NationStates Jolt Archive


Wuha boy! Religion is like a virus or a fluke worm?

Eutrusca
20-02-2006, 15:32
COMMENTARY: For any of you who have read my posts on religion, you know that I am certainly no fan of "organized religion." The author of a new book suggests that sometimes religion is like a virus or a fluke worm which has taken over the minds of adherents and makes them engage in bizzare behavior. Based on my own experience, this is a valid analogy, at least for "organized religion." This is one of the main reasons I favor a highly personal spirituality. Your thoughts?


History Illuminates the Rage of Muslims (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/20/arts/20conn.html?th&emc=th)


By EDWARD ROTHSTEIN
Published: February 20, 2006
An ant climbs a blade of grass, over and over, seemingly without purpose, seeking neither nourishment nor home. It persists in its futile climb, explains Daniel C. Dennett at the opening of his new book, "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" (Viking), because its brain has been taken over by a parasite, a lancet fluke, which, over the course of evolution, has found this to be a particularly efficient way to get into the stomach of a grazing sheep or cow where it can flourish and reproduce. The ant is controlled by the worm, which, equally unconscious of purpose, maneuvers the ant into place.

Mr. Dennett, anticipating the outrage his comparison will make, suggests that this how religion works. People will sacrifice their interests, their health, their reason, their family, all in service to an idea "that has lodged in their brains." That idea, he argues, is like a virus or a worm, and it inspires bizarre forms of behavior in order to propagate itself. Islam, he points out, means "submission," and submission is what religious believers practice. In Mr. Dennett's view, they do so despite all evidence, and in thrall to biological and social forces they barely comprehend.

Now that is iconoclasm — a wholehearted attempt to destroy a respected icon. "I believe that it is very important to break this spell," Mr. Dennett writes, as he tries to undermine the claims and authority of religious belief. Attacks on religion, of course, have been a staple of Western secular society since the Enlightenment, though often carried out with far less finesse (and far less emphasis on biology) than Mr. Dennett does; he refers to "the widespread presumption by social scientists that religion is some kind of lunacy."

Mr. Dennett understands, too, that iconoclasm, with its lack of deference, can also give offense. But not even he could have imagined the response to the now notorious Danish cartoons that have so offended Muslims around the world, leading to riots, death and destruction. It was as if the problem of religious belief in the modern world had been highlighted in garish colors. If Mr. Dennett's attack is a premeditated spur to debate, the Muslim riots shock with their primordial force. Together, they leave us with a tough set of intertwining questions: Can religion — with its absolute and sweeping assertions — make any claim on a society whose doctrines require it to defer, in part, to all, even to blasphemers? Can religion be as dramatically shunted aside as Mr. Dennett desires? If not, what sort of accommodation is needed?

Mr. Dennett would like the coolness of reason to replace the commands of faith. The riots, though, show that at the very least, reason alone is insufficient. They are not just metaphorically iconoclastic in their challenge. They are literally iconoclastic: attempts to destroy any trace of forbidden images or inspire fear in any who might object. They are the latest manifestations of battles that once took place within the West, particularly during the eighth century, when iconoclasm got its name. At that time leaders of the Eastern Church, perhaps inspired by Islamic and Judaic prohibitions against images, objected to religious icons as a form of idolatry.

Iconoclasm (from the Greek, meaning the "breaking of images") was adopted as doctrine by Emperor Leo III (680-741) and his successors, and, for a century, led to the destruction of art, massacres, torture of monks and attacks on shrines, decisively widening the schism in the Church between Constantinople and the papacy.

The Iconoclasts of the eighth century and their successors during the Reformation were like the Taliban or rioting Muslims of the 21st. Except that that older violence occurred within a religion, inspired by theology. Today's Iconoclasts want to oppose all attempts to display forbidden images, whatever their provenance. And for a variety of reasons, many in the West readily defer. Last fall, for example, Burger King withdrew its ice cream from restaurants in Britain after receiving complaints from Muslims that the swirling illustration on the package resembled the name of Allah.

Of course, to a certain extent, the recent riots also reflect a struggle for internal power. Rage was deliberately churned up with supplementary drawings reportedly created by some radical Muslim leaders and presented along with the original group of 12. One, crudely offensive even to this infidel's eyes, replaced the political cartoonist's gibes with the preoccupations of a pornographer, showing a dog mounting the Prophet. The militants who created and distributed these cartoons displayed a willingness to violate any principle, to increase their earthly power — a sentiment that some original Iconoclasts must have shared.

What response is possible to such attacks? Many commentators have been surprisingly deferential, describing the original 12 images, almost apologetically, as insensitive. But look more closely: the subject of many is not really Muhammad himself, but the act of drawing Muhammad and the responses it might inspire. A cartoonist is shown anxiously leaning over his sketch of Muhammad, sweating profusely, looking over his shoulder in fear. In another, two Muslim avengers, their scimitars drawn in fury, are about to seek retribution for an offensive drawing when their superior, looking at it closely, advises them to "relax," it's just a sketch made by a Dane.

Some of these cartoons are not iconoclastic offenses against religious belief at all. Instead, they are about iconoclasm and anticipated confrontations with it. The fear and drawn swords the cartoons portray turn out to be depictions of the very reaction they inspired. They are expressions that is, of anxiety. In the West, Mr. Dennett's iconoclasm is absorbed, but Muslim iconoclasm cannot be.

What other possibilities are there? At a recent conference at Columbia University, "Religion and Liberalism," organized by Andrew Delbanco and the American Studies Program, there were some fascinating attempts to try to imagine something other than iconoclasm in the relationship between secular politics and religion once eighth-century tactics are left behind. Speakers, including E. J. Dionne Jr., Mark Lilla, Alan Wolfe, Todd Gitlin, Mary Gordon, Susannah Heschel and Elisabeth Sifton, distanced themselves from the kind of attack on religion that Mr. Dennett proposes, while trying, too, to pry religion away from its contemporary association with conservative politics and fundamentalism. For some it seemed an attempt to "save" religion for liberalism, while still keeping a safe distance.

The issues, though, remain intractable and unrelenting. But it may be that the United States has already offered one kind of an answer, creating a society in which faith and reason continually cohabit in uneasy proximity, and iconoclasm is as commonplace as belief.
Imperiux
20-02-2006, 15:33
Pretty true.
Eutrusca
20-02-2006, 15:36
Pretty true.
It is in my own experience. How else explain the fundamentalist Chirstian who, quite literally, places his or her hands over their ears in order to block out any rational discussion of things like evolution? :(
Mariehamn
20-02-2006, 15:37
One can also say:
"Humanity is bacteria with feet."

Does that make it true?
No.
Eutrusca
20-02-2006, 15:40
One can also say:
"Humanity is bacteria with feet."

Does that make it true?
No.
A human is a zygote's way of reproducing? :D
Teh_pantless_hero
20-02-2006, 15:42
I agree with the idea, but it seems this editorial is a, more or less, insult of Islam. I did a ctrl+f for "Christianity," I got squat. This obviously has nothing to do with organized religion being a black hole for logic, reason, and general good sense; it has everything to do with putting down Islam as a violent, bad-natured religion.
Skarpsey
20-02-2006, 15:48
And again the trend contines; we defend Islam by taking shots at Christianity and defining problems with the religion as insults.

Does it actually justify Islam? No.

Does it rebut any of the points made? No

But it sure is PC as anything...
Mariehamn
20-02-2006, 15:49
A human is a zygote's way of reproducing? :D
Yes. :eek:

The author in the link likens religion as a virus to humanity.
Someone, a long time ago (I don't remember who), likened humanity as a virus to the planet.

This book was certainly in the works before the cartoon thing, but the article of course skews it as "an attack on Islam" or something along those lines, only to not say it outright. My guess is, the author has some unexpressed angst towards religion. So, he rights a book. Great way to express yourself, but, c'mon. Conduct yourself in a respectful manner. Saying religion is a virus shows, in my opinion, that the person in question has merely been a sheep under the spell of an alpha sheep and never bothered cultivating a personal relationship with "the greater order in the universe". Something every religion encourages.
Eutrusca
20-02-2006, 15:53
I agree with the idea, but it seems this editorial is a, more or less, insult of Islam. I did a ctrl+f for "Christianity," I got squat. This obviously has nothing to do with organized religion being a black hole for logic, reason, and general good sense; it has everything to do with putting down Islam as a violent, bad-natured religion.
I disagree. The article makes reference to the early schism between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, pointing out that the Orthodox church adopted iconoclasm as a doctrine. It's true that the book happened to hit the stores about the same time as the furor over Danish cartoons, but to say that means that the entire article is nothing more than an "insult of Islam" is a bit disengenuous, IMHO.
Teh_pantless_hero
20-02-2006, 15:53
And again the trend contines; we defend Islam by taking shots at Christianity and defining problems with the religion as insults.

Does it actually justify Islam? No.

Does it rebut any of the points made? No

But it sure is PC as anything...
Extremism is the peak of the problem, in all religions. But this article seems to be chosen, not because it questions religion, but because it generalizes Islam. Some one is fucking around here.

You would, Eutrusca.
Eutrusca
20-02-2006, 15:54
And again the trend contines; we defend Islam by taking shots at Christianity and defining problems with the religion as insults.

Does it actually justify Islam? No.

Does it rebut any of the points made? No

But it sure is PC as anything...
I disagree. It is a valid way of looking at those who "submit" to a paradigm which causes them to behave in bizzare ways.
Eutrusca
20-02-2006, 15:58
Yes. :eek:

The author in the link likens religion as a virus to humanity.
Someone, a long time ago (I don't remember who), likened humanity as a virus to the planet.

This book was certainly in the works before the cartoon thing, but the article of course skews it as "an attack on Islam" or something along those lines, only to not say it outright. My guess is, the author has some unexpressed angst towards religion. So, he rights a book. Great way to express yourself, but, c'mon. Conduct yourself in a respectful manner. Saying religion is a virus shows, in my opinion, that the person in question has merely been a sheep under the spell of an alpha sheep and never bothered cultivating a personal relationship with "the greater order in the universe". Something every religion encourages.
So the analogy of a virus or a fluke worm doesn't hold because religion gives you some sort of "cosmic rationale?" I have my own "cosmic rationale," although it neither relates to any form of organized religion nor makes me behave in bizzare ways. The proof of the pudding is in the eating thereof. If my religion makes me behave in ways contrary to logic and reason, then the analogy is very appropros, IMHO.
Eutrusca
20-02-2006, 16:00
Extremism is the peak of the problem, in all religions.

You would, Eutrusca.
I would what?

I agree with you that "extremism is the problem, in all religions." The examples the author of the book uses are taken from both Islam and Christianity. How is that "fucking around?"
Mariehamn
20-02-2006, 16:09
So the analogy of a virus or a fluke worm doesn't hold because religion gives you some sort of "cosmic rationale?" I have my own "cosmic rationale," although it neither relates to any form of organized religion nor makes me behave in bizzare ways. The proof of the pudding is in the eating thereof. If my religion makes me behave in ways contrary to logic and reason, then the analogy is very appropros, IMHO.
The church may want you to conform, but it can't make you. That's what I think. I have my own "cosmic rationale" as you say. However, I like organized religion. Not because its "organized religion" but because it has tradition and a sense of community. At the same time, it does not define who I am as a person, not does it control my conduct. One does not have to conform to attain salvation, thats the bottom line. If one does, it is one's personal choice. Religion has nothing to do with it.
Eutrusca
20-02-2006, 16:13
The church may want you to conform, but it can't make you. That's what I think. I have my own "cosmic rationale" as you say. However, I like organized religion. Not because its "organized religion" but because it has tradition and a sense of community. At the same time, it does not define who I am as a person, not does it control my conduct. One does not have to conform to attain salvation, thats the bottom line. If one does, it is one's personal choice. Religion has nothing to do with it.
Perhaps the key lies in the degree to which one submits to religious authority? The article points out that the inconoclasm of religious authority is often the source of extreme and bizzare forms of behavior.
Gift-of-god
20-02-2006, 16:17
This article would have been a lot more interesting if it had been about religion and viruses, rather than just another discussionabout the cartoons.

Nice offhand support of USian culture in the last paragraph. This, with the bait and switch at the beginning, are ingenious attempts at disguising bias as science.
Mariehamn
20-02-2006, 16:17
Perhaps the key lies in the degree to which one submits to religious authority? The article points out that the inconoclasm of religious authority is often the source of extreme and bizzare forms of behavior.
Icons can be interpreted in so many different ways. They're a powder keg waiting to explode.

A Christian looks at a crucifix and sees forgiveness. A Hindu can look at it and see human sacrifice. Why does the Christian see the crucifix differently? Because its meaning has been explained to them. That's just one example I can think of right off the top of my head I've encountered.
Eutrusca
20-02-2006, 16:26
This article would have been a lot more interesting if it had been about religion and viruses, rather than just another discussionabout the cartoons.

Nice offhand support of USian culture in the last paragraph. This, with the bait and switch at the beginning, are ingenious attempts at disguising bias as science.
Whatever. :rolleyes:
Eutrusca
20-02-2006, 16:29
Icons can be interpreted in so many different ways. They're a powder keg waiting to explode.

A Christian looks at a crucifix and sees forgiveness. A Hindu can look at it and see human sacrifice. Why does the Christian see the crucifix differently? Because its meaning has been explained to them. That's just one example I can think of right off the top of my head I've encountered.
The icon discussion is nothing more than a subset of the larger discussion of religion as irrational and an engine for bizzare behavior. I don't know of anyone, religious or not, who can deny that religion ( depending on how dogmatic and unrealistic it is ) can generate bizzare behavior.
Revasser
20-02-2006, 16:39
It seems that organised religion, like a gun, is dangerous when put into the hands (or in this case, the minds) of certain people who either don't know how to use it or will willfully abuse it.

There's nothing new about that.
Eutrusca
20-02-2006, 17:09
It seems that organised religion, like a gun, is dangerous when put into the hands (or in this case, the minds) of certain people who either don't know how to use it or will willfully abuse it.

There's nothing new about that.
What about converts? Often it seems that converts to a religion are more zealous than those who were raised in it.

And what about children who are raised in a particular belief system? They would be fighting not only the religious establishment, but their parents, their family, their community.
Kamsaki
20-02-2006, 17:22
What about converts? Often it seems that converts to a religion are more zealous than those who were raised in it.

And what about children who are raised in a particular belief system? They would be fighting not only the religious establishment, but their parents, their family, their community.
Religion is all about Cultural Identity; it merely uses Spiritual philosophy as a method of separation. Both of your above statements are true of people in all forms of cultural labelling, be it sexual preference, skin colour, dress fashion, intellectual persuits, physical prowess or whatever.
Jacques Derrida
20-02-2006, 17:26
Yes. :eek:

The author in the link likens religion as a virus to humanity.
Someone, a long time ago (I don't remember who), likened humanity as a virus to the planet.

This book was certainly in the works before the cartoon thing, but the article of course skews it as "an attack on Islam" or something along those lines, only to not say it outright. My guess is, the author has some unexpressed angst towards religion. So, he rights a book. Great way to express yourself, but, c'mon. Conduct yourself in a respectful manner. Saying religion is a virus shows, in my opinion, that the person in question has merely been a sheep under the spell of an alpha sheep and never bothered cultivating a personal relationship with "the greater order in the universe". Something every religion encourages.

It's not really a novel idea. I've heard the thought expressed that religion is some type of super "meme" before. So I doubt the author was writing this book to mediate his own issues.
Dark Shadowy Nexus
20-02-2006, 18:30
religion is a virus.
New Granada
20-02-2006, 18:37
The author is pretty clearly anti-religious, from a very well reasoned point of view (namely, his book).

Its important to remember that the most significant target of anti-religion today is Islam.

Christianity today really only threatens freedom, and is pretty ineffective even at that end, but islam is directly responsible for staggering oppression and death, today.

The threat of islamic fundamentalism to people who live in islamic countries is far greater than that of christian fundamentalism to those who live in the US.

The article and the book are right, therefore, to make islam the focus of their discussion.
Revasser
20-02-2006, 18:43
What about converts? Often it seems that converts to a religion are more zealous than those who were raised in it.

That doesn't usually last very long. Mostly, it's just the new converts that are that zealotrous and not even all of those. Admittedly, the US born-agains do seem to maintain a level of zealotry that is almost unheard of in other countries. It's rather disturbing, actually, but that's Evangelical Christianity for you.


And what about children who are raised in a particular belief system? They would be fighting not only the religious establishment, but their parents, their family, their community.

Fighting them how, when? If they rejected the religion they were raised in?