NationStates Jolt Archive

Does Islam teach salvation by works. I've heard it said before that Islam teaches you have two angels watching you your entire life. The one on your right records your good deads, the one on your left the bad. Basicly then what I heard is that if the bad deeds are outweighted by the good then they enter heaven (assuming they have the made the pledge that there is only one God and his prophet Mohammad in the first place). Is that actually the case because if so I can see the Islamic logic to what Hamass do. People keep telling me how much social charity work they do, but they still authorise suicide attack on Israel. So are they basicly believing that if they do more good than bad they will be saved?

(Note I am not saying that all Islam supports suicide bombing, just that there is an observable logic to Hamass's activity if Isalm teaches salvation by works)

Works, among other things. Acceptance of the oneness of God (shema/shahada), obedience to the Prophet(pbuh), and doing your best to live a good life are important, but as the Prophet Isaiah said, "Even your good deeds are as dirty rags before the Lord." Allah guides whom He wills and leads astray whom He wills. In the end, we do not know the hearts of men, so we cannot say who will be returning to Paradise and who will be cast into the Abyss.

Allah can judge things that we cannot see.

As for suicide bombing, both suicide and killing the innocent are great sins in Islam.

Is that actually the case because if so I can see the Islamic logic to what Hamass do. People keep telling me how much social charity work they do, but they still authorise suicide attack on Israel. So are they basicly believing that if they do more good than bad they will be saved?
Is it so difficult for you to comprehend that good and bad are things of perspective?

Hamas doesn't think suicide bombing Israelis is bad. They think they are doing the right thing by god and the world.

The short answer is no. It is my understanding (as I'm studying Islam in my history class right now) is that Allah does not view one's actions as cumulative, rather the "sum" of your good actions does not necessarily mitigate the "sum" of your bad ones. According to Islam, Allah judges His followers for every decision they make as well as the whole of one's character. Still, I doubt the suicide bombings and the killing of "dhimmi" ("People of the Book" i.e. Jews and Christians) could be outweighed by the social services Hamas provides.

Is it so difficult for you to comprehend that good and bad are things of perspective?

Hamas doesn't think suicide bombing Israelis is bad. They think they are doing the right thing by god and the world.

I dont believe they are. If Hamass were true Muslims they would know that the best way of standing up for their belief is to adhear to it. As far as I can see, killing innocent people is not adhearing to Islam.

Allah guides whom He wills and leads astray whom He wills.

So he deliberately gets people sent to hell? My image of Islam is getting worse by the day.

So he deliberately gets people sent to hell? My image of Islam is getting worse by the day.

Christianity says the same:

“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2Thessalonians 2:11-12).

So he deliberately gets people sent to hell? My image of Islam is getting worse by the day.

Nobody really gives a rat's ass about your image of Islam anyway, so ... *shrug*.

Nobody really gives a rat's ass about your image of Islam anyway, so ... *shrug*.

Sorry, it's just Allah leading me astray with the silly belief that it's wrong to rape 9 year old girls. I'm not to blame at all, you know. Don't worry, though; I'll pay for your god's actions in the end.

Christianity says the same:

“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2Thessalonians 2:11-12).

Good point.

I dont believe they are. If Hamass were true Muslims they would know that the best way of standing up for their belief is to adhear to it. As far as I can see, killing innocent people is not adhearing to Islam.

Nor is it adhering to Christianity, Judaism, or any religion I'm aware of. Doesn't stop any of them, so why single out the Muslims?

Sorry, it's just Allah leading me astray with the silly belief that it's wrong to rape 9 year old girls.

It is wrong to rape 9 year olds.

I showed you scholarly proof that Aisha was 16 and consenting. Your ignorance is your own problem. You're as bad as the finger-in-the-ears "la la la" Republicans. Perhaps you should just join them.

It is wrong to rape 9 year olds.

I showed you scholarly proof that Aisha was 16 and consenting. Your ignorance is your own problem. You're as bad as the finger-in-the-ears "la la la" Republicans. Perhaps you should just join them.

I have seen plenty of evidence stating she was only 9. Take a look at the wikipedia article in my link for starters.

I have seen plenty of evidence stating she was only 9. Take a look at the wikipedia article in my link for starters.

You've seen conjecture and wikipedia.

I said "scholarly". Learn the difference.

I showed you scholarly proof that Aisha was 16 and consenting.


That sounds fascinating. Can you show me too? I study Arabic at university, and with it I'm doing a paper in Islamic History, and in Islamic Religion. I'm yet to come across anything that says 'Aisha was any older than 6 when she was married to Muhammad, as for the consummation of the marriage, all I can find (that I'm prepared to trust) is vague references to her "coming of age".

Thanks

Nor is it adhering to Christianity, Judaism, or any religion I'm aware of. Doesn't stop any of them, so why single out the Muslims?

Becaus I was talking about Hamass

I said "scholarly". Learn the difference.

It's in the hadith.

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant, plenty of others do.

An entirely separate matter, but what is the position of Dhimmitude against atheists? Some argue that it can extend to include Christians and Jews as followers of the One God (something I don't think extremists will ever contend to), yet what about atheists and agnostic individuals? People seem to think Europe is predominantly Christian. Yet it is mostly secular. The USA may also go that way.

Christianity says the same:

“And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2Thessalonians 2:11-12).

Have you read the rest around that

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" Is the first verse in that chapter so we can see its talking about the end times. Secondly, the verse before that says "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved" In other words, the time in which they could have repented has gone and past. The reason that God sends the illusion (hence the quote "for this cause") is that the people who he diludes are the not saved. Those who refused to accept him. Its too late for them to accept, in much the same way it would be too late for a French colaberator to declare his alleigance to the French republic all of a sudden when the Allies invaded Normandy.

Have you read the rest around that

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" Is the first verse in that chapter so we can see its talking about the end times. Secondly, the verse before that says "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved" In other words, the time in which they could have repented has gone and past. The reason that God sends the illusion (hence the quote "for this cause") is that the people who he diludes are the not saved. Those who refused to accept him. Its too late for them to accept, in much the same way it would be too late for a French colaberator to declare his alleigance to the French republic all of a sudden when the Allies invaded Normandy.

I certainly have.

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

When he talks about the second coming he uses the future tense (in bold) and then he begins to use the present tense (underlined). From the line '10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing' it seems that he is refering to those who are perishing in the present rather than in the future, he predicts that the deceptions which are around now will increase in the future. In reference to the present deceptions he continues in the present tense: '11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness'.

So it seems that God is trying to trick us and will try even harder in the future.

Does Islam teach salvation by works. I've heard it said before that Islam teaches you have two angels watching you your entire life. The one on your right records your good deads, the one on your left the bad. Basicly then what I heard is that if the bad deeds are outweighted by the good then they enter heaven (assuming they have the made the pledge that there is only one God and his prophet Mohammad in the first place). Is that actually the case because if so I can see the Islamic logic to what Hamass do. People keep telling me how much social charity work they do, but they still authorise suicide attack on Israel. So are they basicly believing that if they do more good than bad they will be saved?

(Note I am not saying that all Islam supports suicide bombing, just that there is an observable logic to Hamass's activity if Isalm teaches salvation by works)

Also, dont forget, a good deed in Islam is weighted 10 times that of a bad deed. Meaning you can do 9 bad deeds and 1 good deed and still go to heaven.

I have seen plenty of evidence stating she was only 9. Take a look at the wikipedia article in my link for starters.

Since when did wikipedia become the ultimate source of knowledge? It has been shown over and over again that the information on wikipedia can be very wrong. They even showed on the news one day how bad their information can be. Anyone can go online and change things they want as they will.