NationStates Jolt Archive

I have noticed recently that virtually every thread here even remotely concerning Muslims, Arabs, and Terrorists manages to become derailed by people who feel the need to state and restate that all Muslims aren't terrorists as if there is some overwhelming sentiment to the contrary. People (I won't state names) keep insisting that other people (again, no names) are under the impression that the vast majority bear blame by association for the actions of an isolated few. I'd like to clarify this and gauge whether or not his misconception exists at all and if it does, to what extent. (poll coming)

Muslim =/= Arab =/= Terrorist.

To me, the above statement is utterly obvious and to me, it should be (and probably is) obvious to everyone. The estimated number of Muslims in the world varies from 0.7 billion to 1.2 billion. A breakdown of the Islam world based on region can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world) with the highest concentrations being in East and South Asia and many residing in North Africa and Europe. If even close to a majority of these people felt that their religion was at war with “the West” the bloodshed would be spectacular and endless! Yet, American swimming pools claim more lives then “Islamic Terror.” This movement is (numerically) significant only by the symbolic image it has intentionally cultivated. Kind of like Batman actually, he’s just one guy but he has everyone scared shitless. ;)

Any rational person knows damn well that the actions of a few, no matter who they identify themselves with, do not reflect upon the majority of any group of people they may (arguably) reside within. A Ku Klux Klansman represents the Ku Klux Klan, but not white people at large. A member of the IRA represents the IRA, but not Irish people at large. A member of PETA who firebombs a science lab represents PETA, not “non-profit” organizations at large. A terrorist who saws off a man’s head while chanting “Allah is great” does not represent Keruvalia or some goat farmer in Pakistan named Abdul, he represents his own demented little group of sociopathic assholes. It is extremely important this distinction be fully understood. While not all Muslims are terrorists, SOME ARE! Some have sold themselves body and soul to causing pain, misery, discord, and terror; some will just nod in cold agreement with their actions. In my opinion, these people should be classified for what they are, publicly identified as such, and eliminated with extreme prejudice. Their ideology should be isolated and destroyed, and it should never be confused or mistaken for anything else. Those who simply desire to eke out a peaceful and prosperous existence should be allowed to do so unmolested and unmarred with the responsibility for the actions of, by their own measure, ignorant and immoral psychopaths.

With this in mind, can we please conclude that this is understood? That when we discuss “radical Islam” we are talking about a select group of insufferable cretins and NOT the enormous mass of decent people who they manage to overshadow?

I don’t want to hear about what the dude running the Syrian bakery down the street from your house said, I don’t want to hear about your “experiences” with people who want the entire Middle-East nuked, and I don’t want to hear garbage about how anyone that discusses terrorisms “hates brown people.” I just want to know if NS General is still as reasonable as I have given it credit for and that this whole misconception is smoke and mirror rhetoric.

Muslims are not terrorists
Arabs are not terrorists
terrorists are terroirists

dont judge the many by the actions of a few

yea but

it seems to me that when some member of your "group" commits a great big splashy violent act in the name of your group you have to speak up if you dont agree with it. to not speak up is to agree with them

for example, if the united states invades a country that has never done anything to them and poses no real threat, killing tens of thousands and wounding more, and americans dont speak up against it, we agree to it.

if some moslems extremists fly a plane into the wtc and pentagon killing thousands in the name of islam and the moslem leaders of the world dont speak out against it, they agree with it.

there are times when its not enough to say "hey i didnt do that, dont blame it on ME". you have to speak up and say "those assholes dont represent ME" the the world can see that you are not associated with those who claim an association with you.

yea but

it seems to me that when some member of your "group" commits a great big splashy violent act in the name of your group you have to speak up if you dont agree with it. to not speak up is to agree with them

for example, if the united states invades a country that has never done anything to them and poses no real threat, killing tens of thousands and wounding more, and americans dont speak up against it, we agree to it.

if some moslems extremists fly a plane into the wtc and pentagon killing thousands in the name of islam and the moslem leaders of the world dont speak out against it, they agree with it.

there are times when its not enough to say "hey i didnt do that, dont blame it on ME". you have to speak up and say "those assholes dont represent ME" the the world can see that you are not associated with those who claim an association with you.

Muslim leaders did speak out against 9-11 and terrorist attacks. But the denounciations of scholars just don't generate nearly as much media attention as acts of violence committed by the extremist minority.

yea but

it seems to me that when some member of your "group" commits a great big splashy violent act in the name of your group you have to speak up if you dont agree with it. to not speak up is to agree with them

for example, if the united states invades a country that has never done anything to them and poses no real threat, killing tens of thousands and wounding more, and americans dont speak up against it, we agree to it.

if some moslems extremists fly a plane into the wtc and pentagon killing thousands in the name of islam and the moslem leaders of the world dont speak out against it, they agree with it.

there are times when its not enough to say "hey i didnt do that, dont blame it on ME". you have to speak up and say "those assholes dont represent ME" the the world can see that you are not associated with those who claim an association with you.

I do fundamentally agree with your point. There should have been massive acknowledgements and denunciation of the radicals in every one of their exploits. There should be a self-instigated "witch hunt" among Muslims to find and expose them.

Unfortunately, I fear the apathy of today’s people is not strictly limited to the West... or even worse that more people are in the "cold agreement" category.

EDIT: And of course, there were those openly condemning their actions, it just doesn't make as much of a splash.

Muslim leaders did speak out against 9-11 and terrorist attacks. But the denounciations of scholars just don't generate nearly as much media attention as acts of violence committed by the extremist minority.


The average viewer likes to see explosions, not some old guy ranting about something

The average viewer likes to see explosions, not some old guy ranting about something

And thus the misconceptions continue and everyone keeps wondering why they don't see the old guys ranting.

well i havent spoken out against the nazis ( i dont like them i have sam opinion of them as everyone else ) does that make me responsible for their actions ga_halek

well i havent spoken out against the nazis ( i dont like them i have sam opinion of them as everyone else ) does that make me responsible for their actions ga_halek

If you read the posts you will see that I'm arguing the opposite of what you seem to be accusing me of arguing.

it seems to me that when some member of your "group" commits a great big splashy violent act in the name of your group you have to speak up if you dont agree with it. to not speak up is to agree with them

...

there are times when its not enough to say "hey i didnt do that, dont blame it on ME". you have to speak up and say "those assholes dont represent ME" the the world can see that you are not associated with those who claim an association with you.

What do you want them to do?

There have been oh so many public statements from oh so many Muslim groups, organisations, public people, countries.
That was not their duty. It is every person's duty to use their brain and realize that no handful of persons can and will speak for a whole denomination.
Yet they did. Prominently, and often. In order for you to be appeased, do you want a "I'm not affiliated" postcard from every single Muslim? Or should they maybe wear shirts, red for terrorism supporters, green for peaceful Muslim?

Quite apart from that, I expect you to call for that same seperation and speaking out for every group and their members, as frequently and vigorously as you seem to demand it for the Muslims.
Told the random male stranger on the street yet that you aren't a feminazi?

well i havent spoken out against the nazis ( i dont like them i have sam opinion of them as everyone else ) does that make me responsible for their actions ga_halek

If someone in your immediate demographic started spouting Nazi rhetoric/propaganda wouldn't you swiftly denounce them and disassociate yourself from them? I sure as hell would.

Muslim leaders did speak out against 9-11 and terrorist attacks. But the denounciations of scholars just don't generate nearly as much media attention as acts of violence committed by the extremist minority.
in a similar way it is the responsibility of the press to agressively report all those moslem leaders who denounce such acts. for them not to do so is for them to participate in the tarring of all moslems as terrorists. its a lie by omission, leaving us with the impression that all moslem leaders agree with terrorism.

Ok, now I wish I had made this a public poll. Who the hell voted the "Yes, kill em’ all." option? :rolleyes:

Speak up! <.<

If someone in your immediate demographic started spouting Nazi rhetoric/propaganda wouldn't you swiftly denounce them and disassociate yourself from them? I sure as hell would.

Well unless the demographic in question is a nazi one then I think by spouting nazi rhetoric/propaganda the idiot in question would pretty successfully disassociate themselves from the group.

soz i meant to say ashmoria

in a similar way it is the responsibility of the press to agressively report all those moslem leaders who denounce such acts. for them not to do so is for them to participate in the tarring of all moslems as terrorists. its a lie by omission, leaving us with the impression that all moslem leaders agree with terrorism.

I agree and believe that that is largely intentional in order to justify America's "War on Terror."

Well unless the demographic in question is a nazi one then I think by spouting nazi rhetoric/propaganda the idiot in question would pretty successfully disassociate themselves from the group.

And if they continue to insist that they still represent that demographic while spewing Nazi rhetoric? How would anyone know otherwise unless they are denounced overwhelmingly. Silent apathy is easily mistaken for agreement.

Hence the whole discussion.

Quite apart from that, I expect you to call for that same seperation and speaking out for every group and their members, as frequently and vigorously as you seem to demand it for the Muslims.
Told the random male stranger on the street yet that you aren't a feminazi?

i certainly expect pro-life organizations to vociferously denounce violence against abortion providers and clinics.

i expect peta official to denounce animal rights violence (since this is somewhat supported by peta)

supposing that either group disagrees with such tactics.

when a "feminazi" does some big splashy violent act that i disagree with i will consider speaking out against it.

well i havent spoken out against the nazis ( i dont like them i have sam opinion of them as everyone else ) does that make me responsible for their actions ga_halek
i havent spoken out against nazis either

is either of us a prominent member of a group that the nazis claim association with? have they done some recent act which requires us to speak up?

Ohhh I really want to know who voted "Kill em' all." Let's hear it. :rolleyes:

i certainly expect pro-life organizations to vociferously denounce violence against abortion providers and clinics.

i expect peta official to denounce animal rights violence (since this is somewhat supported by peta)


Those are clearly defined, rather small organisations. (small as in comparison to a worldwide faith)
I do expect the head of an organisation to speak out against something that single members did that was afainst the orga's ethics. I do so because such an orgo, especially the head of one, represents every person in them.

A Muslim doesn't represent the Muslim faith. It is not in a single person's responsibility to represent a large group he belongs to, it works the other way around only, if it does at all.
So I'd expect orgas and other official representatives of the Muslim faith to speak out, as most of them have done. There is no rational way of demanding the same of every single Muslim.

#when a "feminazi" does some big splashy violent act that i disagree with i will consider speaking out against it.
Consider, hmm?
Also, why does it need to be big and splashy? Though you have never said this, I could see you in the same argumentative line I associate with people who demand every Muslim to speak out against the way some Muslims treat their women. That same argument would demand you to apologize for those many books proclaiming men in general to be of a lower status, or to be discrminated against, or whatever else. Because, you know, there are some women who advocate such things. And many of those are rather well known.

I would hate to think all Americans, those of European decent, Chritians, or any other group I belong to were judged by Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Henady, or GW. Unfortunately, most of these groups are judged by GW.

May God have mercy on our souls.

i havent spoken out against nazis either

is either of us a prominent member of a group that the nazis claim association with? have they done some recent act which requires us to speak up?
I'm German, and yes, many neonazis claim to speak for "the German people". And yes, there regrettably still are regular acts of abusing people they don't like. And yes, I speak up against them regularly, too. But not out of a sense of duty.

Are you white? Are you Christian? Are you a "Westerner"? In fact, what country are you from? I hope you see where I'm getting.

I would hate to think all Americans, those of European decent, Chritians, or any other group I belong to were judged by Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Henady, or GW.
Unfortunately, most of these groups are judged by GW.

May God have mercy on our souls.
Why, look at NSG, and you see those things being done on a regular basis. It's one of our fave passtimes, it seems.
And we justly call BS on that.
Even as many of these people are elected within a democratic country. And still, no one expects the groups you mentioned above to speak out against them regularly in order to not be judged by their actions, or called "guilty by silence".
Somehow, with those examples, suddenly everyone sees that it is ridiculous to make an individual of a group responsible for the idiocies of another who happens to claim to act for that group.

Those are clearly defined, rather small organisations. (small as in comparison to a worldwide faith)
I do expect the head of an organisation to speak out against something that single members did that was afainst the orga's ethics. I do so because such an orgo, especially the head of one, represents every person in them.

A Muslim doesn't represent the Muslim faith. It is not in a single person's responsibility to represent a large group he belongs to, it works the other way around only, if it does at all.
So I'd expect orgas and other official representatives of the Muslim faith to speak out, as most of them have done. There is no rational way of demanding the same of every single Muslim.


Consider, hmm?
Also, why does it need to be big and splashy? Though you have never said this, I could see you in the same argumentative line I associate with people who demand every Muslim to speak out against the way some Muslims treat their women. That same argument would demand you to apologize for those many books proclaiming men in general to be of a lower status, or to be discrminated against, or whatever else. Because, you know, there are some women who advocate such things. And many of those are rather well known.
i think you need to read my post again. i did specify big splashy violent act. and i wrote of the need of the leaders to speak out. (although there are times and circumstances that require individuals to make their opinions known)

for gods sake there are a billion moslems. i dont need to hear from every one of them. i dont need to hear a denunciation from the imams of indonesia every time a palestinian blows himself up in front of an israeli cafe. i DO need to hear reports in my newspapers and tv stations of those islamic leaders who denounce the railway bombings in spain. (not today but when they happened)

i think you need to read my post again. i did specify big splashy violent act. and i wrote of the need of the leaders to speak out. (although there are times and circumstances that require individuals to make their opinions known)

for gods sake there are a billion moslems. i dont need to hear from every one of them. i dont need to hear a denunciation from the imams of indonesia every time a palestinian blows himself up in front of an israeli cafe. i DO need to hear reports in my newspapers and tv stations of those islamic leaders who denounce the railway bombings in spain. (not today but when they happened)

It sounds like your problem is not with the Muslim leaders (who do denounce these things) but with the American media which doesn't report these denounciations.

I'm German, and yes, many neonazis claim to speak for "the German people". And yes, there regrettably still are regular acts of abusing people they don't like. And yes, I speak up against them regularly, too. But not out of a sense of duty.

Are you white? Are you Christian? Are you a "Westerner"? In fact, what country are you from? I hope you see where I'm getting.
as a german im sure you understand the importance of not giving the world the impression that germans support neonazis. if they were allowed free rein in your country to do as they please to people they dont like and no one ever spoke up against them (and it was never reported that you do so) it would give the world the impression that germany was endorsing neonazis.

in the same way, if no american speaks up against the war in iraq and the detaining of prisoners at guantanamo bay, you would have good reason to think that all americans think that these are both really good ideas. our lack of action against it would rightly imply that we support it.

not all muslims are extremist terrorists, infact, a lot of them don't even suppoort the terrorist agenda or MO, however, as the cartoon riots are demonstrating, it appears that at least a large portion of the muslim world is a litle off kilter, Maybe not a majority, but 49% isn't a majority either. I'd love for all the world to say that it wasn't true and that you can't judge the muslim faith by the actions of a few extremists, but we apparently aren't looking at a few extremists anymore

Not all muslims are terrorists

but all terrorists are muslims

It sounds like your problem is not with the Muslim leaders (who do denounce these things) but with the American media which doesn't report these denounciations.
i guess, since i agree with the original post that moslem doesn not equal terrorist, i have 3 problems

1) the lack of aggressive reporting by the media of the denunciatins of moslem leaders

2) those moslem leaders who DO support terrorism.

3) people who cant be bothered to seperate the good from the bad in the moslem world.

i think you need to read my post again. i did specify big splashy violent act. and i wrote of the need of the leaders to speak out. (although there are times and circumstances that require individuals to make their opinions known)

for gods sake there are a billion moslems. i dont need to hear from every one of them. i dont need to hear a denunciation from the imams of indonesia every time a palestinian blows himself up in front of an israeli cafe. i DO need to hear reports in my newspapers and tv stations of those islamic leaders who denounce the railway bombings in spain. (not today but when they happened)

Well, I can only whole-heartedly second this poster then:

It sounds like your problem is not with the Muslim leaders (who do denounce these things) but with the American media which doesn't report these denounciations.
And, let me add, with the people who don't care enough to look a little closer but are satisfied with the first thing the media showed.

... as the cartoon riots are demonstrating, it appears that at least a large portion of the muslim world is a litle off kilter... we apparently aren't looking at a few extremists anymore
You are either/both underestimating the number of Muslims in the world, or/and overestimating the number of people involved in these riots.

Ohhh I really want to know who voted "Kill em' all." Let's hear it. :rolleyes:

Bengosha, Disturnn, IDF, J33zus, and Minorthreat

Not all muslims are terrorists

but all terrorists are muslims

The Tamil Tigers are not Muslim.

Tim McVeigh was not Muslim.

Shall I go on?

Not all muslims are terrorists

but all terrorists are muslims
oh really? is it some kind of auto-conversion program? when does it kick in?

i mean, was timothy mcveigh a moslem when he blew up the OKC federal building? did he convert wen the babies died? was it when he lit the fuse? or perhaps did the planning of it turn him moslem??

what about that fuck who blew up the abortion clinic killing a security guard and maiming a nurse? does he even KNOW he's not a christian anymore? at what point did HE convert?

The Tamil Tigers are not Muslim.

Tim McVeigh was not Muslim.

Shall I go on?
And if we're talking about state terror, well the good old US has that market cornered.

Not all muslims are terrorists

but all terrorists are muslims

So I suppose that the IRA aren't terrorists? Or if that the Contra's weren't terrorists? Or if I got a bunch of my buddies from Montana together and blew up some government buildings we wouldn't be terrorists.

The Tamil Tigers are not Muslim.

Tim McVeigh was not Muslim.

Shall I go on?

Oh, please do. I won't be able to sleep tonight unless we have the IRA, RAF and ETA terrorists on the list as well.

Not all muslims are terrorists

but all terrorists are muslims

A somewhat ignorant and narrowminded statement, no? :rolleyes:

Not all muslims are terrorists

but all terrorists are muslims

Wow, the militant IRA guys and their Protestant counterparts have been missing a lot of mosque, then...

EDIT: Oops, sorry, I didn't see that several people had already blasted Disturnn's statement out of the water...

So I suppose that the IRA aren't terrorists? Or if that the Contra's weren't terrorists? Or if I got a bunch of my buddies from Montana together and blew up some government buildings we wouldn't be terrorists.
Nah, I think we all got it wrong. I think the poster tried to tell us that the moment you do the terrorist act, you turn Muslim in some magicy way. The trick's called QuickConversion and is one of the more nifty Muslim recrution tools of doom.

Bengosha, Disturnn, IDF, J33zus, and Minorthreat

Oh? I did make this a public poll? O_o

Strange that it isn't showing for me, thanks though. :)

Oh, please do. I won't be able to sleep tonight unless we have the IRA, RAF and ETA terrorists on the list as well.
Not to mention the Christian South Lebanese Army.

Not to mention the Christian South Lebanese Army.
Oh, please don't feel that to be an exclusive list. It's open for all. I'm a free access terrorist lister.

Not to mention the Christian South Lebanese Army.

Heh, this reminds me of "The Life of Brian"...

"The People's Liberation Front of Judeah is over there"

Badubump...