NationStates Jolt Archive

So I open up the "opinions" section of my local newspaper at about 7 this morning (NOT my most coherent, aware, or functional hour, as many can attest) to find a column from Washington Post writer Richard Cohen. The title was "Do the math on algebra," and the content was appalling (and is here (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/opinion/13885755.htm), for your reading displeasure. No that's not my local paper, so it's under a different title, but I couldn't find mine online) The long and short of it is that this writer thinks algebra is useless and too hard for America's students, and shouldn't be required in schools. He says it doesn't teach anything essential, that it won't be used by most, and that the idea that algebra "teaches reasoning" is (I quote directly due to my added shock at seeing this actually printed) "a lie propagated by, among others, algebra teachers." This pissed me off. A lot. I'm a high school student, 17 years old. I want to go into Physics as a major, and right now I'm taking multivariable vector calc. I have yet to meet a student who simply couldn't do algebra if they were taught properly. This includes kids who smoke crack and are, by my estimation, at least three-quarters of the way to total mental incapacitation by now. Algebra is not insanely difficult, and seeing this kind of "it's just too hard to do math and science" attitude really bothers me. So, in my typical style, I fired back a letter to the editor far too long for the paper to actually publish. Here it is. I apologize in advance for the eye-bleedery.


Re: “Do the math on algebra” (Thursday): Richard Cohen apparently thinks that algebra is just too hard for America’s students. He says that “you will never need to know algebra.” Maybe the students of this country don’t need algebra. Unless they plan on going to college, where algebra (and often calculus) is required for graduation. Colleges require that a lot of math be taught because it’s necessary for most decent jobs. To do economics, you need algebra, and often calculus. Getting any kind of job in any high-tech field (where most of the new jobs are) is impossible without a lot of math. Really, any decent job except entertainment (and apparently writing for the Washington Post) requires some high-level mathematics. Everyone despairs about how students from China, or Korea, or France, or essentially any other industrial nation routinely beat the pants off of Americans students. Maybe a clue to why this crisis exists can be found in the fact that we now deem even basic algebra (a seventh or eighth-grade class at most middle schools) too hard for the majority of our students. I think the problem lies neither with the subject matter or the students, but with some of the teachers. If we perhaps paid teachers well enough that the occupation would be highly desirable, maybe we could get more talent. And maybe our students would “get” algebra.

I also found Cohen’s tirade about how algebra “doesn’t teach reasoning” and how writing is the “highest form of reasoning” particularly odious. The math classes I’ve taken (including algebra, trigonometry, and now third-semester calculus) have taught me quite a lot of problem-solving, reasoning, and critical-thinking skills. Any instruction I’ve received in writing has taught me how to write, and very little else. Oh, and as to Cohen’s tough talk about how the “math whizzes” at his high school “couldn’t write a readable English sentence” or read a map: what high school did you go too? All the kids I know who are good at math are also consistently good at other subjects. Being intelligent usually isn’t focused on one course. People who can think well are generally good at most things they do.

Cohen, you “suppose” algebra has its uses? I “suppose” being a good writer has its uses too, but I bet civilization (especially an advanced, technical civilization like ours) depends far more on high-level math than it does on good writing. The computer you used to write that article? Programmed by someone who knew algebra, designed by someone who knew algebra, calculus, and number theory, most likely. The car you drive? Impossible without engineers who knew some serious mathematics. Even the presses this newspaper was printed on would not exist without the contributions of people who could do math, and do it well. Algebra is far more useful that a whole host of other subjects, and for you to sit back and paint it as some sort of strange, obscure voodoo that has no practical uses is, frankly, moronic.




OK, your thoughts, General?

Dang, I'd love to see that in a paper.

That Cohen fellow's article was hilarious.

Dang, I'd love to see that in a paper.

See what?

What a typical, ignorant American - haven't you learnt ANYTHING from other cultures?

If you see something in a publication that you disagree with, you don't write a letter in response, you idiot, you simply riot and maybe burn down their premises.

Happy to help

What a typical, ignorant American - haven't you learnt ANYTHING from other cultures?

If you see something in a publication that you disagree with, you don't write a letter in response, you idiot, you simply riot and maybe burn down their premises.

Happy to help

I'd do that if he was local, unfortunately he works for the Washington Post, and I lack adequate funds for a plane ticket.
But I heartily appreciate your enthusiasm! :fluffle:

At least he didn't get his Masters for pooping a cob of corn. See a certain Awful comedy forum for all the NWS goodness.

So you incite more conveniently place algebra-entusiasts to riot, maybe promise them a hundred virgin math problems. Jeez, do you want me to wipe your bum for you too?

See what?

That letter, you said it was too long to publish.

That letter, you said it was too long to publish.
Ah. Well thank you very much, then.

Dang, I'd love to see that in a paper.
I have always thought that Cohen was an idiot and an ass.

He is a classic example of what "newsmen" and "editorial writers" have become.

Blah, he's just sore that he sucks at it. It's human nature to dislike things which we are not good at. I'd be agreeing with him if it was about foreign languages... I have trouble with those.

This is why America is falling behind in the world. Ignorant rednecks like this would rather everyone just "skip all that stupid stuff" and go straight to working at Jimbobs Tire and Recapping.

Oh, and as to Cohen’s tough talk about how the “math whizzes” at his high school “couldn’t write a readable English sentence” or read a map: what high school did you go too? All the kids I know who are good at math are also consistently good at other subjects. Being intelligent usually isn’t focused on one course. People who can think well are generally good at most things they do.
(emphasis mine)
Ironic that you used the wrong "to" while you were saying how kids who are good at math are also good at English. ;)

But seriously, good job on that letter. It is not that hard to learn algebra or geometry... I tutored kids in both of those subjects while I was in high school and I did a pretty good job (even if I do say so myself) at teaching it to them. They could totally learn it, they just needed a little extra help. Graduating high school without being able to do algebra is terrible and it's a good thing it's required. Math is a lot more important than most people seem to realize... Particularly those that "can't do it."

I just sighed and shook my head when I read his article. There are just so many things wrong with it that is hard to know where to begin (mainly the fact that he probably uses algebra a lot in his life without knowing it).

The funniest part I think was when he wrote the following:

Writing is the highest form of reasoning. This is a fact.

Anyone else see the irony here? [He is saying that writing is the highest form of reasoning... and yet is reasoning is just plain crazy]

This is why America is falling behind in the world. Ignorant rednecks like this would rather everyone just "skip all that stupid stuff" and go straight to working at Jimbobs Tire and Recapping.

Cohen is far, far from a redneck.

He's a card-carrying liberal "intellectual".

Cohen's usual writing is far better than that tripe.

The problem with algebra is that a lot of students I know who aren't math majors or are planning to go into the arts don't see the practical uses of algebra. I personally haven't used algebra knowingly since my senior year in high school 15 years (!) ago.

HOWEVER, my father made the same argument back when he was in high school. You know what? He ended up using algebra all the time in his profession. He was doing dosage calculations as a registered nurse until he retired three years ago at the age of 48.

The fact is you can go years without using algebra and it serve little to no purpose in everyday life. In fact, let's be honest, a lot of it's bullshit. Some of of it's useful, most of it you can safely forget without any problems. That's right, I said it, now I'm activating my duck-and-cover method.

(emphasis mine)
Ironic that you used the wrong "to" while you were saying how kids who are good at math are also good at English. ;)



I hang my head in the deepest of shame. :(
The real problem is that if the paper publishes it, that might be included...and some smartass will catch it. Damn. Thanks for seeing it though.

Cohen is far, far from a redneck.

He's a card-carrying liberal "intellectual".

Perhaps he says he is - but I don't hear Bill Clinton telling people to drop out of school because algebra sucks. Watch The Colbert Report. George Bush is the president who says "I can see why everyone thinks Algebra is hard." (display 2x=4)

Meh, maybe Pat Robertson will send Algebra a hurricane.

I frankly am rather upset at this assumption made by a man who CLEARLY has the mind of an ape, or less. I myself am a devoted fan of liberal arts, writing, and many other things not often assumed to be attributed to math. However, even I know that something so common as music is basic math! He's obviously stupid, or more over just ignorant. Algebra is simple, and as you say, if perhaps teachers were given deserved wages, then students such as this one could learn. Simply put, all states should be sure to make this algrebra and geometry to graduate policy passed!

The fact is you can go years without using algebra and it serve little to no purpose in everyday life. In fact, let's be honest, a lot of it's bullshit. Some of of it's useful, most of it you can safely forget without any problems. That's right, I said it, now I'm activating my duck-and-cover method.

Hell, with that logic why bother going to school at all? Everything they teach you is just supposed to make you a more intelligent human being and someone who can contribute to society. Who needs that?

Why don't they just teach us how to hunt and kill?

lol im sending this article to bill oreilly.

Perhaps he says he is - but I don't hear Bill Clinton telling people to drop out of school because algebra sucks. Watch The Colbert Report. George Bush is the president who says "I can see why everyone thinks Algebra is hard." (display 2x=4)

Meh, maybe Pat Robertson will send Algebra a hurricane.

It's not that he says he's liberal. It looks like you're not a regular reader of Cohen. He's way more liberal than Bill Clinton wished he was.

It's not that he says he's liberal. It looks like you're not a regular reader of Cohen. He's way more liberal than Bill Clinton wished he was.

I'm not a regular reader, I'll admit to that; I'm just saying that typically liberals encourage education outside of how to change a tire.

Well just because you think algebra is easy doesn't mean everyone else does. I am not good at math at all. I'm actually getting a D in it now while I try the best I can (and I don't smoke crack). I'm not a genius but I know I'm not stupid... But really, the guy's opinion has validity. For (one) example (out of many), students that major in the arts have no use for algebra.

Personally I don't see any benefit for myself learning advanced algebra and physics and such. It's just another way that people can call me stupid.

EDIT: When I'm talking about algebra, I'm talking about advanced algebra/trigonometry and stuff.. not stuff like 2x=4.

Well just because you think algebra is easy doesn't mean everyone else does. I am not good at math at all. I'm actually getting a D in it now while I try the best I can (and I don't smoke crack). I'm not a genius but I know I'm not stupid... But really, the guy's opinion has validity. For (one) example (out of many), students that major in the arts have no use for algebra.

Personally I don't see any benefit for myself learning advanced algebra and physics and such. It's just another way that people can call me stupid.

I think a basic level of it should be required. But getting "advanced" in it shouldn't. You should need to know the problem solving skills to start to work it, but being an expert, meh.

What I don't like is having to have a foreign language.

I'm an A student. Ok, A-B, mostly B, close enough. :p I'm going to have my entier year trashed because of a low grade in Spanish when i'm in the top 3% of everything else. I don't think THAT is fair; but i'm not bitching. I'm going to try to pass the class so I'm eligible for most colleges and be done with it.

Well just because you think algebra is easy doesn't mean everyone else does. I am not good at math at all. I'm actually getting a D in it now while I try the best I can (and I don't smoke crack). I'm not a genius but I know I'm not stupid... But really, the guy's opinion has validity. For (one) example (out of many), students that major in the arts have no use for algebra.

Personally I don't see any benefit for myself learning advanced algebra and physics and such. It's just another way that people can call me stupid.

What most people don't realize is that school isn't just about getting your degree and preparing you for your job. It is to make you an overall more intelligent and knowledgeable person.

By your logic, there is no need for foreign languages in schools as English is nearly a world language at this point (and is continuing to grow every day). History? Who needs that... it is in the past, how can it help us in our job? Science? How many people are actually going to become scientists when they grow up? [Etc...]

I'm not a regular reader, I'll admit to that; I'm just saying that typically liberals encourage education outside of how to change a tire.

Cohen is pretty smug about his own intelligence - and like most people, he believes that the way he lives is the only way to live, and the way he thinks is the only way to think.

That's why he comes off as such an ass.

I'm really to the point now where if I want to read an opinion, I'm better off reading various Internet forums, and questioning the posters rather than paying money for a half-educated ass to post his opinions in the editorial section.

Cohen is just another variant of the news ass - right up there with the other pundits who don't know very much but seem to have a lot to say.

Hey, if you want to read that, reading the NS General forum is free.

Well just because you think algebra is easy doesn't mean everyone else does. I am not good at math at all. I'm actually getting a D in it now while I try the best I can (and I don't smoke crack). I'm not a genius but I know I'm not stupid... But really, the guy's opinion has validity. For (one) example (out of many), students that major in the arts have no use for algebra.Sure, you don't have to learn it. People have no use for math. We've gotten along without it for quite a long time anyway...

I plan on perhaps going into physics or CS. I've found that, while I've had trouble with math on occasion, I've been able to figure it out easily enough if I have an adequate teacher. I just ask them and ask them about it until it clicks. Really, that's the only way to learn anything...

The fact is you can go years without using algebra and it serve little to no purpose in everyday life. In fact, let's be honest, a lot of it's bullshit. Some of of it's useful, most of it you can safely forget without any problems. That's right, I said it, now I'm activating my duck-and-cover method.

If you look at it like that...why do we need history??

By your logic, there is no need for foreign languages in schools as English is nearly a world language at this point (and is continuing to grow every day). History? Who needs that... it is in the past, how can it help us in our job? Science? How many people are actually going to become scientists when they grow up? [Etc...]

That's not my logic.. but blow it out of proportion if you want. Whatever. I'm just saying that advanced algebra stuff won't really serve a purpose for a guy like me in the long run. And I'm pretty sure theres an at least recognizable group of people like me.

What a typical, ignorant American - haven't you learnt ANYTHING from other cultures?
Not Algebra.

Oh, and as to Cohen’s tough talk about how the “math whizzes” at his high school “couldn’t write a readable English sentence” or read a map: what high school did you go too? All the kids I know who are good at math are also consistently good at other subjects. Being intelligent usually isn’t focused on one course. People who can think well are generally good at most things they do.

All of what you said makes sense and I agree with you, but this peice about intelligence being focused; I have a C in my algebra and biology classes, but I am in high As and advanced classes for my Global and English courses.

There are other people focused like this in my school, usualy with the split along the logical classes (math and science) and and worldly classes (language and history), but not always. I know of a couple people who are better than most humans should be at math in all it's forms, but have absolutly no idea why Fe is Iron or any such 'science-ish' things.

Also, I hate algebra, but also hate the fact than neither myself or my country are smart enough to figure it out...

That's not my logic.. but blow it out of proportion if you want. Whatever. I'm just saying that advanced algebra stuff won't really serve a purpose for a guy like me in the long run. And I'm pretty sure theres an at least recognizable group of people like me.

There is a recognizable group of people for each subject that won't need it later. That doesn't mean they shouldn't learn it. Why should I bother with history, spanish, chemistry or calculus if I am going to become a lawyer?

Hell, with that logic why bother going to school at all? Everything they teach you is just supposed to make you a more intelligent human being and someone who can contribute to society. Who needs that?

Why don't they just teach us how to hunt and kill?Woah, I never said don't teach maths. I said for most people algebra's useless.

If you look at it like that...why do we need history??
So we don't fuck up so bad next time

Woah, I never said don't teach maths. I said for most people algebra's useless.

Well, long-run you never know. But I think the problem-solving skills it teaches are valuable in any occupation. Thinking of innovative strategies for solving a math problem is good training for coming up with creative solutions to most any problem.

So we don't fuck up so bad next time
Either people forget what they learned in history class, or we aren't teaching the right stuff, because history doesn't seem to be making a difference. We're making the same mistakes over and over again, despite compulsory education over the last 100 years.

This guy can't do percentages. I mean, the average 15 year old can understand percentages. They're as easy as crap.

That explains a lot.

So Coher thinks he's better than "Shelly" because she couldn't locate the Sahara Desert, while he wasn't capable of doing algebra without "divine intervention..."
Then he says that he never uses algebra. When exactly was the last time Shelly had to know the location of the Sahara Desert?

Cohen is far, far from a redneck.

He's a card-carrying liberal "intellectual".

That's the scary part.

This guy can't do percentages. I mean, the average 15 year old can understand percentages. They're as easy as crap.

That explains a lot.

Let's see - is math useful?

Let's take percentages - no, let's take basic statistics...

Is it any wonder that reporters have printed stories with headlines such as "Half of British Schoolchildren Perform Below Average" (read that one today).

Shocking. I think that the reporters and pundits are the ones who performed below average in school.

That's the scary part.
Political affiliation is no guarantee of intelligence.

Well just because you think algebra is easy doesn't mean everyone else does. I am not good at math at all. I'm actually getting a D in it now while I try the best I can (and I don't smoke crack). I'm not a genius but I know I'm not stupid... But really, the guy's opinion has validity. For (one) example (out of many), students that major in the arts have no use for algebra.

Personally I don't see any benefit for myself learning advanced algebra and physics and such. It's just another way that people can call me stupid.

EDIT: When I'm talking about algebra, I'm talking about advanced algebra/trigonometry and stuff.. not stuff like 2x=4.

Sorry... I am in the arts (theatre, to be precise) and I use math ALL the time. I have done everything from figuring out "how do we build that set" to "how many tickets must we sell to break even". Math was not my strong subject in school, but I got through it, and use various bits of it all the time. I may not remember all the formulas, but I can look them up and use them as I need to. And I can figure out how much paint to buy to cover the backdrop based on its size, and what the cost of the lumber for an odd shaped platform is going to be. I can figure out what size truck I am going to need based on the number and sizes of the road cases that a show ships in. I can work out how much fabric to buy for the number of costumes we need to build in varying sizes.

Everybody should be able to do math. Consider shopping... two items of different sizes and prices... can you figure out which is the better bargain? How about if one of the items is concentrated and the other is not? What if you have coupons of differing value for each item based on the size you are purchasing?

Math IS important, and there is no excuse for anyone not to be able to handle the basics. Even if you have to pull out a calculator to do it (as I do), you should still understand what it is you are asking the calculator to do.

Let's see - is math useful?

Let's take percentages - no, let's take basic statistics...

Is it any wonder that reporters have printed stories with headlines such as "Half of British Schoolchildren Perform Below Average" (read that one today).

Shocking. I think that the reporters and pundits are the ones who performed below average in school.

LOL... I heard one... a politician promising that he would push for everyone to have an above average income if he were elected.

There is a recognizable group of people for each subject that won't need it later. That doesn't mean they shouldn't learn it. Why should I bother with history, spanish, chemistry or calculus if I am going to become a lawyer?

A lawyer, you say?

Spanish: The ability to speak with Spanish-speaking clients with limited English, incredibly useful in certain parts of the United States.

Chemistry: Meh, you're probably right, though chem can have uses outside of your job a little bit. I've had some creative fun with chemistry in my II roleplaying. Geology, too, for that matter (hey, as long as we're talking sciences in general...)

Calculus: Maybe not calc per se, but as a lawyer, you're gonna see lots and lots of statistics, including those beyond that which they teach in middle school.

History: It would be quite difficult to be a lawyer without a knowledge of history. Stare decisis, one of the most important judicial doctrines if not the most important today, depends on it. It's known among the common populace as "[legal] precedent."

A lawyer, you say?

Spanish: The ability to speak with Spanish-speaking clients with limited English, incredibly useful in certain parts of the United States.

Chemistry: Meh, you're probably right, though chem can have uses outside of your job a little bit. I've had some creative fun with chemistry in my II roleplaying. Geology, too, for that matter (hey, as long as we're talking sciences in general...)

Calculus: Maybe not calc per se, but as a lawyer, you're gonna see lots and lots of statistics, including those beyond that which they teach in middle school.

History: It would be quite difficult to be a lawyer without a knowledge of history. Stare decisis, one of the most important judicial doctrines if not the most important today, depends on it. It's known among the common populace as "[legal] precedent."

Spanish:But what if I am going to be practicing in a state with a tiny population of people who speak spanish? Why should I learn it then...

Chemistery: Exactly... outside my job. Same thing does with Algebra.

Calculus: Exactly, not calculus. I, however, am taking calculus, so don't make an argument about statistics.

History: There is a difference between knowing legal precedent and who the prime minister of England was in 1739.

Cohen is far, far from a redneck.

He's a card-carrying liberal "intellectual".
This is a perfect time to invoke my new made up law: spirit of teh pantless hero.

The fact is you can go years without using algebra and it serve little to no purpose in everyday life. In fact, let's be honest, a lot of it's bullshit. Some of of it's useful, most of it you can safely forget without any problems. That's right, I said it, now I'm activating my duck-and-cover method.
Algebra is not the mechanical activity of multiplying to numbers to obtain a result, but reducing a problem to a series of logical steps that you can follow to obtain a result. That's applicable in every area of life, always.

Even the more mathematical aspect comes useful when you need to calculate mortgages, know what those statistics that your local congressman is using actually mean, or if you'll have enough money left by the end of the month, or how best to invest it.

I think those are pretty good uses of everyday algebra.

i asked mr. Cohen about your thoughts and he had this to say:

"Drooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool"....lol his a freaking idiot (Cohen). If someone that dumb can write for the Washington Post, Maybe they'll let my dog do a column for them.

Spanish:But what if I am going to be practicing in a state with a tiny population of people who speak spanish? Why should I learn it then...
It has a tiny population now, plus there could be better opportunities to practice law that open in other areas or that a person who is fluent in Spanish will be much better positioned to take.

Chemistery: Exactly... outside my job. Same thing does with Algebra.
You probably won't need to know the melting point of Berilium, but it doesn't hurt to know that metals conduct electricity, or that iron rusts. Or being able to know why in basic terms.

Calculus: Exactly, not calculus. I, however, am taking calculus, so don't make an argument about statistics.
Yeah, calculus is hard to justify if you're leaning towards the arts or law. But it won't hurt either.

History: There is a difference between knowing legal precedent and who the prime minister of England was in 1739.
But it serves to know what was the environment when the legal precedent was set, what was going through the minds of those people.

In general, a person who only knows about their field, is a very dry, uninteresting, and boring person. Every professional benefits from knowing things from outside their field, and those areas can become a source of new ideas and inspiration.