NationStates Jolt Archive


For Gymoor - about global warming

Deep Kimchi
18-02-2006, 03:29
This is not my work, but I find it fascinating, and I did check the data and the references. You may check them as well - it took some time.

I now believe that global warming is not caused by CO2, but by urbanization. The idea is a much better fit, and explains the anomalies in a better fashion (in fact, the CO2 theories don't explain them in any rational fashion).

Yes, there is global warming. Yes, the glaciers are melting. But it's not the CO2 that is heating things up.

Let us consider issues of global warming in relation to land use. It is well known that changes in land use will cause changes in average ground temperature. Cities are hotter than the surrounding countryside – what is called the “urban heat island” effect. Croplands are warmer than forests, and so on.

A high percentage of weather stations that were out in the countryside 40 years ago are now surrounded by concrete and skyscrapers and asphalt and so on. Which makes them register warmer.

These facts are well known within the scientific community. In fact, you can Google “urban heat island” and see the EPA’s explanation of the effect. So, researchers take the raw temperature data from the stations in and around the cities and reduce them by some amount to compensate for the urban heat island effect.

This reduction is calculated in several ways, depending on who does it. But most algorithms are based on population size. The larger the population, the greater the reduction.

At first glance, this may appear to be a logical way to do it. But it probably isn’t. It was studied by Bohm a few years back. Vienna has had no increase in population since 1950, but it has more than doubled its energy use and increase living space substantially. The urban heat island effect has increased, but the calculated reduction is unchanged, because it only looks at population change.

Thus, the heating from cities is being underestimated.

It used to be assumed that urban heating was unimportant, because the urban heat island effect was only a fraction of total warming. The planet warmed about 0.3 degrees C in the last thirty years. Cities are typically assumed to have warmed by around 0.1 degrees C.

It is likely that these assumptions are wrong, as I have illustrated. There is a Chinese report that Shanghai warmed 1 deg C in the last twenty years alone (L. Chen, et al, 2003, “Characteristics of the heat island effect in Shanghai and its possible mechanism,” Advances in Atmospheric Sciences 20:991-1001). And Shanghai is not unique. Houston increased 0.8 degrees in the last twelve years (D.R. Streucher, “Satellite measured growth of the urban heat island of Houston, Texas,” Remote Sensing of Environment 85(2003)). Cities in South Korea are heating rapidly (Y. Choi, H.S. Jung, K.Y. Nam, and W.T. Kwon, “Adjusting the urban bias in the regional mean surface temperature series of South Korea, 1968-1999,” International Journal of Climatology 23 (2003); 577-91) Manchester, England is now 8 degrees warmer than the surrounding countryside. Even small towns are much hotter than
surrounding areas.

Anyway, the point is that the graphs you see are not raw data – they have already been adjusted with fudge factors that are inaccurate to compensate for urban heating. But probably not enough, based on multiple recent studies.

Looking at raw, unadjusted data from Pasadena, California from 1930 to 2000 shows a dramatic rise in temperature. The record from Berkeley, California shows an incomplete record for the same time period, but you can see a clear warming trend. One might say it was indisputable.

Over the same time period, we can look at data from Death Valley, NV, one of the hottest, driest places on Earth – and there is no change. You’re thinking, perhaps it’s an anomaly. But we can look at other places – McGill, NV or Guthrie, OK. These stations are from the Nevada desert and the Oklahoma plains. They show temperatures that are flat or declining. And not only rural areas. Boulder, Colorado is of interest, because the National Center for Atmospheric Research is located there. No change. Truman, Missouri (down 2.5 C). Greenville, SC (down 1.5 C). Ann Arbor, Michigan (down 1 C). If the globe is warming, these places have been left out.

So, you might say, let’s look at bigger cities. Charleston, SC. Yes, it’s warmer. So a bigger city gets warmer. What about New York? Yes, New York City is warmer. But many other parts of the state, from Oswego to Albany, have become colder since 1930.

You might ask, “where does this data come from?” It’s from the National Historical Climatology Network data set. It’s a government data set, maintained at Oak Ridge National Laboratories. http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/ushcn/ushcn.html

You then might ask to see the data from the rest of the world. This is, after all, a global phenomenon.

As you can see, many places in the US do not seem to have become warmer since 1930. You might accuse me of cherry-picking my data, and I might have to some degree – but researchers are constantly doing the same.

You might say that the results do not surprise you – that weather varies locally. It always has and it always will. You might ask why the data I looked at goes back to 1930 when there’s probably data going back further than that.

And I’ll tell you – it definitely makes a difference how far back you go. As an example, West Point, New York, from 1931 to 2000 is trending down. But if you select from 1900 to 2000 – the trend is up.

Now you’re saying “HA!”. You’re thinking that I was massaging the data. That I picked intervals of years that made it look a certain way. And I say Absolutely. But the trick only works because temperatures in many parts of the US were warmer in the 1930s than they are today.

So, you’ll say, let’s go back as far as we have records. In the case of West Point, we can go back to 1826. You might feel confident because it’s well known that a worldwide warming trend began in 1850. You’re thinking the data will reflect that.

And as it turns out, there has been no change in average temperature at West Point from 1826 to 2000. None.

And you’ll argue that that is only one record. One of many. One of thousands.

New York City – up 5 degrees F in 178 years (1822-2000).
Albany, NY - -0.5 degrees F in 180 years (1820-2000).

And once again, you’ll say it is local variations. But I’m wondering – how do these local variations fit into a theory of global warming? As I understand it, global warming is caused by an increase in the so-called greenhouse gases – such as carbon dioxide – that trap heat in the Earth’s atmosphere and prevent it from escaping into space.

So, according to the theory, the atmosphere itself gets warmer – just as it would inside a greenhouse. And these greenhouse gases affect the entire planet. And we know that carbon dioxide – the gas we all worry about – has increased the same amount everywhere in the world.

And its effect is presumably the same everywhere in the world – that’s why it’s called global warming.

But New York and Albany are only 140 miles apart. You can drive between them in a few hours. Their CO2 levels are identical. But one got a lot warmer and the other got colder. Is that evidence for global warming?

You’re still going to say that weather is local – but we are talking about climate, not weather. Climate is weather over a long time period. So I would agree with you if both locations got warmer, albeit by different amounts. But one got warmer and the other got colder – and West Point, which is midway between them – stayed the same.

I’ve read some theories of global warming – and some say that the global warming will have some places get warmer while others get colder. But as you think about it, does that make any sense to you? And you’ll say, “well, climate is a complex system…”

But going back to New York and Albany, the fact that these locations are so close, yet so different could lead you to wonder whether we’re really measuring something other than a global effect.

You would agree that in the last 180 years, New York has grown to over 9 million people, while Albany has not grown nearly as much.

And we know that the urban heat island effect makes cities hotter than the surrounding countryside.

And this urban heat island effect is a local effect, and according to proponents of the CO2 theory, unrelated to global warming.

So, tell me – how do you know that a dramatic increase in temperature in New York is caused by global warming, and not just from an excess of concrete and skyscrapers?

Because if cities like New York become larger and hotter than they were before, they will raise the average global temperature, will they not?

In which case, as cities expand all over the world, we might see an increase in average ground temperature simply because of urbanization. Without any CO2 at all.

And the mainstream scientists answer to this is that they have corrected for it – but as we demonstrated – by using a flawed correction.

If this were a lawsuit, we would want the evidence to be untainted – we wouldn’t want anyone to change the data. But in this case, the evidence is the raw temperature data. And it is tainted by the very scientists who claim global warming is a worldwide crisis caused by CO2. And while their adjustment is downward, studies indicate that it is not adjusted downward enough.

It’s a core issue – is global warming caused by urbanization or CO2?

A decent attorney would have no trouble tearing apart the tainted data.

One last thing to think about.

You’ve heard that CO2 levels have increased by an enormous percentage. You’ve seen graphs that look like Mount Everest. But here’s the reality.

CO2 levels have increased from 316 parts per million to 376 parts per million.

Sixty parts per million is the total increase. Expressed as a percentage, it looks huge. But that is deceptive, and most statisticians know it is deceptive.

That’s such a small change that it’s hard to imagine.

Take a football field. Imagine that those 100 yards are the Earth’s atmosphere. Most of it is nitrogen. So that is 78 yards. And most of what’s left is oxygen – which gets you to the 99 yard line. Most of what remains is argon. Now you’re 3.5 inches from the goal line. And how much of that is CO2? One inch. Now, how much has it increased over the last 50 years? 3/8ths of an inch. It’s a lot more CO2, but it’s a marginal change in our atmosphere. Yet you are supposed to believe that this tiny change has driven all of global warming.

Now. We know that New York City has gotten a lot hotter since 1815. And the population of New York was 120,000 in 1815. Now it’s nine million. The city has grown over 7500 percent. To say nothing of all those skyscrapers and concrete. Now I ask you – is it reasonable to believe that a city has grown hotter because of a tiny increase in CO2, or it is hotter because it is now vastly bigger?
Whereyouthinkyougoing
18-02-2006, 03:40
God. Now the polar icecaps are melting because of urban heat islands? Must be because there are just that many large urban areas in the vicinity...

What's the source of this well-informed scientific article anyway?
Deep Kimchi
18-02-2006, 03:42
God. Now the polar icecaps are melting because of urban heat islands? Must be because there are just that many large urban areas in the vicinity...

What's the source of this well-informed scientific article anyway?

Michael Crichton. I was dubious about his references and data, so I looked every one of them up.

It's solid. And well reasoned. I wonder why no one is addressing it.
Gymoor II The Return
18-02-2006, 03:45
Damn all those big cities in the Arctic circle!

Oh, wait...
Gymoor II The Return
18-02-2006, 03:47
Michael Crichton. I was dubious about his references and data, so I looked every one of them up.

It's solid. And well reasoned. I wonder why no one is addressing it.

It's funny because Dinosaurs cause global warming...
NERVUN
18-02-2006, 03:48
God. Now the polar icecaps are melting because of urban heat islands? Must be because there are just that many large urban areas in the vicinity...

What's the source of this well-informed scientific article anyway?
Don't forget the rise in ocean temp and the hole in the ozone layer, because, you know, we have such large cities underwater and floating in the air above the South Pole.

I also find it funny that the article picked out Death Valley, Nevada. The Nevada side of Death Valley National Park is a series of high mountain ranges.
Teh_pantless_hero
18-02-2006, 03:48
Michael Crichton. I was dubious about his references and data, so I looked every one of them up.

It's solid. And well reasoned. I wonder why no one is addressing it.
Because global warming doesn't just happen in cities in the US.

And all those damn big cities in the Antarctic and Arctic.
Greater londres
18-02-2006, 03:49
Ah, so this means that it's ok to buy that new SUV or neon light and provide a valuable boost to the economy! Great!
Deep Kimchi
18-02-2006, 03:50
Damn all those big cities in the Arctic circle!

Oh, wait...

I think you're missing the point.

Yes, there is global warming, but not from CO2.

It makes a lot more sense - the heat capacity of the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is substantially lower than the heat capacity of the total amount of artificial material that cities are composed of - largely because the intrinsic heat capacity of concrete, etc., is far larger than that of CO2.

Yes, the planet is getting warmer overall, but not in all areas. And it is not CO2.

It makes sense that glaciers in Europe are melting.

It makes sense that global trade winds would carry warmer air to the poles.

Think of the cities as hot rocks in a pot of water.
Gymoor II The Return
18-02-2006, 03:52
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=74

Here they dismember Crichton.

and here:

http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/fellows/sandalow20050128.htm

and here:

http://www.pewclimate.org/state_of_fear.cfm
Deep Kimchi
18-02-2006, 03:57
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=74

Here they dismember Crichton.

Not that I buy everything Crichton said, but I don't buy everything the scientists are saying anymore.

Nothing they have said proves it's CO2. While Crichton may not have proved that it is cities (per their dismemberment), they have nothing more than he has to prove it is CO2.
Teh_pantless_hero
18-02-2006, 03:59
It makes sense that glaciers in Europe are melting.

It makes sense that global trade winds would carry warmer air to the poles.

Think of the cities as hot rocks in a pot of water.
I won't pretend I read the entire thing, but I do believe I read something about how big cities are warming more than countrysides. If that statement was true, wouldn't countrysides warm as well? How did the hot air get from the cities to the polar ice caps? Did the big cities develop transporters?
New Eldara
18-02-2006, 04:01
You guys no global warming is also occuring on Mars and its polar ice caps are melting strange

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1660
Deep Kimchi
18-02-2006, 04:03
I won't pretend I read the entire thing, but I do believe I read something about how big cities are warming more than countrysides. If that statement was true, wouldn't countrysides warm as well? How did the hot air get from the cities to the polar ice caps? Did the big cities develop transporters?

For the same reason that some ocean currents are wamer than others.

Warm air moves, but is not thoroughly mixed. If it was all CO2, then the air would all be warmed uniformly. No mixing required, and the temperature increase would have been uniform everywhere.

If you're heating local areas, standing currents are going to pick up the heat and take it elsewhere - but there won't be absolute mixing.

I'm all for saying that there's global warming - and that there's human activity behind it - but I'm not buying that it's just CO2. No way.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
18-02-2006, 04:08
Michael Crichton. I was dubious about his references and data, so I looked every one of them up.

It's solid. And well reasoned. I wonder why no one is addressing it.
It's not solid and well-reasoned. It's a layperson's take of a problem he understands and knows nothing about.

I have forgotten most of what I ever learned about climate generation and global warming studying geography, but at least I'd know enough not to write something like that.

It's preposterous, plain and simple. Where does somebody even go off looking at a huge body of research the conclusions of which he doesn't agree with and then picking out various pieces of data to point at and say "See, this one doesn't seem to fit at all. Not that I'd know because I don't know anything about the subject except what I read in the paper, but it sure seems odd. Why, I guess they're all wrong then! I should go write that down!".

I don't doubt that his references and data are "solid" (he'd be really stupid to use them if they weren't). But, see, the problem is this:
A few months ago, I saw a climatic map of the US, with the projected temperatures and precipitation in the year 2050, IIRC, i.e. the projected effects of global warming. A large stretch of the Great Plains, comprising the areas where water is most scarce today, was projected as receiving significantly more rain than today. I was surprised, obviously. But that doesn't mean I went & wrote an amateurish piece about how all those scientists are wrong.

If you don't understand how some of the data you're seeing can possibly fit into the bigger picture, then go and educate yourself. When you can really claim to have understood everything about the topic and actually know what you're talking about, and the data still won't fit, then you can go and write your informed dissent.


Oh, and while we're at it: Care to explain to me how those urban heat islands melt the Antarctic ice shield again?
NERVUN
18-02-2006, 04:11
I'm all for saying that there's global warming - and that there's human activity behind it - but I'm not buying that it's just CO2. No way.
As various articles have mentioned, CO2 is but one of the greenhouse gases, it is not the whole of the problem. It is, however, the largest cause, and the one we can control better through our own actions.
Deep Kimchi
18-02-2006, 04:14
As various articles have mentioned, CO2 is but one of the greenhouse gases, it is not the whole of the problem. It is, however, the largest cause, and the one we can control better through our own actions.

Still don't buy it. There's not enough CO2 to make that much of a difference.

Better yet, we've had higher CO2 levels at other points in geological history - and life on Earth wasn't wiped out.

There's something else we're doing. Other things that we put into the air such as soot and sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides actually have a cooling effect.
Whereyouthinkyougoing
18-02-2006, 04:18
Wait a second - maybe I'm being thick, but was the OP an actual quote from "State of Fear"? The book apparently so aptly named Neo-Con thriller?
Deep Kimchi
18-02-2006, 04:20
Wait a second - maybe I'm being thick, but was the OP an actual quote from "State of Fear"? The book apparently so aptly named Neo-Con thriller?
Yes. He also repeats it in his speeches.

You can look up the references - they exist.

The argument may be flawed, but it raises questions for me.
Man in Black
18-02-2006, 04:24
Could it be that warmer cities AND co2 are both to blame?
Deep Kimchi
18-02-2006, 04:26
Could it be that warmer cities AND co2 are both to blame?
I could buy that.

I could also buy that when we generate energy, we're dumping waste heat into the environment.

Nuclear powerplants generate waste heat. The majority of energy used when you drive a car is waste heat. And so on.

Where does that waste heat go?

It stays right here.
Deep Kimchi
18-02-2006, 04:29
So well-researched science is always right? Peer reviewed efforts and repeated experiments should never be questioned?
The Rule of 48 was intended as a humorous reminder to scientists, and referred to the massive literature collected in the late 1940s and the 1950s concerning the human chromosome number.

For years it was stated that men had forty-eight chromosomes in their cells; there were pictures to prove it, and any number of careful studies. In 1953, a group of American researchers announced to the world that the human chromosome number was forty-six. Once more, there were pictures to prove it, and studies to confirm it. But these researchers also went back to reexamine the old pictures, and the old studies--and found only forty-six chromosomes not forty-eight.

If you see it in your university textbook, you should never question it?

"Usually the number of chromosomes is constant in a given species, although it may vary between different species even of the same genus. In man the chromosome number is forty-eight...." [Human Genetics and its Social Import, by S. J. Holmes (1936), pp. 8. The illustration above appears on p. 9.]

"... the number of chromosomes is in general constant for any given species. Thus in each cell of a human being there are 48 chromosomes (24 pairs)...." [Principles of Heredity, 3rd. ed., by Laurence R. Snyder (1946), p. 26.]

If every scientist believes it, shouldn't you trust your own eyes?

Someone as skeptical as Fass found out...

When and how did the discovery take place? Here's a first hand account from biologist, Maj Hultén, who was then an undergraduate student in Stockholm:

I was walking in the culvert linking the Institute to the Animal House, carrying my mouse cages. It was late at night the day before Christmas Eve, on December 23, 1955, when I suddenly heard the clapping (and echoing) sound of clogs behind me, and a heavy hand landed on my left shoulder. I got mighty afraid, but recognizing it to be the diminutive Chinese visiting scientist, Joe-Hin Tjio, I wondered what on earth this was all about. "I can see that you are equally kind to everybody around here. Would you like to come to my room? I have got something interesting to show you", he stuttered. "Yes, please", I found myself answering.

Peering down the microscope, situated on the bench to the right in Tjio's office cum lab, I was amazed to see the human chromosomes well spread out and separated from each other, and when Tjio demanded: "Count", I did so. My first comment was "You have lost two", but then in metaphase after metaphase there could be no doubt, the chromosome number was 46. It was a cliché to say that I can remember it as if it was yesterday, the stinging smell of the acetic orcein (making Tjio's broad thumbs bright red also when squashing the cells) blending together with that of Turkish coffee made by Tjio.

from "Numbers, bands and recombination of human chromosomes: Historical anecdotes from a Swedish student," by M. A. Hultén, in Cytogenetic and Genome Research 96: 14-19 (2002), pp. 15-16.

A student. Not a professor or established scientist. Not using a huge study. Not going through peer review.

Just looking.
NERVUN
18-02-2006, 04:31
I'm moving to Okinawa, Japan in 4 months. Konichiwa, bitches!!.
MiB, it's 'Konnichiwa', not 'Konichiwa'.
Straughn
18-02-2006, 05:31
Sure these might've come up, if not, they're here for argument.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/flooding-fears-as-glaciers-melt-faster/2006/02/17/1140151818900.html

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18184286%255E30417,00.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-glacier17feb17,0,7466790.story?coll=la-headlines-world


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1140130214172&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467
---
I think there's enough posters here who know what i have to say about this issue. And about a guy who thinks you can extract useful DNA from amber-encased insects from a WHILE back ... :rolleyes:

But it's good to argue i guess. Can't really fault International Poster of Mystery too much. I can, however, and do, question the integrity of Crichton for reasons i've delved into on other threads, so i'll leave it at that.
I also find suspect the timing on this thread ... oh well. N'joy!
Aggretia
18-02-2006, 06:46
I don't think anyone on this board is truly qualified to make a judgement about Global Warming one way or the other. Many people would like to think that it's those evil capitalists destroying our climate, many people would like to think it's just those evil communist scientists making up a problem. I would like to think the greenhouse effect causing global warming is bogus, but I really am not qualified to say either way, and I think the work of scientists on both sides of the matter is suspect enough that I can't trust them.

The fact of the matter is Global Warming isn't a problem, the ice caps aren't going to melt significantly(enough to cause us major trouble), we'll be able to handle any changes easily, and it would be much more costly to stop global warming or slow it than it would to simply react to its effects.
Straughn
18-02-2006, 06:54
The fact of the matter is Global Warming isn't a problem, the ice caps aren't going to melt significantly(enough to cause us major trouble), we'll be able to handle any changes easily, and it would be much more costly to stop global warming or slow it than it would to simply react to its effects.
It would stand that you YOURSELF don't understand the problem enough to be declaring the bolded text as fact. It would also stand that you haven't read the material SPECIFICALLY ON THIS THREAD. Thus, i'm inclined to treat your answers themselves as "bogus". People don't handle ANYTHING easily, as a general rule, and you know it. And no it will be more costly not to do anything about the problem - seeing as how it isn't off in the f*cking future, it's RIGHT NOW, and that means REACTING RIGHT NOW.
I happen to live in AK, where several measures of my daily life are reflections of scenarios that had been PREDICTED as CONSEQUENCES of the phenomenon we're talking about. Since you declare yourself oblivious to such, i would conclude your only source of information in this line is what you hear, not what you live. Again leading me to call your conclusions "bogus".
Punch up some of my posts in the Forum Archives if you doubt what i say.
Straughn
18-02-2006, 23:48
I figured a light summation of other global warming-related consequences from JUST THIS PAST WEEK might be in order, so i'll post a few things ...
These sorts of articles and issues are posted WEEKLY in Earthweek: A Diary of Our Planet:


Vietnam Drought

A severe drought affecting northern Vietnam has brought the stretch of the Red River that passes Hanoi to its lowest level in more than 100 years. It also threatens to wipe out more than 740,000 acres of rice this season. The country's Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Development advised rice growers in areas affected by water scarcity to turn to other crops. Over 45 percent of rice paddies in Vietnam's northern region are encountering water shortage, according to the ministry.
-
Canadian Seal Tragedy

Hundreds of baby seals were washed out to sea and drowned as a howling winter storm lashed a small island between Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island. Canadian fisheries officials believe that 75 percent of the estimated 3,000 grey seal pups born on the shores of Pictou Island perished during the tempest. Seals normally give birth on icebergs in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. But unusually warm weather this winter kept the ice from forming and forced the pregnant seal mothers to come to the island. Eyewitnesses say the seal pups were too young to be able to swim, and their mothers attempted to keep them afloat after being washed offshore. "But after the sixth or seventh wave, the pups didn't come up," said Jane MacDonald. Dozens of white-coated carcasses littered the shoreline following the storm.

Also, this is probably of note as well ...

La Nina Returns

Researchers from the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Climate Prediction Center announced that the ocean-cooling phenomenon known as La Nina developed across the tropical Pacific during the past two months. The reverse phase of the better-known El Nino ocean warming spread to cover a wide area between Indonesia and the coast of South America during the period. The researchers told a meteorological gathering in Atlanta that it's too early to tell how the cooler Pacific surface waters will affect spring and summer weather in the Northern Hemisphere. But they said La Nina often coincides with stronger and more numerous hurricanes, wet weather in the Pacific Northwest and dry conditions in the southern United States.
Deep Kimchi
19-02-2006, 00:01
The odd thing is that when I read what scientists who say global warming is caused by CO2, they all say that no matter what we do (even if we all stopped burning fossil fuels, all over the world, all at once, right now), the warming will continue for another 100 to 120 years - and they're not even sure about that.

The ice will melt, the weather will change, and things get worse. And 100 years from now, I won't even be around to worry about it. Heck, some government's have barely been around twice that amount of time (many less).

What I would like to hear from scientists is a solution. A workable one that takes effect in my lifetime (within at least the next 25 years).

I work for a consulting company, and I've found that when you are consulting as an expert on a topic, you can't just say, "you suck". The customer already knows it, and doesn't need it pointed out. What they want to hear, since they paid all that money, is a solution.

I don't hear any solutions other than "stop doing what we're doing" and "it will take over a hundred years to see an effect from stopping".

That's not acceptable. If CO2 really is the problem, then they need to design and build vast CO2 scrubbers that take the CO2 out of the atmosphere NOW.
Straughn
19-02-2006, 00:08
The odd thing is that when I read what scientists who say global warming is caused by CO2, they all say that no matter what we do (even if we all stopped burning fossil fuels, all over the world, all at once, right now), the warming will continue for another 100 to 120 years - and they're not even sure about that.

The ice will melt, the weather will change, and things get worse. And 100 years from now, I won't even be around to worry about it. Heck, some government's have barely been around twice that amount of time (many less).

What I would like to hear from scientists is a solution. A workable one that takes effect in my lifetime (within at least the next 25 years).

I work for a consulting company, and I've found that when you are consulting as an expert on a topic, you can't just say, "you suck". The customer already knows it, and doesn't need it pointed out. What they want to hear, since they paid all that money, is a solution.

I don't hear any solutions other than "stop doing what we're doing" and "it will take over a hundred years to see an effect from stopping".

That's not acceptable. If CO2 really is the problem, then they need to design and build vast CO2 scrubbers that take the CO2 out of the atmosphere NOW.
Believe it or not, IIRC, there are a few excellent ideas of CO2 sinks that are designed specifically for that (although that's only going to deal with part of it).
Someone else posted it here a while back, probably Gymoor.
That isn't the only issue here - consider where the biggest CO2 sinks are and what's being done to them for how much of a rate PER DAY (see: BRAZILIAN RAINFOREST)
For basic respiratory function, something that has been very clearly proven, it seems like a lot of people can't think straight about what to do and what not to do when it comes to sh*tting where you eat. *shakes head*
There a few other actionable theories as well, and i KNOW Gymoor and The Nazz as well as a few others and myself have posted about them before.
It's not an issue of unavailability, it's an issue of corporate involvement/change as well as personal involvement/change, i think. It does seem pretty Herculean a task, indeed, but doing nothing still isn't particularly acceptable.
Along the lines of people not liking what they hear about what they're doing wrong, you should've found already how little anyone likes that anywhere, and how few people are TRULY looking to do what could be construed as the right thing.
If i find more stuff in my schedule, you KNOW i'll post it (unless GMCMilitaryArms decides otherwise ....)


EDIT: Worth a gander as far as corporate/management cooperation:

http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm?fileName=040505a.xml

http://crops.confex.com/crops/2005am/techprogram/P4132.HTM

And along same lines:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov//Newsroom/MediaAlerts/2000/200011104246.html

http://www.ghgonline.org/co2sinkplants.htm

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=186935

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v361/n6412/abs/361520a0.html
Perkeleenmaa
19-02-2006, 03:45
:headbang:

Let's get this one thing clear

<big>Crichton is not trying to prove that cities cause global warming. Crichton is trying to disprove global warming.</big>

Crichton basically claims that urban heating causes measurement error interpreted as global warming. Nicely omitting the fact that oceans have been warming, data that urban heating cannot contaminate.
Gymoor II The Return
19-02-2006, 07:19
:headbang:

Let's get this one thing clear

<big>Crichton is not trying to prove that cities cause global warming. Crichton is trying to disprove global warming.</big>

Crichton basically claims that urban heating causes measurement error interpreted as global warming. Nicely omitting the fact that oceans have been warming, data that urban heating cannot contaminate.

Crichton even admits that he cherry pics data...but then he accuses scientists of doing the same thing, which is a lie. Scientists literally use thousands of locations to come up with the fact that the earth is warming. For some studies, they even exclude numbers derived from urban areas in order to test to see if the warming trend can be pinpointed to urban warming. Crichton doesn't care though.

Why doesn't he care? Because, as usual, bad science is his bread-and butter. He makes his living off of creating cool scientific-sounding FICTION.

http://www.csicop.org/doubtandabout/crichton/
Jacques Derrida
19-02-2006, 07:27
It was really cold today. I call bullshit.
Gymoor II The Return
19-02-2006, 07:46
It was really cold today. I call bullshit.

Michael Jordan had a bad game once...he must have been a crappy basketball player.

more criticism of Crichton: http://mediamatters.org/items/200412170002
Lacadaemon
19-02-2006, 08:08
So can we have nuclear power now?

Or is this still the same stop everything bullshit?

For the record, I would like the US to have 150% nuclear power capicity by 2015, so we can sell carbon free energy to canada.
Straughn
19-02-2006, 11:35
Michael Jordan had a bad game once...he must have been a crappy basketball player.

more criticism of Crichton: http://mediamatters.org/items/200412170002
Good answer. *nods*