NationStates Jolt Archive

I think that we shouldn't support Israel (or the Arabs) because those people have hated each other for thousands of years and Condoleeza Rice isn't going to change that no matter how hard she tries. Supporting one side, or both sides, as we do, only makes it worse and even more confusing.

Just my opinon.

Fuck no. Why did we put Israel there in the first place? Oh yeah, the Mid East has oil and it was in our interests to have a "stable democracy" there. Just like it was in our interests to help put Saddam in power and then it was in our interests to take him out of power. Boy, America really can do whatever the fuck we want! Perhaps that's why the Arab world, and a lot of other countries hate us?

I say we all kick back, open up a cold one and watch the fight as the Jews battle the arabs. Then we shall enjoy the end of the world as we know it.

I say we all kick back, open up a cold one and watch the fight as the Jews battle the arabs. Then we shall enjoy the end of the world as we know it.

A world with no Jews and Arabs?

But I like most Jews.

And some Arabs.

The WEST(not just the US) should be defending Israel with all their might.

6 million jews died because of the Nazi's, and it's mostly our fault for letting that happen in the first place(appeasing Hitler)

And now you people want another 6 million jewish people to die?

No, we shouldn't help anyone. We should all stay within our borders and only care for ourselves. Why should I care about the rest of the World?

No, we shouldn't help anyone. We should all stay within our borders and only care for ourselves. Why should I care about the rest of the World?

I still don't understand your logic.

With your intelligence, Hitler would of taken over the world. I wouldn't be harmed as much, considering I was born in Germany, but everyone in this forum would be a slave to the Nazi's.

But nope, you think everyone should just mind their own business. While the US goes on with their life in the 1940's, Hitler would be killing millions and enslaving people not of pure Aryan descent. It wouldn't be long before Hitler came into North America and destroyed the USA. That's what happens when in times of evil, a man does nothing to stop it.

I still don't understand your logic.
<snip>
I do believe he's being sarcastic.

6 million jews died because of the Nazi's, and it's mostly our fault for letting that happen in the first place(appeasing Hitler)
Appeasement ended in 1939. You may or may not agree with the policy, but fact is that the Holocaust as such didn't start until 1942.
By then the West was happily battling away. And at no point did anyone really care about the Jews, even until much later in the war.

As for the OP:
I don't think either side should be rewarded for violence.

I do believe he's being sarcastic.

Clever one you are.

Clever one you are.
Why, thank you :D

Why, thank you :D

It was my pleasure, lets do it again sometime.

Appeasement ended in 1939. You may or may not agree with the policy, but fact is that the Holocaust as such didn't start until 1942.
By then the West was happily battling away. And at no point did anyone really care about the Jews, even until much later in the war.

As for the OP:
I don't think either side should be rewarded for violence.

Had we destroyed Hitler when he marched into the Rhine lands(something that was strictly forbidden in the Treaty of Versailles) than perhaps the Jewish population would be 6 million higher.

Had we destroyed Hitler when Austria became part of Germany(another illegal activity forbidden in the Treaty) than perhaps over 50 million people would be alive

and had we destroyed Hitler when he took Czechoslovakia, than I wouldn't be in this forum right now disagreeing with you that we should let Israel be destroyed by a bunch of Islam fundamentalist, who obviously do not comprehend the concept of PEACE

-snip-
Had you infected Hitler's mother with Syphillis...

Anyways, if there hadn't been a WWII, I'm not too sure Britain would ever have bothered giving in to a bunch of Jewish extremists who obviously couldn't comprehend the concept of peace.

I don't think we should favor/help either side. Both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to live there. We should work with moderates from both sides to work out a peaceful compromise that would equally benefit everyone. We need to stop playing favorites.

Under no conditions should the US support Israel. It hurts our national sercurity and no longer in our interests. Israeli occupation of land that rightful belongs to Palestinians is wrong. Especially the way they go about it, it is brutual with no respect for Palestinians or people in general.

Under no conditions should the US support Israel. It hurts our national sercurity and no longer in our interests. Israeli occupation of land that rightful belongs to Palestinians is wrong. Especially the way they go about it, it is brutual with no respect for Palestinians or people in general.

You think Palestinians blowing themselves up(killing innocents of their own at the same time) is respectful to the Jewish?

The WEST(not just the US) should be defending Israel with all their might.

6 million jews died because of the Nazi's, and it's mostly our fault for letting that happen in the first place(appeasing Hitler)

And now you people want another 6 million jewish people to die?

Christ...not THIS crap again.


Get over it already.

You think Palestinians blowing themselves up(killing innocents of their own at the same time) is respectful to the Jewish?
You fail to understand why they become matyrs. I think if most people had to live like an average Palestinian, they to would go to extremes. If you your house was bull dosed for no reason, if your family was killed in an "accidential airstrike", or watch your brother get blown up from Israeli tanks because he wanted to play soccer instead of curfew. If males werent violated in front of females and vice versa at checkpoints that take an hour more than they should, maybe you would understand why alot of Palestinians feel they dont have to be "respectful" of the Jewish occupiers.

Christ...not THIS crap again.


Get over it already.


It's hard to get over it when you have family members who were once part of it.

It's hard to get over it when you have family members who were once part of it.
We all have family members who were a part of something. I'm sure there's another safe place to store the world's Jews that doesn't have any religious, geographical conflicts. Like, say, Antarctica. :p

It's hard to get over it when you have family members who were once part of it.
It is possible though.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,389491,00.html

I don't think we should favor/help either side. Both Israelis and Palestinians have a right to live there. We should work with moderates from both sides to work out a peaceful compromise that would equally benefit everyone. We need to stop playing favorites.
YES!!!! YES!!!! YES!!!! if it sounds like I am having an orgasm over this intelligent response, it is true....... j/k

I think that the US should support Israel but not the Arabs. Israel needs help because they are surrounded by enemies. Second, Israel is the only real secular democracy in the region, besides Turkey.

That said, I don't think that Israel should be just allowed to do whatever it wants. They must be forced to abide by international law and standards of decency, especially when dealing with Palestinians.

Fuck no. Why did we put Israel there in the first place? Oh yeah, the Mid East has oil and it was in our interests to have a "stable democracy" there. Just like it was in our interests to help put Saddam in power and then it was in our interests to take him out of power. Boy, America really can do whatever the fuck we want! Perhaps that's why the Arab world, and a lot of other countries hate us?
America didn't put Israel there. The British did. The reason why there? Because for over 50 years prior to the establishment of the Israeli state, Zionists had been migrating to their ancient land of origin.

It was actually a great incovenience to America when they realised what alucrative oil source the Arab world could be, given that they had already made historical committments to Israel.

I think that the US should support Israel but not the Arabs.
Spoken like a true leftist? Not!! I guess you have no understanding of the plight of the Palestinians?

Israel needs help because they are surrounded by enemies.
Gee, I wonder why that is?

Second, Israel is the only real secular democracy in the region, besides Turkey.
The US should only support "secular democracies"?

That said, I don't think that Israel should be just allowed to do whatever it wants.
But they do?

They must be forced to abide by international law and standards of decency, especially when dealing with Palestinians.
They don't have to abide by International laws as long as the US vetoes every UN Resolution asking them to abide by International law.

the main problem is that the Brittish felt guilt after WWII because they didn't do anything for the Jews beforehand (not that they felt any guilt for all the Roma's, homosexual, communist etc.) and then stole the land from the Palestinians to give it as a gift to Jews ...

IMO the brittish should if anything have given them a small part of britain ... and not some part of a forgein country (which they ruled over though) in which there allready was some fighting between the jews that lived there, the Muslims that was the majority there and the christians ... but no ... Isreal just had to be placed there where they would piss most people off and not hurting Britain ... Isreal should be abolished and placed another place where theres room for them ...

and no ... i have nothing ageinst Jews at all ... i'm Jew myself (not that i'm a avid believer but thats another story) ... but placing Isreal there is just plain idiotic when looking on the whole scene in ME at that time

Cut off funding to Israel and the Palestinians. If they negotiate and come to terms, wonderful. If they continue to kill eachother in an everlasting cycle of vioence, so be it. But at least they won't be doing it on any other nations' dimes.

Well, actually, the Arabs hate Isreal because it's pretty much a secular European nation in the middle of the deeply religious (and Islam) Middle East. Additionally, don't think for a second that Isreal can survive without the United States. Had we not been pumping the IDF full of fighter jets, tanks, and special forces training, they would have been overrun long ago.

Well, actually, the Arabs hate Isreal because it's pretty much a secular European nation in the middle of the deeply religious (and Islam) Middle East. Additionally, don't think for a second that Isreal can survive without the United States. Had we not been pumping the IDF full of fighter jets, tanks, and special forces training, they would have been overrun long ago.

Would they? Why?

[x] the US should support Israel but not the Arabs

The Jews have been chastized faar too long by lots of people (esp. the Arabs). It's time to help them out.

Well, actually, the Arabs hate Isreal because it's pretty much a secular European nation in the middle of the deeply religious (and Islam) Middle East. Additionally, don't think for a second that Isreal can survive without the United States. Had we not been pumping the IDF full of fighter jets, tanks, and special forces training, they would have been overrun long ago.

No, the Arabs hate Israel because it's inhabited by "infidels" on muslim holy land. In Israel, a muslim can't even become a citizen, how's that for "a secular European nation"? Israel has some 300 nukes, and the best and most sophisticated military in the middle east. They can handle themselves just fine.

As long as we need an ally in the Middle East, we should. Israel is the only nation in the Middle East who we can trust to support us in any circumstance in that region, and we need a regional hub for our military in the event of a full-blown war. Not to mention Israel is very close to the Suez Canal, which helps in the event of an attempt to close it.

Fuck no. Why did we put Israel there in the first place? Oh yeah, the Mid East has oil and it was in our interests to have a "stable democracy" there. Just like it was in our interests to help put Saddam in power and then it was in our interests to take him out of power. Boy, America really can do whatever the fuck we want! Perhaps that's why the Arab world, and a lot of other countries hate us?

I guess that little detail called the Holocaust played no role, eh?

BTW, Israel was not set up by the USA.
You might want to read up on the Balfour Declaration (UK) and the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (1948).

I thought by the way people big up Israel, especially their armed forces, that they wouldn't need any help any more - even if you do think that Israel has more of a right to exist than mere arab states. Can't they stand on their own two feet?

I guess that little detail called the Holocaust played no role, eh?
Why should it?

BTW, Israel was not set up by the USA.
You might want to read up on the Balfour Declaration (UK) and the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (1948).

I guess I should have said "British" or "Western world," because we sure are defending it like it's everything to us. I've got enough reading cut out for me anyways.

Why should it?

If your people were murdered wholesale for the better part of a decade and decimated, wouldn't you want to go to a country of your own? Remember, Jews have lived in Europe since the earliest days of Rome. They'd survived purges and such before. Then, in the "civilized" 20th Century, the biggest slaughter of all time comes.

That seems a MUCH bigger reason than some revisionist thinking about stable democracies.

I guess I should have said "British" or "Western world," because we sure are defending it like it's everything to us. I've got enough reading cut out for me anyways.

Yep. :)

If your people were murdered wholesale for the better part of a decade and decimated, wouldn't you want to go to a country of your own? Remember, Jews have lived in Europe since the earliest days of Rome. They'd survived purges and such before. Then, in the "civilized" 20th Century, the biggest slaughter of all time comes.
I do believe that slaughter was over when Israel was created so there was really no need. Also, why put it where it is? To piss off Muslims? Why not create the Jew country on Antarctica? :p

I don't get it, Why haven't the UN and US sent in Peacekeeping Forces allready? I mean...It's obvious that they won't work it out on their own, they need a buffert-zone, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet...but oh yeah I forgot...Israel isn't some 3rd world country, they would get mad at us for butting in on the wrong side of the fence or in between the fences, and OMG they could call us nazis and stuff if we did that!!!

As long as we need an ally in the Middle East, we should. Israel is the only nation in the Middle East who we can trust to support us in any circumstance in that region, and we need a regional hub for our military in the event of a full-blown war. Not to mention Israel is very close to the Suez Canal, which helps in the event of an attempt to close it.
We don't need an ally in the Middle East; we need some one we can provoke and nudge behind the curtains to do what we want out on stage.

I do believe that slaughter was over when Israel was created so there was really no need. Also, why put it where it is? To piss off Muslims? Why not create the Jew country on Antarctica? :p
good point

We don't need an ally in the Middle East; we need some one we can provoke and nudge behind the curtains to do what we want out on stage.

If we have an ally, it's a lot easier to "encourage" other nations in the region in to doing what we want them to as part of our regional policy objectives. Not to mention that Israel has no known deposits of oil, making it a less serious loss if we decide to leave it...strategically speaking.

I believe the West should help both sides to work for piece. Dubya is wrong, Israeli Arabs have the same rights as any citizen of Israel, although they do continue to face greater hardship then Jewish Israelis due to racism, a greater likelyhood of living in rural areas without much work and other factors. Israeli Arabs are members of the Knesset and have sat on the Supreme Court.

I do believe that slaughter was over when Israel was created so there was really no need. Also, why put it where it is? To piss off Muslims? Why not create the Jew country on Antarctica? :p

If you actually survived the holocaust, would you want to live amongst the neighbors that did nothing to save you? Few would. To this day the Jewish population in Germany and Austria is absurdly low.

How about because the Levant Coast was their historical homeland?

I know this may come as a shock to you, but the UN and the British worked on the problem for *years*. Many people, most of the pretty bright. Does it really gall you that Israel was the solution they came up with?

Ah, the Iranian line. Lovely.
* First, the Antarctic Treaty (1961) prohibits this. (Article 4)
* Second, from fish and penguins, there are no natural resources that are anything like exploitable. How could such a country even function?
* Third, being 98% ice and 2% barren rock... not a very inviting place to build.
* Fourth, temperatures average around -25C, and have been recorded down to -89C that would make it pretty inhospitable, no?

At the end of the day, such a solution would be as sensible as giving Germany to the Jews are reparations and moving GERMANY to Antactica. :rolleyes:

Fuck no. Why did we put Israel there in the first place? Oh yeah, the Mid East has oil and it was in our interests to have a "stable democracy" there. Just like it was in our interests to help put Saddam in power and then it was in our interests to take him out of power. Boy, America really can do whatever the fuck we want! Perhaps that's why the Arab world, and a lot of other countries hate us?
Hey, it was Britain that put Israel there! I don't recall America having an empire that it could carve into countries as it pleased.

After all that the Jews have gone though, they deserve their own nation, but I think non-Jews should be aloowed to liev their too. We should support Isreal, but only when tring to start peace talks with Isreal and Palenstine.

No, the Arabs hate Israel because it's inhabited by "infidels" on muslim holy land. In Israel, a muslim can't even become a citizen, how's that for "a secular European nation"? Israel has some 300 nukes, and the best and most sophisticated military in the middle east. They can handle themselves just fine.

What I meant by secular European nation is that the vast majority of the citizens of Isreal are of European and North American descent, which, as you correctly stated, makes them infidels in the eyes of the Arab world.

The only reason that Isreal has the most sopishticated military in the region is because of the West, particularly that of the United States. Look at the Isreali military, espacially their indomitable air force. All Western equipment (F-15s, F-4s, Mirage series jets, M-60 Pattons, M-16s), with some indiginous and captured Arab equipment. Had the West not pumped weapons into Isreal, it wouldn't have survived nearly as long as it has.

Although the nukes do help to keep the peace nowadays.

and had we destroyed Hitler when he took Czechoslovakia, than I wouldn't be in this forum right now disagreeing with you that we should let Israel be destroyed by a bunch of Islam fundamentalist, who obviously do not comprehend the concept of PEACE

Rather than abandon Israel, it would be more prudent to remove unilateral support, as their continued presence in the occupied is clearly counterproductive and unjustified. Besides, they have nuclear weapons.


Second, Israel is the only real secular democracy in the region, besides Turkey.

The Palestinians in the territories have no vote.

As long as we need an ally in the Middle East.

Hmmmmm. Fuck what "you" need. America destroyed its original inhabitants and thats their lot. I fail to see why it should be allowed to help Israel do the same in these supposedly "civillised" times. There is no "manifest destiny", nor is the world Americas oyster. The age of empires is dead. Should life start appearing in its rancid corpse it should be shot behind the ear.


Why haven't the UN and US sent in Peacekeeping Forces allready? .

US forces would not be acceptable, for obvious reasons. The US vetoes any attempt at proper UN peacekeeping force.


Israeli Arabs have the same rights as any citizen of Israel.

And what about the laws concerning marriage? The building of barricades around Israeli Arab villages? The problems with planning permission?
What about this, for instance?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1560147,00.html


Hey, it was Britain that put Israel there!.

They put themselves there, with British approval. Israel created itself by the removal of the british via the kind of thing they criticise the Palestinians for.

Hmmmmm. Fuck what "you" need. America destroyed its original inhabitants and thats their lot. I fail to see why it should be allowed to help Israel do the same in these supposedly "civillised" times. There is no "manifest destiny", nor is the world Americas oyster. The age of empires is dead. Should life start appearing in its rancid corpse it should be shot behind the ear..

The US wants to maintain its dominance, and the US will do what it needs to maintain its dominance. The age of empires is long over; the physical empire is being replaced by networks of states bound together by common policy and strategic goals, and at present American interests are best suited by supporting Israel.

Israel doesn't need American support, but may as well make things easier.

After all that the Jews have gone though, they deserve their own nation.
I love how everyone paints the Jews as victims. They dont deserve their own nation, especially in the middle of Arab land. If anything they should go to Germany and set up camp there. What they are doing to the Palestians is nothing better than what the nazis did.

-snip-
Do not misquote me again please. I never said anything about Britain putting Israel there.

I was talking about Israeli Arabs, who have citizenship, whereas Palestinians do not.
I love how everyone paints the Jews as victims. They dont deserve their own nation, especially in the middle of Arab land. If anything they should go to Germany and set up camp there. What they are doing to the Palestians is nothing better than what the nazis did.
*Looks around for concentration camps and genocide* *Finds none*

The Jews have just as much right to live there as Arabs and Christians. Not MORE right, mind you, but just as much. Besides, this agument is rediculous. Israel IS there and ISN'T going anywhere, so give it a rest.

The Jews have just as much right to live there as Arabs and Christians. Not MORE right, mind you, but just as much. Besides, this agument is rediculous. Israel IS there and ISN'T going anywhere, so give it a rest.

We aren't arguing if Isreal is there and whether or not it should go, we're arguing over whether the United States should continue it's support of Isreal.

Do not misquote me again please. I never said anything about Britain putting Israel there. ..

An error on my part, rather than a deliberate miquote. I have edited the post


I was talking about Israeli Arabs, who have citizenship, whereas Palestinians do not..

Yet Israel is the effective ruler of same since 1967, without their consent. That sort of puts paid to the "democracy" line really.

*Looks around for concentration camps and genocide* *Finds none*

The Jews have just as much right to live there as Arabs and Christians. Not MORE right, mind you, but just as much. Besides, this agument is rediculous. Israel IS there and ISN'T going anywhere, so give it a rest.
However they do set up ghettos and keep people in 24 hour curfew while cutting infrastructure on a whim, like the nazis. And like the nazis they torture, occupy land through war and force, and treat Arabs as less than human. They also kill many more Palestians than the western media reports, they are trying to remove the Arabs one by one. For the past few centuries that has been ARAB land, when the jews 1st went to Palestine it was something like 97% Arab. They DONT have any right to the land.

The US wants to maintain its dominance, and the US will do what it needs to maintain its dominance. The age of empires is long over; the physical empire is being replaced by networks of states bound together by common policy and strategic goals, and at present American interests are best suited by supporting Israel.

In other words, what you're describing is imperialism without the colonialism. The United States does not need to dominate, because this incites terrorism and resentment among the Arab world. Also, by now Israel is fully capable of defending itself, it doesn't need American warplanes and tanks, so why provide them?

I love how everyone paints the Jews as victims. They dont deserve their own nation, especially in the middle of Arab land. If anything they should go to Germany and set up camp there. What they are doing to the Palestians is nothing better than what the nazis did.

Thats pushing it a bit, as if they had been doing a tenth of what the Nazis did, there would be no Palestinians left by now. "Some of what they are doing" would be a better way of expressing it, if thats the route you want to take.

In other words, what you're describing is imperialism without the colonialism. The United States does not need to dominate, because this incites terrorism and resentment among the Arab world. Also, by now Israel is fully capable of defending itself, it doesn't need American warplanes and tanks, so why provide them?

Pretty much. The US doesn't need to dominate, but we want to...it's the same as any nation who was at one point the most powerful in the world; we try to hold on to it even though it's not really appropriate, beneficial, or the ideal path for the future simply because of nostalgia and a desire to rule once again.

Israel is pretty much a vestigal organ of the Cold-War era Middle East.

In other words, what you're describing is imperialism without the colonialism. The United States does not need to dominate, because this incites terrorism and resentment among the Arab world. Also, by now Israel is fully capable of defending itself, it doesn't need American warplanes and tanks, so why provide them?

Exactly my point.

The US wants to maintain its dominance, and the US will do what it needs to maintain its dominance. The age of empires is long over; the physical empire is being replaced by networks of states bound together by common policy and strategic goals, and at present American interests are best suited by supporting Israel.

And as I said earlier, in terms which I thought fairly unequivocal "fuck the US". Its US intereference which has taken the legacy of the imperial powers and made a worse bags of it than it already was.

And the US is not interested in "networks of states" as that implies a degree of partnership. This is the same country that constantly seeks to be free of the same restrictions that other nations are willing to adhere to for some common good.

And if you want a clear example of the refusal of the US to adhere to anthing outside its own limited ideas of what serves its best interests, theres no better example that its unilateral support of the Israeli occupation.

Pretty much. The US doesn't need to dominate, but we want to...it's the same as any nation who was at one point the most powerful in the world; we try to hold on to it even though it's not really appropriate, beneficial, or the ideal path for the future simply because of nostalgia and a desire to rule once again.

Israel is pretty much a vestigal organ of the Cold-War era Middle East.

Oh, and here I was thinking you were FOR American domination!:p

Oh, and here I was thinking you were FOR American domination!:p

Nah, I just know why they do it.

I love how everyone paints the Jews as victims. They dont deserve their own nation, especially in the middle of Arab land. If anything they should go to Germany and set up camp there. What they are doing to the Palestians is nothing better than what the nazis did.

How is Israel raising Palestine's living standards not better than what the nazis did. It's a hell lot better.

You are making it sound like Israel wants to take over the world and is sending Arabs to death camps. Death camps and world domination is what the NAZIS did if you read history. Israel on the other hand is returning to their holy land. All attacks done by Israel are purely self-defense. Nazi Germany on the other OFFENSIVELY took over nations.

The Jews are the victims, they always have been the victims for the longest of times(look back in History, Jews have always been treated harshly with racist laws against them)

So if you think Jews are not the victim, than you are obviously a racist yourself.

And as I said earlier, in terms which I thought fairly unequivocal "fuck the US". Its US intereference which has taken the legacy of the imperial powers and made a worse bags of it than it already was.

And the US is not interested in "networks of states" as that implies a degree of partnership. This is the same country that constantly seeks to be free of the same restrictions that other nations are willing to adhere to for some common good.

And if you want a clear example of the refusal of the US to adhere to anthing outside its own limited ideas of what serves its best interests, theres no better example that its unilateral support of the Israeli occupation.

Kyoto Treaty, anyone?

How is Israel raising Palestine's living standards not better than what the nazis did. It's a hell lot better.

You are making it sound like Israel wants to take over the world and is sending Arabs to death camps. Death camps and world domination is what the NAZIS did if you read history. Israel on the other hand is returning to their holy land. All attacks done by Israel are purely self-defense. Nazi Germany on the other OFFENSIVELY took over nations.

The Jews are the victims, they always have been the victims for the longest of times(look back in History, Jews have always been treated harshly with racist laws against them)

So if you think Jews are not the victim, than you are obviously a racist yourself.

So, rolling Merkavas through towns and rocketing civilians with AH-1s are acts of self-defense? Couldn't they just offer to make peace with the Arabs instead of being stubborn idiots?

I think that we shouldn't support Israel (or the Arabs) because those people have hated each other for thousands of years and Condoleeza Rice isn't going to change that no matter how hard she tries. Supporting one side, or both sides, as we do, only makes it worse and even more confusing.

Just my opinon.
If we don't, who the hell will?

How is Israel raising Palestine's living standards not better than what the nazis did. It's a hell lot better.

You are making it sound like Israel wants to take over the world and is sending Arabs to death camps. Death camps and world domination is what the NAZIS did if you read history. Israel on the other hand is returning to their holy land. All attacks done by Israel are purely self-defense. Nazi Germany on the other OFFENSIVELY took over nations.

The Jews are the victims, they always have been the victims for the longest of times(look back in History, Jews have always been treated harshly with racist laws against them)

So if you think Jews are not the victim, than you are obviously a racist yourself.

Regardless of who is the victim, the US is in a very precarious position right now in the Middle East, with all the shit that's going down in Iraq. Israel is fully capable of protecting itself, we don't need to support them, and we don't need to aggravate the Arabs even more. Abu Gharib is bad enough.

If we don't, who the hell will?

Germany?

They're the bastards responsible for the Holocaust.

Nah, I just know why they do it.

Sorry, my irony-ometer and saracasmeter are banjaxed.

:rolleyes: :sniper:

I think that we shouldn't support Israel (or the Arabs) because those people have hated each other for thousands of years and Condoleeza Rice isn't going to change that no matter how hard she tries. Supporting one side, or both sides, as we do, only makes it worse and even more confusing.

Just my opinon.

Actually, alot of this hatred was fostered by the Nazis during WWII. Hell, the Baath party in Iraq was modelled after Germany's Nazi party.

So, rolling Merkavas through towns and rocketing civilians with AH-1s are acts of self-defense? Couldn't they just offer to make peace with the Arabs instead of being stubborn idiots?
I suppose blowing up shopping malls and schoolbuses filled with children is so much better? Israel has tried to make peace with the Arabs. Have they always done the right thing? No, not at all, but it takes two to tango. Obviously though, it is much easier for people to support one side then to find middle ground.

Supporting Isreal is the number one reason that the Muslim world hates us. If we just cut the shit out, we'd have a lot less to worry about.

you people want another 6 million jewish people to die?:rolleyes: Dont be an idiot.. We do NOT want that.. The WEST(not just the US) should be defending Israel with all their might.Israel and the Palestineans are using Terrorism.. You want us to support Terrorism ???
We would be Idiots to listen to you. (or Bush)
6 million jews died (in death camps) Prove it.
I hear a lot of numbers.. 20 millions, 12M, 6M, 1 million, etc.. But They do not have Proof.
There is no proof. We do not even know how many of them were Poles, Russians, Romanians, Homosexuals, mentally ill, etc.

We should support neither but just lead the nogotiations and restore the pace if needed by violance, if Isreal would go further then building that anti-human rights fence and there colonies we should support the arabs. If Hamas begins a large scale war/terriorist action we should support Isreal. But we shouldn't help them to win but not to lose or if it realy can't be handeled anymore take over the entire area and just divide the land to the Palestinians and Isrealians, but never help the one to deafed and conquor the other.

I suppose blowing up shopping malls and schoolbuses filled with children is so much better? Israel has tried to make peace with the Arabs. Have they always done the right thing? No, not at all, but it takes two to tango. Obviously though, it is much easier for people to support one side then to find middle ground.

Not true, the arabs also tried to make peace but Isreal hasn't given anything to them in order to achieve that, pace should come from both, both should give things in this case, not only the arabs as Isreal is trying

I suppose blowing up shopping malls and schoolbuses filled with children is so much better? Israel has tried to make peace with the Arabs. Have they always done the right thing? No, not at all, but it takes two to tango. Obviously though, it is much easier for people to support one side then to find middle ground.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Can you prove that?

Well seeing as all except fringe tin-foil hat people, bigots and religous nuts of a few denominations know it to be true, I'd say the onus was on you to prove otherwise.

(and there was me thinking I couldn't answer that without typing "Fuck off" at least once....)

Jews were only one ethinc group Hitler and the Germans targeted during the Holocaust, yet I don't see a all-Gypsie state or all Slavic state, do I?

:rolleyes: Dont be an idiot.. We do NOT want that.. Israel and the Palestineans are using Terrorism.. You want us to support Terrorism ???
We would be Idiots to listen to you. (or Bush)Can you prove that?

Well well well

Looks like we got ourselves a holocaust denier? How about ex-Nazi family members eye-witness accounts of papers being signed to mass-exterminate jews(and regretting it). The hundreds of photos of dead bodies and mass graves. Gas chambers being found. Documents being found. I think there is quite enough evidence that 6 million jews died in the Holocaust, and another 6 million minorities died as well.

And what the fuck are you talking about? Me support terrorism? I think you sniffed a little too much of that paint pal, because last time I checked Conservatives and Right-wingers such as myself have the harshest policies AGAINST terrorism...My goal is to DESTROY it, not feed it. That's the Liberals job to support Terrorism.

Israel is not using terrorism. They are not the ones blowing themselves up. They are using an actual military to restore order. If you do not know that terrorists are actually a group of lunatics using guarella tactics, and not a Government associated department(like the actual military is) than you my friend are uneducated.

I'd say the onus was on you to prove. You want me to Prove that there is different Numbers (20M, 12M, 6M, 2M, etc) being proposed ?

sure, I can do that

How is Israel raising Palestine's living standards not better than what the nazis did. It's a hell lot better.

You are making it sound like Israel wants to take over the world and is sending Arabs to death camps. Death camps and world domination is what the NAZIS did if you read history. Israel on the other hand is returning to their holy land. All attacks done by Israel are purely self-defense. Nazi Germany on the other OFFENSIVELY took over nations.

The Jews are the victims, they always have been the victims for the longest of times(look back in History, Jews have always been treated harshly with racist laws against them)

So if you think Jews are not the victim, than you are obviously a racist yourself.

Bulldozing houses, imposing curfews, fencing in communities, and giving Jews priority over non-Jews in the distribution of water is NOT increasing the living standards of the Palestinians (and is clearly racist). The Israelis are not treating the Palestinians as badly as the Nazi's treated the Jews; but they are treating the Palestinians worse than the white South Africans treated the black ones. The attacks by the Israelis are not at all purely self-defensive (as can be seen by them building settlements on land that is not rightfully theirs, them killing far more Palestinians than the other way around, and most cease fires being broken by Israel); and I think the Palestinians are quite justified in their hostility. They lived in Palestine for hundreds of years (it is irrelevant to the present that Israel inhabited Palestine thousands of years ago, Germanic people inhabited Austria and Poland thousands of years ago)and then because of an atrocity that they were not involved in 60% of their land is given to the Jews without them getting any say in the matter; and then after that Israel refused to even acknowledge Palestine (which is what led to the other Arab states refusing to acknowledge Israel). For Jews always being the victims; historically (prior to WWI) the Jews were treated better by the Arabs than by the Europeans; there is no genuine history of conflict between the two peoples. And should we give Gypsies their own nation? They have always been oppressed and persecuted, they too were targeted by the Nazis for elimination, and even today they are the target of racism that far exceeds that directed at the Jews.

Supporting Israel is causing far more harm than good and is the source of a large amount of the hostility directed at the US by the Arabs. We stop being involved. Israel already has the greatest military in the middle east and if that isn't enough for them they can learn how to get along with their neighbors. We have no more obligation to protect the Jews than we do to protect the Arabs; especially since there is no innocent party in this conflict. Israel cannot rightfully be considered a secular democracy, but rather a Theocratic Republic.

How is Israel raising Palestine's living standards not better than what the nazis did. It's a hell lot better.
How are they making life better? Is it the wall they put up to steal even MORE LAND from arabs while at the same time cutting off the Palestian economy, or could it be the Israelis cutting funding to the PA and refusing to give taxes they collect from the Palestians to the PA, which will destroy the little infrastructure in place, just because they elected someone the Israelis dont like. You know what I dont like who the Israelis elected, lets cut all funding to them.

You are making it sound like Israel wants to take over the world and is sending Arabs to death camps. Death camps and world domination is what the NAZIS did if you read history.
They are doing it, just on a smaller scale inside Palestine(not full blown death camps but they dont kill off their share of Arabs), they do it in a way that most western dont see whats really going on.


Israel on the other hand is returning to their holy land.
Please, God didnt give anyone anything, and if we all go back to where we came from thousands of years go, then we should all be in Africa. In recent history that is Arab land.

All attacks done by Israel are purely self-defense. Nazi Germany on the other OFFENSIVELY took over nations.
oh of course stupid me, its always the airstrike in response to a bombing not the other way around:rolleyes: The only reason you think it is because thats the way the western media makes it look, you have know idea what really goes on there.

The Jews are the victims, they always have been the victims for the longest of times(look back in History, Jews have always been treated harshly with racist laws against them)
Christ, EVERY race has been treated roughly at one point, Catholic Italians were once treated poorly in America. Im over that, so get over the whole "those poor jews" bs.
So if you think Jews are not the victim, than you are obviously a racist yourself.
Everone loves to play the race card when they got nothing else. Ive very much against illegal immigration, and all people tell me is Im racist against Mexicans. Thats not it at all, so please.

Looks like we got ourselves a holocaust denier? How about ex-Nazi family members eye-witness accounts of papers being signed to mass-exterminate jews(and regretting it). Do you have a Link to the Pics.. and Is there any numbers?

Jews were only one ethinc group Hitler and the Germans targeted during the Holocaust, yet I don't see a all-Gypsie state or all Slavic state, do I?
Or, for that matter, an all gay state. And your point?

Well well well

Looks like we got ourselves a holocaust denier? .

You'll find the term "Gobshite" more appropriate. However its up to you.



And what the fuck are you talking about? Me support terrorism? I think you sniffed a little too much of that paint pal, because last time I checked Conservatives and Right-wingers such as myself have the harshest policies AGAINST terrorism...My goal is to DESTROY it, not feed it. That's the Liberals job to support Terrorism..

*cough cough CONTRAS cough cough


Israel is not using terrorism. They are not the ones blowing themselves up. They are using an actual military to restore order. If you do not know that terrorists are actually a group of lunatics using guarella tactics, and not a Government associated department(like the actual military is) than you my friend are uneducated.

The Lehi, the Irgun...what were they precisely?

And restoring order rarely means securing land for settlements, bulldozing houses, and shooting school girls. In fact, it creates disorder.

That's the Liberals job to support Terrorism.LOL its their "job"..
That so childish.
How old are you?

The US wants to maintain its dominance, and the US will do what it needs to maintain its dominance. The age of empires is long over; the physical empire is being replaced by networks of states bound together by common policy and strategic goals, and at present American interests are best suited by supporting Israel.
You should read this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400061326/102-2722547-4867342).

Well well well

Looks like we got ourselves a holocaust denier? How about ex-Nazi family members eye-witness accoutns of papers being signed to mass-exterminate jews(and regretting it). The hundreds of photos of dead bodies and mass graves. Gas chambers being found. Documents being found. I think there is quite enough evidence that 6 million jews died in the Holocaust, and another 6 million minorities died as well.

And what the fuck are you talking about? Me support terrorism? I think you sniffed a little too much of that paint pal, because last time I checked Conservatives and Right-wingers such as myself have the harshest policies AGAINST terrorism...My goal is to DESTROY it, not feed it. That's the Liberals job to support Terrorism.

Israel is not using terrorism. They are not the ones blowing themselves up. They are using an actual military to restore order. If you do not know that terrorists are actually a group of lunatics using guarella tactics, and not a Government associated department(like the actual military is) than you my friend are uneducated.

I'm liberal, and I'm don't support terrorism. So that makes you a generalizing bigot. In addition, terrorism is any attack on civilians by ideologically (politically or religiously) motivated individuals. While the Palestinians are using terrorist tactics against both Israeli civilians and soldiers, the Israelis are launching strikes against Palestinian villages, often not taking care (or just not giving a flying fuck) to whether or not they're hitting terrorists or civilians. Terrorism can be government supported, too.

The thing is, the leaders of Western nations, including Israel, tend to want to "take down the terrorists" instead of fighting the problem at its source. You don't fight the disease by fighting the symptoms.

To round off my response, please, spell and punctuate correctly before calling someone else uneducated.

and shooting school girls. In fact, it creates disorder.
True story, I have seen countless videos of this, and shooting at school boys. Its like shooting at innocent kids is a game for the Israelis

What I meant in my post was NOT that an eye for an eye is correct, but that BOTH sides are at fault in this conflict.

And Oceandrive, just stop posting in threads on this topic, PLEASE! It just turns everything into a debate over your Holocaust denial, nixing the rest of the discussion a fair amount of the time. Either get a reality check and accept the concrete evidence of Nazi brutality like the rest of the modern world or at least have the good sense to not drag these sorts of thread OT.

If we don't, who the hell will?
who cares, honestly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Perhaps you should all read that word for word and comprehend it.

(yes Oceandrive, that means you, there's even some sick pictures in there that you so wanted to badly see. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Perhaps you should all read that word for word and comprehend it.
You have no idea how angry you just made me.:mad:

Jews do not a monopoly on the holocaust and it deosn't give them the right to demand the support of the West for all eternity. The world would probably be a lot more peacful today if the Nais had been succsesful, and certainly a lot less annoying.

My goal is to DESTROY it, not feed it. That's the Liberals job to support Terrorism.

Israel is not using terrorism. They are not the ones blowing themselves up. They are using an actual military to restore order.
1st, by supporting Israel you could not, if you tried, feed terror more. Dont play politics with national security, no one wants terrorism or see the US get hurt, Liberal or Conservative.
The Israelis are using an actual military to impose terror on a group of people, not restore order.

despite what you may say, the Jews WERE there first. considering that was where abraham lived, is the centre of their religion and as such is their promised land.

And what the fuck are you talking about? Me support terrorism? I think you sniffed a little too much of that paint pal, because last time I checked Conservatives and Right-wingers such as myself.....HAHAHA.. Where to start?? Have you ever seen a NeoCon support The the CIA? or Mossad? overseas Assassinations? Harbor mining? Osama?, AQ? Latin American death squads? International Kiddnapping & Torture?

Have you ever seen a NeoCon support Pinochet? The Shah? Marcos? PapaDoc? Banzer? The SaudiRoyals? Stroessner? Saddam? Noriega? Videla? .. etc etc etc..

terrorism is terrorism is terrorism. We(Left, rigth, North, south) have all used it when we felt it was the only way. (and some times only because it was convenient)

Israel is not using terrorism. They are not the ones blowing themselves up. They are using an actual military to restore order. If you do not know that terrorists are actually a group of lunatics using guarella tactics, and not a Government associated department(like the actual military is) than you my friend are uneducated.

The Palestinians would gladly be blowing up Israelis with rocket launchers, tanks, and apache helicopters (the way Israelis blow up Palestinians) but since until recently they were denied the ability to even have a state they are stuck without a "governemnt associated department" and have to use gurella tactics and suicide bombings. And your division is an extremely shallow one; if killing is sponsored by the government and using an actual military to maintain the status quo (or increase their own power) it is acceptable but if it is done by a group that lacks a military and uses guerella tactics it is bad? That makes the America revolution an act of terrorism. For lunatics; each side has their share of them in the Israel/Palestine conflict (and the term "lunatic" really lacks objective content) but for the sake of argument look at their respective goals. Palestinians: regain their land from invaders and occupiers. Israel: Take land that was promised to them by a mythical being and to have a homeland to protect themselves from enemies by taking the land of people who were historically not their enemies.

You have no idea how angry you just made me.:mad:

Jews do not a monopoly on the holocaust and it deosn't give them the right to demand the support of the West for all eternity. The world would probably be a lot more peacful today if the Nais had been succsesful, and certainly a lot less annoying.

Haha, you would be a slave right now had the nazi's won. Or dead. Yea it would be more peaceful, peaceful for me.

You have no idea how angry you just made me.:mad:

Jews do not a monopoly on the holocaust and it deosn't give them the right to demand the support of the West for all eternity. The world would probably be a lot more peacful today if the Nais had been succsesful, and certainly a lot less annoying.
You may have point, I sure Im gonna get some flack for this, but in a way its true.

Haha, you would be a slave right now had the nazi's won. Or dead. Yea it would be more peaceful, peaceful for me.
I’m an American. I’m sure we could have worked out a healthy trade relationship with a Nazi/Stalin controlled Europe, had we possesed rational leaders not driven by ideology.

I’m an American. I’m sure we could have worked out a healthy trade relationship with a Nazi/Stalin controlled Europe, had we possesed rational leaders not driven by ideology.

Hitler and Japan had planned on splitting the America continents in half. So I think not.

(yes Oceandrive, that means you, there's even some sick pictures..Do you have a link for the Pics of the Papers you were talking about here http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10453904&postcount=82

..have you ever seen a Link that remotely resembles the Papers you are talking about???

Hitler and Japan had planned on splitting the America continents in half. So I think not.
Pfft. Your knowledge of history is a joke. For one, no one would ever try to invade continental America, not now anyway. It would be the biggest military disaster in history. They had more sense than that.
Also, the Japanese had no serious problem with us until FDR delibratly provoked them. A deal to sell Hawai would have made us their friends forever.

Haha, you would be a slave right now had the nazi's won. Or dead. Yea it would be more peaceful, peaceful for me.

Even if America didn't intervene (I am glad that we did) the Nazi's would not have taken over the world. It is more than likely that the Russians would have defeated them and even if they didn't the Germans would not have been able to conquer America. Stop with the Nazi's taking over the world non-sense and it is irrelevant to the topic at hand unless you think that gypsies should also get their own homeland.

despite what you may say, the Jews WERE there first. considering that was where abraham lived, is the centre of their religion and as such is their promised land.

That is irrelevant. The Muslims and Christians also trace their religion back to Abraham and it is extraordinarily unlikely that Abraham actually existed (considering that Moses did not). And using that argument, we should give America back to the Native Americans. Central America back to the Aztecs (no wait the Mayans), all of South America to the natives. Australia back to the aboriginees. Africa back to its people. England back to the celts. And on and on and on.

extraordinarily unlikely that Abraham actually existed (considering that Moses did not).
It maybe slightly off topic, but how do you know Moses didnt exsist?

Even if America didn't intervene (I am glad that we did) the Nazi's would not have taken over the world. It is more than likely that the Russians would have defeated them and even if they didn't the Germans would not have been able to conquer America.
Actually, without ANY US interfearance, that includes shipping supplies, the Russians would have most definatly fought the Nazis to a standstill and the Cold War would have probably been between Russia and Germany.

It maybe slightly off topic, but how do you know Moses didnt exsist?

There is no archaological evidence at all that suggests that the Jews were ever enslaved by the Egyptians (and an abundance of evidence as to how the pyramids and other great features were constructed by the native people). If the Jews were never enslaved, they never had a liberator. I suppose it is a possibility that there was a great Jewish leader named Moses; but if there was he bore no resemblance to the biblical Moses.

Pfft. Your knowledge of history is a joke. For one, no one would ever try to invade continental America, not now anyway. It would be the biggest military disaster in history. They had more sense than that.
Also, the Japanese had no serious problem with us until FDR delibratly provoked them. A deal to sell Hawai would have made us their friends forever.

Hey, let's bend over for the Nazis and Japs! What a splendid idea!

Hey, let's bend over for the Nazis and Japs! What a splendid idea!

How would non-involvement amount to submission? The Nazis were interested in conquering Europe, the Japanese in conquering Asia and the Pacific. Japan showed no hostility to America until we provoked them. Germany showed no hostility to America until we got involved.

Do you have a link for the Pics of the Papers you were talking about here http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10453904&postcount=82

..have you ever seen a Link that remotely resembles the Papers you are talking about???

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430129-vergasungskeller/vergasungskeller.gif

I translate "The reinforced concrete ceiling of the morgue(gas chambers) could not yet be eliminated due to the freezing weather. However, this is not significant, as the gassing cellar can be used for this purpose."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430129-electricity/electricity.gif

I translate parts that refer to the chambers

"The crematorium can be completed to this extent"

"However, this initial start-up can only cover limited use of the available machines (whereby a cremation with simultaneous special treatment is made possible), since the electrical wire going to the crematorium is too weak for its power consumption."

This memo is important because it states explicitly that cremation will be possible simultaneously with "special treatment," but only if the equipment is used in a limited fashion. "Special treatment" was the Nazi code-word for murder, in this case mass murder by gassing. It was important to the camp staff to be able to conduct both operations at once if necessary.

http://www.mazal.org/Auschwitz%20Docs/aus-1-002.JPG


This is a document is a request for electric "corpse" elevators for [illegible]

" As is obvious throughout, the firm Topf und Söhne, Erfurt, has received a contract from the Central Construction Office for the delivery of two electric corpse elevators. "

Any native Germans in here please correct my translations. By the way, in the third document, it says "Reference - Ohne". I know Ohne means "Without", but in this case would it mean "None"?

Pfft. Your knowledge of history is a joke. For one, no one would ever try to invade continental America, not now anyway. It would be the biggest military disaster in history. They had more sense than that.
Also, the Japanese had no serious problem with us until FDR delibratly provoked them. A deal to sell Hawai would have made us their friends forever.

Hey, thats great. You could just have let Europe get overrun by first the Nazi's and then the USSR, allow tens of millions to die in the fighting and purges and the concentration camps. Sure, who gives a damn about those Jews or those Brits or the rest of the countries overrun by those two countries? And of course, you wouldn't have been attacked either, of course not. It's not like Hitler and his cronies had any plans to invade the continental US, is it?

Oh wait - they did. They called for the development of an Amerika Bomber capable of striking the continental US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_Bomber - They also developed plans for striking the US. Don't be so arrogant to think that the US would have survived more than twenty or so years after the end of the European conflict.

I don't think there's any reason why we should be funneling millions of dollars to assist the IDF each year while the Palestinians get a fraction of that in "development aid." We would have a lot higher standing if the U.S. wasn't so blatantly hypocritical. If our policy is truly a "two-state solution," then let's stop playing favorites.

That being said the Palestinians (specifically Hamas) needs to realize it can't have its feet in both terrorism and politics simultaneously. Instead of intervening, though, we should let them implode on their own. The same thing happened with the IRA, and it could happen with these radical Islamic groups (who are actually not representative of the majority of Muslims, by the way). Oh, yeah, Israel needs to stop bulldozing Palestinian homes and settlement construction if they ever want a peaceful resolution.

Pfft. Your knowledge of history is a joke. For one, no one would ever try to invade continental America, not now anyway. It would be the biggest military disaster in history. They had more sense than that.
Also, the Japanese had no serious problem with us until FDR delibratly provoked them. A deal to sell Hawai would have made us their friends forever.

Okay, it's true that Pearl Harbor occurred because FDR froze oil shipments to Japan. But imperial Japan also launched their pre-emptive strike because of fears that the U.S. would be a threat to their expansionist aims. As for the Nazis, it's a known fact that Nazi Germany had plans for "Operation Felix", an attempt to seize North Atlantic Islands in order to launch bombing campaigns against the eastern U.S. Then there's the Amerika bomber, which has already been mentioned.

Hey, thats great. You could just have let Europe get overrun by first the Nazi's and then the USSR, allow tens of millions to die in the fighting and purges and the concentration camps. Sure, who gives a damn about those Jews or those Brits or the rest of the countries overrun by those two countries? And of course, you wouldn't have been attacked either, of course not. It's not like Hitler and his cronies had any plans to invade the continental US, is it?

Oh wait - they did. They called for the development of an Amerika Bomber capable of striking the continental US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_Bomber - They also developed plans for striking the US. Don't be so arrogant to think that the US would have survived more than twenty or so years after the end of the European conflict.

Good stuff. Not to mention that in Hitler's Mein Kampf, he is also devised the plan of attacking the USA(with the help of the UK, although Hitler never knew at this point in time that the Brits had no interest in helping him at all)

Good stuff. Not to mention that in Hitler's Mein Kampf, he is also devised the plan of attacking the USA(with the help of the UK, although Hitler never knew at this point in time that the Brits had no interest in helping him at all)

Thats also true. The US wouldn't have survived more than a few decades if they hadn't intervened. With the German nuclear weapons research program creating a nearly-complete nuclear weapon by 1945 and the creation of the Amerika Bomber program, the Germans would have attacked the US around the early 1960's, maybe earlier if Barbarossa succeded. It would most likely have been a nuclear exchange which the Germans would have won, having more territory and firepower.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/19430129-vergasungskeller/vergasungskeller.gif

I translate "The reinforced concrete ceiling of the morgue(gas chambers) could not yet be eliminated due to the freezing weather. However, this is not significant, as the gassing cellar can be used for this purpose."Do you speak German?.. and does it say Morgue or Gas Chambers?

Don't pretend that the Atlantic can make us invincible to attack. An invasion doesn't have to occur in NYC, the Axis could have easily landed in South America or even Canada and progressed slowly towards the United States.

But enough of these arguements about what-if scenarios, let's get back on track.

Well well well

Looks like we got ourselves a holocaust denier? How about ex-Nazi family members eye-witness accounts of papers being signed to mass-exterminate jews(and regretting it). The hundreds of photos of dead bodies and mass graves. Gas chambers being found. Documents being found. I think there is quite enough evidence that 6 million jews died in the Holocaust, and another 6 million minorities died as well.

And what the fuck are you talking about? Me support terrorism? I think you sniffed a little too much of that paint pal, because last time I checked Conservatives and Right-wingers such as myself have the harshest policies AGAINST terrorism...My goal is to DESTROY it, not feed it. That's the Liberals job to support Terrorism.

Israel is not using terrorism. They are not the ones blowing themselves up. They are using an actual military to restore order. If you do not know that terrorists are actually a group of lunatics using guarella tactics, and not a Government associated department(like the actual military is) than you my friend are uneducated.

The job of liberals is to combat terrorism with reason and intelligence, not knee-jerk reactions. Israel may not be using terrorism, but coercion by the military isn't any more justified.

I think that we shouldn't support Israel (or the Arabs) because those people have hated each other for thousands of years and Condoleeza Rice isn't going to change that no matter how hard she tries. Supporting one side, or both sides, as we do, only makes it worse and even more confusing.

Just my opinon.

(Waves fist in solidarity) Amen to that!

Since the UK controlled the administration of Palestine before the partitioning of it, they should be footing the bill, NOT THE UNITED STATES. I read that Israel gets 5 BILLION dollars PER YEAR from this country.

Five billion... think of all the places that money could go... FEMA, I'm looking your direction.

Do you speak German?.. and does it say Morgue or Gas Chambers?

I speak a little. I do believe it says Gas Chambers, and does refer to a Morgue in another part of the text. Oh, and OD2, what about the evidence of the allied troops who found the concentration camps in 1945? The hundreds of thousands of corpses, the railway cars full of dead people, the testimony of thousands of survivors of the Holocaust? And that's just the Western Allies - USSR troops found far, far worse places than the Western Allies did, with god knows how many times more dead and survivors.

And why do you always have to turn this into a Holocaust debate? We get it, you don't think it happened. Must you bring it up, or attack it if it is?

Hey, thats great. You could just have let Europe get overrun by first the Nazi's and then the USSR, allow tens of millions to die in the fighting and purges and the concentration camps. Sure, who gives a damn about those Jews or those Brits or the rest of the countries overrun by those two countries? And of course, you wouldn't have been attacked either, of course not. It's not like Hitler and his cronies had any plans to invade the continental US, is it?
You are correct in assuming that I do not care about the Europeans, yes.
Oh wait - they did. They called for the development of an Amerika Bomber capable of striking the continental US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_Bomber - They also developed plans for striking the US. Don't be so arrogant to think that the US would have survived more than twenty or so years after the end of the European conflict.
*sigh*
The USSr and the Nazis would have crippled each other militarily, and then probably made peace. They Germans would have been far too busy in a Cold War with Russia. Even if the Germans attacked us, they would have failed miserably. Imagine invading the US, which not only has shown the abilty to raise large armies quickly in the past, but as an extensivly well armed populace.

Also, if you are worried about the fact that Hitler was almost ceritfiable by the end of the war, he probably wouldn't have lasted more than a few years anyway. Either siphilis, his medication cocktails, or a subordinate would have done him in.

Hell, I had a substitute teacher by the name of Sillman, he fought as an infantryman in Europe, and he described finding a trainload of dead Jews, as well as another story where his unit picked up German POWs (a number of which inculded women) who were fleeing from the advancing Russian forces across the river. Appearently, the Russians wanted the women. His commander said no (thinking that the Russians would have a big fat orgy with the German girls). The Russian commander then stated that these women had masscered a group of Jews as they fled from the Eastern Front. The American leader submitted, and the Russians carried them off and executed them on the opposite bank.

Fucked up stuff, huh?

And why do you always have to turn this into a Holocaust debate? We get it, you don't think it happened. Must you bring it up, or attack it if it is?I was not the one to bring it up.. Just read the posts.

Genocides did take place in WW1 and WW2.(as in many other bloody wars)

I never said Genocide "did not happen"

You are correct in assuming that I do not care about the Europeans, yes.

*sigh*
The USSr and the Nazis would have crippled each other militarily, and then probably made peace. They Germans would have been far too busy in a Cold War with Russia. Even if the Germans attacked us, they would have failed miserably. Imagine invading the US, which not only has shown the abilty to raise large armies quickly in the past, but as an extensivly well armed populace.

Also, if you are worried about the fact that Hitler was almost ceritfiable by the end of the war, he probably wouldn't have lasted more than a few years anyway. Either siphilis, his medication cocktails, or a subordinate would have done him in.

Well, it's good to see you have a complete lack of compassion, good. As for the Germany vs USSR argument, without US supplies and equipment, the USSR would most likely have fallen within a few years, or crippled to an extent it was a non-entity. Then, Germany would have advanced the nuclear weapons program it was already building and couple it with the advanced rocketry program and Amerika Bomber system it already had and launched an invasion of the US. Possibly through South Africa or what is most likely, through limited nuclear warfare and then a small invasion to ensure compliance.

As for the Hitler question. The psychosis and medication was a result of years of fear of the USSR. No USSR, a much more stable Hitler able to deal with attacking the US. No subordinate would have bumped him off, as with a successful invasion of Russia von Stauffenberg's plot would most likely have never unfolded - no loss of faith in Hitler from Stalingrad and such.

I was not the one to bring it up.. Just read the posts.

But you did turn it into a debate, as always.

Do you speak German?.. and does it say Morgue or Gas Chambers?

I was born in Frankfurt am Main, Hesse of Germany. Though my parents taught me English as my first language because they planned on moving to Canada not long after I was born.

So English is my first language, German is(I suppose) my third language(French is my second). In a way, German is my second language though(I am much more functional in German than French) and I can practise with family members on grammar(it's much easier to read it than spell it. I always have trouble with grammer)

So there's my little history, so I guess the answer to your question is "Yes" but I only speak functional German.

The word for "morgue" on there is "vergasungskeller" which is exactly what is sounds like("gassing celler") Not only does the document state that there is a gas chamber, but also that the architect constructing it knew exactly what it was used for. Intruiging, yes?

You are correct in assuming that I do not care about the Europeans, yes.

*sigh*
The USSr and the Nazis would have crippled each other militarily, and then probably made peace. They Germans would have been far too busy in a Cold War with Russia. Even if the Germans attacked us, they would have failed miserably. Imagine invading the US, which not only has shown the abilty to raise large armies quickly in the past, but as an extensivly well armed populace.

Also, if you are worried about the fact that Hitler was almost ceritfiable by the end of the war, he probably wouldn't have lasted more than a few years anyway. Either siphilis, his medication cocktails, or a subordinate would have done him in.

Germany and Russia wouldn't give up. They would keep at it until one or the other was completely battered and defeated, as Germany was by the end of the war. The citizens of these two countries were far too fanatical too engage in any pussyfooting Cold War, not to mention that they aren't seperated by two oceans and half a continent, like the USSR and America are. Hitler's replacement wouldn't have been any less wacko. Eventually, what would happen is that Europe would be ruled by either fascists or communists, and how long do you think it would take before they decided to invade the US? And trust me, it can be done. The north successfully defeated the south during the Civil War using scorched earth tactics.

Spoken like a true leftist? Not!! I guess you have no understanding of the plight of the Palestinians?
I do have an understanding of it. I'm not a Zionist nutcase. I was happy when the Israelis pulled those outrageous settlements out of Gaza.

I just see that the Palestinians have brought many (not all) of their troubles upon themselves.

Gee, I wonder why that is?
Because they're a prosperous, secular democracy that mostly is populated by Jews. Middle Eastern governments, by and large, hate Jews.

The US should only support "secular democracies"?
Yes, in my opinion.

But they do?
That should not be the case.

They don't have to abide by International laws as long as the US vetoes every UN Resolution asking them to abide by International law.
That shouldn't happen either. The US should support Israel to a reasonable extent; not act as its bitch.

So there's my little history, so I guess the answer to your question is "Yes" but I only speak functional German. allow me add a bit more (see if I am still good at this)

You are a Jewish-Canadian, You live in Montreal, and Hold both German and Canadian Citizenship..

Lucky guess?

despite what you may say, the Jews WERE there first. considering that was where abraham lived, is the centre of their religion and as such is their promised land.

No, and mythical figures are of no use to anyone or anything.

A world with no Jews and Arabs?

But I like most Jews.

And some Arabs.

especially that nice Mel Brooks. but he doesnt live over there so its ok.

I was not the one to bring it up.. Just read the posts.

Genocides did take place in WW1 and WW2.(as in many other bloody wars)

I never said Genocide "did not happen"
Why is numbers that important? 5-6 million Jewish deadi n prison camps is widely considered amongst historians, derived from inferences based on factual observations and records, as a reliable figure. There're still differing figures about how many were dead in Belarus, the Ukraine, and Poland. There are still differing figures about how many were dead in China, Nanjing Massacre inclusive. The fact however, is that we do know that teh Holocaust has happened on a magnificant scale... So why do you imply that there are "no proof"?

allow me add a bit more (see if I am still good at this)

You are a Jewish-Canadian, You live in Montreal, and Hold both German and Canadian Citizenship..

Lucky guess?

Nice guess, though wrong.

despite what you may say, the Jews WERE there first. considering that was where abraham lived, is the centre of their religion and as such is their promised land.

I could say my own religion (Velkyism) says that Florida is the promised land. Does that give me the right to evict the millions of people who live here and have lived here for hundreds of years and simply move right in?

No.

The USSr and the Nazis would have crippled each other militarily, and then probably made peace.Nah. As long as Hitler was alive there never would have been lasting peace between the Nazis and the Soviets. He's been quoted saying things along the lines of that if there was to be peace with the Russians, he'd break it again, because he just couldn't help himself.

allow me add a bit more (see if I am still good at this)

You are a Jewish-Canadian, You live in Montreal, and Hold both German and Canadian Citizenship..

Lucky guess?
It is not just the Jews on this forum who have a problem with your Holocaust denial OceanDrive2.

i don't know why we would, it's not like they need it. plus, the region has become strategically worthless, especially sense we took over afghanistan and iraq.

Hell, I had a substitute teacher by the name of Sillman, he fought as an infantryman in Europe, and he described finding a trainload of dead Jews, as well as another story where his unit picked up German POWs (a number of which inculded women) who were fleeing from the advancing Russian forces across the river. Appearently, the Russians wanted the women. His commander said no (thinking that the Russians would have a big fat orgy with the German girls). The Russian commander then stated that these women had masscered a group of Jews as they fled from the Eastern Front. The American leader submitted, and the Russians carried them off and executed them on the opposite bank.

Fucked up stuff, huh?
He's probably just lying to get attention, like many old men do.

I never said Genocide "did not happen"No, but you've based your arguements on sites that argue that Hitler was a Jew, that he was intent on destroying the Christians in concentration camps, and that concentration camps were made to keep his fellow Jews safe from Allied bombs.

The world would probably be a lot more peacful today if the Nais had been succsesful, and certainly a lot less annoying.

Shame on you! :mad:

Why is numbers that important? 5-6 million Jewish deadi n prison camps is widely considered amongst historians...hmm that word "considered"

the body remains found at the Gas Chambers (or Graveyards like the paper says) were on the hundreds of Thousands.

But lets assume for a second that Hollywood (6Million) are somewhat close to reality (after all we have yet to find the WMD).. May be that 5.5 Million bodies are hidden somewhere.

What makes you so sure that they were almost all Jewish..
If someone say most of them where not Jewish.. is that impossible?
How can you tell the religion of a collection of Bone remains?

I say we all kick back, open up a cold one and watch the fight as the Jews battle the arabs. Then we shall enjoy the end of the world as we know it.

The Jews would win hands down.

What makes you so sure that they were almost all Jewish..
If someone say most of them where not Jewish.. is that impossible?
How can you tell the religion of a collection of Bone remains?The Nazis documented most of whom they sent to the camps like good German bureaucrats and certainly didn't manage to destroy all of those.
And besides, I doubt they wrote "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" in the protocols of the Wannsee Conference if they didn't mean it.

The world would probably be a lot more peacful today if the Nais had been succsesful, and certainly a lot less annoying.

in the same sense that no one would ever get robbed if no one owned anything.

you're fucked up

hmm that word "considered"
All things found to be plausible are considered, but some are found to be more credible than others. Don't tell me that molecules doesnt' exist because the theory is widely considered among scientists. We know that the Holocaust did exist in a magnificant scale from records, so don't give me this "6 million is Hollyword" and then implying that the history of the Holocaust itself is inflated as a result.

...sites that argue that Hitler was a Jew, that he was intent on destroying the Christians in concentration camps, and that concentration camps were made to keep his fellow Jews safe from Allied bombs...LOL that reminds me of FOX news.. or The Onion..

I Think The German people felt resentment for the Jews.. and that the Patriots/Nationalists manipulated that to gain political power..

it became hate for the Jews.. and when the war started.. the Jews were targeted by the Germans.. But they were not the only victims.. and maybe they were not the biggest victims.

Don't tell me that molecules doesnt' exist because the theory is widely considered among scientists.Don't tell me the molecules are comiting genocide against the Palestinean.

BTW.. I will not tell you the Genocide did not happen.

It is not just the Jews on this forum who have a problem with your Holocaust denial OceanDrive2.

Correct. And denying the size of said Holocaust is usual total denial by the back-passage.

Don't tell me the molecules are comiting genocide against the Palestinean.
What's your point? Since when did Israel's policies when it comes to handling terrorism become a loudspeaker for all the Jews?

What's your point? My point is I will not tell you the Holocaust did not happen.

I believe that Hitler was power-hungry (an obvious fact), and that he used the Jews as scapegoats, (which has been done for hundreds, if not, thousands of years) as well as Slavs, communists, intellectuals (who would oppose his rule) etc. The German people needed something to direct their anger at, and Hitler provided, sending them down the path that would lead to their massive defeat and the start of the cold war (as well as the split of Germany into a democratic and socialist state) which would not end until 1989.

Correct. And denying the size of said Holocaust is usual total denial by the back-passage.I will accept you perceived "Size" (6M or 60Millions or whatever..) when you prove it.

LOL that reminds me of FOX news.. or The Onion..It's from your link to the Christian Party, actually...
I Think The German pople felt resentment for the Jews.. and that the Patriots/Nationalists manipulated that to gain political power..

it became hate for the Jews.. and when the war started.. the Jews were targeted by the Germans.. But they were not the only victims.. and maybe they were not the biggest victims.:rolleyes:
OD2, you lack any deeper knowledge of what things were like during the NS Regime's reign. The pursuit of Jews started well before the war.
The Nurnberg Race Laws said nothing about homosexuality or communism. They said things about Jews.
The signs held by SA thugs standing in front of shops said nothing about gypsies or blacks. They said things about Jews.
There were more stars of David patches than there were triangle patches found after the concentration camps were liberated.
Anyone claiming that Jews might not even have been the biggest group totally ignores everything that went on in the 3rd Reich.

My point is I will not tell you the Holocaust did not happen.
...because simply altering the truth instead of erasing it entirely is so much better:rolleyes:

My point is I will not tell you the Holocaust did not happen.
The problem is that if you were really only concerned about the numerical accuracy down to the hundredth decimal place, then you wouldn't have carried your denial all the way to here.

It is possible though.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,389491,00.html

That was a great article. She is a better person than I am.

I support Israel. I have a weak spot for Judaism. I beleive no one else should have control of that territory. Given the chance to live in peace I think much could be accomplished in Isreal.:)

...because simply altering the truth instead of erasing it entirely is so much better:rolleyes:

I think altering the truth makes it a falsity, therefore erasing the truth completely.

The pursuit of Jews started well before the war.well of course.. when the Patriots/Nationalists started their Hate propaganda.. obviously followed by racism, pursuit, discrimination, profiling ,Bullying. etc (before the shots were fired)..

I will accept you perceived "Size" (6M or 60Millions or whatever..) when you prove it.

But you're a waste of my time, energy etc. Where I have admin I usually let the mob at your type and when they revert to "thats what the Jews want you to think" as a stock answer, I go and delete their unnecessary behinds. You have nothing to contribute, nor can anything be gained (save some humour at your expense) by entertaining your rubbish as being worthy of discussion.

US should just keep quiet on these World issues. We're already in deep shit with ourselves now, with the climbing prices of gasoline. We should really stop being a Republican and start being a Democrat, which worries about ourselves first then other countries.

The US and its allies should all support Israel.

We have no inherent moral duty to do so, however, we put Israel there, and we cannot now back out on our decision, irregardless of whether it was a good one or not. Its perfectly understandable that the Palestinians oppose Israel, and here's a nice metaphor for you:

Imagine that another nation decided to take a piece of your country and populate it with a bunch of foreigners. Don't even think about the religious component to this. Can anyone seriously tell me that you'd expect your country to be fine with that? Maybe you, personally, wouldn't go to war over it, but you KNOW that, wherever you live, there'd be plenty of people who would.

By contrast, there's the issue of the land that Israel took in the war it fought shortly after its formation. This, Israel should certainly not have a right to. If the US supports Israel's claims to territory claimed militarily, it would appear to be an endorsement of the right of any country to territory that it claims in war. If the international community refuses to recognize the right to annex militarily occupied lands, war will be, at least in part, discouraged. Of course, such a decision demands that international organizations be prepared to enforce their stances with force, if need be.

US should just keep quiet on these World issues. We're already in deep shit with ourselves now, with the climbing prices of gasoline. We should really stop being a Republican and start being a Democrat, which worries about ourselves first then other countries.

sense when have democrats done that?

But you're a waste of my time, energy etc. Like I said there is Proof.. They have proof for a some of it.. Some hundreds of Thousands Bodies..

At one point in history.. Hollywood (the collective source of History for most Americans) was saying "There is no millions of bodies.. Because they were burned" but that theory has been somewhat abandoned.

At one point in history The Hollywood was saying "There is no millions of bodies.. Because they were burned" but that theory has been somewhat abandoned.They did, actually. If the only place you've heard it from was Schindler's List, you haven't been looking hard enough.

The US and its allies should all support Israel.

We have no inherent moral duty to do so, however, we put Israel there, and we cannot now back out on our decision, irregardless of whether it was a good one or not. Its perfectly understandable that the Palestinians oppose Israel, and here's a nice metaphor for you:

Imagine that another nation decided to take a piece of your country and populate it with a bunch of foreigners. Don't even think about the religious component to this. Can anyone seriously tell me that you'd expect your country to be fine with that? Maybe you, personally, wouldn't go to war over it, but you KNOW that, wherever you live, there'd be plenty of people who would.

By contrast, there's the issue of the land that Israel took in the war it fought shortly after its formation. This, Israel should certainly not have a right to. If the US supports Israel's claims to territory claimed militarily, it would appear to be an endorsement of the right of any country to territory that it claims in war. If the international community refuses to recognize the right to annex militarily occupied lands, war will be, at least in part, discouraged. Of course, such a decision demands that international organizations be prepared to enforce their stances with force, if need be.

You seem to have a clear understanding of the reality of the situation but yet your argument that we should continue to support Israel is entirely illogical. Using the argument that we can't back out of a bad decision; we should still be supporting Saddam Hussein, still be fighting Vietnam, still have slavery, and in general continue to make every mistake we have ever made, I suppose for the sake of appearing dutiful or some such non-sense. Our support of Israel is causing more harm than good; that is all that matters, everything else is secondary. We should cease all aid immediately.

...because simply altering the truth instead of erasing it entirely is so much betterActually what they say in LALA land (Hollywood) is "altering the truth is easier than erasing it entirely"

Actually what they say in LALA land (Hollywood) is "altering the truth is easier than instead of erasing it entirely"
Hold on, are you a Jim Searcy follower?

They did, actually. If the only place you've heard it from was Schindler's List, you haven't been looking hard enough.uhmm they did what?

And since when Hollywood movies have ever had anything to do with reality??

Hold on, are you a Jim Searcy follower?LOL.. Who is that?

uhmm they did what?

And since when Hollywood movies have ever had anything to do with reality??I've been to the crematory in Sachsenhausen. They burned the bodies. They even had special crews to shovel out the ash and carry the bodies in.
And just because Hollywood said its true doesn't mean it isn't ;)

LOL.. Who is that?Jim Searcy is a Christian nut-case convinced that Prince Charles is the Anti-Christ. He uses the term Lala-Land a lot in his ramblings.

Imagine that another nation decided to take a piece of your country and populate it with a bunch of foreigners. Don't even think about the religious component to this. Can anyone seriously tell me that you'd expect your country to be fine with that?Nope..I cant seriously tell you that

Like I said there is Proof.. They have proof for a some of it.. Some hundreds of Thousands Bodies..

At one point in history.. Hollywood (the collective source of History for most Americans) was saying "There is no millions of bodies.. Because they were burned" but that theory has been somewhat abandoned.

But I am not American. Nor do I give a crap where their souces come from. From what I've seen of your "sources", you wouldnt really want to go down that road with them.

Jim Searcy is a Christian nut-case convinced that Prince Charles is the Anti-Christ. He uses the term Lala-Land a lot in his ramblings.

I feel like finding this Jim guy and hitting him with a lead pipe for some reason.

And just because Hollywood said its true doesn't mean it isn't ;)Its physics..

It did take 1 litre of Gaz to Burn 1 body.

Garmany simply did not have 6 million litres to use on the Prisoners.. The 6( or 20 or whatever) million bodies had to be buried.

But I am not American. Nor do I give a crap where their souces come from. From what I've seen of your "sources", you wouldnt really want to go down that road with them.yep.. your sources would not want to go alone in the alley with my sources :p

Its physics..

It did take 1 litre of Gaz to Burn 1 body.

Garmany simply did not have 6 million litres to use on the Prisoners.. The 6( or 20 or whatever) million bodies had to be buried.What? You think they put them in ovens to use gasoline on them?
Germany is right up there with Australia in hard coal and lignite production btw...

I feel like finding this Jim guy and hitting him with a lead pipe for some reason.

Oddly enough I've had the same sensation, but it wasnt him I had in mind. Leads too heavy btw, you're best off with a length of 1/2 inch GB with a bit of lead in the end.

yep.. your sources would not want to go alone in the alley with my sources :pCourse not... Your sources just can't be trusted :p

What? You think they put them in ovens to use gasoline on them?
Germany is right up there with Australia in hard coal and lignite production btw...:rolleyes: Do you have any idea how long would it take to do it with Coal?

yep.. your sources would not want to go alone in the alley with my sources :p

Why? Do they want to offer them money to "roleplay" in some sordid right-wing Christian Nazi fantasy with shades of "Ilsa, she-wolf of the SS"?

Its physics..

It did take 1 litre of Gaz to Burn 1 body.

Garmany simply did not have 6 million litres to use on the Prisoners.. The 6( or 20 or whatever) million bodies had to be buried.

Didn't you hear? They vaporized the bodies with electricity in such a way as to leave no evidence and then destroyed all remenants of the machinery that allowed them to do it (and which are still not recreatable).

Course not... Your sources just can't be trusted :pLOL Nothing about Ilsa-she-wolf? :D :D :fluffle: :D

Didn't you hear? They vaporized the bodies with electricity in such a way as to leave no evidence and then destroyed all remenants of the machinery that allowed them to do it (and which are still not recreatable).ahh that really explains it all.

I feel like finding this Jim guy and hitting him with a lead pipe for some reason.LOL.. go for it.. :D

While I appreciate that the issue is one of territory, I don't personally understand the value of Jerusalem and current Israeli territories. The whole area is a testimony to religious failures throughout history - it was stolen from the various tribes by the Israelites, stolen from them by various other tribes and the Roman Empire, stolen from them by the arabs, from them by the Christians and back again, then taken by the polytheistic Ottoman empire, to the Christian Brits and back to Judaism again. I would have thought the area would be a place that those of a religious disposition would be ashamed of; not fighting over.

Surely Palestine could garner enough funds from other Islamic nations and buy the place back if they really wanted it?

Had we destroyed Hitler when he marched into the Rhine lands(something that was strictly forbidden in the Treaty of Versailles) than perhaps the Jewish population would be 6 million higher.

Had we destroyed Hitler when Austria became part of Germany(another illegal activity forbidden in the Treaty) than perhaps over 50 million people would be alive

and had we destroyed Hitler when he took Czechoslovakia, than I wouldn't be in this forum right now disagreeing with you that we should let Israel be destroyed by a bunch of Islam fundamentalist, who obviously do not comprehend the concept of PEACE

The Treaty of Versailles was just a vindictive Diktat.
Had the Allies at the end of the First World War not been so damningly harsh with the treaty, or been more harsh depending on which way you see it, Hitler would not have come to power and Germany certainly would either not have felt the need to or have been in no position to take military action, because of Hitler not being able to gain enough support or Germany being economically and militarily unable.

It is better to prevent the disease than cure it.

Jews were only one ethinc group Hitler and the Germans targeted during the Holocaust, yet I don't see a all-Gypsie state or all Slavic state, do I?

I can't speak for the Roma, but I think you'll find that:
Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Slovenia, Croatia, and Ukraine are *all* Slavic states, as is Russia.

That was a great article. She is a better person than I am.

I support Israel. I have a weak spot for Judaism. I beleive no one else should have control of that territory. Given the chance to live in peace I think much could be accomplished in Isreal.:)
Why should no one else have it even though it hasnt been Jewish land for 100's of years? Do you not care at all about arabs or are you just not informed about the issue?

Why should no one else have it even though it hasnt been Jewish land for 100's of years? Do you not care at all about arabs or are you just not informed about the issue?
I am officially recalling my previous statements that you are a puppet.