NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/27/tough.sheriff
Old story I know, but it has me feeling curious after I bumped into this on Wikipedia. I wish more jails were like this one, Sheriff Arpaio has the right idea.

I wouldn't mind there being more prison like that one.

Maybe instead of prisons, all criminals imprisoned for life should be given up for genetic engineering, allowing us to cure the innocent victims?

:sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5:
Go Jail that thing is perfect!!!!(whats this about)

Maybe instead of prisons, all criminals imprisoned for life should be given up for genetic engineering, allowing us to cure the innocent victims?
Thats the Best fucking idea ive heard all day no lie.:sniper: :mp5:

Pink Underwear guy is still in the news, I see. :p

This guy Arpaio has been really innovative in his ideas about incarceration. Some critics would say, TOO Innovative. :p

Well look at it this way, they serve no useful purpose in jail? So we could just use their bodies to better our own. And when we are advanced enough we may be able to prevent crime through mind control.

bring on the Technocracy!

The man's jail loses so much money it's not even funny.

The man's jail loses so much money it's not even funny.

It's probably a little funny. I bet I can find something funny about it. :)

That's just stupid. Rehabilitation? No.

Just make them so fucked up they move on to bigger things!

The man's jail loses so much money it's not even funny.
Interesting, yet the guy still manages to maintain an 85% approval rating.

It's probably a little funny. I bet I can find something funny about it. :)

It's the lawsuits.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/27/tough.sheriff
Old story I know, but it has me feeling curious after I bumped into this on Wikipedia. I wish more jails were like this one, Sheriff Arpaio has the right idea.
HA! Those conditions sound very much like some I have had to endure as a soldier. Why should lawbreakers have more privlileges than soldiers?

It's the lawsuits.

Do they win? Or is the prison just inundated with legal expenses?

Do they win? Or is the prison just inundated with legal expenses?

Both. The county has had to settle out of court over a number of wrongful death suits, and has had to fight many more in court.

HA! Those conditions sound very much like some I have had to endure as a soldier. Why should lawbreakers have more privlileges than soldiers?

Small point: you get paid and have a secure pension.

Then again, I think prisoners are treated far too well, certainly in Britain anyway. In British jails, you can do degree courses free of charge whilst serving a sentence. If you want to get a degree from a university, you have to pay £3000 for the privilege.

He's proud that dogs there are treated better than humans. I find that disgusting.

Why should lawbreakers have more privlileges than soldiers?

They shouldn't. They should have the same priviliges. Give them all automatic weapons, and the problem should sort itself out. Anyway, in the army, soldiers are treated better than dogs, and soldiers don't have to wear pink underwear. You are getting paid for being in the army, they are not.

Hmmm... Well. tbh I think he's got the right idea. Somethings are taken a bit too far, but prisoners DO get an overly easy time in jail. I'm not saying Jail is plesant, but it's no where near as unplesant as it should be.

However, these measures should only be used on repeat reoffenders and would need very careful monitoring...

Now isn't that better than the death penalty? More suffering...

Anyway, I agree with him on most fronts, but there should be a doctor or mini-hospital on-site that can handle problems. Also, what happened to cause those lawsuits shouldn't have happened.

Reminds me of Holes and the MacGyver episode where Jack tries to find his uncle's treasure by getting arrested...

How undignified.

How undignified.

But they wear pink underwear! :D

A better system would be one that I saw suggested awhile ago, but am too lazy to find: Complete solitary confinement.
That's right, just keep prisoners away from each other. They can spend 20 hours a day in their cell, with a few hours each day allowed out (under strict supervision) to piss and do a small amount of excercise. The goal shouldn't be to make prison harder, just make it mind-rendingly dull. After all, prison sex, fighting, economies and the like can make a prison feel just like home for someone with the right connections, but without them it is like being grounded by your parents. For 12 to life.
And if you want to be really sadistic, you can force them to read ancient greek philosophy. Out there, you may be tough and strong, but in here you are nothing more than Plato's bitch.

A better system would be one that I saw suggested awhile ago, but am too lazy to find: Complete solitary confinement.
That's right, just keep prisoners away from each other. They can spend 20 hours a day in their cell, with a few hours each day allowed out (under strict supervision) to piss and do a small amount of excercise. The goal shouldn't be to make prison harder, just make it mind-rendingly dull. After all, prison sex, fighting, economies and the like can make a prison feel just like home for someone with the right connections, but without them it is like being grounded by your parents. For 12 to life.
And if you want to be really sadistic, you can force them to read ancient greek philosophy. Out there, you may be tough and strong, but in here you are nothing more than Plato's bitch.

YAY! :D

But they wear pink underwear! :D

I was talking about the people who support this. They have less dignity than the prisoners.

Hmmm... Well. tbh I think he's got the right idea. Somethings are taken a bit too far, but prisoners DO get an overly easy time in jail. I'm not saying Jail is plesant, but it's no where near as unplesant as it should be.

However, these measures should only be used on repeat reoffenders and would need very careful monitoring...

Perhaps prisoners do normally get an overly easy time in prison, but how is going to the completely opposite side of the spectrum a rational response? Criminals are treated too well normally, so let's treat them as poorly as we possibly can?

I was talking about the people who support this. They have less dignity than the prisoners.

Well, I can't speak for the supporters as i don't consider myself one of them. Though I'm not necessarily against it either. I'm more or what you would call a neutral party who hopes the amusement doesn't end.

Perhaps prisoners do normally get an overly easy time in prison, but how is going to the completely opposite side of the spectrum a rational response? Criminals are treated too well normally, so let's treat them as poorly as we possibly can?
Brilliant! You know, it would be even cheaper than this if we just chopped of people's hands for theft. Hell, if you don't even give them medical treatment for it, that makes it doubler cheaper.
Or better yet, let's just people on fire for looking funny!

Then again, I think prisoners are treated far too well, certainly in Britain anyway. In British jails, you can do degree courses free of charge whilst serving a sentence. If you want to get a degree from a university, you have to pay £3000 for the privilege.

However, if a prisoner earns a degree in prison they almost never commit a crime again. Compare that to normal rate of 40% and I think that extra three grand is well worth it.

Arpaio is a showman and a crook.

The local new times publishes lots of articles explaning his crookedness, but its arizona, and no one here cares much about anything imporant.

The only thing he does that I really approve of is putting mug shots of everyone arrested in the last week on the jail's website.

I think the "Sheriff" is more concerned with his image and bragging than the actual rehabilitation/dicipline of his prisoners. Autograph? Who does he think he is?

Why in the world does this remind me of the Zimbardo prison expiriment?

It's the pink underwear.

The prisoner was then issued a uniform. The main part of this uniform was a dress, or smock, which each prisoner wore at all times with no underclothes. On the smock, in front and in back, was his prison ID number. On each prisoner's right ankle was a heavy chain, bolted on and worn at all times. Rubber sandals were the footware, and each prisoner covered his hair with a stocking cap made from a woman's nylon stocking.

It should be clear that we were trying to create a functional simulation of a prison -- not a literal prison. Real male prisoners don't wear dresses, but real male prisoners do feel humiliated and do feel emasculated. Our goal was to produce similar effects quickly by putting men in a dress without any underclothes. Indeed, as soon as some of our prisoners were put in these uniforms they began to walk and to sit differently, and to hold themselves differently -- more like a woman than like a man.

http://www.prisonexp.org/

The prison does look like a good place for punishing the criminals, but the point of prison should be to make sure that this person doesn't re-offend, so I'm against this style of prison.

Then again, I think prisoners are treated far too well, certainly in Britain anyway. In British jails, you can do degree courses free of charge whilst serving a sentence. If you want to get a degree from a university, you have to pay £3000 for the privilege.
Ah, but if this person gets a degree, then they can get a good job, so they won't need to/have the time to commit crimes.

That's just stupid. Rehabilitation? No.

Just make them so fucked up they move on to bigger things!

your right, the tax payers should pay more to make 5 star accomodations for prisoners, so jail doesnt look so bad, hey its a 20 year holiday

The prison does look like a good place for punishing the criminals, but the point of prison should be to make sure that this person doesn't re-offend, so I'm against this style of prison.and by making Jailtime as painful and tedious as possible, it provides incentive to not going back.Ah, but if this person gets a degree, then they can get a good job, so they won't need to/have the time to commit crimes.in a perfect world... yes. but when you get to the question about any Criminal record... getting a degree won't erase that stigma. :(

now, can anyone tell me how cable television, Nudie magazines, comfortable living quarters and cigarettes help rehabilitate anyone?

I think many prisons now are too easy on the offenders. While I don't think it needs to go to the extreme that he has, there should be some kind of punishment other than you can't walk out of the building. I also support free higher education and similar initiatives in prisons. The point of a prison is to make a person valuable to society again, not just punish them.

I think many prisons now are too easy on the offenders. While I don't think it needs to go to the extreme that he has, there should be some kind of punishment other than you can't walk out of the building. I also support free higher education and similar initiatives in prisons. The point of a prison is to make a person valuable to society again, not just punish them.

i also think that perhaps they can work on higher education while in prison, but they should also work. just like an average person in the life outside of prison having to balance work and school, so should they. Prison should punish them and work on preparing them for society again.

as for death row inmates, it should be punishment, it also shouldnt be a 20+ year term and then the execution

I knew what this was about before I even opened it.

I think he is an asshole. Treating dogs better than humans. I hope he dies very soon. :mad:

While I am all for earning your keep
Tim Griffin, arrested for driving with a suspended license, required several surgeries for the perforated ulcer.

This seems like a rather harsh place to send someone for a traffic violation

While I am all for earning your keep


This seems like a rather harsh place to send someone for a traffic violation

it says suspended license, thats a little more than a traffic violation, but yes i do see your point

He's proud that dogs there are treated better than humans. I find that disgusting.



Dogs didn't do anything wrong. The prisoners did. I dont have anything wrong with it.

I knew what this was about before I even opened it.

I think he is an asshole. Treating dogs better than humans. I hope he dies very soon. :mad:

What is so wrong with punishing people who do bad things? Seems logical to me. Lets punish criminals so they don't want to do any more crime. Negative reinforcement works great.

Interesting, yet the guy still manages to maintain an 85% approval rating.


Hell, I'd vote for him. It wouldn't surprise me if Texas is trying to hire him away. We need guys like that to teach our offenders that you can't get away with any crap in our state.

In Texas, we just kill'em, which is okay, too, I guess

Brilliant! You know, it would be even cheaper than this if we just chopped of people's hands for theft. Hell, if you don't even give them medical treatment for it, that makes it doubler cheaper.
Or better yet, let's just people on fire for looking funny!

*sigh*

Or better yet, let's give prisoners a hundred bucks and a week in the bahamas for rape, and two weeks for murder. If it was pre-meditated, let's give them a $1000 bar tab, on top of it. That will make them stop.

*sigh*

Or better yet, let's give prisoners a hundred bucks and a week in the bahamas for rape, and two weeks for murder. If it was pre-meditated, let's give them a $1000 bar tab, on top of it. That will make them stop.

I'm sorry, which prison was that again?

What is so wrong with punishing people who do bad things? Seems logical to me. Lets punish criminals so they don't want to do any more crime. Negative reinforcement works great.

small problem - he runs the county jails. county jails hold people awaiting trial or people convicted of misdemeanors. a large percentage (i want to say the majority, but i don't have numbers currently) of the people in these facilities have not even been found guilty of a crime.

small problem - he runs the county jails. county jails hold people awaiting trial or people convicted of misdemeanors. a large percentage (i want to say the majority, but i don't have numbers currently) of the people in these facilities have not even been found guilty of a crime.

Well, damnit, put him in charge of a bigger jail. This guy has the right idea. I absolutely love it. Add emphasis to the phrase "crime does not pay"

Interesting, yet the guy still manages to maintain an 85% approval rating.

it is amazing how long you can coast on merely saying that you are "tough on _____"

who needs to look at results or anything? the man says he's being tough on _____, so he must be doing good.

Well, damnit, put him in charge of a bigger jail. This guy has the right idea. I absolutely love it. Add emphasis to the phrase "crime does not pay"

the fact that his "right idea" is neither just nor effective doesn't enter into it?

the fact that his "right idea" is neither just nor effective doesn't enter into it?

So, how many times a day do you touch your hot stove? None you say? Hrrm... know why? Cause it friggin hurts! Are you saying that this simple, and most basic human (and in fact animal) logic does not apply to criminals?

Has it entered into your mind that a lot of criminals are of the mindset "If it burns me, I'll make it so it can't burn me anymore, and then continue doing it."?

Has it entered into your mind that a lot of criminals are of the mindset "If it burns me, I'll make it so it can't burn me anymore, and then continue doing it.".

Or back to the point, a criminal will be more likely to take a risk if the "burning" is mild. But if the burning is going to be long and painful, well, they will think twice. Make the jailtime terrible, and the criminals will be less likely to take the risk at all. This is common sense. Make it hurt bad enough, and nobody will want to come back. Simple simple simple. Don't overthink it.

Or back to the point, a criminal will be more likely to take a risk if the "burning" is mild. But if the burning is going to be long and painful, well, they will think twice. Make the jailtime terrible, and the criminals will be less likely to take the risk at all. This is common sense. Make it hurt bad enough, and nobody will want to come back. Simple simple simple. Don't overthink it.

Then we should just kill all criminals. The ultimate deterent, right?

You also seem to forget there are such things as minor offenses. Not everyone in jail is there for analy raping their grandmother and then ripping a little kids head off.

You also seem to forget there are such things as minor offenses. Not everyone in jail is there for analy raping their grandmother and then ripping a little kids head off.



In Texas, we kill those bastards.

You also seem to forget there are such things as minor offenses. Not everyone in jail is there for analy raping their grandmother and then ripping a little kids head off.

And in this particular case, they are all minor offenses. It's a county jail, not a federal or state prison. It's either people doing 6-12 month stints for misdemeanors or people awaiting trial. None of which are anally raping their grandmother and then ripping a little kid's head off.

In Texas, we kill those bastards.

Only if they're black.

Only if they're black.
Not true. White guys die in Texas at the hands of the state, too.

So, how many times a day do you touch your hot stove? None you say? Hrrm... know why? Cause it friggin hurts! Are you saying that this simple, and most basic human (and in fact animal) logic does not apply to criminals?

and yet recidivism isn't way down, nor are costs. however, legal fees are up, so that's something at least.

and yet recidivism isn't way down, nor are costs. however, legal fees are up, so that's something at least.
The only proven way to reduce recidivism is to keep young offenders in jail until they are over 40 years old.

Nothing - and I mean nothing else works.

No need to make conditions so harsh, but no need to make them too nice, either.

I always wondered why they were given TV in prison.

it says suspended license, thats a little more than a traffic violation, but yes i do see your point
http://www.utcourts.gov/howto/traffic/

At least utah conciders no valid licence as a traffic violation

The only proven way to reduce recidivism is to keep young offenders in jail until they are over 40 years old.

Nothing - and I mean nothing else works.

No need to make conditions so harsh, but no need to make them too nice, either.

I always wondered why they were given TV in prison.
We actually studied that in a stats course ... the presence of TV has a Very significant effect (p val of like .00001) on violence and incidents of riots in prison.

Ill dig out my old regression homework one of these days (we used real data as a dummy variable example)

We actually studied that in a stats course ... the presence of TV has a Very significant effect (p val of like .00001) on violence and incidents of riots in prison.

Ill dig out my old regression homework one of these days (we used real data as a dummy variable example)

Well, if it makes them easier to manage in prison, OK.

Of course, we could just give them all Valium with their meals, and we would really be sure.

Well, if it makes them easier to manage in prison, OK.

Of course, we could just give them all Valium with their meals, and we would really be sure.
Lol it may just be the geek in me but I like electronics more then drugs lol

But yeah for the longest time I was like WTF why do THEY get cable when I didn't lol

But I guess it helps manage the population so ... I don't know

I am sure they may come up with another way to make that sort of reduction in violence without the tv ... its actually a growing area in the stats field from what I have been told

I live in that state. Arpaio is not doing such a great job running the jail. In fact all he is really doing is practicing a mild form of torture. Pink underwear, I find it funny. Nothing but tents to live in during a summer where the temp hits 120 - inhumane.

Lol it may just be the geek in me but I like electronics more then drugs lol

But yeah for the longest time I was like WTF why do THEY get cable when I didn't lol

But I guess it helps manage the population so ... I don't know

I am sure they may come up with another way to make that sort of reduction in violence without the tv ... its actually a growing area in the stats field from what I have been told


I'm just keen on the stats that show if you jail a young (early 20s) repeat offender for minor felonies until he is past 40, he rarely repeats.

Aging out the repeat offenders seems to have an effect. Other treatment programs that involve rehabilitation have a mixed effect at best.

It sounds harsh to hold someone for 20 years for being stupid several times when they're young, but we don't really have an exact science of human behavior yet.

Which I suppose is why they still "practice" psychiatry.

I'm just keen on the stats that show if you jail a young (early 20s) repeat offender for minor felonies until he is past 40, he rarely repeats.

Aging out the repeat offenders seems to have an effect. Other treatment programs that involve rehabilitation have a mixed effect at best.

It sounds harsh to hold someone for 20 years for being stupid several times when they're young, but we don't really have an exact science of human behavior yet.

Which I suppose is why they still "practice" psychiatry.
They still “practice” medicine too :)

But yeah it is a soft science

I would love to see those stats sometime btw. Specially if they have raw data ... a lot of people trying to prove a point rarely go through the “effort” of doing a multi-variable test or variable interaction or variable interaction (not saying you or they did not but as a stats minor it interests me )

Some stats that are significant if done in a variable added last situation with other factors present quickly become insignificant.

Of course, we could just give them all Valium with their meals, and we would really be sure.

probably runs afoul of certain ethics regulations about forced drugging

They still “practice” medicine too :)

But yeah it is a soft science

I would love to see those stats sometime btw. Specially if they have raw data ... a lot of people trying to prove a point rarely go through the “effort” of doing a multi-variable test or variable interaction or variable interaction (not saying you or they did not but as a stats minor it interests me )

Some stats that are significant if done in a variable added last situation with other factors present quickly become insignificant.


The life's work of Yochelson and Samenow, who did quite a number of studies over 25 years.

I'll have to dig some up for you - but I never see the raw data in the journal article - just their graphs and such.

It would be interesting to have someone else go over the raw data.

Evidently, Samenow is the shizzle today, because he's proven that rehabilitation is useless (he also testifies to the mental faculties of the accused - rarely does he say they're criminally insane, although it has happened).

The life's work of Yochelson and Samenow, who did quite a number of studies over 25 years.

I'll have to dig some up for you - but I never see the raw data in the journal article - just their graphs and such.

It would be interesting to have someone else go over the raw data.

Evidently, Samenow is the shizzle today, because he's proven that rehabilitation is useless (he also testifies to the mental faculties of the accused - rarely does he say they're criminally insane, although it has happened).
I have a feeling I could but get insight on it ... I only minored in it (well network modeling TECHICALY is a stats major so you could say I got my masters in it ... but you only take stats for the major not the masters so I only had to take 6 or so)

But it always is hard to find the raw data

A better system would be one that I saw suggested awhile ago, but am too lazy to find: Complete solitary confinement.
That's right, just keep prisoners away from each other. They can spend 20 hours a day in their cell, with a few hours each day allowed out (under strict supervision) to piss and do a small amount of excercise. The goal shouldn't be to make prison harder, just make it mind-rendingly dull. After all, prison sex, fighting, economies and the like can make a prison feel just like home for someone with the right connections, but without them it is like being grounded by your parents. For 12 to life.
And if you want to be really sadistic, you can force them to read ancient greek philosophy. Out there, you may be tough and strong, but in here you are nothing more than Plato's bitch.
Whilst I was in law class, my teacher mentioned the first prisons in existance. It was very similar to what you just described. You sit in a room and ask God for forgiveness for your mistakes for your entire sentance. The vast majority of citizens either when totally insane (like Kim-Jong Il, and then released into the general public) or killed themselves.

But if he is looking at making jail as cruel as possible, try copying Mexico or Brazil. In Mexico, they build some big unclimbable walls, then build some houses and a few eating areas, then toss people in. They have some guards watching the perimeter and a chef or too but that is it. They do have a problem with riots occuring frequently, but that only hurts the prisonners. Also,since it is often impossible to find an immate in a Mexican prison, they end up serving more than sentance (read: there til you die). The highlights of Brazil include daily torture, prostitution, and criminals raising their children there. If he wants brutal or cost effective, look at the people who got it right.

What is so wrong with punishing people who do bad things? Seems logical to me. Lets punish criminals so they don't want to do any more crime. Negative reinforcement works great.

I never said there was anything wrong with punishing criminals. But treating dogs better than humans is total bullshit. I have heard of these jails and a lot of people are just in there for smoking weed.