NationStates Jolt Archive

CONTENT OF FROZEN CHICKEN DISGUSTS PUBLICAN


12:00 - 20 February 2006
Devon landlady Lyn Gooderham got more than she bargained for when she bought a frozen chicken at a supermarket. The 48-year-old, from Copplestone, near Crediton, was shocked to discover the bird she picked up at an Iceland store in North Devon contained remnants of its last meal, along with entrails and excrement.

Iceland has refunded her the price and promised to investigate how the chicken came to be on sale at the store.

Lyn, who owns the Cross pub in Copplestone, made the grim discovery as she was preparing the chicken as a special roast dinner for a pensioners' lunch club.

Her shock then turned to anger when the supermarket refused to send someone to her home to remove the bird, leaving her to drive it to Iceland's Exeter store in Sidwell Street

She said: "I cut it open and it still had entrails, excrement and undigested corn inside.

"I was absolutely horrified and really disgusted. It has put me off chicken for a long time and my husband said he would turn to beef instead.

"I won't be buying chicken at Iceland any more."

She added: "It was lucky I cut it in half to look or I might not have noticed until someone went to eat it.

"I saw it and thought it was good value as a grade A chicken with no giblets inside.

"I thought I would do a special half-roast with vegetables for the pensioners' club.

"If it had gone on the lunch menu and had been fed to an elderly 90-year-old, I can't imagine what would have happened."

Lyn said that when she phoned to complain, Iceland told her that the chicken could not be collected for a few days, so she returned it to the Exeter branch.

She added: "Surely Iceland has a commitment to customers and picking up something that isn't right is more important than delivering. Are there any more of these are out there?

"I said I couldn't keep it as it wouldn't look very good if a health and safety officer came in and found it in the kitchen."

The Exeter store has now dispatched the chicken to its head office for an investigation into the matter.

Nobody at Iceland headquarters was available to comment.
http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=137199&command=displayContent&sourceNode=136986&contentPK=14052099&folderPk=79934


First i hear about the KFC "Chicken 5" or whatever it's called and now this? Man I love chicken, but the stuff thats been coming out lately I am strongly reconsidering?

What's the big deal? Meat processing plants aren't perfect. One unprocessed bird got through. Shit happens.

What's the big deal? Meat processing plants aren't perfect. One unprocessed bird got through. Shit happens.

I just dont want shit happening on my dinner plate :p :)

I just dont want shit happening on my dinner plate :p :)
Good point, but unless the person was cooking with her eyes closed I don't see how she could have missed the fact that the guts and stuff were still in the chicken. There is no chance that such a bird would end up on your plate by accident.

Good point, but unless the person was cooking with her eyes closed I don't see how she could have missed the fact that the guts and stuff were still in the chicken. There is no chance that such a bird would end up on your plate by accident.


true but in any case i definitely wont be eating at KFC after hearing why they cant be called kentucky fried or kitchen fresh chicken anymore....

Next time I shopping for poultry in Iceland, I'll keep this in mind.

true but in any case i definitely wont be eating at KFC after hearing why they cant be called kentucky fried or kitchen fresh chicken anymore....
Why can't they be called Kentucky Fried Chicken?

Why can't they be called Kentucky Fried Chicken?
They can. (http://www.snopes.com/horrors/food/kfc.asp) They simply choose not to.

this was sent in an e-mail to me
- snip -

I hate to break it to you, but that's the way all chicken are kept.

Unless you get your poultry from the friendly small neighborhood farm or buy organic, that's exactly what you will get.

Devon landlady Lyn Gooderham[...]
Wow, something in Devon has happened that is not only newsworthy, but enough so that someone from America has heard the story. *starts singing Devon anthem, then realises we don't have one and becomes confused*

You guys are such overpampered silly people.

All animals have intrails. They all, before dying, probably ate a meal. They pooped. They walked around. They might (if old enough) have even had a chance to copulate before we turned them into hamberger helper. The idea that an animal having these things gross you out to the point that you wont eat it anymore is so funny.

Frankly, I don't see what the problem is. They usually remove the entrails before freezing, but you can easily remove them yourself. My mom used to buy fresh chicken from the local market and it came not only with entrails, but also legs and head. The only thing it didn't have was feathers. So she would just open the bird, take out the entrails, throw them away (except liver and heart, she liked those), cut the head and the legs, and throw the rest in a pot. Well, sometimes the legs too, they're not too bad.

EDIT: Sorry, where I wrote legs I meant feet, you know, with the authentic chicken fingers.

Lyn said that when she phoned to complain, Iceland told her that the chicken could not be collected for a few days, so she returned it to the Exeter branch.

She added: "Surely Iceland has a commitment to customers and picking up something that isn't right is more important than delivering. Are there any more of these are out there?


I've never heard of a store coming to a customer's home to allow them to return an item. I want to live in the same fantasy world this woman does.

What's the big deal? Meat processing plants aren't perfect. One unprocessed bird got through. Shit happens.My thoughts exactly. Having come from a farm I probably would have just finished the job and continued on with my meal preperation.

It's not like I haven't seen chicken entrails before ...

I didnt understand the outrage over this either.

The woman in the article seems to think that its the end of the world and a deliberate act to sicken or cheat her.

The gizzard/entrails should have been removed, but werent. It doesnt appear to have been a wide spread problem, more an isolated incident.

Swapping the "bad" chicken for a new one should put this heinous issue to rest.

I didnt understand the outrage over this either.

The woman in the article seems to think that its the end of the world and a deliberate act to sicken or cheat her.

The gizzard/entrails should have been removed, but werent. It doesnt appear to have been a wide spread problem, more an isolated incident.

Swapping the "bad" chicken for a new one should put this heinous issue to rest.
I think we can all agree that this woman is a pampered baby who thinks that meat is grown sans head and entrails.

First i hear about the KFC "Chicken 5" or whatever it's called and now this? Man I love chicken, but the stuff thats been coming out lately I am strongly reconsidering?
I prefer buying a live chicken and killing/cleaning it myself. Besides, it's fun to watch them run around in circles after you cut off their heads. :D

I think we can all agree that this woman is a pampered baby who thinks that meat is grown sans head and entrails.

Yeah. I think more people need to see their food in its natural form-not soley cleaned and trimmed and wrapped all pretty like meat grown in a petri dish.

If more people were more aware of the things that die to feed them, they'd appreciate it a little more and maybe not be gluttonous and wasteful.

Yeah. I think more people need to see their food in its natural form-not soley cleaned and trimmed and wrapped all pretty like meat grown in a petri dish.

If more people were more aware of the things that die to feed them, they'd appreciate it a little more and maybe not be gluttonous and wasteful.I agree. But now we are going to have someone start weeping about the deaths dealt to carrots and such...

I agree. But now we are going to have someone start weeping about the deaths dealt to carrots and such...


I have no problem with being a meat eater-or even vegetables and fruit, for that matter.
I have respect for food-I know that sounds funny, but no other way to describe it. I was raised not to be wasteful-we plan our shopping and meal prep-there is very little waste. I'm raising my kids to be the same way.

I prefer buying a live chicken and killing/cleaning it myself. Besides, it's fun to watch them run around in circles after you cut off their heads. :D
:eek: I'm calling PETA!

How many millions of chickens are sold in the western world every day?

Compare that to this one story...

If anything she should be disgusted in eating a corpse.

Getting disgusted that there are stuff inside the corpse is very lame. What did she think..that chickens grew out of trees ?

Yeah. I think more people need to see their food in its natural form-not soley cleaned and trimmed and wrapped all pretty like meat grown in a petri dish.

If more people were more aware of the things that die to feed them, they'd appreciate it a little more and maybe not be gluttonous and wasteful.
I have to agree totally. With the exception of fruit, everything you eat dies in order for you to eat it.

Growing up on a farm, I killed and butchered hundreds (maybe thousands) of chickens. Buying a chicken in the store and finding pin feathers and hair on it turns me off. My mother would have had a fit if we didn't have it totally clean. Because of that, I usually don't order chicken in a cafe. At home I rewash and scrape it.

It also makes me upset when I see people waste food. If you're not going to eat it don't take it. To me eating is a sacred thing. It just isn't right or moral to kill something then waste it.

I have to agree totally. With the exception of fruit, everything you eat dies in order for you to eat it.

Growing up on a farm, I killed and butchered hundreds (maybe thousands) of chickens. Buying a chicken in the store and finding pin feathers and hair on it turns me off. My mother would have had a fit if we didn't have it totally clean. Because of that, I usually don't order chicken in a cafe. At home I rewash and scrape it.

It also makes me upset when I see people waste food. If you're not going to eat it don't take it. To me eating is a sacred thing. It just isn't right or moral to kill something then waste it.
I was in Atlantic City Sunday. The next morning before driving home I decided to eat breakfast at the Howard Johnson's where I was staying. I saw a kid pile french toast and bacon from the breakfast buffet on his plate, go to his table and eat a little less than half of it.

When I was a kid my parents and the nuns in my catholic school told me that wasting food like that is a sin. People are starving around the world and others are throwing away enough food for two meals at a sitting.

I was in Atlantic City Sunday. The next morning before driving home I decided to eat breakfast at the Howard Johnson's where I was staying. I saw a kid pile french toast and bacon from the breakfast buffet on his plate, go to his table and eat a little less than half of it.

When I was a kid my parents and the nuns in my catholic school told me that wasting food like that is a sin. People are starving around the world and others are throwing away enough food for two meals at a sitting.

Thats what I mean about respecting food. Many people are gluttonous and eat twice what they need. Many people dont savor or appreciate food.
They take too much, eat too much and leave too much to waste.
I'm raising three kids that I hope will continue to respect and appreicate the food they have. We arent rich and we arent poor-we eat well.

Some people gobble continously and arent satisfied unless they are bursting.
Sooner or later, they pay the price-physically, mentally, etc...

I have no problem with being a meat eater-or even vegetables and fruit, for that matter.
I have respect for food-I know that sounds funny, but no other way to describe it. I was raised not to be wasteful-we plan our shopping and meal prep-there is very little waste. I'm raising my kids to be the same way.

Not-very-similar-but-vaguely-related idea: I don't like fur, but I wear a leather jacket because I'm pretty sure that a lot more of a slaughtered cow is used that a mink.

Not-very-similar-but-vaguely-related idea: I don't like fur, but I wear a leather jacket because I'm pretty sure that a lot more of a slaughtered cow is used that a mink.


I dont own or buy furs either. I dont protest it, but dont support it either.

Not-very-similar-but-vaguely-related idea: I don't like fur, but I wear a leather jacket because I'm pretty sure that a lot more of a slaughtered cow is used that a mink.

Ya, cows are useful animals. In school we have to go to the butchers and buy a cows heart when we're doing a dissection in science(and biology). They're big things. We're not allowed dissect eyes though.

Ya, cows are useful animals. In school we have to go to the butchers and buy a cows heart when we're doing a dissection in science(and biology). They're big things. We're not allowed dissect eyes though.
I had a crazy biology teacher who would bounce preserved cow eyeballs into other classrooms. He was pretty cool. His brother was the principal and let me get away with alot of juvenile crap too.

I prefer buying a live chicken and killing/cleaning it myself. Besides, it's fun to watch them run around in circles after you cut off their heads. :D


keep that up and pamela anderson will be knockin on your door with some PETA women.:p :D

keep that up and pamela anderson will be knockin on your door with some PETA women.:p :D
Does Pam still have the hep? If not then I don't think that would bother Eutrusca much.

Does Pam still have the hep? If not then I don't think that would bother Eutrusca much.


i never said it was a bad thing

Good thing the chicken in America isn't really chicken :p

If I had had them tell me this:
Lyn said that when she phoned to complain, Iceland told her that the chicken could not be collected for a few days
I would have left it out in the sun for until they came to collect it. Imagine the stench in their car!
Better yet, leave it for a week, then take it back and dump it on the counter.

If I had had them tell me this:

I would have left it out in the sun for until they came to collect it. Imagine the stench in their car!
Better yet, leave it for a week, then take it back and dump it on the counter.


I would have peed on the chicken too to add to the smell.

I would have peed on the chicken too to add to the smell.
ohhh you are nasty. Why not rub dogshit in it while we're at it.

This is why we wash chicken before we cook it, you know.

Don't be such a baby. You're eating a carcass, deal with it.

If I had had them tell me this:

I would have left it out in the sun for until they came to collect it. Imagine the stench in their car!
Better yet, leave it for a week, then take it back and dump it on the counter.


....she carried the chicken into her house and she was too pussy to want to carry it out? If that woman called and got pissed that I wouldn't come get a chicken because it had insides like a real bird I would fucking kick her in the jaw.

Animals are bloody and delicious. If you can't handle it you are clearly well off and pampered beyond belief. You don't see poor people bitch about what their food "looks" like.

As for the wasting food thing yea it's a shame. Although you should probably remember that those "starving people" aren't gonna benefit from the leftovers on your plate. Go help them if you are so concerned.

ahh the beautiful upsides to being vegan,
entrials arent the half of it, if you think your animals are healthy well fed shinning specimens, think again.
chickens get 1/2 a food of room to live their entire life on, to avoid accidental mutilation of the meat part systematic mutilation is used (de beaking) with not enough room for the chickens themselves there is even less room for workers to clean the excrements, this goes for all animals
by the way.. KFC oreders hundreds of rabits form my coworker's farm... you do the math

ahh the beautiful upsides to being vegan,
entrials arent the half of it, if you think your animals are healthy well fed shinning specimens, think again.
chickens get 1/2 a food of room to live their entire life on, to avoid accidental mutilation of the meat part systematic mutilation is used (de beaking) with not enough room for the chickens themselves there is even less room for workers to clean the excrements, this goes for all animals
by the way.. KFC oreders hundreds of rabits form my coworker's farm... you do the math

I think my animals are meat. Rabbit is pretty delicious. There is no upside to being a Vegan besides perhaps an early death from malnutrition. Wait, that was an upside for me...my bad.

ahh the beautiful upsides to being vegan,
entrials arent the half of it, if you think your animals are healthy well fed shinning specimens, think again.
chickens get 1/2 a food of room to live their entire life on , to avoid accidental mutilation of the meat part systematic mutilation is used (de beaking) with not enough room for the chickens themselves there is even less room for workers to clean the excrements, this goes for all animals
by the way.. KFC oreders hundreds of rabits form my coworker's farm... you do the math
What do you mean by this? It doesn't really make sense.
As for the rabbits thing. That doesn't surprise me. You know why KFC doesn't sell whole chickens? 'Cause they mostly use the ones that are deformed or mutilated.

ahh the beautiful upsides to being vegan,
entrials arent the half of it, if you think your animals are healthy well fed shinning specimens, think again.
chickens get 1/2 a food of room to live their entire life on, to avoid accidental mutilation of the meat part systematic mutilation is used (de beaking) with not enough room for the chickens themselves there is even less room for workers to clean the excrements, this goes for all animals
by the way.. KFC oreders hundreds of rabits form my coworker's farm... you do the math

Hundreds? What, are they going to start putting a lucky rabbits foot in the kid meals? As many units as KFC has, wouldnt it need substantially more than hundreds? Do they really use rabbits at KFC? Anyone got a link?

Duerfte ich Sie mal zu mir an die Beke Titten.

I think my animals are meat. Rabbit is pretty delicious. There is no upside to being a Vegan besides perhaps an early death from malnutrition. Wait, that was an upside for me...my bad.

malnutrition, you think you vegans ont eat well, if you go about it like an idiot, then yes you wouldn't get enough protein and iron, but it forces you to look it up, i am eating better then ever.
I also find pride in being able to say i dont support the commodification of animals, just visit www.peta2.ca and look around, its disgusting.
and its pretty easy to be vegan, soy milk has so many differant recipes,your bound to like at least one of them better then cow milk, there are egg substitutes that taste the same, theres seitan for meat replacer, 10 microwave will get you what tastes exactly like a juicy blood red steak, and no one died for it
and being a vegan is the greatest way to pick up a chick, example of a reoccuring scenario:
"tell me something about yourself"
"well, uhh, im vegan"
"ohh yaaa? so you dont eat meat?"
"nope"
"what about milk and eggs and stuff?"
"none of that stuff, its cruelty towards animals"
"ahh thats so cool"
then the conversation carries on from there
dont get me wrong, being vegan for personal gain is horrible, but it is an upside

and to answer your it doesnt make sense that they live on 1/2 square fot of room, well imagine your trapped in a prison, except you did nothing to deserve being there, in a 3x3 foot pen there ill be 20 chickens

and being a vegan is the greatest way to pick up a chick, example of a reoccuring scenario:
"tell me something about yourself"
"well, uhh, im vegan"
"ohh yaaa? so you dont eat meat?"
"nope"
"what about milk and eggs and stuff?"
"none of that stuff, its cruelty towards animals"
"ahh thats so cool"
then the conversation carries on from there
dont get me wrong, being vegan for personal gain is horrible, but it is an upsideyou can get exactly the same result with girls by simpling claiming to be a vegan without actually denying yourseves the joy of real steaks, eggs, lobsters, cheeseburgers... dont tell me the seitan/soy/beans/peas replacement products taste anywhere as good as the real stuff (plus they are more expensive).

malnutrition, you think you vegans ont eat well, if you go about it like an idiot, then yes you wouldn't get enough protein and iron, but it forces you to look it up, i am eating better then ever.
I also find pride in being able to say i dont support the commodification of animals, just visit www.peta2.ca and look around, its disgusting.
and its pretty easy to be vegan, soy milk has so many differant recipes,your bound to like at least one of them better then cow milk, there are egg substitutes that taste the same, theres seitan for meat replacer, 10 microwave will get you what tastes exactly like a juicy blood red steak, and no one died for it
and being a vegan is the greatest way to pick up a chick, example of a reoccuring scenario:
"tell me something about yourself"
"well, uhh, im vegan"
"ohh yaaa? so you dont eat meat?"
"nope"
"what about milk and eggs and stuff?"
"none of that stuff, its cruelty towards animals"
"ahh thats so cool"
then the conversation carries on from there
dont get me wrong, being vegan for personal gain is horrible, but it is an upside

I hope you are simply using PETA to link to pictures. If you are than you should probably put some sort of disclaimer in there to that effect. You sound like a semi-sane person that isn't a cold heartless bastard so I'll let you in on a little secret:

PETA is a truely heartless organization. They do not support medical research of any kind involving animals. That means that our wonderful little disease free life we have here would not be possible. No cancer or AIDS research no insulin or even the most basic medical advancement. To make this worse one of the higher ups (can't remember her name but you can look it up) actually uses insulin herself. This is against their own tenants but somehow it is ok for her and not for millions of other people that they don't have a personal interest in.

PETA also supports violence to stop medical research. This means destroying years of research into medicine that could save millions of lives for the sake of the few animals in the lab at the time. That is what you call placing the lives of humans below that of mice. There are proven links where PETA funds make it into the hands of terrorists.

PETA does not support any type of animal enslavement. Which basically means no pets or work animals of any kind. What is wrong with pets? Most of the supporters of PETA probably have pets but don't do their research. It goes without mention how selfish this is for countries and people who cannot afford machinery to do the work that animals do.

Bottom line: PETA puts animals above human life. That is insanity. Have a diabetic child and then see if you support PETA.

As for the other stuff you said I'm generally against diets that can only be attained by the rich (aka all the products you just mentioned which are more expensive than other ones using animal products). If you feel better about yourself because you don't eat meat and animal products good for you. The animals will keep dying.

you can get exactly the same result with girls by simpling claiming to be a vegan without actually denying yourseves the joy of real steaks, eggs, lobsters, cheeseburgers... dont tell me the seitan/soy/beans/peas replacement products taste anywhere as good as the real stuff (plus they are more expensive).

to that i answer:
"some of my otherwise brilliant and productive friends (like scoundrels and their flags) take final refuge in character assainations; they ignore the issue and deny the relation between our consumption and brutality. So you can go ahead and roll your eyes and marginalize me/socially penalize me: play on my insecurities. And you can feign ignorance, but you're not stupid, you're just selfish. And you're a slave to your impulse. And I kinda thought we all shared common threads in that we gravitated here to challenge the conventions we've been fed by a culture that treats (living, breathing, feeling) creatures like (biological) machines. And if you buy that shit then how long 'till it's me who serves as your commodity? Through (for example), institutionalized violence and opression of workers and women raped by sexism (and how about native americans?). Do you still insist on feigning indignance (aka: indignation) to reason? To collective self-interest? Tell you what- I'll call you on your shit, PLEASE CALL ME ON MINE. Then we can grow together and make this shit-hole planet better in time. So why not consider someone else: STOP CONSUMING ANIMALS."
APPARENTLY, I'M A "P.C. FASCIST" (BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT BOTH HUMAN AND NON-HUMAN ANIMALS) ~Propagandhi

malnutrition, you think you vegans ont eat well, if you go about it like an idiot, then yes you wouldn't get enough protein and iron, but it forces you to look it up, i am eating better then ever.
I also find pride in being able to say i dont support the commodification of animals, just visit www.peta2.ca and look around, its disgusting.
and its pretty easy to be vegan, soy milk has so many differant recipes,your bound to like at least one of them better then cow milk, there are egg substitutes that taste the same, theres seitan for meat replacer, 10 microwave will get you what tastes exactly like a juicy blood red steak, and no one died for it


your logic is somewhat flawed. most, if not all of the replacements for animal products you just listed take massive amounts more processing than the animal products themselves. That processing leads to more farming, which kills thousands upon thousands of animals in the fields(mice, rabbits, rats, etc.) and contributes more to pollution than the processing of the animal products, which in the end hurts us all, people and animals alike. If you really want to help, stop eating all that overprocessed bullshit, because in the end, you're probably not helping. go raw food to cut down on processing, or grow your own food and spare the lives of field animals, if you really care that much.

I'm an omnivour, by the way.

And you can feign ignorance, but you're not stupid, you're just selfish.i dont feign ignorance and yes, i am selfish, when i catch a lobster, i will be so selfish to kill it so i can eat it for my pleasure even though i could survive on beans if i only wanted (but lobster tastes better)And if you buy that shit then how long 'till it's me who serves as your commodity?you will not, because there is a fundamental difference between humans and animals: we are sentient. to claim that eating/using animals will in time lead to humans being abused is ridiculous.STOP CONSUMING ANIMALS.i dont want to, because, as you said, i regard them as (biological) machines. if a cow lives or dies, it doesnt matter, the cow does not have the potential in later life to have any impact on the world, it will not become a scientist or produce priceless works of art, it will just stand there and eat grass.
maybe animals feel pain, but plants too show reactions to stimuli, which can be interpreted as pain.

edit: just check out this Plants behave like humans (http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Plants-behave-like-humans-Don-Burke/2006/01/23/1137864854767.html)

malnutrition, you think you vegans ont eat well, if you go about it like an idiot, then yes you wouldn't get enough protein and iron, but it forces you to look it up, i am eating better then ever.
I also find pride in being able to say i dont support the commodification of animals, just visit www.peta2.ca and look around, its disgusting.
and its pretty easy to be vegan, soy milk has so many differant recipes,your bound to like at least one of them better then cow milk, there are egg substitutes that taste the same, theres seitan for meat replacer, 10 microwave will get you what tastes exactly like a juicy blood red steak, and no one died for it
and being a vegan is the greatest way to pick up a chick, example of a reoccuring scenario:
"tell me something about yourself"
"well, uhh, im vegan"
"ohh yaaa? so you dont eat meat?"
"nope"
"what about milk and eggs and stuff?"
"none of that stuff, its cruelty towards animals"
"ahh thats so cool"
then the conversation carries on from there
dont get me wrong, being vegan for personal gain is horrible, but it is an upside

Yeah, only problem is, soy milk makes me swell up and...well...die. I'd much prefer cow milk, thank you very much--I'm not to keen on swelling and death.

to that i answer:
"some of my otherwise brilliant and productive friends (like scoundrels and their flags) take final refuge in character assainations; they ignore the issue and deny the relation between our consumption and brutality. So you can go ahead and roll your eyes and marginalize me/socially penalize me: play on my insecurities. And you can feign ignorance, but you're not stupid, you're just selfish. And you're a slave to your impulse. And I kinda thought we all shared common threads in that we gravitated here to challenge the conventions we've been fed by a culture that treats (living, breathing, feeling) creatures like (biological) machines. And if you buy that shit then how long 'till it's me who serves as your commodity? Through (for example), institutionalized violence and opression of workers and women raped by sexism (and how about native americans?). Do you still insist on feigning indignance (aka: indignation) to reason? To collective self-interest? Tell you what- I'll call you on your shit, PLEASE CALL ME ON MINE. Then we can grow together and make this shit-hole planet better in time. So why not consider someone else: STOP CONSUMING ANIMALS."
APPARENTLY, I'M A "P.C. FASCIST" (BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT BOTH HUMAN AND NON-HUMAN ANIMALS) ~Propagandhi

I waited for you to reply to my post but for some reason you stopped at that above. I guess it is too difficult for you to climb down off your high horse and speak with us common folk. I didn't assasinate your character I spoke the truth about PETA which you linked to. As for the food you are talking about as I said it is only for the rich. The poor don't turn down food. The post before this one about processing taking more resources seems to make a lot of sense as well, although I don't have any figures or anything on that. Maybe all this self-worth you've been feeding yourself is just bullshit.

EDIT: I just had a thought. Why don't you take all that extra money you spend on processed soy shit and buy normal food for a family that is starving?

actually my life doesnt revolve around trying to smack some sense into you all, now snce there are manty of you i will go one by one

so society has blinded you and now you defend it,
I agree totally, PETA is a heartless organisation, cut class not frogs, drink beer not milk, most of their campaigns are poorly thought out (beer is filtered through animal skins)
i used it only for shock value.
now since your attacking me for not eating meat or drinking milk or eating eggs or wearing leather or having honey (do you drink or eat honey?)i must wonder why? and i think you should too
society's values are implanted into your head, christianity, capitalism, global media conglomerates monopolised by a handful of republicans blind you,
apparently not consuming animal products is bad? why because they are selling animal products to you
live animal testing should be abolished, replaced with either sedated animals or with stem cells
id just like to know why you are attacking me?
i want an actual answer along the lines of it makes me feel better inside or something like that not "because your stupid"

I waited for you to reply to my post but for some reason you stopped at that above. I guess it is too difficult for you to climb down off your high horse and speak with us common folk. I didn't assasinate your character I spoke the truth about PETA which you linked to. As for the food you are talking about as I said it is only for the rich. The poor don't turn down food. The post before this one about processing taking more resources seems to make a lot of sense as well, although I don't have any figures or anything on that. Maybe all this self-worth you've been feeding yourself is just bullshit.

EDIT: I just had a thought. Why don't you take all that extra money you spend on processed soy shit and buy normal food for a family that is starving?
so my computer freezes and you assume that its because your arguments are so ground breakingly good, that i have to cower away, ive heard all this from my parents

EDIT: I just had a thought. Why don't you take all that extra money you spend on processed soy shit and buy normal food for a family that is starving?

hmmm, why dont you buy sweat shop clothing and spend some more money on sweat shops, because it supports cruelty...

Yeah, only problem is, soy milk makes me swell up and...well...die. I'd much prefer cow milk, thank you very much--I'm not to keen on swelling and death.
well in that case i can understand, but its not an excuse to go out and look for something else

, the cow does not have the potential in later life to have any impact on the world, it will not become a scientist or produce priceless works of art, it will just stand there and eat grass.
maybe animals feel pain, but plants too show reactions to stimuli, which can be interpreted as pain.

edit: just check out this Plants behave like humans (http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Plants-behave-like-humans-Don-Burke/2006/01/23/1137864854767.html)
and well odds are you wont either so just because its got the 5% differance in genetics doesnt mean its totally off, humans are animals too, so to me animal consumption is canbalism
as for plants, stimuli and pain are two differant things, we both know that.
plants dont have brains to interpret the pain, no nervous system, and with their genetic code being only 5% the same its pretty safe to day they arent like us

ohh look you didnt reply right away, i must be right...

certainly you are right, when you say, that to you animal consumption is canbalism. only it isnt to me.
then you cant know for sure if plants cant feel pain, you would have to have a talk with them to be ultimately sure what they feel and if they like it or not. however i would not care if they feel pain, i will consume them anyway.

certainly you are right, when you say, that to you animal consumption is canbalism. only it isnt to me.
then you cant know for sure if plants cant feel pain, you would have to have a talk with them to be ultimately sure what they feel and if they like it or not. however i would not care if they feel pain, i will consume them anyway.
actually all plants only have reflexes, its just programs in their genetics, no pain, just, hmm, where did my leaf go? ahh release this stuff. like a computer, dont ell me my computer can feel it whn i hit it, sure the microchips move around but it doesnt feel pain, its just affected by stimuli

Edit: id like to add, thanks for not being like the other guy, he starts off by saying hes gonna benice to me then insults my beleifs, man he's weird...
not that it bothered me personally, just kind of disapointed to have another "human" bahave in such a barbaric manner makes me ashamed to call myself one

well in that case i can understand, but its not an excuse to go out and look for something else

It's not my job to look for an alternative. You're condemning my actions--you tell me what I should drink that won't cause me to die.

It's not my job to look for an alternative. You're condemning my actions--you tell me what I should drink that won't cause me to die.

for breakfast, juice...
for supper there is wine,
i know that could get boring, but its not always easy to do the right thing, and just because its hard doesnt mean it should be condemned,

just kind of disapointed to have another "human" bahave in such a barbaric manner makes me ashamed to call myself onei look at it from another perspective, because i hold human life in such high regard far above animal life, i consider myself civilised. for me it is barbaric to equate humans with animals, like when newkirk says "a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy".

i look at it from another perspective, because i hold human life in such high regard far above animal life, i consider myself civilised. for me it is barbaric to equate humans with animals, like when newkirk says "a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy".

and what makes you so much better? war, capitalism, genocide, sitcoms, slavery, greed, hatred, crusades and the commodification of animals
i consider both human and non human animals on the same playing field

we can think of this
http://www-drecam.cea.fr/Images/astImg/mr_309_1.jpg
or create this
http://www.rpi.edu/~turcoj/Timeline/Art%20History/Mona%20Lisa.gif
no animal ever could.

So what? Stuff like this happens with all foods. Of course, organizations like PETA will always twist the facts to get people off meat. I'm of course, a meat-eater and won't be convinced otherwise.

we can think of this
http://www-drecam.cea.fr/Images/astImg/mr_309_1.jpg
or create this
http://www.rpi.edu/~turcoj/Timeline/Art%20History/Mona%20Lisa.gif
no animal ever could.

well mona lisa doenst move me, its just another symbol that we have turned ourselves into an animal that doesnt even know what it wants, you cant eat a picture, so then why is it priceless, you get more fun out of sex and thats cheap too, there is no reason for which that painting is priceless, as for quantum physics, ow does that affect your everyday life? yeah sur its cool to knoe that electrons behave as both particles and waves, and knowing the differance between a p orbital, an s orbital, a d orbital or an f orbital... does it make your life that much better?
and dont go "aha, electro-magnetivity is powering your computer", i know... i blame society for giving me a computer, its a drug
id be just as happy if i had never came accross one

Nation of Quebec']So what? Stuff like this happens with all foods. Of course, organizatione like PETA will always twist the facts to get people off meat. I'm of course, a meat-eater and won't be convinced otherwise.

NO! your not a meat eater what you put in your mouth is fake meat muhahaah, sorry i noticed that you said i am a meat eater and you cant convince me im not...

hmmm, why dont you buy sweat shop clothing and spend some more money on sweat shops, because it supports cruelty...

And you know what I wear how? You are pretty arrogant and defensive. You didn't answer the question. Convienent.

and what makes you so much better? war, capitalism, genocide, sitcoms, slavery, greed, hatred, crusades and the commodification of animals
i consider both human and non human animals on the same playing field

That is horrible. So a six year old child and a rat are the same? So a cow and a human are the same? Explain what you mean.

By the way you are typing on a computer. Thus you are using energy and all sorts of wonderful stuff that is hurting someone else far away, or is your computer made of grass?

holy shit i cant believe this thread went on this long. I now have 3 threads still circulating in the main page *does the happy dance*:D

That is horrible. So a six year old child and a rat are the same? So a cow and a human are the same? Explain what you mean.

By the way you are typing on a computer. Thus you are using energy and all sorts of wonderful stuff that is hurting someone else far away, or is your computer made of grass?

look down a couple lines, i clearly said, i blame society for giving me this computer that i now use, id be just as happy if i had never heard of computers,
6 year old and a rat? ones got more hair then the other, im not patriotic, im not nationalist, im not aw hite supremacist, im not sexist, whay should i treat animals any differant if they are living breathing beings like myself and you

look down a couple lines, i clearly said, i blame society for giving me this computer that i now use, id be just as happy if i had never heard of computers,
6 year old and a rat? ones got more hair then the other, im not patriotic, im not nationalist, im not aw hite supremacist, im not sexist, whay should i treat animals any differant if they are living breathing beings like myself and you

Yes I saw that it appeared while I was posting. Anyways, it's pretty easy to say you would be happier without a computer when you are using one isn't it? Why don't you not use it? In fact pretty much all of what you say is said in a way that makes it seems like you are righteous. In reality you are not helping anything. Why don't you join the peace corp? You won't have to use a computer and you can actually accomplish something worthwhile and make a difference somewhere. I'm sure there are groups you could join to help animals on a volunteer basis as well.

You really don't think a human life is worth more than a rat? To that I have no response beyond that you are a jerk. I don't see how you could expect any other reaction. People are worth more than animals, period. Every living (non-human) creature on this planet would kill you without a thought to ensure it's own survival. Luckily most will never get this opportunity. Just the fact that you can sit there surrounded by goods that stem from exploitation and post online that you don't support any of it shows the special abilities of a human. If you get cockroaches in your house do you let them get out of control?

If you really hate everything people are about and think animals are equally valuable than why don't you go live off the land somewhere? It is still very possible. I have a friends that did it for a little while in a cave. Until you take such measures you really need to evaluate your privileged ass and appreciate what all these humans you dislike so much have provided for you.

I don't get why vegans don't drink milk or eat cheese. What is up with your honey comment? How does eating honey hurt animals? :rolleyes:

Yes I saw that it appeared while I was posting. Anyways, it's pretty easy to say you would be happier without a computer when you are using one isn't it? Why don't you not use it? In fact pretty much all of what you say is said in a way that makes it seems like you are righteous. In reality you are not helping anything. Why don't you join the peace corp? You won't have to use a computer and you can actually accomplish something worthwhile and make a difference somewhere. I'm sure there are groups you could join to help animals on a volunteer basis as well.

You really don't think a human life is worth more than a rat? To that I have no response beyond that you are a jerk. I don't see how you could expect any other reaction. People are worth more than animals, period. Every living (non-human) creature on this planet would kill you without a thought to ensure it's own survival. Luckily most will never get this opportunity. Just the fact that you can sit there surrounded by goods that stem from exploitation and post online that you don't support any of it shows the special abilities of a human. If you get cockroaches in your house do you let them get out of control?

If you really hate everything people are about and think animals are equally valuable than why don't you go live off the land somewhere? It is still very possible. I have a friends that did it for a little while in a cave. Until you take such measures you really need to evaluate your privileged ass and appreciate what all these humans you dislike so much have provided for you.


Peace corp? i dont let my goverment decide where i go, when they are the ones i oppose, right now thecanadian "peace corp" is demolishing the haitian goverment supported by the peope and replacing it with a militaristic dictatorship, the troops are teaching the cops how to kill protesters and such, id NEVER join the peace corp
in addition to being a full time student, paying my way through science (not cheap) i also voloutneer regularly to a soup kitchen downtown (regularly as in 4 times a week for 4 or 5 hours)
and you say that there are a lot of animal that would kill to survive, yes, but properly fed, snakes, lions and sharks will not kill unecissarily.
So what i seem cold hearted?
your an idiot who refuses to see the link between your consumption and brutality. you attack my personal values, why? i could got freudian on you and trace it back to a small dick, but i wont. so why do you do it? your insecure, you cnt handle that your responsable for the death of others so you shrug it off as "they are just animals"
well your just an animal too, and right now if i was given the choice to save you or a hamster, id take the hamster, at least it can find chese in a maze

when it comes to views on vegans there are the vegans, the non vegans who dont care, the non vegans who dont know where to start, then there is you, you think its bad for some reason, i just don get it? jealous that i can control my impulses?
well i dont care either way, goodnight

[QUOTE=Wiztopia]I don't get why vegans don't drink milk or eat cheese. What is up with your honey comment? How does eating honey hurt animals? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE
imprisonment of bugs, its a grey area for vegans, im not opposed to it, i just dont like it

if it was a quick painless death, i would have nothing against eating meat, but cows (for example) are hung upside down by their hind legs, attached up above by a conveyor, once enough blood has flowed to their head, their neck is sliced, form there they are left squrming back and forth by their hind legs in the air while a constant straem of blood gushes ot of their neck, some sqeal, for the most art their vocal chords are cut, they bleed to death hanging upside down.
during their life its not much better, those used for milk and dairy are raped by an adult bull in infancy to lactate, often ripping open a giand gaping hole that gets infected, (main reason they pasteurise milk), their stalls are too small to turn around, those nt strong enough to stand up are chained up, with hardly enough place for the cow, there isnt enough place to pick up feces, you have to have no sense f smell to work in a factory farm, i could go on for a lot longer about each individual animal that is abused, but i am tired, i need sleep, but that is mostly why, i refuse to support such behaviour. and so im vegan, all this is becaus econsumerism has forced family farms to shut down or turn into factory farms

If anything she should be disgusted in eating a corpse.
Mmmh... corpse... Reminded me of Monday when I went to see the Bodyworlds 2 exhibition, you know, with the human plastinates. I made the mistake of going hungry and, damn! did those corpses look good!

I just wanted to take a bit of thigh and stomach and cook it right there.

look down a couple lines, i clearly said, i blame society for giving me this computer that i now use, id be just as happy if i had never heard of computers, 6 year old and a rat? ones got more hair then the other, im not patriotic, im not nationalist, im not aw hite supremacist, im not sexist, whay should i treat animals any differant if they are living breathing beings like myself and you

You can just as easily live without a computer as I can without animal products. Put your money where your mouth is--if you never touch a personal computer for the rest of your life, I'll never eat meat for the rest of mine.

during their life its not much better, those used for milk and dairy are raped by an adult bull in infancy to lactate, often ripping open a giand gaping hole that gets infected, (main reason they pasteurise milk), their stalls are too small to turn around, those nt strong enough to stand up are chained up, with hardly enough place for the cow, there isnt enough place to pick up feces, you have to have no sense f smell to work in a factory farm, i could go on for a lot longer about each individual animal that is abused, but i am tired, i need sleep, but that is mostly why, i refuse to support such behaviour. and so im vegan, all this is becaus econsumerism has forced family farms to shut down or turn into factory farms

Cite, please.

Yep, farms are dreaful places. Just look at this one:
http://www.dairystaff.co.nz/images/about/5.jpg
http://www.dairystaff.co.nz/images/about/6.jpg
Oh, how those poor cows must suffer!

As for pasterising milk because of open gaping wounds, what a load of crap.

It makes no economic sense to inflict a serious wound on a cow, which could get infected, possibly killing the animal or making it sterile. Do you have any idea how much a healthy breeding cow costs? A healthy unstressed cow produces more milk, so it's in the farmer's best interest to keep them that way.
At any rate, how is heating milk to 72°C for 15 seconds (which is all pasteurisation is) going to kill faece and pus micro-organisms?

Then there's the 'hanging upside down and slitting their neck'. Well, maybe in some Muslim countries (though that's facing Mecca and throat-slitting), but in Western countries, it's a bolt through the head to cause death before being hung up. They're already dead before the throat is cut.

Really, stop going to PETA sites for your information. They don't have a fucking clue and just make most of it up.

I just thought chicken with feces and organs still inside was nasty, honestly didn't expect a big PETA flame war to start from this.

I just thought chicken with feces and organs still inside was nasty, honestly didn't expect a big PETA flame war to start from this.
No-one ever expects a PETA flamewar!
https://www.ucisa.ac.uk/events/2003/forum/papers/forum-1-cobb_files/images/Image27.png

Peace corp? i dont let my goverment decide where i go, when they are the ones i oppose, right now thecanadian "peace corp" is demolishing the haitian goverment supported by the peope and replacing it with a militaristic dictatorship, the troops are teaching the cops how to kill protesters and such, id NEVER join the peace corp

umm that isn't the same thing at all. The peace corp doesn't have guns or military or cop training. They also don't go to Haiti as far as I know. Hooray for ignorance


in addition to being a full time student, paying my way through science (not cheap) i also voloutneer regularly to a soup kitchen downtown (regularly as in 4 times a week for 4 or 5 hours)
and you say that there are a lot of animal that would kill to survive, yes, but properly fed, snakes, lions and sharks will not kill unecissarily.
So what i seem cold hearted?

I didn't say there were a lot of animals that would, I said all living things minus humans would. Even trees will choke out other lifeforms if they have the chance.


your an idiot who refuses to see the link between your consumption and brutality. you attack my personal values, why? i could got freudian on you and trace it back to a small dick, but i wont. so why do you do it? your insecure, you cnt handle that your responsable for the death of others so you shrug it off as "they are just animals"
well your just an animal too, and right now if i was given the choice to save you or a hamster, id take the hamster, at least it can find chese in a maze

Freud is an exercise in thought. His teachings are not actually considered valid psych. Strange how it is impossible for you to understand that the lives of animals are simply not worth the same as a human life to me when you can then turn around and devalue human life. From your extreme defensive attitude it is fair to say that you are the insecure one and not me. I can easily handle my share of responsibility in the deaths of animals. I am against unwarrented torture but not against killing animals in the least. You keep insisting I can't handle such topics when you are the one up in arms over anything I say constantly coming up with conspiracy theories and excuses why you use a computer and go to school like everyone else. It is rather pathetic. I consume, I exploit, I kill, I deal with it. You do all the same but translate this guilt you have into a strange hatred for anyone that does not agree rats are not equal to humans.

when it comes to views on vegans there are the vegans, the non vegans who dont care, the non vegans who dont know where to start, then there is you, you think its bad for some reason, i just don get it? jealous that i can control my impulses?
well i dont care either way, goodnight
...what does control have to do with anything? You are a white middle class kid (from the sounds of it) who studies science and uses computers and has the priviledge to be able to afford food that does not use animal products. Somehow that makes you better than everyone else? It is this priviledged hypocracy that I dislike not simply that you do not eat certain food. It is strange that you can't even see that point. I'm sorry you have so many issues.

No-one ever expects a PETA flamewar!
https://www.ucisa.ac.uk/events/2003/forum/papers/forum-1-cobb_files/images/Image27.png


Not the comfy chair!

if it was a quick painless death, i would have nothing against eating meat, but cows (for example) are hung upside down by their hind legs, attached up above by a conveyor, once enough blood has flowed to their head, their neck is sliced, form there they are left squrming back and forth by their hind legs in the air while a constant straem of blood gushes ot of their neck, some sqeal, for the most art their vocal chords are cut, they bleed to death hanging upside down.
during their life its not much better, those used for milk and dairy are raped by an adult bull in infancy to lactate, often ripping open a giand gaping hole that gets infected, (main reason they pasteurise milk), their stalls are too small to turn around, those nt strong enough to stand up are chained up, with hardly enough place for the cow, there isnt enough place to pick up feces, you have to have no sense f smell to work in a factory farm, i could go on for a lot longer about each individual animal that is abused, but i am tired, i need sleep, but that is mostly why, i refuse to support such behaviour. and so im vegan, all this is becaus econsumerism has forced family farms to shut down or turn into factory farms
I don't know where you got this but none of it is true. I've been involved in agriculture for most of my 53 years and have never seen this.

A slaughter house is not the prettiest place but it's nothing like you describe. The cattle are killed quickly.

I will guarantee that a dairy cow is not "raped" by a bull. All dairy cows are artificially inseminated. Artificial insemination was not developed for humans, it was developed for dairy cows. The farmer looks through huge catalogs to find her perfect mate. It would be stupid to breed a cow before she's big enough. That would hinder her growth and thereby hinder her lifetime production. And they are not tied up. They have a roaming area and a loafing shed where they can get out of the weather. In the loafing shed they have barriers so they don't harm each other. They are fed a more balanced diet than 99% of the people in the world. Every bite has full nutrition. And their diet is regulated acording to where they are in the gestation period. A dairy cow is a very temprimental animal. If she's upset she holds the milk back. A dairy farmer is a special person, he doesn't ever get upset no matter what the cow does. If she isn't comfortable, she shuts down that costs length of lactation and thereby money.

You really need to learn about agriculture before you make such outrageous claims..

About the honey thing--

I worked my way through college working for a beekeeper. Bees are obviously not "trapped" in a hive. They have to get out to get the flowers. If it weren't for beekeepers the production of fruit and vegetables would drop by at least half. No bees, no spreading of pollen.

The hive is designed to be as natural as possible. If it weren't the bees wouldn't stay. Bees produce 2-4X the honey they need to survive the winter. If it isn't taken away they will swarm into the wild. Wild bees are far less likely to survive than domesticated bees. The bees in a hive are given medication so that they don't get disease or parasites. Wild bees are on their own. Nearly every state has a state inspector that checks the hives for disease.

Queen bees are artificially inseminated so they don't have the danger of the breeding flight.

Like all agricultural animals, they are given as much TLC as possible. You can't get a profit out of a sick or starving animal. Not even a bee.

I don't know where you got this but none of it is true. I've been involved in agriculture for most of my 53 years and have never seen this.

A slaughter house is not the prettiest place but it's nothing like you describe. The cattle are killed quickly.
::snip::
You really need to learn about agriculture before you make such outrageous claims..

He gets all his information from the likes of PETA and who knows what other disreputable sources. He also believes that a rat is equal in value to a human child. I wouldn't take too much offense to what he says he has some kind of issues. Thank you for clearing some of that up with your experience.

if it was a quick painless death, i would have nothing against eating meat, but cows (for example) are hung upside down by their hind legs, attached up above by a conveyor, once enough blood has flowed to their head, their neck is sliced, form there they are left squrming back and forth by their hind legs in the air while a constant straem of blood gushes ot of their neck, some sqeal, for the most art their vocal chords are cut, they bleed to death hanging upside down.
during their life its not much better, those used for milk and dairy are raped by an adult bull in infancy to lactate, often ripping open a giand gaping hole that gets infected, (main reason they pasteurise milk), their stalls are too small to turn around, those nt strong enough to stand up are chained up, with hardly enough place for the cow, there isnt enough place to pick up feces, you have to have no sense f smell to work in a factory farm, i could go on for a lot longer about each individual animal that is abused, but i am tired, i need sleep, but that is mostly why, i refuse to support such behaviour. and so im vegan, all this is becaus econsumerism has forced family farms to shut down or turn into factory farms
What the hell kinda farms are you visiting???I grew up on a farm in Ireland and I can assure you that most of practices dont exist.Pasteurization is used to kill bacteria in many products it main function is to extend the life of a product.The bacteria in milk are in no way harmful when the milk is fresh.I have drank unpasteurized milk for most of my childhood.The so called 'raping' of a cow in infancy??I think you may be confusing this with a practice of child brides in Africa where a fistula devolopes after a very young girl has a child.Most farmers would never risk an animal getting an infection in this way due to the fact thet it could damage the rest of the herd.As for keeping them indoors.This is done only in winter where conditions are too harsh and grass groth too slow to provide food.They are mainly kept in stalls where they are fed on a diet of either silage/hay supplemented with pellets.As for the slaughter methods described this is mainly 'Halal' used to supply the muslim and jewish markets.

Can someone...anyone PLEASE get these holier-than-thou vegans to visit some farms? I mean...fine...don't eat meat or meat products for health reasons...don't eat meat because of the hormones that are pumped into the animals (my reason for eating wild meat)...but to make shit up like this stupid 'cow rape' scenario? Christ. Unreal.

Can someone...anyone PLEASE get these holier-than-thou vegans to visit some farms? I mean...fine...don't eat meat or meat products for health reasons...don't eat meat because of the hormones that are pumped into the animals (my reason for eating wild meat)...but to make shit up like this stupid 'cow rape' scenario? Christ. Unreal.


this is why i stopped posting in this thread :rolleyes:

this is why i stopped posting in this thread :rolleyes:

Because you're afraid to read the truth? Sinuhue has a point. Have the vegans go to a farm and see for themselves. Also that cow rape shit was totally made up.

Because you're afraid to read the truth? Sinuhue has a point. Have the vegans go to a farm and see for themselves. Also that cow rape shit was totally made up.
Minoriteeburg is agreeing with my sentiment that some people have taken their conspiracy theories a little far...he wasn't denigrating my post:)

Minoriteeburg is agreeing with my sentiment that some people have taken their conspiracy theories a little far...he wasn't denigrating my post:)


exactly, i just started this thread because I thought entrails in frozen chicken was nasty, if i would have known that the sandy vaginas that make up PETA would start a dont eat meat flame war I might not have done this thread.

and Sinuhue you kick ass http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

My mistake then. Just ignore the post and move along. Nothing to see here. :p

My mistake then. Just ignore the post and move along. Nothing to see here. :p


it's ok everyone gets one mistake ;)

exactly, i just started this thread because I thought entrails in frozen chicken was nasty, if i would have known that the sandy vaginas that make up PETA would start a dont eat meat flame war I might not have done this thread.

and Sinuhue you kick ass http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

I would have been pissed if she asked me to come pick the chicken up.