NationStates Jolt Archive

I live in the UK, but I'm thinking of donating some money to the ACLU, because I support much of what I've read of them. I am not completely with them - I'm not convinced about affirmative action, for example - but I think the good outweighs the bad; they're a lobby group, not a party. So I want to support their work. I have, however, one reservation.

What is their policy on gun ownership, registration, and control?

Now, before someone links me to aclu.org or google.com, I do know I can find the 'answer' easily; I have done so, in fact. They don't appear to support a 'right to bear arms' in the sense of 'private gun ownership'. However, the ACLU does seem very upholding of the Constitution; this would include the Second Amendment [again, I have read their view on that: that it refers only to a state militia].

However, to me this view doesn't really seem to tie in with a lot of their other policies and arguments, in terms of both individual freedom, and freedom from government control. Furthermore, however I much read about them in the press, I know little about their actual day-to-day battles, and so I don't really know where they actually stand on gun ownership.

I've posted this on a few forums, but I thought I'd ask here as well:
1. What is the ACLU's position on gun control?
2. Is that position coherent to their other policies?

Please excuse if this seems an 'obvious' question: I'm not trying to troll ACLU members, gun owners, or Generalites at large. I'm just interested in the answer, and any debate around it, as it will influence whether a poor student gives away his hard-earned - well, fairly hard - cash.

I live in the UK, but I'm thinking of donating some money to the ACLU, because I support much of what I've read of them. I am not completely with them - I'm not convinced about affirmative action, for example - but I think the bads outweigh the goods; they're a lobby group, not a party. So I want to support their work. I have, however, one reservation.

What is their policy on gun ownership, registration, and control?

Now, before someone links me to aclu.org or google.com, I do know I can find the 'answer' easily; I have done so, in fact. They don't appear to support a 'right to bear arms' in the sense of 'private gun ownership'. However, the ACLU does seem very upholding of the Constitution; this would include the Second Amendment [again, I have read their view on that: that it refers only to a state militia].

However, to me this view doesn't really seem to tie in with a lot of their other policies and arguments, in terms of both individual freedom, and freedom from government control. Furthermore, however I much read about them in the press, I know little about their actual day-to-day battles, and so I don't really know where they actually stand on gun ownership.

I've posted this on a few forums, but I thought I'd ask here as well:
1. What is the ACLU's position on gun control?
2. Is that position coherent to their other policies?

Please excuse if this seems an 'obvious' question: I'm not trying to troll ACLU members, gun owners, or Generalites at large. I'm just interested in the answer, and any debate around it, as it will influence whether a poor student gives away his hard-earned - well, fairly hard - cash.

Here (http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html) is the official position.

In short, the ACLU is officially neutral on gun control.

This is consistent with the ACLU's position on upholding the Constitution (and Bill of Rights in particular) because, as explained, the ACLU agrees with the prevailing opinion of the courts that the Second Amendment does not prohibit gun control. (For the record, the ABA takes the same view, although more stridently. linky (http://www.abanet.org/gunviol/secondamend.html)).

Note: the ACLU does not advocate either way on gun control or on interpretation of the Second Amendment. The ACLU's view of the Second Amendment simply leads it to believe that gun control is not an issue of constitutional concern.

EDIT: Any questions?

Here (http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html) is the official position.
I had read that, but I wasn't fully clear on what it meant. Thank you for explaining it.

In short, the ACLU is officially neutral on gun control.
Ok. Possible question, then, although my knowledge of US constitutional law is highly shaky: would seizure of guns (not talking about restricting sales, but about imposing restrictions on guns already out there) be a Fourth Amendment violation?

EDIT: Any questions?
Not really; your answer was almost annoyingly clear :p. Thank you. Are you a member?

Here (http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14523res20020304.html) is the official position.

In short, the ACLU is officially neutral on gun control.

This is consistent with the ACLU's position on upholding the Constitution (and Bill of Rights in particular) because, as explained, the ACLU agrees with the prevailing opinion of the courts that the Second Amendment does not prohibit gun control. (For the record, the ABA takes the same view, although more stridently. linky (http://www.abanet.org/gunviol/secondamend.html)).

Note: the ACLU does not advocate either way on gun control or on interpretation of the Second Amendment. The ACLU's view of the Second Amendment simply leads it to believe that gun control is not an issue of constitutional concern.

EDIT: Any questions?


Once again showing the form that lead him to the top of the master debator short list.

Once again showing the form that lead him to the top of the master debator short list.
:rolleyes: He was answering a factual question.

That said, again, thank you TC-T.

I had read that, but I wasn't fully clear on what it meant. Thank you for explaining it.

You are welcome.


Ok. Possible question, then, although my knowledge of US constitutional law is highly shaky: would seizure of guns (not talking about restricting sales, but about imposing restrictions on guns already out there) be a Fourth Amendment violation?

Not if the seizure was pursuant to a warrant. The 4th places a procedural, rather than an absolute limit, on seizures.

Here (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/) is a good resource on the 4th Amendment (and if you follow the links to the US Constitution as a whole.)


Not really; your answer was almost annoyingly clear :p. Thank you. Are you a member?

:D Yes. I am a member.

I live in the UK, but I'm thinking of donating some money to the ACLU, because I support much of what I've read of them. ...

Why?

I have no doubt that the ACLU would accept your money, they have always had many foreign contributors to their coffers. As a matter of fact, throughout its history as an organization in the American legal field it has always been susceptible to and sometimes even driven by, foreign interests and foreign concerns. But why should you, as an individual (I assume you are not a 'party' or representing the interests of a foreign corporate or governmental entity), why would you want to influence American judicial direction and its future policy? Aren't there any equally important individual liberty groups requiring your attention and financial attention in Great Britain? I find that hard to believe.

Why?

I have no doubt that the ACLU would accept your money, they have always had many foreign contributors to their coffers. As a matter of fact, throughout its history as an organization in the American legal field it has always been susceptible to and sometimes even driven by, foreign interests and foreign concerns. But why should you, as an individual (I assume you are not a 'party' or representing the interests of a foreign corporate or governmental entity), why would you want to influence American judicial direction and its future policy? Aren't there any equally important individual liberty groups requiring your attention and financial attention in Great Britain? I find that hard to believe.

Well, he's probably a terrorist like all the other liberals and foreign communists that give money to the "ACLU" (AmeriCan jewish civiL destruction mUrder machine).

The only sensible answer to your question is that he can see that freedom is much more imperiled in the US than it is in the UK, and that the ACLU is fighting the good fight.

Nothing wrong with supporting foreigners so long as they are in the right.

Why?

I have no doubt that the ACLU would accept your money, they have always had many foreign contributors to their coffers. As a matter of fact, throughout its history as an organization in the American legal field it has always been susceptible to and sometimes even driven by, foreign interests and foreign concerns. But why should you, as an individual (I assume you are not a 'party' or representing the interests of a foreign corporate or governmental entity), why would you want to influence American judicial direction and its future policy? Aren't there any equally important individual liberty groups requiring your attention and financial attention in Great Britain? I find that hard to believe.

So I shouldn't give money to groups that want to protect and encourage freedom abroad?

The ACLU is contrary to some thought here, indeed for everybody's freedoms and liberties, not just us liberals. Case in point, it has spoken out against a proposed new law in Kansas that would stop a small right wing church from being able to demonstrate an hour before and after funerals. The ACLU's arguement is that regardless of the groups policies, they have a right to express them and if this is taken away this is a threat to all of us.

I would and have invested money in the ACLU.

I think the ACLU should die. All they do is attack the Right to further the left wing agenda. i mean thanks to them, I cant pray in school, i cant display the ten commandments on anything, we cant sing songs that relate to god for the Christmas concert. we cant have a nativity scene babies are murderd by the thousands a day. they attack the patriot act, they attack giving jobs to immigrants. were giving a job that no one else wants. i mean comeon. and contrary to minority belief the patriot act does help protect us. The ACLU is a lobby group funded by the farleft and used as a puppet to further their agenda.

I think the ACLU should die. All they do is attack the Right to further the left wing agenda. i mean thanks to them, I cant pray in school, i cant display the ten commandments on anything, we cant sing songs that relate to god for the Christmas concert. we cant have a nativity scene babies are murderd by the thousands a day. they attack the patriot act, they attack giving jobs to immigrants. were giving a job that no one else wants. i mean comeon. and contrary to minority belief the patriot act does help protect us. The ACLU is a lobby group funded by the farleft and used as a puppet to further their agenda.


You should try posting true things.

You should try posting true things.

well considering i did.

So I shouldn't give money to groups that want to protect and encourage freedom abroad?

I never said a negative word about giving money to a foreign group. I only asked for a clarification of 'motive' for doing so. It's interesting that you would take a negative connotation on that.

If I should give money to Hamas, or to the EPLF, one might assume that they know enough already to claim that I am a supporter of anti-American or ostracized political parties,

If I should donate money directly to the U.S. National debt, one might assume I simply believe in lost causes.

But the truth is, I don’t know why they would do so without asking why, and I only asked why, nothing else. How does that warrant a snide remark simply because I asked for clarification as to the intent and eventual ‘goal’ to be achieved from a foreigners point of view.

I think the ACLU should die. All they do is attack the Right to further the left wing agenda. i mean thanks to them, I cant pray in school, i cant display the ten commandments on anything, we cant sing songs that relate to god for the Christmas concert. we cant have a nativity scene babies are murderd by the thousands a day. they attack the patriot act, they attack giving jobs to immigrants. were giving a job that no one else wants. i mean comeon. and contrary to minority belief the patriot act does help protect us. The ACLU is a lobby group funded by the farleft and used as a puppet to further their agenda.

LOL.

Not only are most of those things untrue, but some of those aren't even vaguely related to the ACLU.

And if the ACLU is a left-wing organization, why is Bob Barr (http://www.bobbarr.org/) (former Clinton impeachment prosecutor) a consultant?

The ACLU is NOT anti-Christian or anti-conservative (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9100773&postcount=301)

EDIT: BTW, Conservative Voices Against the USA PATRIOT Act (http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/17244res20040415.html)

well considering i did.


I suppose you may indeed think the aclu should 'die.'

I did a school project on school prayer. Court case after courtcase against school prayer was backed by the aclu. I also did another one on abortion. Court case after court case backed by the ACLU. and am i the only one who actually sees the commercials by the ACLU. "the president gives jobs he claims no one will take to immigrants. Mister president ill take that job." no you wont. Because unlike most americans you dont have to work for living your a front man for the aclu. same thing with the patriot act. "the government is listening on my phone calls. whats next, a visit in the middle of the night to silence opposition. STOP the patriot act." oh and ferrenheight 9/11. made by micheal moor. funded by the ACLU.

I suppose you may indeed think the aclu should 'die.'


eh its a figure of speach. meaning they should be disbanded or broken up or something. But the beautiful thing about this country is that theres laws preventing that. the government cant violate the freedom of speech.

I never said a negative word about giving money to a foreign group. I only asked for a clarification of 'motive' for doing so. It's interesting that you would take a negative connotation on that.

If I should give money to Hamas, or to the EPLF, one might assume that they know enough already to claim that I am a supporter of anti-American or ostracized political parties,

If I should donate money directly to the U.S. National debt, one might assume I simply believe in lost causes.

But the truth is, I don’t know why they would do so without asking why, and I only asked why, nothing else. How does that warrant a snide remark simply because I asked for clarification as to the intent and eventual ‘goal’ to be achieved from a foreigners point of view.

It was a clear answer to your question and not snide.

The aclu's goal and function is to protect and encourage freedom. For someone in the UK, it would be doing so abroad.

I never said a negative word about giving money to a foreign group. I only asked for a clarification of 'motive' for doing so. It's interesting that you would take a negative connotation on that.

If I should give money to Hamas, or to the EPLF, one might assume that they know enough already to claim that I am a supporter of anti-American or ostracized political parties,

If I should donate money directly to the U.S. National debt, one might assume I simply believe in lost causes.

But the truth is, I don’t know why they would do so without asking why, and I only asked why, nothing else. How does that warrant a snide remark simply because I asked for clarification as to the intent and eventual ‘goal’ to be achieved from a foreigners point of view.

Methinks thou doest protest too much

eh its a figure of speach. meaning they should be disbanded or broken up or something. But the beautiful thing about this country is that theres laws preventing that. the government cant violate the freedom of speech.


It isnt prayer in school the supreme court, the constitution and the ACLU oppose, it is school-led prayer.

If your school outlawed prayer on its grounds, you would have a pretty strong case for free ACLU representation against them.

I did a school project on school prayer. Court case after courtcase against school prayer was backed by the aclu.
Congress shall make no law...

And the ACLU has backed Christian students cases in regards to praying at school should the school attempt to stop them from doing so. The ACLU has backed students bringing and reading the Bible in school. Where it does step in is when schools attempt to have school mandated prayer or school supported religion as that runs afoul of the establishment clause.

Try again.

Aside: Cat, I think I've been reading your responces too much, I have them memorized. ;)

I also did another one on abortion. Court case after court case backed by the ACLU.
Considering that neither all Christians or conservatives are of one mind on said topic, you can hardly claim that it is anti-Christian or anti-conservative.

oh and ferrenheight 9/11. made by micheal moor. funded by the ACLU.
Oh? Got a source for this one, or are you just mashing names together?

Methinks thou doest protest too much

I'm not the one that took it on myself to answer snidely a question directed to someone other than myself.

I did a school project on school prayer. Court case after courtcase against school prayer was backed by the aclu. I also did another one on abortion. Court case after court case backed by the ACLU. and am i the only one who actually sees the commercials by the ACLU. "the president gives jobs he claims no one will take to immigrants. Mister president ill take that job." no you wont. Because unlike most americans you dont have to work for living your a front man for the aclu. same thing with the patriot act. "the government is listening on my phone calls. whats next, a visit in the middle of the night to silence opposition. STOP the patriot act." oh and ferrenheight 9/11. made by micheal moor. funded by the ACLU.


Pray in school if you'd like, you just can't make it part of the morning ritual for all students. You can keep your false idol, just don't shove it in my face.

They don't want the jobs because they won't pay enough for someone to live. Are you going to work 10 hours a day in the sun for minimum wage or less?

No, I'm not affiliated with the ACLU. *Sorry for the sentence formerly here, posted before thinking* I think that those who espouse intolerance should get pushed back against just as hard as they push.

I did a school project on school prayer. Court case after courtcase against school prayer was backed by the aclu.

Yep. And the Supreme Court has agreed over and over again. (And most major Christian denominations are against school-led prayer.)

You can pray in school all you like, you just can't have the school lead prayer.

I also did another one on abortion. Court case after court case backed by the ACLU.

Ditto. You can blame the ACLU for reproductive rights.

and am i the only one who actually sees the commercials by the ACLU. "the president gives jobs he claims no one will take to immigrants. Mister president ill take that job." no you wont. Because unlike most americans you dont have to work for living your a front man for the aclu.

Bullshit. The ACLU fights for immigrant's rights. http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/index.html

same thing with the patriot act. "the government is listening on my phone calls. whats next, a visit in the middle of the night to silence opposition. STOP the patriot act."

Yep. The ACLU opposes the Patriot Act. So do many conservatives.

oh and ferrenheight 9/11. made by micheal moor. funded by the ACLU. Bullshit. Prove it.

sry if im pissing anyone off, just i have a personal grudge against the ACLU. Im a christian(oh here it comes) and yes everywhere i see God and christianity, the fulcrum on which this country was built, being systematically removed from society. OH u can say this here but not over there. You can say it here but move 2 feet to ure left and u can be arressted for violating students rights.

every where i see the ACLU its in a way thats furthing the farleft agenda. if they would be neutral and recognize everyones rights, like my right to proclaim my religion. i can do it, just as long as i do it in the box they put me in. its a load of crap.

sry if im pissing anyone off, just i have a personal grudge against the ACLU. Im a christian(oh here it comes) and yes everywhere i see God and christianity, the fulcrum on which this country was built, being systematically removed from society. OH u can say this here but not over there. You can say it here but move 2 feet to ure left and u can be arressted for violating students rights.

every where i see the ACLU its in a way thats furthing the farleft agenda. if they would be neutral and recognize everyones rights, like my right to proclaim my religion. i can do it, just as long as i do it in the box they put me in. its a load of crap.

What about the ACLU and Fahrenheit 9/11? Care to back that up?

sry if im pissing anyone off, just i have a personal grudge against the ACLU. Im a christian(oh here it comes) and yes everywhere i see God and christianity, the fulcrum on which this country was built, being systematically removed from society. OH u can say this here but not over there. You can say it here but move 2 feet to ure left and u can be arressted for violating students rights.

every where i see the ACLU its in a way thats furthing the farleft agenda. if they would be neutral and recognize everyones rights, like my right to proclaim my religion. i can do it, just as long as i do it in the box they put me in. its a load of crap.


What, pray tell, is a "farleft[sic] agenda" ?

Way to flamebait. And in your first post, too. Congratulations.

Sorry, I should have avoided poking the troll. I'm sorry, but I keep feeling that sometimes the people who want to bring religion into the public and force away he separation between science or state and religion should realize that there are those just as vehement against them. They claim there are, but I don't think they really understand how few people care what it is that they do.

Sorry for being off-topic and a jerk.

sry if im pissing anyone off, just i have a personal grudge against the ACLU. Im a christian(oh here it comes) and yes everywhere i see God and christianity, the fulcrum on which this country was built, being systematically removed from society. OH u can say this here but not over there. You can say it here but move 2 feet to ure left and u can be arressted for violating students rights.

every where i see the ACLU its in a way thats furthing the farleft agenda. if they would be neutral and recognize everyones rights, like my right to proclaim my religion. i can do it, just as long as i do it in the box they put me in. its a load of crap.

Since you ignored the link, here is my past post again.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=9100773

To the contrary, the ACLU has many high-profile conservative members and supporters.

The ACLU routinely defends the free speech, free exercise of religion, and other rights of Christians, anti-abortion groups, Republicans, and conservatives.

I've already proved this once and Greenlander has simply ignored it. He/she is simply lying. :headbang:

Here is that past post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9087173&postcount=125)

Here is additional evidence:
ACLU Defends California Artist After Los Angeles Orders Removal of “God Bless America” Mural (http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=10248&c=42)
ACLU Defends Church's Right to Run "Anti-Santa" Ads in Boston Subways (http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=10206&c=42)
ACLU of New Jersey Successfully Defends Republican Candidates' Right to Political Speech (http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=17457&c=42)
ACLU Sues to Protect Free Speech Rights of Anti-Abortion Church Group in Indiana (http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=16125&c=86)
In Win for Rev. Falwell (and the ACLU), Judge Rules VA Must Allow Churches to Incorporate (http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=10147&c=142)
ACLU Hails Plans to Sign Religious Freedom Bill into Law (http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=8122&c=142)
ACLU of Ohio Will Defend GOP Chairman in Political Yard Sign Case (http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=16843&c=42)
Connecticut Veteran Sues For Right to Commemorate Fallen War Hero on his Property (http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=7356&c=42)
Nevada Officials Drop Plan to License and Fingerprint Clergy (http://www.aclu.org/Privacy/Privacy.cfm?ID=7777&c=130)
ACLU of Nebraska Defends Presbyterian Church Facing Eviction by the City of Lincoln (http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=16295&c=142)
ACLU and 18 Texas Families Sue to Stop 'Prove Your Religion' School Uniform Policy (http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=7876&c=139)
ACLU Applauds Supreme Court Ruling Protecting Religious Liberty in Prisons (http://www.aclu.org/court/court.cfm?ID=18363&c=286)
Following Threat of ACLU of Virginia Lawsuit, Officials to Agree Not to Ban Baptisms in Public Parks (http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=15897&c=141)
ACLU of Georgia Sues City Over Arrest of Political Activist During Fourth of July Celebrations (http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=15870&c=86)
ACLU of Nevada Asks Court to End Ban of Book Critical of the IRS (http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=12525&c=83)
ACLU of New Jersey Successfully Defends Right of Religious Expression by Jurors (http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=17237&c=29)
ACLU of Pennsylvania Supports Congregation's Fight for Religious Freedom (http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=9298&c=141)
Iowa Civil Liberties Union Defends Right of Students to Wear Anti-Abortion T-Shirts (http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRights.cfm?ID=18159&c=159)
ACLU Says Texas Police Violated Art Gallery Owner’s Freedom of Expression - Police Forced Artist to Cover Classical Image of Nude ‘Eve’ (http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=17297&c=83)
After ACLU Intervention on Behalf of Christian Valedictorian, Michigan High School Agrees to Stop Censoring Religious Yearbook Entries (http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/StudentsRights.cfm?ID=15680&c=159)
Last-Minute ACLU Appeal Allows Exiled Cubane Activist To Take His Anti-Castro Message to the Skies (http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=7143&c=86)
Pennsylvania Superior Court Rules: Amish Can Stick With Reflective Tape on Buggies (http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLiberty.cfm?ID=14162&c=29)

ENOUGH ALREADY! :headbang:

STOP THE LIES! STOP THE DEFAMATION! :mad:

Sorry, I should have avoided poking the troll. I'm sorry, but I keep feeling that sometimes the people who want to bring religion into the public and force away he separation between science or state and religion should realize that there are those just as vehement against them. They claim there are, but I don't think they really understand how few people care what it is that they do.

Sorry for being off-topic and a jerk.

No problem.

sry if im pissing anyone off, just i have a personal grudge against the ACLU. Im a christian(oh here it comes) and yes everywhere i see God and christianity, the fulcrum on which this country was built, being systematically removed from society.

The principles this country was founded on were Enlightenment principles invented by religious dissidents.

every where i see the ACLU its in a way thats furthing the farleft agenda.

Unfortunately, the ACLU is no longer a far left organization. Perhaps it was at its founding, but not anymore.

every where i see the ACLU its in a way thats furthing the farleft agenda. if they would be neutral and recognize everyones rights, like my right to proclaim my religion. i can do it, just as long as i do it in the box they put me in. its a load of crap.
Which is just a funny statement, because the ACLU has a tendancy to remove the boxes that have been placed around all others.

But since screaming that it's not fair that people who were powerless are suddenly equal doesn't wash well, these mysterious boxes have to be invented.