animals, they were allowed to practice on concentration camp inmates.

Now, do I bear any emnity towards the German people for this? No.

Reason 1: People should not suffer for their ancestors' crimes.
Reason 2: Germany has attempted the impossible - to atone for the Holocaust. German rules against the Nazi party violate freedom of speech. A Nazi party would be legal in ISRAEL. They would not be legal in Germany. They also built the Jewish Museum in Berlin - if you ever visit Berlin, it is incredible. They have tried so hard to atone for the Holocaust, I can't hold the current Germany responsible for what they did 60 years ago.

Well said. I agree that people should not treat Germans like criminals because of what their ancestor's did.

If the vivisection comment was in reference to my post, I said that Unit 731 practiced vivisection.

A Nazi party would be legal in ISRAEL.
That's bogus. Up to a couple of years back, you couldn't even hum Wagner in Israel.
I don't see why it is necessary to have a legal Nazi Party in order to fit into civilization.

That's bogus. Up to a couple of years back, you couldn't even hum Wagner in Israel.
I don't see why it is necessary to have a legal Nazi Party in order to fit into civilization.
Because the suppression of the freedom of speech is wrong. Better to out-reason an opponent then to prove that you are sensitive to their existence.

Because the suppression of the freedom of speech is wrong. Better to out-reason an opponent then to prove that you are sensitive to their existence.
So, you're saying that Germany is dictatorial and doesn't fit into civilization?

So, you're saying that Germany is dictatorial and doesn't fit into civilization?
...sigh. I am saying it shouldn't have to ban people from saying something. This isn't Weimar Germany. The conditions which allowed the Nazi party to come into power are gone. Germany does not ban Communism, despite what happened in the USSR. Nazism is not the only form of evil.

Oh, I was talking the actual medical experiments, not the gassing. The gassing didn't serve any purpose except that it was cheaper and quicker than using bullets.

Better for the morale of soldiers too.

...sigh. I am saying it shouldn't have to ban people from saying something. This isn't Weimar Germany. The conditions which allowed the Nazi party to come into power are gone. Germany does not ban Communism, despite what happened in the USSR. Nazism is not the only form of evil.
About communism, see the relevant thread. I have made my position clear there. I do not think that not banning communism is a double standard, and that is for various reasons. No, I am not communist.
As a parallel, I don't think that someone meaning to ban a newly founded Italian Fascist Party would carry the same weight (and, hell, reformed fascists are in government in Italy). I don't even think that it is necessary to ban the Nazis. But, if they're banned, I cannot begin to consider the state doing is any less democratic. As such, the topic does not imply "freedom-bashing" or whatever.

About communism, see the relevant thread. I have made my position clear there. I do not think that not banning communism is a double standard, and that is for various reasons. No, I am not communist.
As a parallel, I don't think that someone meaning to ban a newly founded Italian Fascist Party would carry the same weight (and, hell, reformed fascists are in government in Italy). I don't even think that it is necessary to ban the Nazis. But, if they're banned, I cannot begin to consider the state doing is any less democratic. As such, the topic does not imply "freedom-bashing" or whatever.
It's not less democratic, but it undermines the trust people put into free speech.

It's not less democratic, but it undermines the trust people put into free speech.
This "conflict" would only be between Nazis and the gvt. And Nazi commitment to free speech would be hillarious.
The German legal framework has chosen to consider staple references as incitement to hatred (cf. murder). All laws provide for punishment in instigation to violence, so there is no absolute free speech. The Germans have provided a limit for it that is nearer on this side or that.
It's like copyright, in a way. Or like that stupid game where you can say anything as long as you avoid using such and such word. That's why they still have a shitload of crypto-Fascist little groups in Germany. As a side note, I find it hillarious that, since Nazi symbols are banned, they resort to carrying flags of the Republic or Empire - both of which Hitler despised.

This "conflict" would only be between Nazis and the gvt. And Nazi commitment to free speech would be hillarious.
The German legal framework has chosen to consider staple references as incitement to hatred (cf. murder). All laws provide for punishment in instigation to violence, so there is no absolute free speech. The Germans have provided a limit for it that is nearer on this side or that.
It's like copyright, in a way. Or like that stupid game where you can say anything as long as you avoid using such and such word. That's why they still have a shitload of crypto-Fascist little groups in Germany. As a side note, I find it hillarious that, since Nazi symbols are banned, they resort to carrying flags of the Republic or Empire - both of which Hitler despised.
I agree with the punishment of instigation to hatred, when it is significant enough. In cases where it's merely the statement of an opinion that does not provoke hatred, I don't agree. Neo-nazis are a strange breed btw. :p

Well, my grandpa was in a concentration camp, i'd like to think he was telling us the truth when he said that. Though of course i would believe it happened without his story, i tend to believe mounds of historical evidence.

I don't think the Nazi party should be banned either because as much as i disagree with them, i believe strongly in freedom of speech, and if we ban them for speaking out, who's to say that one day we won't be banned for doing the same thing? Everything in this world is offensive to someone, i'm sure things i say offend some people just because they disagree with me. If we ban all the biggots from expressing their points of view, all that will be left is us. Personally, i would rather live in a society that allows them to speak out, while also allowing us to dissent to their opinion, than live in a society that doesn't allow anyone to speak. That being said, i don't think freedom of speech should be used to incite violence, but that's because i think we are only entitled to our freedoms when they don't infringe upon those of another.

Well, my grandpa was in a concentration camp, i'd like to think he was telling us the truth when he said that. Though of course i would believe it happened without his story, i tend to believe mounds of historical evidence.
....
Did he fall from the watchtower like my grandpa?

Yes, yes it did. I refuse to accept anything that tells me otherwise.

I do. Do you?

I've got 3 living gradparents who witnessed it to some extend.
My father's mother is still proud that she got that chandelier and the silver cutlery out of that "dirty rich Jew's" household when they were transported of.
Yup, that's my family, folks. :rolleyes:

Did he fall from the watchtower like my grandpa?


At least get the joke right cretin, otherwise it's just offensive and not funny.

As a person of Polish descent, I refuse to hear anything refuting the occurence of the Holocaust. To deny one of the most horrific atrocities in the history of the world just makes me seethe.

I have visited Dachau which is one of the starangest places on earth.The town itself is nice but, as Basil Fawlty said 'Don't mention the war'.Nobody I spoke to there was too willing to answer questions about the camp.But nobody apart from the skinheads protesting outside the main gate would deny it existed.Its very strange inside the camp.Very silent.I didn't believe the stories about birds not flying overhead before I visited but, it is true.My uncle who is very german admitted in private to me that he belived that these were not concentration camps but extermination camps.His basis for this were stories his father had told him.If anyone is in any doubt that these things did not happen please make an effort to visit these places.It should remove any doubt.

At least get the joke right cretin, otherwise it's just offensive and not funny.
Slippery watchtowers are in no way funny. They are dangerous and probably illegal.

Slippery watchtowers are in no way funny.

Evidently, neither are you.

Evidently, neither are you.
...which would be a problem if i did comedy for a living.

I agree with the punishment of instigation to hatred, when it is significant enough. In cases where it's merely the statement of an opinion that does not provoke hatred, I don't agree.
Well, my point was that, in order to avoid endless debates about what "instigation" is (and not only for that), the Germans have said: what if you just don't? Again, they don't ban the far-right from existing, they just ban it in that form. Kinda like "damnatio memoriae" - you use this or that word, a buzzer sounds and you go to jail.
Frankly, I see that as a perfectly valid solution.

PLUS: you are ignoring one major fact. Modern Germany exists as the antithesis of the IIIrd Reich. Since such crimes could be carried out in the latter, the new Germany was established AGAINST THE IDEALS OF A SIGNIFICANT PROPORTION OF ITS CITIZENS. It has taken over a burden, and questioning that burden is questioning the state itself.
Consider this: the state is made responsible for keeping the memory alive (maintaining camps as museums, sanctioning history textbooks, etc.). Since it is a democracy, what is to say that denial let loose would not win elections? Such a thing would MAKE THE STATE LEGISLATE AGAINST ITS EXISTENCE! I argue that no state should be asked, or expected, to do such a thing.

...which would be a problem if i did comedy for a living.


An irrelevant point but yes, I agree. If your life depended on you being funny, you would starve.

How many different ways can I say Yes...

I don't know that I woke up this morning and neither do I know the holocaust happened. But I believe myself when I say I woke up this morning and I believe you when you say the holocaust happened. The holocaust is true in the same way it is true that I woke up this morning.