NationStates Jolt Archive

As far as the inhouse fighting in the Judeo-Christian world over homosexuality, gay marriage, and such; in that realm we're split down the middle between Nature vs. Nurture. We ultimately are divided over whether they are born that way or not.

As far as our fighting goes in the Judeo-Christian world, it doesn't matter which it is.

When God put us on this planet, we were given power and dominion over nature. Including ourselves. We are to become masters of our own bodies and passions, not their slaves.

If they're born with it, then they are supposed to reign it in, and control it- be the Master of themselves.

If it was learned, then they are to self-discipline themselves and over come it.

We are to be the master. We should not be subject. WE GOT THE POWER! Not POWER HAS US.

The Christian community should not be divided over this. It is clear doctrine that permeates all levels and sects of Judaism and Christianity.

We are the master of our fates, not the servant of circumstance.

It's nature because it's not like people are meant to be heterosexual and turn homosexual because of a defect. People aren't meant to be in any way. People are in certain ways and because certain ways are more effective at producing offspring those allels will stay by the laws of evolution and are more common.

We have no purpose. The laws of physics dictate how the universe progresses. It's ultimate goal is not life or scientient self-awareness. It's all just happening without a reason.

This thread isn't for the purpose of arguing whether it is nature, or nurture. It is for the purpose of stating that it doesn't matter because, either way, as far as Christianity goes, we are to become self-disciplined and master our passions and reign in any impure thoughts, feelings, and impulses. Regardless of whether it is learned or inherent.

What's to argue then if you say your statement cannot be false?

One can easily argue that adultery shouldn't be a sin since sexual lust is an innate genetical trait. I don't see the reason for the controversy, if you're Christian then God knows best and you should do what he says, and I believe he does say in that you shouldn't be gay.

Note, however, that I'm not a Christian.

In response to TEH SPOCK

Because even when you're right, there are always people to say you're wrong. They're always there, ready to pounce on you and tear you to pieces;)

And I like getting into bashing matches anyway:gundge: :D

Solarea:

I've just never understood Christians and Jews who support it, when their stance is contrary to their beliefs, and if it's not, then they really don't espouse Judaism or Christianity, at least, not in whole.

We are the master of our fates, not the servant of circumstance.
Its a choice in your opinion then?

Yes, and Yes.

I don't believe you're born gay.

However, in the chance I'm wrong, I still believe they have a choice whether to give in or not.

If they are born that way, then it is still their responsibility to restrain themselves, and master themselves.

Even though they were born with it, they still choose their course of action.

As far as the inhouse fighting in the Judeo-Christian world over homosexuality, gay marriage, and such; in that realm we're split down the middle between Nature vs. Nurture. We ultimately are divided over whether they are born that way or not.

As far as our fighting goes in the Judeo-Christian world, it doesn't matter which it is.

When God put us on this planet, we were given power and dominion over nature. Including ourselves. We are to become masters of our own bodies and passions, not their slaves.

If they're born with it, then they are supposed to reign it in, and control it- be the Master of themselves.

If it was learned, then they are to self-discipline themselves and over come it.

We are to be the master. We should not be subject. WE GOT THE POWER! Not POWER HAS US.

The Christian community should not be divided over this. It is clear doctrine that permeates all levels and sects of Judaism and Christianity.

We are the master of our fates, not the servant of circumstance.

you are absolutely right.

it does not matter if its nature, nurture or just free choice

there is NOTHING WRONG WITH HOMOSEXUALITY.

its no one else's business who you are attracted to, or have sex with, or marry. (well except for the object of your desire, it IS his/her business) and it matters not one bit WHY you have these feelings.

If they are born that way, then it is still their responsibility to restrain themselves, and master themselves.
That's funny, that's what the Vatican says! :p
Are you Catholic perchance?

Yes, and Yes.

I don't believe you're born gay.

However, in the chance I'm wrong, I still believe they have a choice whether to give in or not.

If they are born that way, then it is still their responsibility to restrain themselves, and master themselves.
A: Try to be gay, you'll see it's impossible. You can't turn yourself gay.
B: You don't give in to anyting.
C: Why would they restrain themselves exactly? Because someone with a beard in the clouds want's it that way but is too lazy to make people that way that they can't be gay?
D: Wicca is the all time foolsome invention.
E: Your theory is a good runner up though.

I'm not Catholic. Some don't even believe I'm Christian, even though I am.

We're usually called "Mormons" or "LDS" and I am a member of that faith.

If they are born that way, then it is still their responsibility to restrain themselves, and master themselves.

Even though they were born with it, they still choose their course of action.
Why? What is particularly wrong with homosexuality? I can see why we should apply the self-control doctrine to murder, paedophilia, heavy metal, etc. ... but why homosexuality? How is that particularly "wrong"?

"We're usually called "Mormons" or "LDS" and I am a member of that faith."

Isn't that: 'And then Jesus came to America!'?

Am I arguing with Jews or Christians? Or other?

If you guys are Christians arguing for homosexuality, you're up in the night.

If you're other, then I see where you're coming from.


And, yes, we believe Jesus came to the Americas.

I'm not Catholic. Some don't even believe I'm Christian, even though I am.

We're usually called "Mormons" or "LDS" and I am a member of that faith.
That's cool.

Anyhow, since would have missed your response had this thread been bigger (I'm a skimmer), there's this button, in the right hand corner of every post, please use it! Its called "quote". Thanks. :)

As far as the inhouse fighting in the Judeo-Christian world over homosexuality, gay marriage, and such; in that realm we're split down the middle between Nature vs. Nurture. We ultimately are divided over whether they are born that way or not.

As far as our fighting goes in the Judeo-Christian world, it doesn't matter which it is.

When God put us on this planet, we were given power and dominion over nature. Including ourselves. We are to become masters of our own bodies and passions, not their slaves.

If they're born with it, then they are supposed to reign it in, and control it- be the Master of themselves.

If it was learned, then they are to self-discipline themselves and over come it.

We are to be the master. We should not be subject. WE GOT THE POWER! Not POWER HAS US.

The Christian community should not be divided over this. It is clear doctrine that permeates all levels and sects of Judaism and Christianity.

We are the master of our fates, not the servant of circumstance.

Well, see, here's the thing:

People who are intelligent, confident, well-adjusted, and honorable don't give a flying fuck if a pair of consenting same-sex adults want to get jiggy with each other.

However, there are a lot of ignorant, self-loathing, superstitious, and generally disgusting humanoids out there. For those people, control of other people's genitals is extremely important. Particularly for the subclass of insecure male humanoids who fear and hate anything that threatens male gender dominion (such as men taking a "female" role in sex via homosexual penetrative sex acts).

There are many people who have lousy sex lives, who hate their bodies, who subscribe to repressive and bizarre sex roles, or who simply have been taught to be afraid of sex parts and sex acts. Or all of the above. For these individuals, homosexuality is terrifying and threatening.

Why? What is particularly wrong with homosexuality? I can see why we should apply the self-control doctrine to murder, paedophilia, heavy metal, etc. ... but why homosexuality? How is that particularly "wrong"?


It stems down to God says it's wrong. Seems lame to those who don't belive in God, or aren't Christian, but that's what we believe.

He states it is unnatural affection (unnatural in the sense it's not normal).

He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah over this.

Am I arguing with Jews or Christians? Or other?

If you guys are Christians arguing for homosexuality, you're up in the night.

If you're other, then I see where you're coming from.
Is your world really only so divided? Does it allow no space for the atheists and agnostics that populate NS General so freely, of which I am one? It's actually a bit sad (and no, you can't claim our sovereignty over the "other" option).

And, yes, we believe Jesus came to the Americas.What exactly concluded you to believe that?

Is your world really only so divided? Does it allow no space for the atheists and agnostics that populate NS General so freely, of which I am one? It's actually a bit sad (and no, you can't claim our sovereignty over the "other" option).


No. But when Christians are divided on this, I don't know where they're getting their support, as far a faith is concerned.

Other religions or beliefs don't have the same restrictions, so it's easy to see why they would support homosexuality.

I'm sorry if I have offended in lumping all other religions (Hinduism, Bhuddhism, etc.) under "other".

What exactly concluded you to believe that?

The fact that our scriptures called "The Book of Mormon" says so, and I believe it to be true and of God.

If they are born that way, then it is still their responsibility to restrain themselves, and master themselves.

No, thank you. I think I'll continue having mind blowing gay sex.

It stems down to God says it's wrong. Seems lame to those who don't belive in God, or aren't Christian, but that's what we believe.

He states it is unnatural affection (unnatural in the sense it's not normal).

He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah over this.
So things that aren't normal are evil... I see. Why don't we kill off all humans then? After all, while most animals cannot reason, humans can, making them "not normal". Likewise, why don't we blow up Earth? Most planets are incapable of supporting life in this form, so Earth must not be normal...

Besides, if you believe in God, who are we to decide what God has and has not said? ;)

No, thank you. I think I'll continue having mind blowing gay sex.

You do that... but don't tell me it's right or okay...:headbang:

The fact that our scriptures called "The Book of Mormon" says so, and I believe it to be true and of God.

The Book of Mormon is incompatible with scientific evidence. Native Americans have no Hebrew genes, as the book claims. (http://go.fark.com/cgi/fark/go.pl?IDLink=1916177&location=http%3A%2F%2Fktla.trb.com%2Fnews%2Fla-me-mormon16feb16%2C0%2C680332.story%3Fcoll%3Dktla-news-1)

It's so much fun when a religion makes a falsifiable claim, and then when it is falsified, the religion is rendered null and void.

The fact that our scriptures called "The Book of Mormon" says so, and I believe it to be true and of God.May I ask your IQ, just for statistical purposes of course.

Fass: Where, when and how?

Other religions or beliefs don't have the same restrictions, so it's easy to see why they would support homosexuality.
That's just the thing though... a lot of other religions and beliefs do have similar restrictions. At least, most of the monotheistic religions and beliefs. Others tend not to care....

May I ask your IQ, just for statistical purposes of course.

Fass: Where, when and how?

About 135.

You do that... but don't tell me it's right or okay...:headbang:

Oh, it's very right and very OK. It harms no one (unless they want to be harmed, which can be great as well), and I don't particularly care what a religion that believes in magical underwear says.

The Book of Mormon is incompatible with scientific evidence. Native Americans have no Hebrew genes, as the book claims. (http://go.fark.com/cgi/fark/go.pl?IDLink=1916177&location=http%3A%2F%2Fktla.trb.com%2Fnews%2Fla-me-mormon16feb16%2C0%2C680332.story%3Fcoll%3Dktla-news-1)

It's so much fun when a religion makes a falsifiable claim, and then when it is falsified, the religion is rendered null and void.No they aren't science prooved by carbondating that that turein cloth thing was woven around 1300 but that was off course so because the ressurrection of Jesus gave so much magical radiation that the carbonisotopes were 'youngered'. Ask the christians, they know it all.

It's so much fun when a religion makes a falsifiable claim, and then when it is falsified, the religion is rendered null and void.
Or as somebody or other once said:

"Religions are believed in only when they cannot be verified. When a religion's claims can be falsified, it dies. The study of dead religions is called science."

So things that aren't normal are evil... I see. Why don't we kill off all humans then? After all, while most animals cannot reason, humans can, making them "not normal". Likewise, why don't we blow up Earth? Most planets are incapable of supporting life in this form, so Earth must not be normal...

Besides, if you believe in God, who are we to decide what God has and has not said? ;)

We don't have to decipher what God says, for He has said it in His scriptures. He's said it himself. Pretty good source on His opinion would be Him, wouldn't it?

Fass: Where, when and how?

Oh, however, whenever and wherever I feel.

Oh, it's very right and very OK. It harms no one (unless they want to be harmed, which can be great as well), and I don't particularly care what a religion that believes in magical underwear says.


Mutual-

I don't care what the gay guy thinks.:cool:

Oh, it's very right and very OK. It harms no one (unless they want to be harmed, which can be great as well), and I don't particularly care what a religion that believes in magical underwear says.
Spoken straight from the source. *claps*

We don't have to decipher what God says, for He has said it in His scriptures. He's said it himself. Pretty good source on His opinion would be Him, wouldn't it?
So did God write the Scriptures? Seriously, when would he have time to do that between managing the universe and interfering in everything else? It's far more likely that people wrote them, and people have their own biases. So because the writer of the Scriptures was homophobic, all Christians have remained so as well since the beginning of time (more or less). Because of course you've taken it upon yourselves to be exactly like "God", thus committing a sin and violating your religion... ^v^

*leaves you to try to make sense of that*

Oh, however, whenever and wherever I feel.Kinky...

We don't have to decipher what God says, for He has said it in His scriptures. He's said it himself. Pretty good source on His opinion would be Him, wouldn't it?

Again, the Book of Mormon is wrong. (http://ktla.trb.com/news/la-me-mormon16feb16,0,680332.story?coll=ktla-news-1)

No they aren't science prooved by carbondating that that turein cloth thing was woven around 1300 but that was off course so because the ressurrection of Jesus gave so much magical radiation that the carbonisotopes were 'youngered'. Ask the christians, they know it all.

The Shroud of Turin is a hoax. If it's not, it's certainly not Jesus'.

Kinky...

Umm, if that's kinky, then you don't know kinky.

Umm, if that's kinky, then you don't know kinky.
Agreed. Kinkiness extends from 'bondage' and feathers to violent floggings, household appliances, electricity, sodium hydroxide, and stuff I probably shouldn't mention on a PG-13 forum (as though anyone even pays attention to that limit anymore).

Here's good link for you Naiman: link (http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/drlaura.htm)

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Any thoughts?

Spoken straight from the source. *claps*


So did God write the Scriptures? Seriously, when would he have time to do that between managing the universe and interfering in everything else? It's far more likely that people wrote them, and people have their own biases. So because the writer of the Scriptures was homophobic, all Christians have remained so as well since the beginning of time (more or less). Because of course you've taken it upon yourselves to be exactly like "God", thus committing a sin and violating your religion... ^v^

*leaves you to try to make sense of that*


Have you ever personally asked the Big Man himself. I have. It's called prayer. A very real thing. It also takes faith, which is NOT blind acceptance. I've never blindly accepted anything in my life. One thing I can't stand is being told to accept it without knowing of myself. I've done my own soul-searching, I've done my homework, and I know of myself the truth. That is not something anyone can take away from me. So don't try.

Umm, if that's kinky, then you don't know kinky.Umm, if that's not sarcasm, then you don't know sarcasm.

It stems down to God says it's wrong. Seems lame to those who don't belive in God, or aren't Christian, but that's what we believe.

He states it is unnatural affection (unnatural in the sense it's not normal).

He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah over this.

Ahh no!

S and G were destroyed for many things rather then just the fact there were icky gays there.....

Oh, it's very right and very OK. It harms no one (unless they want to be harmed, which can be great as well), and I don't particularly care what a religion that believes in magical underwear says.
That's the best loophole! First, its sexual harassment, or even rape, until they like it! ;)
Twas a joke. Nobody take this seriously.

Here's good link for you Naiman: link (http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/drlaura.htm)



Any thoughts?

I know not the meaning of all things, for faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of all things. But I know that God loves His children.

Honestly, I didn't understand half of what was up there. Let me go (re)read those scriptures for myself and I'll get back to you.

I'm no Baptist. I don't have the Bible memorized backwards and frontwards.

Have you ever personally asked the Big Man himself. I have. It's called prayer. A very real thing. It also takes faith, which is NOT blind acceptance. I've never blindly accepted anything in my life. One thing I can't stand is being told to accept it without knowing of myself. I've done my own soul-searching, I've done my homework, and I know of myself the truth. That is not something anyone can take away from me. So don't try.
So God actually talked to you? Ummm... shouldn't you go see your psychiatrist? *backs away slowly* ;)

Ahh no!

S and G were destroyed for many things rather then just the fact there were icky gays there.....

Uh-hu, sure. What? Give scripture reference too please, so I can check your sources.

Uh-hu, sure. What? Give scripture reference too please, so I can check your sources.

The sin of Sodom was inhospitality. I'm an atheist, and even I know that. Come now, are you a puppet troll or something?

To try to classify people as being strictly gay or straight I think if faulty to begin with. I agree with the Kinsey Report. I think that we all have a number between 1 and 6 describing our sexuality. 1 being completely exclusive to the opposite sex and 6 being completely exclusive to the same sex. I dont think that sexuality is easily defined. I do believe people are born "gay" because their is more biological evidence to support that theory than the other. It has been determined that in months 2 and 5 of the pregnancy if a baby is exposed to a large amount of testosterone or estrogen they tend to be "gay".

So God actually talked to you? Ummm... shouldn't you go see your psychiatrist? *backs away slowly* ;)

I'm not crazy, and I'm not hearing those "voices" in my head.

That's not how God communicates.

"For I will tell you in your hearts and in your minds, your thoughts and feelings." He answers throught primarily thoughts and feelings. It's called Testimony.

Have you ever personally asked the Big Man himself. I have. It's called prayer. A very real thing. It also takes faith, which is NOT blind acceptance. I've never blindly accepted anything in my life. One thing I can't stand is being told to accept it without knowing of myself. I've done my own soul-searching, I've done my homework, and I know of myself the truth. That is not something anyone can take away from me. So don't try.

And you picked the mormon faith. I'm sorry but thats like going shopping for cars, doing your homework, and then buying a pinto.

I'm not crazy, and I'm not hearing those "voices" in my head.

That's not how God communicates.

"For I will tell you in your hearts and in your minds, your thoughts and feelings." He answers throught primarily thoughts and feelings. It's called Testimony.

How convenient. "What I think and feel must be God because I really, really, really want it to be God. It can't possibly be just me making things up."

We don't have to decipher what God says, for He has said it in His scriptures. He's said it himself. Pretty good source on His opinion would be Him, wouldn't it?

Well when you find him; let me know. I want a couple answers.....

So someone happens to be Mormorn. Lay off, this is pathetic.

I'm not crazy, and I'm not hearing those "voices" in my head.

That's not how God communicates.

"For I will tell you in your hearts and in your minds, your thoughts and feelings." He answers throught primarily thoughts and feelings. It's called Testimony.I hear voices actually, they have the voice of my friends and they say to me all the time they hate me. Maybe I should write then down in a book and start a new religion of hate? Well nothing new about that concept though.

So God actually talked to you? Ummm... shouldn't you go see your psychiatrist? *backs away slowly* ;)
Here's what I don't get:

Our modern societies typically assume that a grown adult who is believes they can speak to Elvis is crazy. However, a grown adult who thinks they can speak to an all powerful patriarch who lives in the sky...that person is called "pious."

I mean, with the Elvis-talker, at least it is possible for us to establish that Elvis did exist at some point. The God-talker can't even establish that God has EVER existed, let alone that God currently exists and wants to talk with some shmuck who's worried about the homos.

"One moment I realised I was God, I was praying and suddenly it came to me that I was talking to myself." - Oscar Welles.

And you picked the mormon faith. I'm sorry but thats like going shopping for cars, doing your homework, and then buying a pinto.

You get a cookie for that apt analogy. I mean, really, magical underwear and some dude in the US who just happens to lose what an angel was to have given him (There's that convenience again: "Where are these devine tablets? Umm, I kind lost them. Oops!"), not to mention the false claims that Native Americans are descendants of Hebrews.

Here's what I don't get:

Our modern societies typically assume that a grown adult who is believes they can speak to Elvis is crazy. However, a grown adult who thinks they can speak to an all powerful patriarch who lives in the sky...that person is called "pious."

I mean, with the Elvis-talker, at least it is possible for us to establish that Elvis did exist at some point. The God-talker can't even establish that God has EVER existed, let alone that God currently exists and wants to talk with some shmuck who's worried about the homos.Profound.

The sin of Sodom was inhospitality. I'm an atheist, and even I know that. Come now, are you a puppet troll or something?

Yeah, right. What's the reference O well read atheist.

You get a cookie for that apt analogy. I mean, really, magical underwear and some dude in the US who just happens to lose what an angel was to have given him (There's that convenience again: "Where are these devine tablets? Umm, I kind lost them. Oops!"), not to mention the false claims that Native Americans are descendants of Hebrews.

*Takes that cookie and heads off to find out what the delorean of religion is.*

I have to leave now. This has gone from debate to ridicule. Not one rational (or as you would all call it "insane") thing has been said. For those of you who have given good debate, and been courteous, thank you.

Yeah, right. What's the reference O well read atheist.<snip>
And homosexuality is mentioned where in that?

Profound.
Well honestly, I really think it's batty.

I mean, if Elvis really is able to speak to people from beyond the grave, then maybe he would get a kick out of chatting with some human fans. But GOD?! These people claim that God is the ruler and Creator of all reality, yet they also think that he's going to want to spend his time answering the self-centered demands of every human who wants to improve his golf swing or pass an exam.

Picture it: God, the Creator, sits upon His great throne in the sky. Suddenly, His voicemail beeps...

"God? It's me, Bill Johnson. I think the new guy at work might be a fag. I really think fags are icky, don't you? Yeah, I know you think they are icky, God. You're a man's man, and you don't go for any of that icky gay stuff. Homos are so gross. Except the hot chick homos, those ones are awesome. Anyway, my kid needs braces, so could you make me win the lottery? Thanks, I owe ya one.

PS: Could you smite that jackass who made the gay cowboy movie? Fags are gross. Thanks."

PS: Could you smite that jackass who made the gay cowboy movie? Fags are gross. Thanks."

Amen.

Amen.
Gotta love that "sanctity" of human life stuff...such glorious bullshit...

Gotta love that "sanctity" of human life stuff...such glorious bullshit...
Are you somehow forging understanding? I'm just curious as to what you are trying to actually accomplish here.

You know, I look at my first post, and this thread has gone completely of target.

There's no longer a method to the madness.

Are you somehow forging understanding? I'm just curious as to what you are trying to actually accomplish here.
Um, if I wanted to accomplish something I wouldn't be on an internet forum.

As far as the inhouse fighting in the Judeo-Christian world over homosexuality, gay marriage, and such; in that realm we're split down the middle between Nature vs. Nurture. We ultimately are divided over whether they are born that way or not.

As far as our fighting goes in the Judeo-Christian world, it doesn't matter which it is.

When God put us on this planet, we were given power and dominion over nature. Including ourselves. We are to become masters of our own bodies and passions, not their slaves.

If they're born with it, then they are supposed to reign it in, and control it- be the Master of themselves.

If it was learned, then they are to self-discipline themselves and over come it.

We are to be the master. We should not be subject. WE GOT THE POWER! Not POWER HAS US.

The Christian community should not be divided over this. It is clear doctrine that permeates all levels and sects of Judaism and Christianity.

We are the master of our fates, not the servant of circumstance.

Now, maybe we can re-focus.

Um, if I wanted to accomplish something I wouldn't be on an internet forum.
I'll say amen to that. ;)

Um, if I wanted to accomplish something I wouldn't be on an internet forum.
All you just posted was a clear show of effort on your part.
Yet, it was all for nothing. As if nothing can ever be accomplished on an internet forum.

All you just posted was a clear show of effort on your part.
Yet, it was all for nothing. As if nothing can ever be accomplished on an internet forum.
"Effort"? Well, I guess it is possible that I burned like .3 calories moving my fingers enough to type. Whew, exhausting!

And after all that strenuous effort, now I'm hit with the horrible realization that Mariehamn doesn't feel that I contributed enough to this internet thread! *Sigh* My mighty heart is breaking...

The sin of Sodom was inhospitality. I'm an atheist, and even I know that. Come now, are you a puppet troll or something?

Yeah, right. What's the reference O well read atheist.

And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous...

And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.

Not even ten. When Lot left, there were none.

And the rest of the story? Lot's neighbors noticed that Lot had some VIP's visiting. They came around asking to KNOW them... that is, to be introduced to them, not to sleep with them, as the text has been twisted around to infer. Lot didn't want to be bothered, so he said to his neighbors "If you go away and leave me alone, I will give you my virgin daughters to rape."

HELL of a swell guy, that Lot. I would certainly hold HIM up as an example of righteousness.

Further, the reasons given that the Sodomites were considered evil was that they were greedy and inhospitable.

HELL of a swell guy, that Lot. I would certainly hold HIM up as an example of righteousness.
Yeah, and what a swell God they've got, too! God kills an entire city full of people, but spares the guy who then gets drunk and molests his little girls. Plus, the story is then twisted so that those little Lolitas "seduced" their drunken father, adding a healthy dose of blame-the-victim on top of the child molestation. Charming.

Now, maybe we can re-focus.

So... you want everyone just to say "Oh, right! What was I thinking? THIS guy has it all sorted out!"

Sorry. Not going to happen.

Where did you think this discussion was going to head, anyway?

Now, maybe we can re-focus.

I'm sorry friend but for that to be relevant you must first show that homosexuality is wrong and should be mentally suppressed. The Doctor Laura quote that I showed you listed a variety of other commands that are given in the same chapter as the verse condemning homosexuality so unless you support those then you can't criticise homosexuals.

Yeah, and what a swell God they've got, too! God kills an entire city full of people, but spares the guy who then gets drunk and molests his little girls. Plus, the story is then twisted so that those little Lolitas "seduced" their drunken father, adding a healthy dose of blame-the-victim on top of the child molestation. Charming.
Of course, he was doing it for righteous reasons... thus God forgave him, even though he did commit sins, right? "The end justifies the means" is a central tenet of the Bible, so it would appear...

Of course, he was doing it for righteous reasons... thus God forgave him, even though he did commit sins, right? "The end justifies the means" is a central tenet of the Bible, so it would appear...
Frankly, I'm not inclined to worship somebody who's in the business of murdering consenting gay adults while rewarding child molestors. If Christians want to cheer on that kind of thing then that's their business, but it sure puts a spin on the whole "family values" line...

Now, maybe we can re-focus.

I don't think you're going to get much of a response, as far as specific church doctrine theology goes, in this forum. The Christians here (meaning the Christians I've seen that come to NSG) that DO want to allow same sex marriages are seemingly to be mostly non-church-attending or non-member Christians, and aren't likely to be members of a church that has taught them a doctrine that they can share with us to explain 'why' they think it's okay to practice same-sex marriages inside of their Christian church.

Some of the Episcopalian Churches in America obviously thinks it's okay because they have the now infamous Gay Bishop, but as far as I know they haven't released a theological catechism or apologetic mission statement to explain their doctrine reasoning for it. And that it as brought division to the Episcopalian churches in the states and the Anglican Churches worldwide, so whatever the teaching/rationale is, it isn’t going to be found in simply looking up the Anglican ‘mission statement’ nor their ‘what we believe’ FAQ’s.

The Christian community should not be divided over this. It is clear doctrine that permeates all levels and sects of Judaism and Christianity.



Hm maybe they wouldnt be so divided over stuff if they stopped faffing around and just all went back to being Catholics. Read 1 corinthians 12.

I don't have that problem with Genesis. Unlike most Christians, we believe that through its many years, the Bible has been mistranslated, changed on purpose, and has lost many parts. Lot wasn't a pimp. KNOW in the Old Testament is an archaic way of saying "have sex with"

Our Prophet's God-directed corrections change that. The whole story reads instead


But the men of Sodom becoming sinners, and exceedingly wicked before the Lord, the Lord was angry with them......

.....And the angel of the Lord said unto Abraham, The Lord said unto us, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will destroy them....

...And Abraham drew near to Sodom, and said unto the Lord, calling upon his name, saying, Wilt thou destroy the righteous with the wicked? Wilt thou not spare them?
Peradventure there may be fifty righteous within the city, wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that may be therein?
O may that be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked; and that the righteous should be as the wicked.
O God, may that be far from thee, for shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
And the Lord said unto Abraham, If thou findest in Sodom, fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
And Abraham answered and said, Behold, now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which is able to destroy the city, and lay all the people in dust and ashes;
Will the Lord spare them peradventure there lack five of the fifty righteous; wilt thou destroy all the city for their wickedness, if I find there forty and five righteous?
And he said, I will not destroy, but spare them.
And he spake unto him again, and said, Peradventure there should be forty found there?
And he said, I will not destroy it for forty's sake.
And he said again unto the Lord, O, let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there?
And he said, I will not destroy them if thou shalt find thirty there.
And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord; wilt thou destroy them if peradventure there shall twenty be found there?
And he said, I will not destroy them for twenty's sake.
And Abraham said unto the Lord, O, let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once, peradventure ten shall be found there?
And the Lord said, I will not destroy them for ten's sake. And the Lord ceased speaking with Abraham....

...And it came to pass, that there came three angels to Sodom in the evening; and Lot sat in the door of his house, in the city of Sodom.
And Lot, seeing the angels, rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways.
And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
But before they lay down to rest, the men of the city of Sodom compassed the house round, even men which were both old and young, even the people from every quarter;
And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in unto thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. ("know" in the Old Testament is an old archaic way of saying "have sex with")

And Lot went out of the door, unto them, and shut the door after him, and said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
And they said unto him, Stand back. And they were angry with him.
And they said among themselves, This one man came in to sojourn among us, and he will needs now make himself to be a judge; now we will deal worse with him than with them.
Wherefore they said unto the man, We will have the men, and thy daughters also; and we will do with them as seemeth us good.

Now this was after the wickedness of Sodom.

And Lot said, Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, plead with my brethren that I may not bring them out unto you; and ye shall not do unto them as seemeth good in your eyes;
For God will not justify his servant in this thing; wherefore, let me plead with my brethren, this once only, that unto these men ye do nothing, that they may have peace in my house; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
And they were angry with Lot and came near to break the door, but the angels of God, which were holy men, put forth their hand and pulled Lot into the house unto them, and shut the door.
And they smote the men with blindness, both small and great, that they could not come at the door.
And they were angry, so that they wearied themselves to find the door, and could not find it.
And these holy men said unto Lot, Hast thou any here besides thy sons-in-law, and thy son's sons and thy daughters?
And they commanded Lot, saying, Whatsoever thou hast in the city, thou shalt bring out of this place, for we will destroy this place;
Because the cry of them is waxen great, and their abominations have come up before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.
And Lot went out and spake unto his sons-in-law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get ye out of this place, for the Lord will destroy this city.
But he seemed as one that mocked, unto his sons-in-law.
And when the morning came, the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters which are here, lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
And while he lingered the angels laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto them; and they brought them forth, and set them down without the city.
And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad that they said unto them, Escape for your lives; look not behind you, neither stay you in all the plain; escape to the mountain lest you be consumed.
And Lot said unto one of them, Oh, not so my Lord! behold now, thy servant has found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy which thou hast showed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil overtake me, and I die.
Behold now, here is another city, and this is near to flee unto and it is a little one; oh, let me escape thither, and may the Lord not destroy it, and my soul shall live.
And the angel said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken; haste thee, escape thither, for I cannot do anything until thou be come thither.
And the name of the city was called Zoar. Therefore the sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
And the Lord did not destroy Sodom until Lot had entered into Zoar.
And then, when Lot had entered into Zoar, the Lord rained upon Sodom, and upon Gomorrah; for the angels called upon the name of the Lord for brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.
And thus they overthrew those cities and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
But it came to pass, when Lot fled, his wife looked back from behind him, and became a pillar of salt.
And Abraham got up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord; and he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and behold, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.
And it came to pass, when God had destroyed the cities of the plain, that God spake unto Abraham, saying, I have remembered Lot, and sent him out of the midst of the overthrow, that thy brother might not be destroyed, when I overthrew the city in the which thy brother Lot dwelt.


By the way, Sodom is where we get the term "sodomy" from.

Our Prophet's God-directed corrections

Which have been proved wrong. (http://go.fark.com/cgi/fark/go.pl?IDLink=1916177&location=http%3A%2F%2Fktla.trb.com%2Fnews%2Fla-me-mormon16feb16%2C0%2C680332.story%3Fcoll%3Dktla-news-1)

Frankly, I'm not inclined to worship somebody who's in the business of murdering consenting gay adults while rewarding child molestors. If Christians want to cheer on that kind of thing then that's their business, but it sure puts a spin on the whole "family values" line...


Hey, I hate child molesters. Every last one of 'em should be shot. I'm not making a 'rational' case for that. I really mean it.
:sniper: :mp5: :gundge: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

Yes. I think my translation of this material still stands.

Hey, I hate child molesters. Every last one of 'em should be shot. I'm not making a 'rational' case for that. I really mean it.

Ok, so then how is Lot righteous?

Ok, so then how is Lot righteous?

Our Prophet's God-directed correction of the Bible clears that up, read the above posted ORIGINAL story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Lot never offered to pimp his daughters. That is a blatant error in the Bible. My faith holds that the Bible, while mostly true, has many errors that have accumulated over time. Most of them are in Genesis.

The errors are the result of faulty translation, deviant changes, and misinterperetations.

Well, see, here's the thing:

People who are intelligent, confident, well-adjusted, and honorable don't give a flying fuck if a pair of consenting same-sex adults want to get jiggy with each other.

However, there are a lot of ignorant, self-loathing, superstitious, and generally disgusting humanoids out there. For those people, control of other people's genitals is extremely important. Particularly for the subclass of insecure male humanoids who fear and hate anything that threatens male gender dominion (such as men taking a "female" role in sex via homosexual penetrative sex acts).

There are many people who have lousy sex lives, who hate their bodies, who subscribe to repressive and bizarre sex roles, or who simply have been taught to be afraid of sex parts and sex acts. Or all of the above. For these individuals, homosexuality is terrifying and threatening.

This is the problem with this debate. Those who dont care about homosexuality just keep saying that all the people who dont care about homosexuality are rational and sensable and those who do are irrational and ignorent. It doenst help the debate. Its just name calling

Our Prophet's God-directed correction of the Bible clears that up, read the above posted ORIGINAL story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

And how do you prove that your prophet was really god directed? The answer is you can't you take it on faith. So don't go around making claims saying something is the original unless you can prove it.

And how do you prove that your prophet was really god directed? The answer is you can't you take it on faith. So don't go around making claims saying something is the original unless you can prove it.

Fair enough. But that's what I believe. It just helps in understanding my point of view.

This is the way the first bible I can lay my hands on in my house reads:

When the two angels came to Sodom that evening, Lot was sitting at the city gate. As soon as he saw them, he got up and went to meet them. He bowed down before them and said "Sirs, I am here to serve you. Please come to my house...

But they answered, "No, we will spend the night here in the square."

He kept on urging them and finally they went with him to his house...

Before the guests went to bed the men of Sodom surrounded the house... they called out to Lot and asked "Where are the men who came to stay with you tonight? Bring them out to us!" The men of Sodom wanted to know them. (Know means "get to know", "be introduced to" etc. The supposedly archaic meaning of "to have sex with" was a mistranslation to begin with)

Lot went outside and closed the door behind him. He said to them "Friends, I beg you... Look, I have two daughters who are still virgins. Let me bring them out to you and you can do whatever you want with them."




Nothing in this story says to me that Lot was a good guy. He took in some visitors that he KNEW to be important, he refused to introduce them to his neighbors, and he pimped out his daughters.

American drugs in Egptian mummies. The chances of one Hebrew stepping foot on American soil is probable, if even if highly improbable. Not all Hebrews left with Moses and many came back to Egypt during famine. Everything has a mustard seed of truth to it.

http://www.colostate.edu/Dept/Entomology/courses/en570/papers_2000/wells.html

...And it came to pass, that there came three angels to Sodom in the evening; and Lot sat in the door of his house, in the city of Sodom.
And Lot, seeing the angels, rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways.
And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
But before they lay down to rest, the men of the city of Sodom compassed the house round, even men which were both old and young, even the people from every quarter;
And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in unto thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. ("know" in the Old Testament is an old archaic way of saying "have sex with")

And Lot went out of the door, unto them, and shut the door after him, and said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
And they said unto him, Stand back. And they were angry with him.
And they said among themselves, This one man came in to sojourn among us, and he will needs now make himself to be a judge; now we will deal worse with him than with them.
Wherefore they said unto the man, We will have the men, and thy daughters also; and we will do with them as seemeth us good.

Now this was after the wickedness of Sodom.

And Lot said, Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, plead with my brethren that I may not bring them out unto you; and ye shall not do unto them as seemeth good in your eyes;
For God will not justify his servant in this thing; wherefore, let me plead with my brethren, this once only, that unto these men ye do nothing, that they may have peace in my house; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.



Your version which, now I see, is in direct opposition on that particular point, has completely re-written Lot. If Lot can be so drastically changed, how can any of the rest of the story be considered viable? How can one use it to justify prejudice if the story itself is so significantly altered? How can one claim to know that either version is actually what "God" intended?

Could somebody give me the chapter and verse for the story of Lot and Sodom please, I'd like to look it up myself.

Could somebody give me the chapter and verse for the story of Lot and Sodom please, I'd like to look it up myself.

Genesis, chapters 18 and 19.

Genesis, chapters 18 and 19.

Thanks.:)

In response to accusations I have been recieving that I am hateful, let me say this.


I don't hate anybody. People drive me crazy, I think some things are wrong, I may not particularly like you, but , at the end of the day, I don't hate.

Just because I think homosexuality is wrong, does not mean I think gay people are horrible and awful and no good dirt-bags. Nor does it make me horrible or rotten either.

My Savior taught that we should love everyone, even though their decisions may be bad. We are all imperfect. I would never propose we spit on gays, stone them, kill them, or persecute them. But that doesn't mean I have to accept their lifestyle either.

And I've been taught to love my enemies, and do good to them that hate you and despitefully use you. That doesn't mean I have to agree with you, or cowtow to your opinions.

I don't hate anybody, and, when you leave politics, religion, and sexual preference, I get along with most people. I know many people who disagree who would side with you in the opposition, who are very good friends of mine.

But I have my right to stand up for my beliefs, and yes, to advance it.

Butut make no mistake, I am not out to "get" anyone.

Please understand that. You and I may disagree, and even fight about it. But I don't hate you or think you're bad. Just wrong. But that's no excuse to hate.

We all need to remember that we are all basically good.:)

As far as the inhouse fighting in the Judeo-Christian world over homosexuality, gay marriage, and such; in that realm we're split down the middle between Nature vs. Nurture. We ultimately are divided over whether they are born that way or not.

As far as our fighting goes in the Judeo-Christian world, it doesn't matter which it is.

When God put us on this planet, we were given power and dominion over nature. Including ourselves. We are to become masters of our own bodies and passions, not their slaves.

If they're born with it, then they are supposed to reign it in, and control it- be the Master of themselves.

If it was learned, then they are to self-discipline themselves and over come it.

We are to be the master. We should not be subject. WE GOT THE POWER! Not POWER HAS US.

The Christian community should not be divided over this. It is clear doctrine that permeates all levels and sects of Judaism and Christianity.

We are the master of our fates, not the servant of circumstance.
I am so sick of this argument that I could barf!

Look ... if indeed Jesus was given to us as an example, since he was tempted in all the same ways as we are, yet was without transgression, then the key issue is to determine what Jesus would do, right???

The Jesus portrayed in the Bible had far more problems with the religious leaders of his day than he ever did with prostitutes and other "sinners." He was kind and compassionate and led by example and indirection ( such as the fables and stories he used ). Go and do thou likewise!

I am so sick of this argument that I could barf!

Look ... if indeed Jesus was given to us as an example, since he was tempted in all the same ways as we are, yet was without transgression, then the key issue is to determine what Jesus would do, right???

The Jesus portrayed in the Bible had far more problems with the religious leaders of his day than he ever did with prostitutes and other "sinners." He was kind and compassionate and led by example and indirection ( such as the fables and stories he used ). Go and do thou likewise!


Most certainly true. If only everyone could see that clearly. If only the world were percieved that starkly in black and white.

Well spoken, though.

I've just never understood Christians and Jews who support it, when their stance is contrary to their beliefs, and if it's not, then they really don't espouse Judaism or Christianity, at least, not in whole.

Good to know that you are Jesus Christ himself and therefore know what "Christianity in whole" would be.

Meanwhile, do you equally espouse genocide and slavery? You can't truly espouse Judaism or Christianity, at least not in whole, if you do not agree with these things. It's right there in the Bible. God says you should do it.

Please understand that. You and I may disagree, and even fight about it. But I don't hate you or think you're bad. Just wrong. But that's no excuse to hate.

You don't leave room for disagreement when you say, "If you don't agree with me, you aren't really Christian," now do you?

It stems down to God says it's wrong. Seems lame to those who don't belive in God, or aren't Christian, but that's what we believe.

I don't believe that God said homosexuality is wrong any more than I believe that God said blue eyes were wrong, doesn't keep me from believing in the teachings of Christ.

He states it is unnatural affection (unnatural in the sense it's not normal).

You may believe that, but disbelieving it does not keep one from following Christ's message.

There is a good chance that the Levitical law was mistranslated, or never came from God anyways - unless of course you think God is cool with slavery too.

He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah over this.'

No, the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were inhospitality and a wish to rape someone, not homosexuality.

No. But when Christians are divided on this, I don't know where they're getting their support, as far a faith is concerned.

From God, where we get all of our support.

Have you ever personally asked the Big Man himself. I have. It's called prayer. A very real thing. It also takes faith, which is NOT blind acceptance. I've never blindly accepted anything in my life. One thing I can't stand is being told to accept it without knowing of myself. I've done my own soul-searching, I've done my homework, and I know of myself the truth. That is not something anyone can take away from me. So don't try.

And I've done the same thing and come to the opposite conclusion. How do we know which of us is correct?

faith, which is NOT blind acceptance

I thought faith was blind acceptance -- that's the entire point. You believe in something despite lack of tangible proof of its existence.

I know not the meaning of all things, for faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of all things. But I know that God loves His children.

Honestly, I didn't understand half of what was up there. Let me go (re)read those scriptures for myself and I'll get back to you.

I'm no Baptist. I don't have the Bible memorized backwards and frontwards.

You don't have to memorize it to have read and understood it. How can you claim to have "done your homework" if you obviously haven't even read the entirety of the Scriptures?

Most certainly true. If only everyone could see that clearly. If only the world were percieved that starkly in black and white.

Well spoken, though.
Thank you. Sometimes i get it right, although you'd never think so if you listen to my many detractors on here. :D

You know, I look at my first post, and this thread has gone completely of target.

There's no longer a method to the madness.

There never was a "method" since you started off by saying, "I'm right! I'm right! Nobdoy can argue with me! Nanny nanny boo boo!"

There never was a "method" since you started off by saying, "I'm right! I'm right! Nobdoy can argue with me! Nanny nanny boo boo!"
ROFLMFAO!!!!! :D

I don't think you're going to get much of a response, as far as specific church doctrine theology goes, in this forum. The Christians here (meaning the Christians I've seen that come to NSG) that DO want to allow same sex marriages are seemingly to be mostly non-church-attending or non-member Christians, and aren't likely to be members of a church that has taught them a doctrine that they can share with us to explain 'why' they think it's okay to practice same-sex marriages inside of their Christian church.

Do religious beliefs have to be made up by someone else to be valid? Does some other human being, just as fallible as I, have to tell me what to believe for me to believe something?

You want to know why I think same-sex marriages are fine? Because I believe in a God that is love, a God that holds love to be above all else, a God that wishes human beings to find love, in all it's various forms. And I know that homosexuality is not a chosen trait any more than heterosexuality, bisexuality, blue eyes, or black hair. Thus, if I am correct that God wants humans to find love, God would want homosexuals to find love - and they are only going to find romantic love with and pledge their lives to a member of the same sex.

Our Prophet's God-directed correction of the Bible clears that up, read the above posted ORIGINAL story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Lot never offered to pimp his daughters. That is a blatant error in the Bible. My faith holds that the Bible, while mostly true, has many errors that have accumulated over time. Most of them are in Genesis.

The errors are the result of faulty translation, deviant changes, and misinterperetations.

Wait, there was faulty translation, but a single line in Leviticus, surrounded by laws regulating the treatment of slaves and the murder of rape victims, was no doubt translated exactly right.....

As far as the inhouse fighting in the Judeo-Christian world over homosexuality, gay marriage, and such; in that realm we're split down the middle between Nature vs. Nurture. We ultimately are divided over whether they are born that way or not.

As far as our fighting goes in the Judeo-Christian world, it doesn't matter which it is.

When God put us on this planet, we were given power and dominion over nature. Including ourselves. We are to become masters of our own bodies and passions, not their slaves.

If they're born with it, then they are supposed to reign it in, and control it- be the Master of themselves.

If it was learned, then they are to self-discipline themselves and over come it.

We are to be the master. We should not be subject. WE GOT THE POWER! Not POWER HAS US.

The Christian community should not be divided over this. It is clear doctrine that permeates all levels and sects of Judaism and Christianity.

We are the master of our fates, not the servant of circumstance.


Oh, but it is, Niamanl, because the whole concept of self-discipline depends on the concept of naturality.

Take for instance the sin of gluttony. Gluttony is in essence the lack of self-discipline with respect to food. Fair enough, but how do we know whether any specific instance is or is not an instance of gluttony? Usually, we know it through whether the act is natural or not. Thus, wolfing down a package of Klondike Bars might not be considered gluttonous if you are starving, because it seems natural for a starving man to eat large quantities of any food he can, so as to bring about the natural state of satiation. Wolfing down a package of Klondike Bars as part of your normal afternoon meal, however, is gluttonous, because it is not natural for a person to consume so many empty calories in one sitting, and decidely against the purpose with which your body was designed to pound down so much sugar and fat in one sitting.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, is precisely in the same boat. We determine whether or not it is a sin precisely on the basis of whether or not it is natural; another way of saying whether it is an act compatible with virtue or vicious in nature. I can see no reason why homosexuality is incompatible with virtue, as I know quite a few people whom are very virtuous people who just happen to be homosexual. The homosexuality doesn't seem to impede their virtue, and their health does not suffer in the same way an intemperate or a gluttonous person would. As such, I can't see any reason to call homosexuality sinful or vicious in nature.

Do religious beliefs have to be made up by someone else to be valid? Does some other human being, just as fallible as I, have to tell me what to believe for me to believe something?

It has to be 'made up,' by someone else to be valid Christianity, yes it does. It needs to be 'made up' by Christ and the followers of Christ that the holy Spirit chose to spread the Good News. So far as doctrine outside of scripture is concerned, we are to test the spirits.

1 John 4 1-6
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

*bolding by me, to show the answer to your question.

You want to know why I think same-sex marriages are fine? Because I believe in a God that is love, a God that holds love to be above all else, a God that wishes human beings to find love, in all it's various forms. And I know that homosexuality is not a chosen trait any more than heterosexuality, bisexuality, blue eyes, or black hair. Thus, if I am correct that God wants humans to find love, God would want homosexuals to find love - and they are only going to find romantic love with and pledge their lives to a member of the same sex.


Jude 1 5-11
Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

It seems as if you overstated your case about it being merely inhospitality. Although I don’t favor the Sodom and Gomorrah example as a quality argument against homosexuality, it is clear that the new testament book of Jude does warn against accepting a pro-homosexual doctrine in our churches. As is shown next…

Jude 1 12-16
These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

God created Adam, Eve and Steve, Steve was a goat.

As far as the inhouse fighting in the Judeo-Christian world over homosexuality, gay marriage, and such; in that realm we're split down the middle between Nature vs. Nurture. We ultimately are divided over whether they are born that way or not.

As far as our fighting goes in the Judeo-Christian world, it doesn't matter which it is.

When God put us on this planet, we were given power and dominion over nature. Including ourselves. We are to become masters of our own bodies and passions, not their slaves.

If they're born with it, then they are supposed to reign it in, and control it- be the Master of themselves.

If it was learned, then they are to self-discipline themselves and over come it.

We are to be the master. We should not be subject. WE GOT THE POWER! Not POWER HAS US.

The Christian community should not be divided over this. It is clear doctrine that permeates all levels and sects of Judaism and Christianity.

We are the master of our fates, not the servant of circumstance.
But it does matter to some people; and, therefore, it matters.