NationStates Jolt Archive

From the religion of peace and love... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060217/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings)
By RIAZ KHAN, Associated Press Writer

16 minutes ago

PESHAWAR, Pakistan - A Pakistani cleric on Friday announced a $1 million bounty for killing a cartoonist who drew Prophet Muhammad, as thousands joined street rallies across the country and authorities arrested scores of protesters.

Police put another Islamist leader under house detention amid fears that the demonstrations held after Friday prayers would turn violent, after riots this week killed five people, but most protests passed off peacefully.

Denmark announced it had temporarily closed its embassy in Pakistan after a week of riots in which Western businesses were targeted. The country also advised against all travel to Pakistan and urged Danes still in the country to leave.

Denmark has already temporarily closed its embassies in Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Indonesia after anti-Danish protests and threats against staff.

Meanwhile, Pakistan recalled its ambassador to Denmark for "consultations" about the cartoons, Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said.

Fearing more riots, Pakistan deployed thousands of security forces in major cities as crowds took to the streets. About 7,000 staged a protest at Rawalpindi, 5,000 in the southwestern city of Quetta and about 5,000 in the southern city of Karachi.

Police arrested 125 protesters in the eastern city of Multan for violating a ban on rallies in Punjab province, and detained 70 others in Karachi.

In the northwestern city of Peshawar, where riots left two dead and scores injured on Wednesday, prayer leader Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi announced the bounty for killing a cartoonist to about 1,000 people outside the Mohabat Khan mosque, where worshippers burned a flag of Denmark and an effigy of the Danish prime minister.

He said the mosque and his religious school would give $25,000 and a car, while a local jewelers' association would give another $1 million. No representative of the association was available to confirm it had made the offer.

"This is a unanimous decision of by all imams (prayer leaders) of Islam that whoever insults the prophet deserves to be killed and whoever will take this insulting man to his end, will get this prize," Qureshi said.

Qureshi did not name any cartoonist in his announcement. He did not appear aware that 12 different people had drawn the pictures — considered blasphemous by Muslims.

A Danish newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, first printed the prophet pictures by 12 cartoonists in September. The newspaper has since apologized to Muslims for the cartoons, one of them showing Muhammad wearing a bomb-shaped turban with an ignited fuse. Other Western newspapers, mostly in Europe, have reprinted the pictures, asserting their news value and the right to freedom of expression.

Police in Punjab province were ordered to restrict the movement of all religious leaders who might address rallies and to round up religious activists "who could be any threat to law and order," a senior police official said in the provincial capital Lahore.

Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, chief of the radical group Jamaat al-Dawat, became the first religious leader detained by authorities since protests began in Pakistan early this month. He was due to make a speech in Faisalabad, about 75 miles away.

Intelligence officials have said scores of members of Jamaat al-Dawat and assorted militant groups joined protests in Lahore on Tuesday and had incited violence in a bid to undermine President Gen. Pervez Musharraf's government.

In Peshawar, police fired tear gas to disperse more than 1,000 people and arrested several people, said a witness, Khizar Hayat. Four effigies representing Danish, German, French and Norwegian leaders were hanged from lampposts.

In Islamabad, visiting former U.S. President Bill Clinton criticized the cartoons but said Muslims wasted an opportunity to build better ties with the West by holding violent protests.

"I can tell you most people in the United States deeply respect Islam ... and most people in Europe do," he said. Clinton was visiting to sign an agreement with Pakistan's government on an HIV- AIDS project by his charitable foundation.

Clerics at mosques across Pakistan still condemned the cartoons at prayers marking the Muslim sabbath on Friday.

"Give enough power to the Muslim countries and enable them to take revenge," said Qari Saeed Ullah, a prayer leader in Islamabad.

Frankly, I'd be disappointed if some nutjob from one of these countries didn't offer a reward. What surprised me was the government official in India who offered a more substantial reward.

I am more mad right now than ever before. When I used to hear people bashing Islam I'd always be the first to defend it, but they are behaving like god-damn spoiled children. I sincerely hope the poor cartoonist(s?) get the protection needed. If I had any police or military training I'd go over there and act as a bodyguard, because this is bloody ludicrous. The Muslims are behaving like spoiled children. Islam can bite me; it's untolerant, repressive, and controlling. For that matter, all religion can bite me - nothing good ever comes of it.

I am more mad right now than ever before. When I used to hear people bashing Islam I'd always be the first to defend it, but they are behaving like god-damn spoiled children. I sincerely hope the poor cartoonist(s?) get the protection needed. If I had any police or military training I'd go over there and act as a bodyguard, because this is bloody ludicrous. The Muslims are behaving like spoiled children. Islam can bite me; it's untolerant, repressive, and controlling. For that matter, all religion can bite me - nothing good ever comes of it.


Woah now. That comment was total uncalled for in my honest oppinion. What you are doing right here is baiting those people on NS who are Muslim and not acting like "spoiled children". I would calm down and drink down a few cold ones before you say something that you might regret.

Woah now. That comment was total uncalled for in my honest oppinion. What you are doing right here is baiting those people on NS who are Muslim and not acting like "spoiled children". I would calm down and drink down a few cold ones before you say something that you might regret.

Are you saying all of it was uncalled for, or some portions more than others?

I am more mad right now than ever before. When I used to hear people bashing Islam I'd always be the first to defend it, but they are behaving like god-damn spoiled children. I sincerely hope the poor cartoonist(s?) get the protection needed. If I had any police or military training I'd go over there and act as a bodyguard, because this is bloody ludicrous. The Muslims are behaving like spoiled children. Islam can bite me; it's untolerant, repressive, and controlling. For that matter, all religion can bite me - nothing good ever comes of it.


Nothing good ever comes of it (religion)?

hmmmm

Nothing good ever comes of it (religion)?

hmmmm

The vast majority of the evil that has happened in this world is, directly or indirectly, due to religion, whether it is genuine misguidedness, or abuse of it for political gain.

From the religion of peace and love... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060217/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings)

No ... not from the religion, from one idiot who very few people listen to.

Get it right.

The vast majority of the evil that has happened in this world is, directly or indirectly, due to religion, whether it is genuine misguidedness, or abuse of it for political gain.

Oh bullshit. The vast majority of the evil that has happend in the world is directly and indirectly caused by people. People who wish to extend their influence and power beyond their current boundaries and onto those of others. Religion is only one of many different excuses.

These rioters and Islam extremists make me sick. They're going to kill the cartoonists even though the government of Denmark, who had nothing to do with the publishing of said cartoons, apologized and the cartoonists themselves are probably deeply apologetic? Way to behave sensibly.:rolleyes:

The vast majority of the evil that has happened in this world is, directly or indirectly, due to religion, whether it is genuine misguidedness, or abuse of it for political gain.

Oh bullshit. The vast majority of the evil that has happend in the world is directly and indirectly caused by people. People who wish to extend their influence and power beyond their current boundaries and onto those of others. Religion is only one of many different excuses.

As you'll notice, I said in my post that people have used it as an excuse, and the people who followed them have sometimes been good, misguided fools.

The vast majority of the evil that has happened in this world is, directly or indirectly, due to religion, whether it is genuine misguidedness, or abuse of it for political gain.

i'd say we can blame much of the world's pain on sociopathy... which can't really be helped.

most people I know who are religious are fairly peaceful, kind, considerate, honest people.

No ... not from the religion, from one idiot who very few people listen to.

Get it right.

Few perhaps, but still too many.

Few perhaps, but still too many.

Sadly, yes.

i'd say we can blame much of the world's pain on sociopathy... which can't really be helped.

most people I know who are religious are fairly peaceful, kind, considerate, honest people.

Yes, which is fine if that's your thing, but the reason that religion has been used as a excuse for or to perpetrate so much harm is this:

Faithful people are dangerous because they willingly submit themself to something that is destructive; to be guided by intuition unsupported by reason or empirical evidence.

They are told, in no murky terms, in their bible, to be like sheep, ie. to do what they're told and follow unquestioningly. That, my friend, is why religion is harmful. All religions are the same, however. No one here should think that I'm just saying Islam or just Christianity is bad. I'm saying anything which encourages people not to question, and to have faith in that which cannot be seen or tested, is bad.

As you'll notice, I said in my post that people have used it as an excuse, and the people who followed them have sometimes been good, misguided fools.

That still doesn't excuse your remark. Neither Islam nor organized religion as a whole have had exclusively negative effects on society. On a general basis, religions promote good moral values. Many religions have large charity programs and have helped many people. This does not excuse crimes or atrocities commited in the name or religion, but by the same token, the crimes and atrocities commited in the name of religion do not overshadow the good works done in the name of religion.

This is why our governments should have expressed solidarity with the Danish cartoonists, rather than sickeningly pandering to muslims. Perhaps western governments could have done something like order billboards showing the cartoons to be put up all over the place? Or have Mohammed toilet paper manufactured? That could have helped to distract muslims from trying to attack the cartoonists.

As you'll notice, I said in my post that people have used it as an excuse, and the people who followed them have sometimes been good, misguided fools.

That may have been what you were thinking but it isn't what you said.

For that matter, all religion can bite me - nothing good ever comes of it.

The vast majority of the evil that has happened in this world is, directly or indirectly, due to religion, whether it is genuine misguidedness, or abuse of it for political gain.

You clearly express the opinion that it is religion that is the cause of evil and not the people that use it as an excuse.

They are told, in no murky terms, in their bible, to be like sheep, ie. to do what they're told and follow unquestioningly. That, my friend, is why religion is harmful.
Questioning your faith is a part of spiritual growth. Isn't a theologian just someone who questions their faith and studies in an attempt to find answers?

That still doesn't excuse your remark. Neither Islam nor organized religion as a whole have had exclusively negative effects on society. On a general basis, religions promote good moral values. Many religions have large charity programs and have helped many people. This does not excuse crimes or atrocities commited in the name or religion, but by the same token, the crimes and atrocities commited in the name of religion do not overshadow the good works done in the name of religion.
Yes, but I would argue that,
1.) You do NOT have to be part of a religious group to have moral values or be pcompassionate, and
2.) I believe that a good deed committed from a position of selflessness is worth far more than one required to avoid hell or to get 72 virgins in heaven.

That may have been what you were thinking but it isn't what you said.

Very well, maybe I should have been more clear. I would say that I at least included a portion of a clause regarding how religion can be used as a tool to manipulate those more trusting, but perhaps this is open to debate.

You clearly express the opinion that it is religion that is the cause of evil and not the people that use it as an excuse.

I believe this is true, for the most part, primarily due to the framework religion creates of being unquestioning and faithful. This is a large part of religion, and therefore if it is said that people abusing religion for power is a large part of the wrongs committed by religion, then logically religion (or at least a large portion of it) is indirectly responsible for the evil created by people wishing power.

when religion has gone so deep that people will kill whoever offends it, then it is obvious that it is not a religion but an tool for political power

Yes, which is fine if that's your thing, but the reason that religion has been used as a excuse for or to perpetrate so much harm is this:

Faithful people are dangerous because they willingly submit themself to something that is destructive; to be guided by intuition unsupported by reason or empirical evidence.

They are told, in no murky terms, in their bible, to be like sheep, ie. to do what they're told and follow unquestioningly. That, my friend, is why religion is harmful. All religions are the same, however. No one here should think that I'm just saying Islam or just Christianity is bad. I'm saying anything which encourages people not to question, and to have faith in that which cannot be seen or tested, is bad.

...which would make sense, if Jesus had said things like, "Kill the sinners and drink their blood!"

but he didn't

sociopathy!

hehe

Yes, but I would argue that,
1.) You do NOT have to be part of a religious group to have moral values or be pcompassionate, and
2.) I believe that a good deed committed from a position of selflessness is worth far more than one required to avoid hell or to get 72 virgins in heaven.
1) Correct, but it does help out
2) If you are merely trying to avoid Hell, religion is not for you. Religion (at least Christianity) is about attempting to develop a personal relationship with God.

...which would make sense, if Jesus had said things like, "Kill the sinners and drink their blood!"

but he didn't

sociopathy!

hehe
Correct, but it creates the framework for others to say such things, if they are clever.

1) Correct, but it does help out
2) If you are merely trying to avoid Hell, religion is not for you. Religion (at least Christianity) is about attempting to develop a personal relationship with God.
1.)How? everyone has morals, everyone has a conscience. The only thing that makes religion more effective at good deeds is for coercing people into doing them by providing previously unknown penalties for the failure to do so.
2.) Ah, but 'repent or burn, you sinner' is one of the most common tactics for converting, and the threat of hell is one of the most common ways of keeping people in Christianity. I would even say the majority of Christians are so because of the threat of hellfire and brimstone.

None of this is about religion.

It's about power and money.

Any blurry conflict that people blame religeon for, can easily be defined more clearly in socio-economic terms.

The West is in it's last hundred years of petroleum dependence and petroleum is all the Islamic world has to offer the world market.

The wealthiest and most powerful Islamic states want to capitalize on it now because they see their influence waning in the near future. Without oil money their tribal culture cannot survive and they are destined to return to killing each other over sand.

The attempt to stir up a religious war is a simple means to that end. Islam has the money, manpower and historic opportunity. The Saudi princes finance terror camps and yet study in American universities. They are not out to protect their faith nor their faithful, they just want to use their money to gain power.

If this was about cartoons, then when South Park made their prophet into a cartoon character, on a globally recognized show, we would have heard about it sooner.

Get real which has more influence, American entertainment or Dane newsprint?

when religion has gone so deep that people will kill whoever offends it, then it is obvious that it is not a religion but an tool for political power

Good thing Islam does not command anyone to do that.

perhaps some defender of free speech should put a 1 million dollar reward on the Imans head...after all turn around is fair play.

1.)How? everyone has morals, everyone has a conscience. The only thing that makes religion more effective at good deeds is for coercing people into doing them by providing previously unknown penalties for the failure to do so.
2.) Ah, but 'repent or burn, you sinner' is one of the most common tactics for converting, and the threat of hell is one of the most common ways of keeping people in Christianity. I would even say the majority of Christians are so because of the threat of hellfire and brimstone.
1) Not just penalties. If you truly believe in your faith, you are doing good for the glory of God.
2) Those who use this tactic are not truly representative of Christianity.

The big debate underlying all of this is: do the conditions you just described create a need for all of organized religion, or Islam, to "bite you", or justify the statement that "Nothing good ever comes from religion."?

2) Those who use this tactic are not truly representative of Christianity.

Really? they're representative of every Christian I've ever met (and I went to a Christian school for several years - they were so brainwashed and controlled it was downright scary.)

perhaps some defender of free speech should put a 1 million dollar reward on the Imans head...after all turn around is fair play.

Wish I had a million, and I would. Of course, then someone would lay one on me, and on the cycle goes...

Much as I've enjoyed this debate, it's time for me to go home. I may return to respond later tonight, but no guarantees.

From the religion of peace and love... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060217/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings)

Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, chief of the radical group Jamaat al-Dawat, became the first religious leader detained by authorities since protests began in Pakistan early this month. He was due to make a speech in Faisalabad, about 75 miles away.


Interesting to note that the Musharraf govt can arrest Prof Hafiz Moh. Saeed (Chief of the terrorist organization Lashkar-e-Taiba (http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/jandk/terrorist_outfits/lashkar_e_toiba.htm) ) over this but not when his organization carried out countless terrorist attacks in Kashmir and high profile attacks on the Indian parliament, Akshardham temple, the Red Fort etc etc.

Really? they're representative of every Christian I've ever met (and I went to a Christian school for several years - they were so brainwashed and controlled it was downright scary.)
You didnt answer my question.

Luporum puts 10$ bounty on Imam's head

Somehow I think mine will be answered first.

You didnt answer my question.
Yeah, well, you reported me to moderation unnecessarily. Forgive me if I'm less than enthusiastic about talking to you further.

From the religion of peace and love... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060217/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings)

But it's not a Christian Hivemind when Pat Robertsen calls for Hugo Chavez to be assassinated or says God gave Ariel Sharon cancer.

I forgot the Muslims are Borg.

:rolleyes: